Jenny Diski
October 30, 2009 10:44 AM Subscribe
This post was deleted for the following reason: We've had posts about both Polanski's recent developments and Diski's LRB stuff relatively recently, and this is shaping up to be an ugly rehash of the Polanski stuff and is getting flagged to hell. -- cortex
But Natalie Portman thinks he's an okay guy. It's confusing.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:58 AM on October 30, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:58 AM on October 30, 2009 [2 favorites]
I'm with the "if he didn't want to spend his last years in prison, maybe he should have accepted his punishment when he was sentenced, or, better yet, not raped a 13-year-old" crowd.
posted by Caduceus at 11:02 AM on October 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Caduceus at 11:02 AM on October 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
I was also in the "what's the big deal" camp till I read her testimony to the police (?) where she recounts what actually took place. I think a lot of people assume he didn't actually rape her, that it was consensual sex between an adult and a minor. (Though, i'm not sure that's really any better.) A lot of reports on this gloss over the various facts.
The dude makes some "pretty good" movies, but "we'll let this rape slide" movies? I'm not so sure.
posted by chunking express at 11:05 AM on October 30, 2009
The dude makes some "pretty good" movies, but "we'll let this rape slide" movies? I'm not so sure.
posted by chunking express at 11:05 AM on October 30, 2009
The ironic thing is that cultural norms have changed so much, he's much more likely to serve a longer sentence now then he was in the 1970's. In fact, if the judge had gone off the reservation, couldn't he have appealed and gotten it back to what he had worked out with the prosecutor?
posted by delmoi at 11:06 AM on October 30, 2009
posted by delmoi at 11:06 AM on October 30, 2009
That's a great and moving piece by one of Metafilter's formerly own. Having got my fury at Polanski-apologism off my chest in other threads, I now find myself genuinely confused by it. OK, so Gore Vidal's a provocateur who may be losing his mind; certain actors and actresses (although not Natalie Portman) may just be dim bulbs. But Paul Auster, Tilda Swinton, Portman... These people obviously don't really think rape is OK, surely, and they wouldn't put their names to petitions in total ignorance of the facts. This leaves a) that they've been duped by the claim that Polanski was primarily the victim of vast judicial malfeasance, b) that genius nullifies all criminal guilt, or c) some kind of icy self-interest in terms of not getting on the wrong side of the French cinematic establishment or something. Has anyone seen a detailed explanation of their position by one of these more surprising supporters of Polanski? I'd love to read it.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 11:08 AM on October 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 11:08 AM on October 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
What a powerful post. I'm stunned by and honor the writer's honesty and feel seared by her account. This is really a classic sexual assault story, as is the Polanski case, featuring a victim too innocent to realize the depth of the violation, and a rapist convincing themselves that the victim enjoyed his/her attentions. I think it is a beautiful irony that Polanski may have earned himself a more appropriate punishment by running away from his sentencing.
posted by bearwife at 11:10 AM on October 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by bearwife at 11:10 AM on October 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
I have no sympathy, in part because he never seems to have shown any remorse.
And the fact that Polaski costumes sound like they're going to be popular this year fills me with a real anger. There are a lot of women like this one, going around life, not making a big fuss about the fact that they were raped. You can't tell it just to look at somebody. Many don't especially want to talk about it. So you don't know who has been raped. And you don't know how they're going to feel when you show up with a champagne in one hand and pills in the other. And it just doesn't fucking seem worth it to me, because, at the very best, the message it sends it "rape is so abstract a concept to me that I find the act itself to be funny in some weird, ironic way."
It's not abstract for other people, and they may not catch your irony. All they might get is that you think rape is funny.
Sorry to go on about this, but I just talked with somebody who is dating somebody who is going as Polanski, including having a fake woman attached to his groin, and it's sort of setting me off right now.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:11 AM on October 30, 2009 [6 favorites]
And the fact that Polaski costumes sound like they're going to be popular this year fills me with a real anger. There are a lot of women like this one, going around life, not making a big fuss about the fact that they were raped. You can't tell it just to look at somebody. Many don't especially want to talk about it. So you don't know who has been raped. And you don't know how they're going to feel when you show up with a champagne in one hand and pills in the other. And it just doesn't fucking seem worth it to me, because, at the very best, the message it sends it "rape is so abstract a concept to me that I find the act itself to be funny in some weird, ironic way."
It's not abstract for other people, and they may not catch your irony. All they might get is that you think rape is funny.
Sorry to go on about this, but I just talked with somebody who is dating somebody who is going as Polanski, including having a fake woman attached to his groin, and it's sort of setting me off right now.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:11 AM on October 30, 2009 [6 favorites]
Has anyone seen a detailed explanation of their position by one of these more surprising supporters of Polanski?
Money can change minds. They probably just got points on the back end.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:16 AM on October 30, 2009
Money can change minds. They probably just got points on the back end.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:16 AM on October 30, 2009
Indeed, an older, experienced male friend told me only a few years later that it was impossible to rape a woman: if penetration occurred she was willing.?!?!?
I'm sorry for what happened to her, but why is it here?Because it's interesting?
posted by delmoi at 11:18 AM on October 30, 2009
that article was pretty much more about the writer's own horrible experience with being sexually assaulted than it was about Polanski and I honestly didn't want to read all of it. I'm sorry for what happened to her, but why is it here?
I think it makes sense if you consider the statement she is reacting to:
He risks extradition to the United States for an episode that happened years ago and whose principal plaintiff repeatedly and emphatically declares she has put it behind her and abandoned any wish for legal proceedings.
Seventy-six years old, a survivor of Nazism and of Stalinist persecutions in Poland, Roman Polanski risks spending the rest of his life in jail for deeds which would be beyond the statute of limitations in Europe.
The people who are trying to garner sympathy for Polanski are trying to use the fact that the crime happened a long time ago and that many people don't really know the details of the case to their advantage Words like episode, deeds, and principal plaintiff are purposely used as euphemisms to down-play the fact that he pleaded guilty to raping a 13-year-old and then fled the country. Diski's article is designed to emphasize the exact elements of the story that the statement is trying to hide, via a personal account of something similar that happened to her around the same age.
posted by burnmp3s at 11:19 AM on October 30, 2009
I think it makes sense if you consider the statement she is reacting to:
He risks extradition to the United States for an episode that happened years ago and whose principal plaintiff repeatedly and emphatically declares she has put it behind her and abandoned any wish for legal proceedings.
Seventy-six years old, a survivor of Nazism and of Stalinist persecutions in Poland, Roman Polanski risks spending the rest of his life in jail for deeds which would be beyond the statute of limitations in Europe.
The people who are trying to garner sympathy for Polanski are trying to use the fact that the crime happened a long time ago and that many people don't really know the details of the case to their advantage Words like episode, deeds, and principal plaintiff are purposely used as euphemisms to down-play the fact that he pleaded guilty to raping a 13-year-old and then fled the country. Diski's article is designed to emphasize the exact elements of the story that the statement is trying to hide, via a personal account of something similar that happened to her around the same age.
posted by burnmp3s at 11:19 AM on October 30, 2009
that it was consensual sex between an adult and a minor.
I won't go so far as to say there's no such thing as consensual sex between an adult and a minor, because I believe a lot of teens are more mature than they are given credit for, but there sure as fuck isn't any such thing as consensual sex between a 13-year-old and a 45-year-old famous director. The power differential is too great, and 13 is too much minor, even if the adult was a normal person.
posted by Caduceus at 11:21 AM on October 30, 2009
I won't go so far as to say there's no such thing as consensual sex between an adult and a minor, because I believe a lot of teens are more mature than they are given credit for, but there sure as fuck isn't any such thing as consensual sex between a 13-year-old and a 45-year-old famous director. The power differential is too great, and 13 is too much minor, even if the adult was a normal person.
posted by Caduceus at 11:21 AM on October 30, 2009
Even if it was beyond the statute of limitations in the U.S, it wouldn't matter. That only applies to starting new legal proceedings. You can't skip out on sentencing, and then be like "hey, statute of limitations!"
posted by delmoi at 11:22 AM on October 30, 2009
posted by delmoi at 11:22 AM on October 30, 2009
but there sure as fuck isn't any such thing as consensual sex between a 13-year-old and a 45-year-old famous director. The power differential is too great, and 13 is too much minor, even if the adult was a normal person.
Well, either way the situation here was non-consensual.
posted by delmoi at 11:23 AM on October 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
Well, either way the situation here was non-consensual.
posted by delmoi at 11:23 AM on October 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
Bit of confusion to clear up, isn't he going to be persecuted for charges of fleeing the country? and not the actual charges of rape?
posted by Lacking Subtlety at 11:27 AM on October 30, 2009
posted by Lacking Subtlety at 11:27 AM on October 30, 2009
That article was pretty much more about the writer's own horrible experience with being sexually assaulted than it was about Polanski and I honestly didn't want to read all of it. I'm sorry for what happened to her, but why is it here?
I think that the author is pointing out something prevalent in "date rape" and other rape where the victim knows the rapist. That the rapist is completely oblivious to the desires of the victim. They don't get that she doesn't want to have sex with him, is afraid of him, is in a situation where she has no choices. The rapist is deluded into thinking that it's a consentual encounter, even if he has to lock her in, drug her or otherwise exert force on her to get that "consent."
Polanski is a rapist who escaped his sentence. The sooner he serves it the better. All the other issues are noise.
Also, I have lost respect for the people who have signed that petition and for people who support Polanski.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 11:31 AM on October 30, 2009 [2 favorites]
I think that the author is pointing out something prevalent in "date rape" and other rape where the victim knows the rapist. That the rapist is completely oblivious to the desires of the victim. They don't get that she doesn't want to have sex with him, is afraid of him, is in a situation where she has no choices. The rapist is deluded into thinking that it's a consentual encounter, even if he has to lock her in, drug her or otherwise exert force on her to get that "consent."
Polanski is a rapist who escaped his sentence. The sooner he serves it the better. All the other issues are noise.
Also, I have lost respect for the people who have signed that petition and for people who support Polanski.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 11:31 AM on October 30, 2009 [2 favorites]
And the fact that Polaski costumes sound like they're going to be popular this year fills me with a real anger.
I think it's great, actually. That the man is now widely-enough known as the very embodiment of "scary child rapist" to be a recognizable Halloween costume? Perfect.
posted by rusty at 11:32 AM on October 30, 2009
I think it's great, actually. That the man is now widely-enough known as the very embodiment of "scary child rapist" to be a recognizable Halloween costume? Perfect.
posted by rusty at 11:32 AM on October 30, 2009
Men who rape women are bad.
Men who rape children are worse.
People who defend such men are cunts.
posted by notreally at 11:33 AM on October 30, 2009
Well, either way the situation here was non-consensual.
Yes, of course. I should have quoted more of that sentence, which was saying that some people apparently believe the sex between them was consensual, and I wanted to emphasize how ridiculous that idea was. There could never have been consensual sex in that situation. Whether she was physically forced or merely coerced by the man's power and fear of force, it's still rape and he still would deserve punishment.
posted by Caduceus at 11:36 AM on October 30, 2009
Yes, of course. I should have quoted more of that sentence, which was saying that some people apparently believe the sex between them was consensual, and I wanted to emphasize how ridiculous that idea was. There could never have been consensual sex in that situation. Whether she was physically forced or merely coerced by the man's power and fear of force, it's still rape and he still would deserve punishment.
posted by Caduceus at 11:36 AM on October 30, 2009
Bit of confusion to clear up, isn't he going to be persecuted for charges of fleeing the country? and not the actual charges of rape?
My understanding is that Polanski pleaded guilty to a lesser charge, then skipped out on his sentencing, so he's facing the original charge (which was supposed to be minimal, like 60 days in a psych insitution), plus whatever new charges for absconding.
posted by electroboy at 11:36 AM on October 30, 2009
My understanding is that Polanski pleaded guilty to a lesser charge, then skipped out on his sentencing, so he's facing the original charge (which was supposed to be minimal, like 60 days in a psych insitution), plus whatever new charges for absconding.
posted by electroboy at 11:36 AM on October 30, 2009
Sorry, he's facing the original sentencing, plus whatever new charges.
posted by electroboy at 11:39 AM on October 30, 2009
posted by electroboy at 11:39 AM on October 30, 2009
These people obviously don't really think rape is OK, surely, and they wouldn't put their names to petitions in total ignorance of the facts. This leaves a) that they've been duped by the claim that Polanski was primarily the victim of vast judicial malfeasance, b) that genius nullifies all criminal guilt, or c) some kind of icy self-interest in terms of not getting on the wrong side of the French cinematic establishment or something.
I think it is because Polanski is in their Monkeysphere, and the raped girl isn't. She is an "other" so not worth worrying about.
Yes, I linked to Cracked. The article is very insightful.
posted by Antidisestablishmentarianist at 11:42 AM on October 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
I think it is because Polanski is in their Monkeysphere, and the raped girl isn't. She is an "other" so not worth worrying about.
Yes, I linked to Cracked. The article is very insightful.
posted by Antidisestablishmentarianist at 11:42 AM on October 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
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