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March 1, 2010 6:44 PM Subscribe
Video games may not have invented the non-linear narrative, but they certainly perfected it. Starfeld is a fine flash game raising the gamut in this area while dealing with morality in deep space. Warning: Mature Dialog.
Via Rock Paper Shotgun, via Indie Games.
Via Rock Paper Shotgun, via Indie Games.
Yeah, uh, Fallout 3? Pefected the non-linear narrative? Now I will back slowly away.
posted by Justinian at 6:54 PM on March 1, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 6:54 PM on March 1, 2010 [5 favorites]
You know you can just link to the game without prepending the NOVA-like "throughout history, man has striven to perfect the non-linear narrative" nonsense.
posted by DU at 6:58 PM on March 1, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by DU at 6:58 PM on March 1, 2010 [5 favorites]
I thought I loved Mass Effect 2, but this is so much more to-the-point. Perfection.
posted by blahblahblah at 7:00 PM on March 1, 2010
posted by blahblahblah at 7:00 PM on March 1, 2010
mccarty.tim may not have invented the hyperbole...
posted by TwelveTwo at 7:01 PM on March 1, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by TwelveTwo at 7:01 PM on March 1, 2010 [5 favorites]
I was kind of wondeirng if this was intended as some kind of meta-comentary on Mass Effect.
I like that the actual "game" portion is very simplistic and boring, as it often is with games with lots of branching dialogue trees.
posted by Artw at 7:03 PM on March 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
I like that the actual "game" portion is very simplistic and boring, as it often is with games with lots of branching dialogue trees.
posted by Artw at 7:03 PM on March 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
I think I am missing the point here. I played through but I still don't get it.
posted by Justinian at 7:04 PM on March 1, 2010
posted by Justinian at 7:04 PM on March 1, 2010
I'm sure I've got a "meh" here somewhere in this bag of stock comments...
posted by chairface at 7:04 PM on March 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by chairface at 7:04 PM on March 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
To make the joke work, the "perfected" link should go here.
posted by blahblahblah at 7:06 PM on March 1, 2010
posted by blahblahblah at 7:06 PM on March 1, 2010
I was kind of wondeirng if this was intended as some kind of meta-comentary on Mass Effect.
BING BING BING
posted by Sebmojo at 7:15 PM on March 1, 2010
BING BING BING
posted by Sebmojo at 7:15 PM on March 1, 2010
If you enjoy nonlinear narratives, turn to page 78
If you make a snarky comment, turn to page 97.
pg 97
You are eaten by a grue.
posted by hellojed at 7:22 PM on March 1, 2010 [14 favorites]
If you make a snarky comment, turn to page 97.
pg 97
You are eaten by a grue.
posted by hellojed at 7:22 PM on March 1, 2010 [14 favorites]
I was going to say something about Heavy Rain, but you'd have to turn on your PS3 to understand what I was talking about.
posted by WolfDaddy at 7:22 PM on March 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by WolfDaddy at 7:22 PM on March 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
This is a game by increpare, and awesome developer who, as you may see by this example, isn't afraid to fuck with people. It's a little on the nose, but his game Home is very good.
posted by The Devil Tesla at 7:26 PM on March 1, 2010
posted by The Devil Tesla at 7:26 PM on March 1, 2010
In fairness, he links to the Fallout site, so it could be reference to the first two games, which both feature excellent plot, setting, and atmosphere, and had very non-linear storylines.
posted by Dysk at 7:29 PM on March 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 7:29 PM on March 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
But yea, by far the my favorite part of this game is the starfield parts, where inexact controls and frequent restarts end up ruining everything. It's like playing a really bad level in a 3d game that hasn't been tested enough, but 2d, if that makes any sense.
posted by The Devil Tesla at 7:30 PM on March 1, 2010
posted by The Devil Tesla at 7:30 PM on March 1, 2010
I think the issue is with the idea that any narrative form can be perfected.
posted by nathancaswell at 7:32 PM on March 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by nathancaswell at 7:32 PM on March 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
mpbx: "Fallout 3 begins with your birth, literally exiting the birth canal, and ends with your death. Can't get much more linear than that."
Well, you could choose to -not- die (ie. not complete the final mission) and just explore the wastes. There's enough excellent free, fanmade content to keep you going for a very long time.
posted by Cat Pie Hurts at 7:33 PM on March 1, 2010
Well, you could choose to -not- die (ie. not complete the final mission) and just explore the wastes. There's enough excellent free, fanmade content to keep you going for a very long time.
posted by Cat Pie Hurts at 7:33 PM on March 1, 2010
And what's life really but fanmade content?
posted by Cat Pie Hurts at 7:34 PM on March 1, 2010 [10 favorites]
posted by Cat Pie Hurts at 7:34 PM on March 1, 2010 [10 favorites]
thats a very good point. Fallout 3 is a shining example.
and to mpbx. even though every life starts and ends the same, whats in the middle is always original.
posted by NotSoSiniSter at 7:37 PM on March 1, 2010
and to mpbx. even though every life starts and ends the same, whats in the middle is always original.
posted by NotSoSiniSter at 7:37 PM on March 1, 2010
Can I declare this thread a Mass Effect 2 Spoiler-Free Zone? I know the linked flash is a very broad parody, but I don't want any LOL JUST LIKE IN ME2 WHERE AERIS DIES in my Metafilter!
posted by thedaniel at 7:46 PM on March 1, 2010
posted by thedaniel at 7:46 PM on March 1, 2010
I thought it sucked as critique, satire and game.
Yes, "moral choice" games aren't as "choice-y" as they make themselves out to be. Considering the development time required to debug and polish every avenue a player can go down, the reasons for this are obvious.
Something like "She wasn't home so I jacked off in the corridor" was shocking/funny when I was eight, hence my not being a fan of Dane Cook.
Even sticking to the top or bottom the gameplay was unbearable.
posted by uri at 7:48 PM on March 1, 2010
Yes, "moral choice" games aren't as "choice-y" as they make themselves out to be. Considering the development time required to debug and polish every avenue a player can go down, the reasons for this are obvious.
Something like "She wasn't home so I jacked off in the corridor" was shocking/funny when I was eight, hence my not being a fan of Dane Cook.
Even sticking to the top or bottom the gameplay was unbearable.
posted by uri at 7:48 PM on March 1, 2010
Great, I can just recycle a comment from a recent thread.
Someday one of these experimental directors will hire a real writer and then you'll have something.
When I was a wee lad, I used to tear a piece of loose leaf up into a couple dozen bookmarks to more efficiently devour all possible endings of choose your own adventure books. If I could do that I might be a little more interested in this, but the prospect of repeating those tedious flying levels over and over again to get the other one-sentence endings does not appeal.
Achron
I hope you enjoy being confused
posted by p3on at 9:17 PM on March 1
Yeah, those time manipulation games are something else.
In conclusion, whoever is responsible for this should write a game with sexy dialog based on their obvious predisposition towards sadism.
posted by nanojath at 7:51 PM on March 1, 2010
Someday one of these experimental directors will hire a real writer and then you'll have something.
When I was a wee lad, I used to tear a piece of loose leaf up into a couple dozen bookmarks to more efficiently devour all possible endings of choose your own adventure books. If I could do that I might be a little more interested in this, but the prospect of repeating those tedious flying levels over and over again to get the other one-sentence endings does not appeal.
Achron
I hope you enjoy being confused
posted by p3on at 9:17 PM on March 1
Yeah, those time manipulation games are something else.
In conclusion, whoever is responsible for this should write a game with sexy dialog based on their obvious predisposition towards sadism.
posted by nanojath at 7:51 PM on March 1, 2010
Can I declare this thread a Mass Effect 2 Spoiler-Free Zone?
Commander Sheperd is made out of chocolate!
The Normandy is a sled.
Joker has been dead the whole time.
posted by kmz at 7:58 PM on March 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
Commander Sheperd is made out of chocolate!
The Normandy is a sled.
Joker has been dead the whole time.
posted by kmz at 7:58 PM on March 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
I was kind of wondeirng if this was intended as some kind of meta-comentary on Mass Effect.
I like that the actual "game" portion is very simplistic and boring, as it often is with games with lots of branching dialogue trees.
ME1's combat was iffy and unbalanced, but as a gaming newb, I really really enjoyed most of the combat in my insanity run in ME2.
posted by kmz at 8:03 PM on March 1, 2010
I like that the actual "game" portion is very simplistic and boring, as it often is with games with lots of branching dialogue trees.
ME1's combat was iffy and unbalanced, but as a gaming newb, I really really enjoyed most of the combat in my insanity run in ME2.
posted by kmz at 8:03 PM on March 1, 2010
Someday one of these experimental directors will hire a real writer and then you'll have something.
When I was a wee lad, I used to tear a piece of loose leaf up into a couple dozen bookmarks to more efficiently devour all possible endings of choose your own adventure books. If I could do that I might be a little more interested in this, but the prospect of repeating those tedious flying levels over and over again to get the other one-sentence endings does not appeal.
That's the point! That's the something!
posted by The Devil Tesla at 8:05 PM on March 1, 2010
When I was a wee lad, I used to tear a piece of loose leaf up into a couple dozen bookmarks to more efficiently devour all possible endings of choose your own adventure books. If I could do that I might be a little more interested in this, but the prospect of repeating those tedious flying levels over and over again to get the other one-sentence endings does not appeal.
That's the point! That's the something!
posted by The Devil Tesla at 8:05 PM on March 1, 2010
I didn't like them, turned them over because I agreed about the security risk, was called a traitor by the omniscient voice or whatever. What was the point?
posted by Danila at 8:13 PM on March 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Danila at 8:13 PM on March 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
The point is to only say yes sometimes, and always say no at other times.
posted by TwelveTwo at 8:14 PM on March 1, 2010
posted by TwelveTwo at 8:14 PM on March 1, 2010
Yeah, but... it's linear. It proceeds in chronological order.
A line (or an affine function, which is what most people think of as "linear") is defined by any two points. Once you define those two points, everything before, after, and in between is well-defined. I tell you f(0) = 3 and f(2) = 7 and everybody agrees that f(1) = 5.
A nonlinear function on the real line also consists of points that can be placed in a specific order, but that's irrelevant. What the nonlinearity means is that now there are far more possible combinations of values for those points. I tell you f(0) = 3 and f(2) = 7, and for all you know f(1) may be 5, -50.5, or 5 billion.
If I tell you that I read the Illiad from beginning to end, and NotSoSiniSter says the same, not only will we agree on what the beginning and ending were, but we will agree on what happened halfway in between. It's "linear" in some metaphorical sense.
Not so for Fallout 3. (except perhaps by comparison with the previous Fallout games?) We will partially agree on what order a dozen quests came in... but we won't agree about another dozen side quests, and even on the main quest line we won't necessarily agree on the quest contents. Did he get into Little Lamplight by becoming a Child at Heart or developing a high Speech skill and talking his way in? By killing a town full of slaves and breaking out child slaves who moved to Lamplight? By just outright buying and freeing the slaves? If he broke them out, which of several possible tactics did he use? If he bought them, what combination of bribes and evil did he use to get in and convince slavers to deal with him?
I don't know. The story is nonlinear.
posted by roystgnr at 8:16 PM on March 1, 2010 [3 favorites]
A line (or an affine function, which is what most people think of as "linear") is defined by any two points. Once you define those two points, everything before, after, and in between is well-defined. I tell you f(0) = 3 and f(2) = 7 and everybody agrees that f(1) = 5.
A nonlinear function on the real line also consists of points that can be placed in a specific order, but that's irrelevant. What the nonlinearity means is that now there are far more possible combinations of values for those points. I tell you f(0) = 3 and f(2) = 7, and for all you know f(1) may be 5, -50.5, or 5 billion.
If I tell you that I read the Illiad from beginning to end, and NotSoSiniSter says the same, not only will we agree on what the beginning and ending were, but we will agree on what happened halfway in between. It's "linear" in some metaphorical sense.
Not so for Fallout 3. (except perhaps by comparison with the previous Fallout games?) We will partially agree on what order a dozen quests came in... but we won't agree about another dozen side quests, and even on the main quest line we won't necessarily agree on the quest contents. Did he get into Little Lamplight by becoming a Child at Heart or developing a high Speech skill and talking his way in? By killing a town full of slaves and breaking out child slaves who moved to Lamplight? By just outright buying and freeing the slaves? If he broke them out, which of several possible tactics did he use? If he bought them, what combination of bribes and evil did he use to get in and convince slavers to deal with him?
I don't know. The story is nonlinear.
posted by roystgnr at 8:16 PM on March 1, 2010 [3 favorites]
And what's life really but fanmade content?
posted by Cat Pie Hurts at 9:34 PM on March 1
I wouldn't call myself a fan, exactly.
posted by nanojath at 8:21 PM on March 1, 2010
posted by Cat Pie Hurts at 9:34 PM on March 1
I wouldn't call myself a fan, exactly.
posted by nanojath at 8:21 PM on March 1, 2010
I have a Wii. Is Wii Sports Resort linear or non-?
posted by deliquescent at 8:23 PM on March 1, 2010
posted by deliquescent at 8:23 PM on March 1, 2010
I felt like linking to Mass Effect would be too obvious, as would linking to KOTOR. In retrospect, I don't get why I choose to be so obtuse.
posted by mccarty.tim at 8:24 PM on March 1, 2010
posted by mccarty.tim at 8:24 PM on March 1, 2010
Well I guess I'm impressed people in this thread decoded it... whatever it is and whatever the fuck Mass Effect 2 is. Congrats?
posted by nathancaswell at 8:28 PM on March 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by nathancaswell at 8:28 PM on March 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
How exactly do you raise a gamut? And by that I mean, what do you feed it?
posted by zylocomotion at 8:28 PM on March 1, 2010
posted by zylocomotion at 8:28 PM on March 1, 2010
Fallout 3 is Run Lola Run.
Remind me never to play Fallout 3.
posted by nathancaswell at 8:31 PM on March 1, 2010
Remind me never to play Fallout 3.
posted by nathancaswell at 8:31 PM on March 1, 2010
i betrayed them. what happens if you don't? (rot13 it if u like)
posted by jcruelty at 8:49 PM on March 1, 2010
posted by jcruelty at 8:49 PM on March 1, 2010
I played Starfeld a week or two ago and it was frankly one of the best things that happened to me that day. It's obviously terrible and puerile by design, but man if it isn't some finely crafted puerile terribleness.
posted by cortex at 8:51 PM on March 1, 2010
posted by cortex at 8:51 PM on March 1, 2010
It would be non linear if it moved back and forth in time, like say, the game opens with activating Project Purity and then you flash back and have to complete the Vault 101 orientation missions. But it doesn't.
You are using "linear" to mean something other than what is meant by basically the whole of the video game industry and its playerbase and critical body. Which is fine, there's nothing wrong with grappling with the strengths and weaknesses of current conceptions of game flow, but I want to be sure that you understand that you're not speaking the language here, that simply insisting that "linear = unmoored from strict chronology" does not make sense in this context because that's manifestly not what people are talking about when they discussion game linearity.
posted by cortex at 8:54 PM on March 1, 2010 [3 favorites]
You are using "linear" to mean something other than what is meant by basically the whole of the video game industry and its playerbase and critical body. Which is fine, there's nothing wrong with grappling with the strengths and weaknesses of current conceptions of game flow, but I want to be sure that you understand that you're not speaking the language here, that simply insisting that "linear = unmoored from strict chronology" does not make sense in this context because that's manifestly not what people are talking about when they discussion game linearity.
posted by cortex at 8:54 PM on March 1, 2010 [3 favorites]
I want to be sure that you understand that you're not speaking the language here, that simply insisting that "linear = unmoored from strict chronology" does not make sense in this context because that's manifestly not what people are talking about when they discussion game linearity.
Your post just made my nose bleed.
posted by nathancaswell at 8:57 PM on March 1, 2010
Your post just made my nose bleed.
posted by nathancaswell at 8:57 PM on March 1, 2010
TwelveTwo: "The point is to only say yes sometimes, and always say no at other times."
Huh??
I didn't consider them security risks because of their requests. But because the one girl seemed mentally unbalanced (marry me for saving my puppy) and the other two were clearly bad eggs (spying, sexual harassment, etc.).
I've never even heard of Fallout, would I be able to understand this game better if I had played that?
posted by Danila at 8:58 PM on March 1, 2010
Huh??
I didn't consider them security risks because of their requests. But because the one girl seemed mentally unbalanced (marry me for saving my puppy) and the other two were clearly bad eggs (spying, sexual harassment, etc.).
I've never even heard of Fallout, would I be able to understand this game better if I had played that?
posted by Danila at 8:58 PM on March 1, 2010
Fallout is just a ruse, it's Mass Effect 2 that we're concerned with! And time!
posted by nathancaswell at 9:02 PM on March 1, 2010
posted by nathancaswell at 9:02 PM on March 1, 2010
Load page.
Bloopy but unappealing music starts playing.
Hit x to continue.
Move around an ugly maze and go on a mission.
Sidescroller with terrible controls.
Die four times.
Why am I doing this??
Close page.
posted by ropeladder at 9:05 PM on March 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
Bloopy but unappealing music starts playing.
Hit x to continue.
Move around an ugly maze and go on a mission.
Sidescroller with terrible controls.
Die four times.
Why am I doing this??
Close page.
posted by ropeladder at 9:05 PM on March 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
I've written both non-linear and linear fiction and, for me anyway, linear fiction is far more satisfying to write. It has mostly to do with the depth of the narrative. Let's say you have enough time to write 100 story beats/scenes.
In a linear narrative, that gives you what we might call a narrative depth of 100, where narrative depth is defined as the average number of story beats per narrative strand. If you have five possible endings, and the branching takes place right at the top of the story, you end up with a narrative depth of 20 or so. Five times less.
It's a straight trade off between complexity and choices, given a finite amount of time the author can spend. A non-linear narrative can never have the same theoretical narrative depth as a linear narrative.
Obviously this ignores the game-playing aspect, which may or may not be important, but I am speaking in purely narrative terms.
I wish that it was different... I've thought about non-linear fiction a lot but still fail to see how it can work outside of a videogame environment. The only really effective (in a literary sense) non-linear narrative I've experienced was one of those Japanese room escape games -- can't remember which one -- which involved releasing the soul of a dead person, with the distinct implication that the dead person was you. That was very creepy and very cool.
posted by unSane at 9:13 PM on March 1, 2010
In a linear narrative, that gives you what we might call a narrative depth of 100, where narrative depth is defined as the average number of story beats per narrative strand. If you have five possible endings, and the branching takes place right at the top of the story, you end up with a narrative depth of 20 or so. Five times less.
It's a straight trade off between complexity and choices, given a finite amount of time the author can spend. A non-linear narrative can never have the same theoretical narrative depth as a linear narrative.
Obviously this ignores the game-playing aspect, which may or may not be important, but I am speaking in purely narrative terms.
I wish that it was different... I've thought about non-linear fiction a lot but still fail to see how it can work outside of a videogame environment. The only really effective (in a literary sense) non-linear narrative I've experienced was one of those Japanese room escape games -- can't remember which one -- which involved releasing the soul of a dead person, with the distinct implication that the dead person was you. That was very creepy and very cool.
posted by unSane at 9:13 PM on March 1, 2010
i betrayed them. what happens if you don't? (rot13 it if u like)
posted by jcruelty at 10:49 PM on March 1
Yeah, I don't think this quite lives up to OMG SPOILERS stuff. Going by my own experience and others read online:
1. You are Mr. Nice in all decisions and refuse to turn the crew over to the authorities: Your crew betrays you anyway and throws you off the ship because there aren't enough supplies.
2. You are Mr. Nice in all decisions but turn your crew over to the authorities: your computer chides you for betraying their trust (which is kind of B.S. in light of #1)
3. You are mean in any of your decisions but refuse to turn the crew over to the authorities: again, they throw you off the ship, but also tell you that you're the dumbest person on the ship first.
3. You are mean in any of your decisions and turn the crew over to the authorities: your computer affirms your decision as your crew were criminals and didn't trust you. This is basically what passes for a "good" ending: you're a jerk who betrays your crew at the first demands of the cops, but your computer tells you that you're smart.
posted by nanojath at 9:50 PM on March 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by jcruelty at 10:49 PM on March 1
Yeah, I don't think this quite lives up to OMG SPOILERS stuff. Going by my own experience and others read online:
1. You are Mr. Nice in all decisions and refuse to turn the crew over to the authorities: Your crew betrays you anyway and throws you off the ship because there aren't enough supplies.
2. You are Mr. Nice in all decisions but turn your crew over to the authorities: your computer chides you for betraying their trust (which is kind of B.S. in light of #1)
3. You are mean in any of your decisions but refuse to turn the crew over to the authorities: again, they throw you off the ship, but also tell you that you're the dumbest person on the ship first.
3. You are mean in any of your decisions and turn the crew over to the authorities: your computer affirms your decision as your crew were criminals and didn't trust you. This is basically what passes for a "good" ending: you're a jerk who betrays your crew at the first demands of the cops, but your computer tells you that you're smart.
posted by nanojath at 9:50 PM on March 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
For those saying that they dont get it: This game is a parody of Bioware games, and Mass Effect in particular. If you haven't played it, don't bother with this.
I loathed Mass Effect 1, haven't played ME2, but I found this kind of funny.
Dragon Age was pretty good, though. I don't know why I enjoyed that one and hated ME, cause they're so similar.
posted by empath at 9:56 PM on March 1, 2010
I loathed Mass Effect 1, haven't played ME2, but I found this kind of funny.
Dragon Age was pretty good, though. I don't know why I enjoyed that one and hated ME, cause they're so similar.
posted by empath at 9:56 PM on March 1, 2010
all the text in the game, so you don't need to replay it to see all the jokes.
posted by empath at 9:57 PM on March 1, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by empath at 9:57 PM on March 1, 2010 [4 favorites]
Mass Effect is actually worse than that... with the advent of the use of voice actors you now have to sit and listen through all of the long tedious conversation trees, rather than being able to skim through all the text. It's like being trapped in a cut-scene forever.
posted by Artw at 10:03 PM on March 1, 2010
posted by Artw at 10:03 PM on March 1, 2010
Turn on subtitles and ride the dragon that way, Artw. Though I agree that in general the voice-acting approach does have it's downsides for the dedicated skimmer.
It's interesting to compare that to Dragon Age, where the dialogue is both more wide-ranging in its choices and faster to work through, but where your character is in turn some kind of bizarre shellshocked mime, capable of saving the world but incapable of more than vague gestures and blank looks during discursive asides.
posted by cortex at 10:13 PM on March 1, 2010
It's interesting to compare that to Dragon Age, where the dialogue is both more wide-ranging in its choices and faster to work through, but where your character is in turn some kind of bizarre shellshocked mime, capable of saving the world but incapable of more than vague gestures and blank looks during discursive asides.
posted by cortex at 10:13 PM on March 1, 2010
TBH I'm cheating a little commenting on Mass Effect as after I wandered around thespaceship at the start of Mass Effect and had several very loooooong and repetitive conversatiosn with everybody, leaving no conversational rock unturned, I finally got into combat and found that my graphics card wasn't up to it, so I gave up and played some other cheap game I'd bought on Steam instead, and never quite got around to finding some good video settings and going back.
posted by Artw at 10:27 PM on March 1, 2010
posted by Artw at 10:27 PM on March 1, 2010
"Nonlinear" means different things for games than it means for fiction. In fiction it is a story with a disrupted chronology where-as in games it refers to the story branching.
posted by Authorized User at 10:27 PM on March 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Authorized User at 10:27 PM on March 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
And what's life really but fanmade content?
God needs to release some expansion packs already.
posted by armage at 10:46 PM on March 1, 2010
God needs to release some expansion packs already.
posted by armage at 10:46 PM on March 1, 2010
Best Buy employment applications qualify as non-linear, if that's all it takes to be so. And Starfeld? As in, I feld and cut my knee? Or, I feld to see why x is a better choice than say, g.
posted by Brocktoon at 10:59 PM on March 1, 2010
posted by Brocktoon at 10:59 PM on March 1, 2010
Completely-voiced games are the death of the RPG, of course, as any right-thinking person will agree.
Planescape forever.
posted by Justinian at 11:09 PM on March 1, 2010
Planescape forever.
posted by Justinian at 11:09 PM on March 1, 2010
What I'd really like is a game with an unreliable narrator (protagonist in this instance). Anything like that out there?
posted by Ritchie at 12:11 AM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Ritchie at 12:11 AM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Ritchie: try "Slouching Toward Bedlam" and "Tapestry"
For more information about nonlinear digital narrative and how branching is simply toes-in-the-water, see "Patterns of Hypertext" by Bernstein. For a videogamer-friendly description of narrative in poems, plays, and novels, see the first two chapters of Lowe's The Classical Plot and the Invention of Narrative.
posted by honest knave at 12:46 AM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
For more information about nonlinear digital narrative and how branching is simply toes-in-the-water, see "Patterns of Hypertext" by Bernstein. For a videogamer-friendly description of narrative in poems, plays, and novels, see the first two chapters of Lowe's The Classical Plot and the Invention of Narrative.
posted by honest knave at 12:46 AM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Eternal Darkness sort of has that Ritchie. The story has three different elder gods, and at the end of the game you kill one of them. The game has three different endings. Only, *spoiler* it actually has four elder gods, the fourth of which is free at the end of the third ending. So you get the usual short movie of one of the gods killing another god, then you get a slightly longer movie where the fourth elder god thanks you for simultaneously killing all of it's brethren and leaving it free to rule over the Earth. This was basically the setup for a sequel, which is never going to get made.
posted by Peztopiary at 1:12 AM on March 2, 2010
posted by Peztopiary at 1:12 AM on March 2, 2010
Thanks for the suggestions, honest knave and Peztopiary.
I was kind of thinking about a game in which you as the player jump between multiple perspectives, say two or three different characters. When you're not 'in' a character, they go about their business as usual according to the storyline.
The unreliability of the characters is slowly exposed. At first, it's subtle. A few conversational options don't seem quite... right. But they hew close enough to the memories that you (the player) have of that part of the story that you start to question whether you perceived it correctly.
Later, as you start to jump between characters, it becomes even more puzzling. It's clear that the game is representing the other characters in a way that is at odds with your experience of them, but there's nothing you can put your finger on, nothing that you can say is hard evidence. When you shift perspectives again, it is clear from the records each character keeps (in-game diaries, digital PAs, smartphone etc) that you're just misreading the situation. Maybe you even start to get irritated that the game seems unfinished, that the developer failed to resolve these contradictions.
Still later, you have opportunities to actually witness first-hand the other characters misrepresent themselves or flat-out lie, but this just deepens the puzzle, because their reasons for doing so remain veiled, even to themselves.
It ends up being a type of mystery, I guess, where you as the player are constantly being challenged to question your own interpretation of events within the game. Part of each character's experience is closed off to you, by virtue of only being allowed a single perspective, and an unprivileged one at that. That would be one way to do an unreliable narrator type of game, I suppose.
posted by Ritchie at 3:34 AM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
I was kind of thinking about a game in which you as the player jump between multiple perspectives, say two or three different characters. When you're not 'in' a character, they go about their business as usual according to the storyline.
The unreliability of the characters is slowly exposed. At first, it's subtle. A few conversational options don't seem quite... right. But they hew close enough to the memories that you (the player) have of that part of the story that you start to question whether you perceived it correctly.
Later, as you start to jump between characters, it becomes even more puzzling. It's clear that the game is representing the other characters in a way that is at odds with your experience of them, but there's nothing you can put your finger on, nothing that you can say is hard evidence. When you shift perspectives again, it is clear from the records each character keeps (in-game diaries, digital PAs, smartphone etc) that you're just misreading the situation. Maybe you even start to get irritated that the game seems unfinished, that the developer failed to resolve these contradictions.
Still later, you have opportunities to actually witness first-hand the other characters misrepresent themselves or flat-out lie, but this just deepens the puzzle, because their reasons for doing so remain veiled, even to themselves.
It ends up being a type of mystery, I guess, where you as the player are constantly being challenged to question your own interpretation of events within the game. Part of each character's experience is closed off to you, by virtue of only being allowed a single perspective, and an unprivileged one at that. That would be one way to do an unreliable narrator type of game, I suppose.
posted by Ritchie at 3:34 AM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
I wandered around the spaceship at the start of Mass Effect...
Should you replace your graphics card and feel like subjecting yourself to Bioware again, Mass Effect 2 is a lot more streamlined than the first game; although you can still get yourself into conversational loops you rather have to be trying to, and the combat (when you turn the difficulty up to hardcore or insanity) is better than any other console-style shooter bar Halo, imo. Plus, people have posted their custom player characters online, so you can play the game as John Locke or Scully if you're so inclined.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 3:45 AM on March 2, 2010
Should you replace your graphics card and feel like subjecting yourself to Bioware again, Mass Effect 2 is a lot more streamlined than the first game; although you can still get yourself into conversational loops you rather have to be trying to, and the combat (when you turn the difficulty up to hardcore or insanity) is better than any other console-style shooter bar Halo, imo. Plus, people have posted their custom player characters online, so you can play the game as John Locke or Scully if you're so inclined.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 3:45 AM on March 2, 2010
Ritchie: check out Final Fantasy VII, Rymans 253, and the nearly infinite number of Rashomon knock-offs.
posted by honest knave at 6:40 AM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by honest knave at 6:40 AM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
I was kind of thinking about a game in which you as the player jump between multiple perspectives, say two or three different characters. When you're not 'in' a character, they go about their business as usual according to the storyline.
You might check out Indigo Prophecy—it fulfills this much of the shifting-perspective thing and has a degree of unreliable narration to boot as at least one of the central playable characters is coming at the situation with fairly incomplete information about even his own place in the story.
It's not a thorough-going Rashomon type of mystery, and while the game is actually pretty interesting for it's non-standard take on both story progression and control schemes it falls apart a bit at the end, but for explicitly embracing the use of alternating character perspectives in a mystery context it's really worth giving a shot.
I never played Killer 7, but my impression is that it uses a somewhat more fantastical take on shifting character perspectives to tell a contradictory story about the central character those various playables are projections/extensions/fractions of. It's possible that'd be interesting to you as well.
posted by cortex at 6:53 AM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
You might check out Indigo Prophecy—it fulfills this much of the shifting-perspective thing and has a degree of unreliable narration to boot as at least one of the central playable characters is coming at the situation with fairly incomplete information about even his own place in the story.
It's not a thorough-going Rashomon type of mystery, and while the game is actually pretty interesting for it's non-standard take on both story progression and control schemes it falls apart a bit at the end, but for explicitly embracing the use of alternating character perspectives in a mystery context it's really worth giving a shot.
I never played Killer 7, but my impression is that it uses a somewhat more fantastical take on shifting character perspectives to tell a contradictory story about the central character those various playables are projections/extensions/fractions of. It's possible that'd be interesting to you as well.
posted by cortex at 6:53 AM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Killer7 is excellent, and well worth playing. If it's available to you, the Gamecube/Wii version is preferable due to the much longer loading times on the PS2, which rather break the atmosphere.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 7:44 AM on March 2, 2010
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 7:44 AM on March 2, 2010
This was basically the setup for a sequel, which is never going to get made.
And a good thing, too. Have you seen Too Human? At over $60 million in development costs, it's one of the most expensive games ever made. It's also a pile of festering garbage.
posted by Talanvor at 7:53 AM on March 2, 2010
And a good thing, too. Have you seen Too Human? At over $60 million in development costs, it's one of the most expensive games ever made. It's also a pile of festering garbage.
posted by Talanvor at 7:53 AM on March 2, 2010
Yup, I see what you're getting at. Ha ha. The relationships in Mass Effect 1/2 are simplistic. It's hard, I think, to be an effective piece of criticism when you fail so completely at what ME does pretty well -- gameplay. The side-scrolling stuff was tedious, boring, and painful to control.
That's one of the reasons Matt Hazard was poorly received. (And, for that matter, The Simpsons Game) Funny meta-commentary, boring-ass gameplay.
posted by graventy at 8:33 AM on March 2, 2010
That's one of the reasons Matt Hazard was poorly received. (And, for that matter, The Simpsons Game) Funny meta-commentary, boring-ass gameplay.
posted by graventy at 8:33 AM on March 2, 2010
Well, you could choose to -not- die ... and just explore the wastes.
In keeping with the theme of my character for Fallout 3, I've taken this lone wanderer mentality and applied it to my everyday life.
Sadly, work has gotten really grouchy about my attacking the front desk security "supermutants" with my plasma rifle.
Now I just stealth my way in every day.
As an upside; going through everyone's desks has yielded a remarkable amount of ammunition.
posted by quin at 8:41 AM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
In keeping with the theme of my character for Fallout 3, I've taken this lone wanderer mentality and applied it to my everyday life.
Sadly, work has gotten really grouchy about my attacking the front desk security "supermutants" with my plasma rifle.
Now I just stealth my way in every day.
As an upside; going through everyone's desks has yielded a remarkable amount of ammunition.
posted by quin at 8:41 AM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Ritchie: My favorite unreliable narrator game is Spider and Web by Andrew Plotkin. In this case, you're trying to be an unreliable narrator, which is a twist I found delightful.
posted by Phineas Rhyne at 9:12 AM on March 2, 2010
posted by Phineas Rhyne at 9:12 AM on March 2, 2010
And a good thing, too. Have you seen Too Human? At over $60 million in development costs, it's one of the most expensive games ever made. It's also a pile of festering garbage.
Yes, but the key difference being that Eternal Darkness was good. Nobody's asking for a sequel to Too Human.
Also, on the topic of less than traditional narrative, I recommend Shadow of the Colossus. And that's all I'll say about that.
posted by Amanojaku at 10:50 AM on March 2, 2010
Yes, but the key difference being that Eternal Darkness was good. Nobody's asking for a sequel to Too Human.
Also, on the topic of less than traditional narrative, I recommend Shadow of the Colossus. And that's all I'll say about that.
posted by Amanojaku at 10:50 AM on March 2, 2010
Yes, but the key difference being that Eternal Darkness was good. Nobody's asking for a sequel to Too Human.
Same studio, though. I imagine if they made a sequel to Eternal Darkness it would not end up vastly different, quality wise.
posted by Talanvor at 10:55 AM on March 2, 2010
Same studio, though. I imagine if they made a sequel to Eternal Darkness it would not end up vastly different, quality wise.
posted by Talanvor at 10:55 AM on March 2, 2010
The main thing that I care about in videogames naratives is that they shouldn't make me feel railroaded or like I have no control over the character, and that goes just as strongly for games with a multi-line forked narrative structure as it does for ones with a single-line one.
posted by Artw at 10:58 AM on March 2, 2010
posted by Artw at 10:58 AM on March 2, 2010
Fallout 3 begins with your birth, literally exiting the birth canal, and ends with your death. Can't get much more linear than that.
oh bullshit. fallout 3, as EVERYONE knows, began with you waking up from a long sleep. you just HAPPENED to be sleeping very close to someone's vagina.
posted by shmegegge at 3:25 PM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
oh bullshit. fallout 3, as EVERYONE knows, began with you waking up from a long sleep. you just HAPPENED to be sleeping very close to someone's vagina.
posted by shmegegge at 3:25 PM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
140 [INTERIOR - BRIDGE]
(BRIDGE is battle-damaged, but not darkened, its crew looking worse for the wear. COMPUTER SCREENS are cracked, a HELM STATION is a blackened wreck, and THE REFRIGERATOR won't close properly)
PICARD
(stern) Lay in a course for Sector 000.
141 [PICARD'S FACE]
PICARD
Engage.
142 [CAPTAIN'S CHAIR]
PICARD
(leans to converse with RIKER) Number One, this is not going to be
[SFX: TURBOLIFT OPEN]
(PICARD and RIKER both look over their shoulders)
143 [MAIN TURBOLIFT DOOR]
(The DOOR is open. A MAN'S LEG is seen leaving the frame)
144 [BRIDGE KITCHEN]
KRAMER
(at the REFRIGERATOR, visibly shaken, anxious, helping himself to a bowl of CEREAL) I-I-I-... *anxious sound* *disgruntled hoot*
145 [TACTICAL STATION]
(WORF is pissed)
146 [BRIDGE KITCHEN]
KRAMER
(helping himself to MILK, spilling more than is in his bowl as his anxious shivers move to a hilarious crecendo) I'm out.
147 [INTERIOR - BRIDGE]
(an awkward pause. TROI looks confused.)
148 [FIRST OFFICER'S CHAIR]
(RIKER cracks a smile, then a chortle.)
149 [BRIDGE - VIEW FROM FORE]
(the laughter spreads to all as they realize that KRAMER has admitted to recently masturbating. All but DATA laugh, for he is preoccupied with making sure the ENTERPRISE-D arrives at EARTH in time to kill all the WHALES)
148 [EXTERIOR - ENTERPRISE-D]
(The ENTERPRISE-D is speeding through WARP SPACE. More laughter.)
COMMERCIAL BREAK TITLE CARD
posted by maus at 3:35 PM on March 2, 2010
(BRIDGE is battle-damaged, but not darkened, its crew looking worse for the wear. COMPUTER SCREENS are cracked, a HELM STATION is a blackened wreck, and THE REFRIGERATOR won't close properly)
PICARD
(stern) Lay in a course for Sector 000.
141 [PICARD'S FACE]
PICARD
Engage.
142 [CAPTAIN'S CHAIR]
PICARD
(leans to converse with RIKER) Number One, this is not going to be
[SFX: TURBOLIFT OPEN]
(PICARD and RIKER both look over their shoulders)
143 [MAIN TURBOLIFT DOOR]
(The DOOR is open. A MAN'S LEG is seen leaving the frame)
144 [BRIDGE KITCHEN]
KRAMER
(at the REFRIGERATOR, visibly shaken, anxious, helping himself to a bowl of CEREAL) I-I-I-... *anxious sound* *disgruntled hoot*
145 [TACTICAL STATION]
(WORF is pissed)
146 [BRIDGE KITCHEN]
KRAMER
(helping himself to MILK, spilling more than is in his bowl as his anxious shivers move to a hilarious crecendo) I'm out.
147 [INTERIOR - BRIDGE]
(an awkward pause. TROI looks confused.)
148 [FIRST OFFICER'S CHAIR]
(RIKER cracks a smile, then a chortle.)
149 [BRIDGE - VIEW FROM FORE]
(the laughter spreads to all as they realize that KRAMER has admitted to recently masturbating. All but DATA laugh, for he is preoccupied with making sure the ENTERPRISE-D arrives at EARTH in time to kill all the WHALES)
148 [EXTERIOR - ENTERPRISE-D]
(The ENTERPRISE-D is speeding through WARP SPACE. More laughter.)
COMMERCIAL BREAK TITLE CARD
posted by maus at 3:35 PM on March 2, 2010
Everybody seems to have missed the fact that the game this post is actually about, Starfeld, is complete crap.
posted by aesacus at 3:38 PM on March 10, 2010
posted by aesacus at 3:38 PM on March 10, 2010
I can't believe Julie did me like that.
posted by Reverend John at 8:49 PM on March 15, 2010
posted by Reverend John at 8:49 PM on March 15, 2010
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posted by nathancaswell at 6:45 PM on March 1, 2010 [4 favorites]