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March 15, 2010 7:36 PM Subscribe
The comments are interesting.
My Euro-white brother married a first generation Iranian-American. What's funny is that her kids never knew they were half Iranian until they were teenagers, because my sister-in-law always identified herself as Persian.
posted by kozad at 7:47 PM on March 15, 2010 [3 favorites]
My Euro-white brother married a first generation Iranian-American. What's funny is that her kids never knew they were half Iranian until they were teenagers, because my sister-in-law always identified herself as Persian.
posted by kozad at 7:47 PM on March 15, 2010 [3 favorites]
I thought you said you were from Iran.
(IT Crowd)
posted by sien at 7:51 PM on March 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
(IT Crowd)
posted by sien at 7:51 PM on March 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
But can I get a chelokabob, a cruller and some General Gao at the same place?
posted by jsavimbi at 7:55 PM on March 15, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by jsavimbi at 7:55 PM on March 15, 2010 [3 favorites]
Persian Persons?
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:15 PM on March 15, 2010
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:15 PM on March 15, 2010
Kind of not funny until the end, when the main joke of the thing makes itself clear.
When my wife was in Grade 5 or 6 it was during the whole hostage thing in '79 and they would tell people they were French or Italian or something.
It always reminded me of the Coneheads. "We're from France."
posted by chococat at 8:19 PM on March 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
When my wife was in Grade 5 or 6 it was during the whole hostage thing in '79 and they would tell people they were French or Italian or something.
It always reminded me of the Coneheads. "We're from France."
posted by chococat at 8:19 PM on March 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
I thought Iranians/Persians were classified as white. South Asians (Indians) were classified as white inconsistently throughout history. Obviously there's no way we're classified as white now. ASIAN PRIDE!
posted by anniecat at 8:23 PM on March 15, 2010
posted by anniecat at 8:23 PM on March 15, 2010
That was awesome. My wife approves.
posted by chunking express at 8:25 PM on March 15, 2010
posted by chunking express at 8:25 PM on March 15, 2010
Ethnicity I can understand, but classifying by race is a relic of the early 20th century.
posted by KokuRyu at 8:26 PM on March 15, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by KokuRyu at 8:26 PM on March 15, 2010 [4 favorites]
What about those of us who are Iranian-American than aren't Persian?
(The pisser of all of this is that I'd JUST filled out and dropped off my Census and took two glances at the race section before shrugging my shoulders and checking off "White." The U.S. counts by mother's race anyway, right? Even if there are less than 2M people on my dad's side of things?)
posted by one.louder.ash! at 8:29 PM on March 15, 2010
(The pisser of all of this is that I'd JUST filled out and dropped off my Census and took two glances at the race section before shrugging my shoulders and checking off "White." The U.S. counts by mother's race anyway, right? Even if there are less than 2M people on my dad's side of things?)
posted by one.louder.ash! at 8:29 PM on March 15, 2010
"I'm Persian... hsss"
posted by edgeways at 8:29 PM on March 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by edgeways at 8:29 PM on March 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
BTW, when did they drop the birthplace and parent's birthplaces questions from the census? Doing some genealogy work, that is some useful info for making sure you have the right John Smith born in 1883.
posted by smackfu at 8:39 PM on March 15, 2010
posted by smackfu at 8:39 PM on March 15, 2010
From the comments:
Cyrus Says:
March 9th, 2010 at 4:25pm
Humorous! But I am not sold on this Iranian-American thing. Just as I am not a fan of any sort of hyphenated Americanism.
Perhaps the next movie made should succinctly explain why Iranians need to become a minority, while many other Olive skin ethnic groups living in this country dating back to the late 1800’s, like Greeks, Armenians, all Balkan cultures, Turks and even Arabs never tried for that status? While some greedy Iranians may think that being minority will facilitate their ability to tap into minority entitlement programs or allow them to sue every redneck who dares to make derogatory remark against their beloved country, but there is a huge downside price to pay in branding ourselves a non-white minority that will haunt our children in this country forever.
So crazy, but the last line is chillingly true.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:43 PM on March 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
Cyrus Says:
March 9th, 2010 at 4:25pm
Humorous! But I am not sold on this Iranian-American thing. Just as I am not a fan of any sort of hyphenated Americanism.
Perhaps the next movie made should succinctly explain why Iranians need to become a minority, while many other Olive skin ethnic groups living in this country dating back to the late 1800’s, like Greeks, Armenians, all Balkan cultures, Turks and even Arabs never tried for that status? While some greedy Iranians may think that being minority will facilitate their ability to tap into minority entitlement programs or allow them to sue every redneck who dares to make derogatory remark against their beloved country, but there is a huge downside price to pay in branding ourselves a non-white minority that will haunt our children in this country forever.
So crazy, but the last line is chillingly true.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:43 PM on March 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
This thread popped up as I was filling out my census forms. Fuck it, I'm Iranian.
posted by dunkadunc at 8:49 PM on March 15, 2010
posted by dunkadunc at 8:49 PM on March 15, 2010
Isn't it Iranic, don't you think?
posted by Eideteker at 8:54 PM on March 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Eideteker at 8:54 PM on March 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
Can I write in "don't know/don't care" (incidentally, both are true... mutts, represent!)
posted by qvantamon at 8:58 PM on March 15, 2010
posted by qvantamon at 8:58 PM on March 15, 2010
"White. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "White" or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Near Easterner, Arab, or Polish."[9]
from smackfu's link
posted by toodleydoodley at 9:02 PM on March 15, 2010
from smackfu's link
posted by toodleydoodley at 9:02 PM on March 15, 2010
a coalition was initiated by Iranian American Organizations to campaign for not only the participation of Iranians in the Census but the explicit declaration of our Nationality “Iranian” or “Iranian American” under the question 9 of the Census which asks “What is the Person’s Race?”
Cute video. But uh, nationality does not equal race.
posted by desuetude at 9:09 PM on March 15, 2010
Cute video. But uh, nationality does not equal race.
posted by desuetude at 9:09 PM on March 15, 2010
Arabs and West Asians (as in persons from Iran) are "visible minority" in Canada.
posted by ethnomethodologist at 9:11 PM on March 15, 2010
posted by ethnomethodologist at 9:11 PM on March 15, 2010
So crazy, but the last line is chillingly true.
It is, but I'm not sure how relevant it is to the census. The purpose of this is to make it clear that there are so many Americans of Iranian descent, but with the anonymity, I really don't think it counts as "branding" oneself as anything. I'm not Iranian, so I can't speak to the issue with any authority, but I think that when a good portion of America sees Iran as the enemy, it would be helpful to remind them that there are a hell of a lot of Americans who are also, in some sense, Iranian.
Then again, I'm sure Glenn Beck could turn it into a racist crusade about who "true" Americans are. So yeah, it's tricky. But I'm not also into the idea of anyone making choices based upon how Glenn Beck might respond.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:16 PM on March 15, 2010
It is, but I'm not sure how relevant it is to the census. The purpose of this is to make it clear that there are so many Americans of Iranian descent, but with the anonymity, I really don't think it counts as "branding" oneself as anything. I'm not Iranian, so I can't speak to the issue with any authority, but I think that when a good portion of America sees Iran as the enemy, it would be helpful to remind them that there are a hell of a lot of Americans who are also, in some sense, Iranian.
Then again, I'm sure Glenn Beck could turn it into a racist crusade about who "true" Americans are. So yeah, it's tricky. But I'm not also into the idea of anyone making choices based upon how Glenn Beck might respond.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:16 PM on March 15, 2010
What's with the guy in the video trying really hard to do a Borat impression?
posted by milnak at 10:13 PM on March 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by milnak at 10:13 PM on March 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
Ethnicity I can understand, but classifying by race is a relic of the early 20th century.
Institutional racism is surprisingly unsophisticated. So long as skin tone correlates with educational and economic outcomes, its a relevant question on the Census, which remains our best tool for estimating the extent of aforementioned institutional racism.
posted by l33tpolicywonk at 10:21 PM on March 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
Institutional racism is surprisingly unsophisticated. So long as skin tone correlates with educational and economic outcomes, its a relevant question on the Census, which remains our best tool for estimating the extent of aforementioned institutional racism.
posted by l33tpolicywonk at 10:21 PM on March 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
This video did a great job of presenting Iranian men as sleazy and/or dumb, and the Iranian woman as a push-poller (which is presumably against the rules of census taker conduct). I don't see how it encourages self-identification as Iranian.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 11:35 PM on March 15, 2010
posted by aeschenkarnos at 11:35 PM on March 15, 2010
...I am not sold on this Iranian-American thing.
In my experience, the devaluation of cultural heritage in America has resulted in the voluntary abandonment by immigrants of a tremendous amount of cultural treasure.
I remember chatting with a girl who told me about her career, her doctor brother, and later revealed her Mexican heritage -- "oh, do you speak Spanish?" "No, our parents made sure never to speak Spanish to us because they wanted us to be American."
I remember speaking Spanish on the bus with a girlfriend when a Mexican guy started talking to us. It was clear that his English wasn't very good. What was worse: his Spanish was embarrassingly bad.
I remember playing chess with a Basque guy in downtown Toronto who told me how the Spanish government had made it illegal for them to speak their language. How they had tried to rob them of their culture.
It really kills me that immigrants in America are deceived by unilingual Americans that language has no value -- deceived by Americans who eat nothing but hot dogs and hamburgers and mac 'n cheese that cuisine has no value -- deceived by a country with a brief recorded history that the best story is no story. And, unlike the Cultural Revolution or the cultural annihilation of African Americans, the modern abandoning of culture for 'whiteness' is completely voluntary.
posted by esprit de l'escalier at 1:52 AM on March 16, 2010 [3 favorites]
In my experience, the devaluation of cultural heritage in America has resulted in the voluntary abandonment by immigrants of a tremendous amount of cultural treasure.
I remember chatting with a girl who told me about her career, her doctor brother, and later revealed her Mexican heritage -- "oh, do you speak Spanish?" "No, our parents made sure never to speak Spanish to us because they wanted us to be American."
I remember speaking Spanish on the bus with a girlfriend when a Mexican guy started talking to us. It was clear that his English wasn't very good. What was worse: his Spanish was embarrassingly bad.
I remember playing chess with a Basque guy in downtown Toronto who told me how the Spanish government had made it illegal for them to speak their language. How they had tried to rob them of their culture.
It really kills me that immigrants in America are deceived by unilingual Americans that language has no value -- deceived by Americans who eat nothing but hot dogs and hamburgers and mac 'n cheese that cuisine has no value -- deceived by a country with a brief recorded history that the best story is no story. And, unlike the Cultural Revolution or the cultural annihilation of African Americans, the modern abandoning of culture for 'whiteness' is completely voluntary.
posted by esprit de l'escalier at 1:52 AM on March 16, 2010 [3 favorites]
It really kills me that immigrants in America are deceived by unilingual Americans that language has no value -- deceived by Americans who eat nothing but hot dogs and hamburgers and mac 'n cheese that cuisine has no value -- deceived by a country with a brief recorded history that the best story is no story.
That's not true. Or rather, that's not true for the large number of immigrants I interact with. For one, there's no universal approach -- some push for "English only" at home, others insist the kids learn the parents' language(s), etc. But even in the families that are pushing for English instead of the parents' language(s), it's a strategic choice, based on their own difficulties in getting ahead when limited by non-fluency. You and I might think that a better approach would be bilingualism (or tri-, for that matter), but the parents are certainly right in that knowing English is the serious predictor of success, not the second language acquisition. Unlike many European countries, the US has no national policy on this (and has been extremely accommodating of non-English speakers, for that matter); that this remains a personal and family choice in the US is to the country's credit.
tl;dr: it's a lot more complicated, and you need to give the people making those choices credit for not being stupid.
The U.S. counts by mother's race anyway, right? Even if there are less than 2M people on my dad's side of things?
No, not by mother's side. Race in the US is a weird amalgam of personal choice and an inconsistent application of the "one drop" rule. Unlike in many countries, race/ethnicity here is purely self-reported, and it's up to you to decide which of a host of shifting and often ambiguous categories might fit you best at that moment. For many people the choice of categorization is a political choice as much as a purely descriptive one, and that choice can shift over time, as well.
posted by Forktine at 3:25 AM on March 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
That's not true. Or rather, that's not true for the large number of immigrants I interact with. For one, there's no universal approach -- some push for "English only" at home, others insist the kids learn the parents' language(s), etc. But even in the families that are pushing for English instead of the parents' language(s), it's a strategic choice, based on their own difficulties in getting ahead when limited by non-fluency. You and I might think that a better approach would be bilingualism (or tri-, for that matter), but the parents are certainly right in that knowing English is the serious predictor of success, not the second language acquisition. Unlike many European countries, the US has no national policy on this (and has been extremely accommodating of non-English speakers, for that matter); that this remains a personal and family choice in the US is to the country's credit.
tl;dr: it's a lot more complicated, and you need to give the people making those choices credit for not being stupid.
The U.S. counts by mother's race anyway, right? Even if there are less than 2M people on my dad's side of things?
No, not by mother's side. Race in the US is a weird amalgam of personal choice and an inconsistent application of the "one drop" rule. Unlike in many countries, race/ethnicity here is purely self-reported, and it's up to you to decide which of a host of shifting and often ambiguous categories might fit you best at that moment. For many people the choice of categorization is a political choice as much as a purely descriptive one, and that choice can shift over time, as well.
posted by Forktine at 3:25 AM on March 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
People who haven't spent much time in Canada don't understand how different some aspects of the cultures are. In the U.S., everyone must be American. You can be a hyphenated American if you want, but it basically means you were last off the boat or haven't figured out how to fit in yet, or are some kind of warped soul who wants to stick out of the melting pot like a jagged bit of celery that just won't submerge into the stew. (I am American by birth, and grew up in south Florida, a very multi-ethnic region.)
In Canada, ethnicity and nationality are orthogonal. You can be Iranian and a Canadian at the same time. It isn't a hyphen, it's a tuple: {Iranian,Canadian}. It's taken me a few years to become acclimated to it, but damn if it isn't refreshing, and solves so many problems of identification. I meet so many different ethnicities here, and everyone is proud of their heritage and proud of being a Canadian. (I am Canadian by choice.)
My Canadian citizenship ceremony last year was wonderful; in a room of fifty people, there were over two dozen countries represented. And each person (including me) had an amazingly warm glow about them that meant: I have found a home where I can be myself and be welcomed for who I am right now, not who-I-could-be once I learn how to fit in.
I guess this is a little OT but I'm misty-eyed right now.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:05 AM on March 16, 2010 [3 favorites]
In Canada, ethnicity and nationality are orthogonal. You can be Iranian and a Canadian at the same time. It isn't a hyphen, it's a tuple: {Iranian,Canadian}. It's taken me a few years to become acclimated to it, but damn if it isn't refreshing, and solves so many problems of identification. I meet so many different ethnicities here, and everyone is proud of their heritage and proud of being a Canadian. (I am Canadian by choice.)
My Canadian citizenship ceremony last year was wonderful; in a room of fifty people, there were over two dozen countries represented. And each person (including me) had an amazingly warm glow about them that meant: I have found a home where I can be myself and be welcomed for who I am right now, not who-I-could-be once I learn how to fit in.
I guess this is a little OT but I'm misty-eyed right now.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:05 AM on March 16, 2010 [3 favorites]
In Canada, ethnicity and nationality are orthogonal.
It's quite simple: ethnicity is where you|your pro-generators came from, nationality is Canadian. Ethnicity is a curiosity, nationality is what matters.
posted by bonehead at 5:16 AM on March 16, 2010
It's quite simple: ethnicity is where you|your pro-generators came from, nationality is Canadian. Ethnicity is a curiosity, nationality is what matters.
posted by bonehead at 5:16 AM on March 16, 2010
Unlike in many countries, race/ethnicity here is purely self-reported, and it's up to you to decide which of a host of shifting and often ambiguous categories might fit you best at that moment.
Dollar for dollar, the right choice is to identify as a Pacific Islander. Let affirmative action work for you!
posted by Meatbomb at 5:30 AM on March 16, 2010
Dollar for dollar, the right choice is to identify as a Pacific Islander. Let affirmative action work for you!
posted by Meatbomb at 5:30 AM on March 16, 2010
one.louder.ash!: The U.S. counts by mother's race anyway, right?
No. Perhaps you are thinking of Jews, who count someone as Jewish if their mother was Jewish. The U.S. has never made such delineation.
posted by desjardins at 6:37 AM on March 16, 2010
No. Perhaps you are thinking of Jews, who count someone as Jewish if their mother was Jewish. The U.S. has never made such delineation.
posted by desjardins at 6:37 AM on March 16, 2010
I guess this is a little OT but I'm misty-eyed right now.
Oh, Canada, you're getting bit tiresome. We had just about enough Canada for one year in the Olympics.
posted by smackfu at 6:47 AM on March 16, 2010
Oh, Canada, you're getting bit tiresome. We had just about enough Canada for one year in the Olympics.
posted by smackfu at 6:47 AM on March 16, 2010
In the U.S., everyone must be American. You can be a hyphenated American if you want, but it basically means you were last off the boat or haven't figured out how to fit in yet, or are some kind of warped soul who wants to stick out of the melting pot like a jagged bit of celery that just won't submerge into the stew. (I am American by birth, and grew up in south Florida, a very multi-ethnic region.)
This is just baffling. You must be the only person to grow up in the US and somehow never meet anyone who was Irish, or Italian, or Polish.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:58 AM on March 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
This is just baffling. You must be the only person to grow up in the US and somehow never meet anyone who was Irish, or Italian, or Polish.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:58 AM on March 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
In the U.S., everyone must be American. You can be a hyphenated American if you want, but it basically means you were last off the boat or haven't figured out how to fit in yet
I can't put my finger on it, but something about this description troubles me. Perhaps because it reminds me of what I've heard about French society, where everyone is supposed to be considered "French" and there is no official record of ethnic diversity, but there is clear economic and political disparity between the native and immigrant populations.
The U.S. is in between Canada and France on whatever scale of acknowledgment we're talking about, but if we consider "visible minorities," the U.S. is much more diverse than either...so there's that.
posted by kittyprecious at 7:02 AM on March 16, 2010
I can't put my finger on it, but something about this description troubles me. Perhaps because it reminds me of what I've heard about French society, where everyone is supposed to be considered "French" and there is no official record of ethnic diversity, but there is clear economic and political disparity between the native and immigrant populations.
The U.S. is in between Canada and France on whatever scale of acknowledgment we're talking about, but if we consider "visible minorities," the U.S. is much more diverse than either...so there's that.
posted by kittyprecious at 7:02 AM on March 16, 2010
Ethnicity is such a mixed bag in the US because we like to pretend we have a long-standing cultural that defines a complete ethnic identity. But the truth is that while different areas have some common ground, the best parts are still obviously identifiable with another country or region.
It's nearly impossible to make your cultural traditions seem unique when regions of Europe, Asia, and South America have had the same background for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. I'm pretty much 100% ethnically, socially, and culturally midwestern American so I run around trying to act like pork tenderloin sandwiches and the newscaster accent define an ethnicity. It's a little sad.
posted by mikeh at 7:07 AM on March 16, 2010
It's nearly impossible to make your cultural traditions seem unique when regions of Europe, Asia, and South America have had the same background for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. I'm pretty much 100% ethnically, socially, and culturally midwestern American so I run around trying to act like pork tenderloin sandwiches and the newscaster accent define an ethnicity. It's a little sad.
posted by mikeh at 7:07 AM on March 16, 2010
I'm pretty much 100% ethnically, socially, and culturally midwestern American so I run around trying to act like pork tenderloin sandwiches and the newscaster accent define an ethnicity.
This totally reminds me of that South Park episode where the town is battling the casino and the Native Americans give them all SARS blankets to wipe them out...and they beat SARS the "middle class white person" way, with NyQuil, Sprite, and Cambell's soup.
posted by phunniemee at 7:19 AM on March 16, 2010
This totally reminds me of that South Park episode where the town is battling the casino and the Native Americans give them all SARS blankets to wipe them out...and they beat SARS the "middle class white person" way, with NyQuil, Sprite, and Cambell's soup.
posted by phunniemee at 7:19 AM on March 16, 2010
I thought Iranians/Persians were classified as white.
Aryan
Caucasian
But as the film states, that doesn't help you get counted.
posted by Pollomacho at 7:21 AM on March 16, 2010
Aryan
Caucasian
But as the film states, that doesn't help you get counted.
posted by Pollomacho at 7:21 AM on March 16, 2010
In the U.S., everyone must be American. You can be a hyphenated American if you want, but it basically means you were last off the boat or haven't figured out how to fit in yet, or are some kind of warped soul who wants to stick out of the melting pot like a jagged bit of celery that just won't submerge into the stew.
As someone with an East Asian background, I frankly find this insulting. Let me tell you, I don't get a choice about my hyphenated American description. Not when the first question after my name from half the people I meet for the first time is "Where are you from?" Not when news headlines like "American beats Kwan" exist. And its just as bad, if not worse, when speaking with non-Americans. Everyone assumes that someone that looks East Asian hails from there, despite the fact that they've been present in North America since at least the 1700s. I've long since stopped bothering to correct people that "I'm an American," because the look of shock and discomfort it causes somehow makes me the bad guy.
I can do everything possible to "be American" (whatever that means exactly) and it won't mean squat to a sizeable portion of human population. So don't go turning this around like its somehow my fault that I can't assimilate, or that I'm a FOB, or that I'm some sort of "warped soul."
posted by shen1138 at 7:47 AM on March 16, 2010 [5 favorites]
As someone with an East Asian background, I frankly find this insulting. Let me tell you, I don't get a choice about my hyphenated American description. Not when the first question after my name from half the people I meet for the first time is "Where are you from?" Not when news headlines like "American beats Kwan" exist. And its just as bad, if not worse, when speaking with non-Americans. Everyone assumes that someone that looks East Asian hails from there, despite the fact that they've been present in North America since at least the 1700s. I've long since stopped bothering to correct people that "I'm an American," because the look of shock and discomfort it causes somehow makes me the bad guy.
I can do everything possible to "be American" (whatever that means exactly) and it won't mean squat to a sizeable portion of human population. So don't go turning this around like its somehow my fault that I can't assimilate, or that I'm a FOB, or that I'm some sort of "warped soul."
posted by shen1138 at 7:47 AM on March 16, 2010 [5 favorites]
But as the film states, that doesn't help you get counted.
Am I missing something? The question on the census only asks about "race," using very broad categories. I filled out my form last night, and there was no "Polish-American" box either.
Despite the truly mind-boggling propensity for humans to make nearly anyone into an "other," and no matter what my grandmother thought about what she deemed "swarthy" peoples, Persians, Arabs, Jews, Italians, Greeks, are "white" according to our current very broad classifications.
I'm not saying that people aren't racist towards Middle Eastern Peoples. I'm just saying that those racist people are not only racist, but extra-ignorant.
posted by desuetude at 8:00 AM on March 16, 2010
Am I missing something? The question on the census only asks about "race," using very broad categories. I filled out my form last night, and there was no "Polish-American" box either.
Despite the truly mind-boggling propensity for humans to make nearly anyone into an "other," and no matter what my grandmother thought about what she deemed "swarthy" peoples, Persians, Arabs, Jews, Italians, Greeks, are "white" according to our current very broad classifications.
I'm not saying that people aren't racist towards Middle Eastern Peoples. I'm just saying that those racist people are not only racist, but extra-ignorant.
posted by desuetude at 8:00 AM on March 16, 2010
shen1138, I agree that it is insulting as hell. It's not my intent to apply a hyphen to you or to anyone else, or to diminish you in any way. I am recounting the attitudes I experienced growing up in a fairly multi-cultural American region in the 70s and 80s.
There were some very difficult issues then which are getting somewhat better now. From my perspective now on the other side of the border, it seems to me that the idea of trying to eliminate one's heritage in order to fit in is simply folly and isn't necessary.
Back then, the only people I knew who felt it was important to maintain a cultural heritage were the Seminoles, the native Amerinds of the area. Even so, most of them just wanted to keep the "American" part of the world at arm's length, again not considering the possibility that ethnicity and nationality could co-exist orthogonally.
That's my point: the separation of heritage and citizenship, and the once predominant expectation that in order to be an American, you had to give up everything else.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:17 AM on March 16, 2010
There were some very difficult issues then which are getting somewhat better now. From my perspective now on the other side of the border, it seems to me that the idea of trying to eliminate one's heritage in order to fit in is simply folly and isn't necessary.
Back then, the only people I knew who felt it was important to maintain a cultural heritage were the Seminoles, the native Amerinds of the area. Even so, most of them just wanted to keep the "American" part of the world at arm's length, again not considering the possibility that ethnicity and nationality could co-exist orthogonally.
That's my point: the separation of heritage and citizenship, and the once predominant expectation that in order to be an American, you had to give up everything else.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:17 AM on March 16, 2010
bonehead: It's quite simple: ethnicity is where you|your pro-generators came from, nationality is Canadian. Ethnicity is a curiosity, nationality is what matters.
So ethnicity doesn't matter? I find that offensive.
What the heck is a chelokabob? I get the sense that I'm missing out on deliciousness.
posted by joedan at 8:24 AM on March 16, 2010
So ethnicity doesn't matter? I find that offensive.
What the heck is a chelokabob? I get the sense that I'm missing out on deliciousness.
posted by joedan at 8:24 AM on March 16, 2010
Or alternately:
What the heck is a chelokabob?
5 rials same as in town!
posted by Pollomacho at 9:58 AM on March 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
What the heck is a chelokabob?
5 rials same as in town!
posted by Pollomacho at 9:58 AM on March 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
I filled out my census form last night, and I paused at the race question. There has been a campaign for Taiwanese Americans to write-in "Taiwanese".
I... was conflicted. Ethnically I am Chinese. Han Chinese, specifically. I'm not Formosan; and Taiwanese is a nationality, and I'm an American citizen (through not a small amount of effort).
And those are just the facts; this isn't even bringing into the discussion issues of politics, or of the cultural identity specific to ex-pat Taiwanese that I'm not sure I want to attach myself to.
Ultimately I wrote-in "Taiwanese". Because I was born there, and because *I* want to have access to accurate data about the emigration of Taiwanese nationals. Listing myself as "Chinese" is accurate for the "ethnicity" question, and what I think my parents listed in the previous census (and only because there was an easy checkbox), but that's not the question being asked, I think.
posted by danny the boy at 11:31 AM on March 16, 2010
I... was conflicted. Ethnically I am Chinese. Han Chinese, specifically. I'm not Formosan; and Taiwanese is a nationality, and I'm an American citizen (through not a small amount of effort).
And those are just the facts; this isn't even bringing into the discussion issues of politics, or of the cultural identity specific to ex-pat Taiwanese that I'm not sure I want to attach myself to.
Ultimately I wrote-in "Taiwanese". Because I was born there, and because *I* want to have access to accurate data about the emigration of Taiwanese nationals. Listing myself as "Chinese" is accurate for the "ethnicity" question, and what I think my parents listed in the previous census (and only because there was an easy checkbox), but that's not the question being asked, I think.
posted by danny the boy at 11:31 AM on March 16, 2010
Forktime: I agree with what you wrote, up until your tl;dr: you need to give the people making those choices credit for not being stupid.
My experience is that this choice is often wrongheaded. As seanmpuckett said the idea of trying to eliminate one's heritage in order to fit in is simply folly and isn't necessary.
I have watched people go back at 25 to learn the language their parents spoke to each other, to cook the food that their parents rarely fed to them ("we serve our kids American food") -- and there's that traveling cliche: "I'm looking for my roots."
It's not like learning another language along with English harms fluency in either language. I bet it improves it by better feeding the child's natural curiosity, and giving her a larger vocabulary of words (ask any Latinate language speaker writing SATs or GREs) and a larger vocabulary of ideas (listen to any German speaker making a complicated point.) In fact, there are many ESL mefites whose English literacy is worlds above the American average.
Now, I don't find blame very interesting except when contrasting with an ideal. So, if we have to apportion blame, I would put some of it on misguided parents, and a large chunk of it on a prevailing American culture that faults distinctiveness.
posted by esprit de l'escalier at 12:06 PM on March 16, 2010
My experience is that this choice is often wrongheaded. As seanmpuckett said the idea of trying to eliminate one's heritage in order to fit in is simply folly and isn't necessary.
I have watched people go back at 25 to learn the language their parents spoke to each other, to cook the food that their parents rarely fed to them ("we serve our kids American food") -- and there's that traveling cliche: "I'm looking for my roots."
It's not like learning another language along with English harms fluency in either language. I bet it improves it by better feeding the child's natural curiosity, and giving her a larger vocabulary of words (ask any Latinate language speaker writing SATs or GREs) and a larger vocabulary of ideas (listen to any German speaker making a complicated point.) In fact, there are many ESL mefites whose English literacy is worlds above the American average.
Now, I don't find blame very interesting except when contrasting with an ideal. So, if we have to apportion blame, I would put some of it on misguided parents, and a large chunk of it on a prevailing American culture that faults distinctiveness.
posted by esprit de l'escalier at 12:06 PM on March 16, 2010
This is just baffling. You must be the only person to grow up in the US and somehow never meet anyone who was Irish, or Italian, or Polish.
I can't wait until tomorrow when the city is full of this guy. :)
posted by esprit de l'escalier at 12:12 PM on March 16, 2010
I can't wait until tomorrow when the city is full of this guy. :)
posted by esprit de l'escalier at 12:12 PM on March 16, 2010
Rob Schneider's Iranian? I had no idea!
Actually, Rob Schneider is a stapler.
posted by l33tpolicywonk at 12:54 PM on March 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Actually, Rob Schneider is a stapler.
posted by l33tpolicywonk at 12:54 PM on March 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
I thought Iranians/Persians were classified as white.
>Aryan
>Caucasian
What a bunch of mystical, mumbo jumbo bullshit. That is not to say there no differences between how people look from place to place - there are even genetic differences. However, the better way to classify or differentiate or trace similarities is via language, and even that doesn't work well most of the time.
posted by KokuRyu at 2:42 PM on March 16, 2010
>Aryan
>Caucasian
What a bunch of mystical, mumbo jumbo bullshit. That is not to say there no differences between how people look from place to place - there are even genetic differences. However, the better way to classify or differentiate or trace similarities is via language, and even that doesn't work well most of the time.
posted by KokuRyu at 2:42 PM on March 16, 2010
The U.S. is in between Canada and France on whatever scale of acknowledgment we're talking about, but if we consider "visible minorities," the U.S. is much more diverse than either...so there's that.
posted by kittyprecious at 10:02 AM on March 16 [+] [!]
The United States has a higher non-white population by proportion -- but that doesn't mean that the US is more diverse. It has a couple of large non-white populations (African-American, Hispanic -- the latter of whom are often counted as "white" in Canada), but Canada is more culturally diverse, in that there are more people in Canada who were born outside of the country. I think only Australia has a higher percentage of the population who are immigrants.
As for the earlier Olympics comment -- well, I was subjected to way too much Olympics during the Olympics, so you have my sympathy.
posted by jb at 3:48 PM on March 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by kittyprecious at 10:02 AM on March 16 [+] [!]
The United States has a higher non-white population by proportion -- but that doesn't mean that the US is more diverse. It has a couple of large non-white populations (African-American, Hispanic -- the latter of whom are often counted as "white" in Canada), but Canada is more culturally diverse, in that there are more people in Canada who were born outside of the country. I think only Australia has a higher percentage of the population who are immigrants.
As for the earlier Olympics comment -- well, I was subjected to way too much Olympics during the Olympics, so you have my sympathy.
posted by jb at 3:48 PM on March 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Canada is more culturally diverse, in that there are more people in Canada who were born outside of the country
Don't get me wrong, Canada probably is more culturally diverse than the US.
But a higher proportion of foreign-born residents doesn't show that. Just for fun, imagine a country whose "native people" are ethnically homogeneous. Let's say Japan. Now make that country 50% foreign born in addition to the ethnically homogeneous natives... sounds diverse, right? But if all of the foreign-born people are from the same place, and that place is also ethnically homogeneous (let's assume they're from Uber-Iceland that has enough people), then you have a country that's not very diverse -- half of them are Japanese, and half Uber-Icelandic.
To get a measure of diversity, what you'd want to do use is a herfindahl or shannon index.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:05 PM on March 16, 2010
Don't get me wrong, Canada probably is more culturally diverse than the US.
But a higher proportion of foreign-born residents doesn't show that. Just for fun, imagine a country whose "native people" are ethnically homogeneous. Let's say Japan. Now make that country 50% foreign born in addition to the ethnically homogeneous natives... sounds diverse, right? But if all of the foreign-born people are from the same place, and that place is also ethnically homogeneous (let's assume they're from Uber-Iceland that has enough people), then you have a country that's not very diverse -- half of them are Japanese, and half Uber-Icelandic.
To get a measure of diversity, what you'd want to do use is a herfindahl or shannon index.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:05 PM on March 16, 2010
the modern abandoning of culture for 'whiteness' is completely voluntary
Whoa! What? No!
When a way of speaking, eating, dressing, traveling and keeping up with the Joneses is afforded the alpha status in a culture, is it really voluntary for those who want part of that status (like the money, work hours, good schools for their kids, crime-free streets, but maybe not the hot dogs) to assimilate?
An immigrant from a poor country walks or takes the bus to ($100k+) work to leave his car home with his wife & two young kids and save some money for their education. However, when the crew wants a ride to lunch he's never the driver (or he's really smart & brings lunch from home or he's a genius & lives close enough to walk home for lunch w/ family). Is it voluntary to buy that Infiniti & eat out with the guys and not be passed over for a promotion as someone who doesn't quite fit in?
posted by morganw at 4:43 PM on March 16, 2010
Whoa! What? No!
When a way of speaking, eating, dressing, traveling and keeping up with the Joneses is afforded the alpha status in a culture, is it really voluntary for those who want part of that status (like the money, work hours, good schools for their kids, crime-free streets, but maybe not the hot dogs) to assimilate?
An immigrant from a poor country walks or takes the bus to ($100k+) work to leave his car home with his wife & two young kids and save some money for their education. However, when the crew wants a ride to lunch he's never the driver (or he's really smart & brings lunch from home or he's a genius & lives close enough to walk home for lunch w/ family). Is it voluntary to buy that Infiniti & eat out with the guys and not be passed over for a promotion as someone who doesn't quite fit in?
posted by morganw at 4:43 PM on March 16, 2010
What a bunch of mystical, mumbo jumbo bullshit.
Yeah, I know, I mean how rediculous is it that Western Europeans would claim they were aryans or caucasian?
posted by Pollomacho at 7:15 PM on March 16, 2010
Yeah, I know, I mean how rediculous is it that Western Europeans would claim they were aryans or caucasian?
posted by Pollomacho at 7:15 PM on March 16, 2010
Some people in west Asia look "white", others look "brown" (as in South Asian) and lots look inbetween. My ancestors are all from Britain, and I've been asked if I am Turkish; I've had an Iranian friend who was the same colour as me. But I have another Iranian friend who has the same skin tone as his Indian girlfriend. And this is why race is a crazy, non-scientific category. But we still use it to identify people, because being perceived as "white" or "not-white" still has a real effect on people's lives.
However, the video is talking about something else. It isn't talking about Iranian-Americans being recognised as visible minorities -- that is, being clumped together with other Asians into some kind of "brown" category. It's talking about having "Iranian" being recognised as its own category -- which really is an ethnic/cultural/language/national one (being deliberately vague in my language -- I don't want to debate who is "Iranian" or not). There is a large community of immigrants from Iran in the United States, and I understand the desire to be recognised as a significant part of the patchwork/melting pot just as Irish-Americans and Italian-Americans are recognised. And it is an important issue -- as the comic points out with humour, many immigrants from Iran have had strong reasons for not advertising themselves to the government. Sadly, this is not just because of Iran's recent history; after 2001, there were thousands of Iranian immigrants who found themselves targetted by the US gov't for detentions and registrations.
But as a demography geek, I would be more interested in redesigning the census to have everyone give their place of birth, and then some kind of self-identified category of "nationality/ethnicity" (being clear that this can be second to being American). Because it would get away from the silly race thing, and also because I'm curious as to how many Hakka or Palistinians or Georgians (or at least, persons who identify as such) are also in the United States.
posted by jb at 8:53 AM on March 17, 2010
However, the video is talking about something else. It isn't talking about Iranian-Americans being recognised as visible minorities -- that is, being clumped together with other Asians into some kind of "brown" category. It's talking about having "Iranian" being recognised as its own category -- which really is an ethnic/cultural/language/national one (being deliberately vague in my language -- I don't want to debate who is "Iranian" or not). There is a large community of immigrants from Iran in the United States, and I understand the desire to be recognised as a significant part of the patchwork/melting pot just as Irish-Americans and Italian-Americans are recognised. And it is an important issue -- as the comic points out with humour, many immigrants from Iran have had strong reasons for not advertising themselves to the government. Sadly, this is not just because of Iran's recent history; after 2001, there were thousands of Iranian immigrants who found themselves targetted by the US gov't for detentions and registrations.
But as a demography geek, I would be more interested in redesigning the census to have everyone give their place of birth, and then some kind of self-identified category of "nationality/ethnicity" (being clear that this can be second to being American). Because it would get away from the silly race thing, and also because I'm curious as to how many Hakka or Palistinians or Georgians (or at least, persons who identify as such) are also in the United States.
posted by jb at 8:53 AM on March 17, 2010
West Asians
Am I stupid? I have never heard this term before and I feel weird now that I've never heard it.
posted by anniecat at 8:54 AM on March 17, 2010
Am I stupid? I have never heard this term before and I feel weird now that I've never heard it.
posted by anniecat at 8:54 AM on March 17, 2010
The term "Southwest Asian"--and more broadly "Southwest Asian & North African" or SWANA, to lump together Arab and peri-Arab cultures--had something of a vogue in the last ten years (mostly in some U.S. queer communities), but West Asian does sound kind of inexact, yes.
posted by kittyprecious at 10:54 AM on March 17, 2010
posted by kittyprecious at 10:54 AM on March 17, 2010
(oh, and here's an amusing followup you might appreciate)
posted by kittyprecious at 10:57 AM on March 17, 2010
posted by kittyprecious at 10:57 AM on March 17, 2010
jb: "But as a demography geek, I would be more interested in redesigning the census to have everyone give their place of birth, and then some kind of self-identified category of "nationality/ethnicity" (being clear that this can be second to being American). Because it would get away from the silly race thing, and also because I'm curious as to how many Hakka or Palistinians or Georgians (or at least, persons who identify as such) are also in the United States."
OK, but what would African-Americans put on such a form? They were born here, their nationality is American, and I doubt most of them would classify their ethnicity as African. Yet it's really important to count them.
posted by desjardins at 4:27 PM on March 17, 2010
OK, but what would African-Americans put on such a form? They were born here, their nationality is American, and I doubt most of them would classify their ethnicity as African. Yet it's really important to count them.
posted by desjardins at 4:27 PM on March 17, 2010
desjardins -- That's a very interesting question. When I lived in the US, I found the use of "African-American" problematic. Sometimes it was used to refer to those who have a specific cultural heritage as well as race -- descendants of Africans who had lived in the US for generations. But sometimes it was used as a racial category and thus lumped all people of a certain skin colour together regardless of culture. This leads to strange moments -- I remember reading a short bit by a British historian of Carribean descent who was introduced as a "prominent African-American scholar". He corrected them -- he wasn't American -- so then they introduced him as a "prominent British African-American scholar."
I think that censuses should include race, because race may be a biological fiction, but it is (sadly) very much a social reality. But whereas ethnicity is really about how you perceive yourself, race is about how others see you. I remember reading an article by another black Briton all about how he had not felt at all "African American" when he first emigrated to the US, but living in the US (and interacting with the LAPD) made him realise that --as regards race-- his own perception of himself as British didn't matter as much as how others saw him.
posted by jb at 6:56 AM on March 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
I think that censuses should include race, because race may be a biological fiction, but it is (sadly) very much a social reality. But whereas ethnicity is really about how you perceive yourself, race is about how others see you. I remember reading an article by another black Briton all about how he had not felt at all "African American" when he first emigrated to the US, but living in the US (and interacting with the LAPD) made him realise that --as regards race-- his own perception of himself as British didn't matter as much as how others saw him.
posted by jb at 6:56 AM on March 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
(continuing comment -- stupid mobile device doesn't have cursor keys)
So, I think that I would ask on a census form questions about both race and ethnicity/heritage/culture. Indeed, I'd like to ask two questions on race -- one about self-perception, and the other about other-perception (which might occassionally be different). But that might be too complicated for a census.
posted by jb at 7:01 AM on March 18, 2010
So, I think that I would ask on a census form questions about both race and ethnicity/heritage/culture. Indeed, I'd like to ask two questions on race -- one about self-perception, and the other about other-perception (which might occassionally be different). But that might be too complicated for a census.
posted by jb at 7:01 AM on March 18, 2010
Just for reference, the form I received under race gave the following choices:
White
Black, African-American, or Negro
American Indian or Alaska Native - print name of principal tribe ____
Asian Indian
Japanese
Native Hawaiian
Chinese
Korean
Guamanian or Chamorro
Filipino
Vietnamese
Samoan
Other Asian - print race, for example, Hmong, Laotian, Thai, Pakistani, Cambodian, and so on ____
Other Pacific Islander - print race, for example, Fijian, Tongan, and so on ____
Some other race - print race ____
A seperate question asks if the person is of "Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish" origin.
posted by Pollomacho at 7:12 AM on March 18, 2010
White
Black, African-American, or Negro
American Indian or Alaska Native - print name of principal tribe ____
Asian Indian
Japanese
Native Hawaiian
Chinese
Korean
Guamanian or Chamorro
Filipino
Vietnamese
Samoan
Other Asian - print race, for example, Hmong, Laotian, Thai, Pakistani, Cambodian, and so on ____
Other Pacific Islander - print race, for example, Fijian, Tongan, and so on ____
Some other race - print race ____
A seperate question asks if the person is of "Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish" origin.
posted by Pollomacho at 7:12 AM on March 18, 2010
Also, you can check as many boxes as applicable.
posted by desjardins at 7:16 AM on March 18, 2010
posted by desjardins at 7:16 AM on March 18, 2010
Just to finish -- What got me really thinking about this issue is partly that I grew up in a partly Carribean-Canadian neighbourhood which over time gained a large Somalian community, as well as other African immigrants. The cultural differences, as you can imagine, were very stark. Then I moved to the US and lived in a neighborhood which was primarily what I increasingly thought of as "African-American" -- having lived in the US for hundreds of years, especially in the south (great collard greens at the local grocery).
One problem is -- the only word for this culture is "African-American", but that is also used as a racial category by some in the US. I think it is a bad racial category -- we should just let the cultural usage take over.
posted by jb at 7:17 AM on March 18, 2010
One problem is -- the only word for this culture is "African-American", but that is also used as a racial category by some in the US. I think it is a bad racial category -- we should just let the cultural usage take over.
posted by jb at 7:17 AM on March 18, 2010
Chinese is a race? But being Kenyan is not.
Seems to me a clunky question mixing race with ethnicity/nationality.
posted by jb at 7:20 AM on March 18, 2010
Seems to me a clunky question mixing race with ethnicity/nationality.
posted by jb at 7:20 AM on March 18, 2010
Also, you can check as many boxes as applicable.
In related news...
posted by Pollomacho at 7:24 AM on March 18, 2010
In related news...
posted by Pollomacho at 7:24 AM on March 18, 2010
One problem is -- the only word for this culture is "African-American", but that is also used as a racial category by some in the US.
Hmm, I wouldn't try and sneak that one past the first, second or third generation Trinis, Jamaicans, Hatians, Ethiopians, Eritreans, Somali, or the nth generation decendants of immigrants (forced or otherwise) of unknown African origin that are my neighbors.
posted by Pollomacho at 7:30 AM on March 18, 2010
Hmm, I wouldn't try and sneak that one past the first, second or third generation Trinis, Jamaicans, Hatians, Ethiopians, Eritreans, Somali, or the nth generation decendants of immigrants (forced or otherwise) of unknown African origin that are my neighbors.
posted by Pollomacho at 7:30 AM on March 18, 2010
Pollomacho -- that's what I'm saying -- all of those different people are lumped together by applying a term like "African-American" to them. It's like calling everyone from east or south-east Asia "Chinese".
posted by jb at 6:58 PM on March 18, 2010
posted by jb at 6:58 PM on March 18, 2010
You do have to like how the list has a few super-small ethnicities on it because they are territories of the U.S. Guamanian?
posted by smackfu at 8:14 PM on March 18, 2010
posted by smackfu at 8:14 PM on March 18, 2010
Just for reference, the form I received under race gave the following choices:
Wow. See, this is why i was confused. I thought I read this part really thoroughly, but still managed to somehow miss how arbitrary this list was, and how much it does NOT jibe with the stated purpose.
posted by desuetude at 9:39 PM on March 18, 2010
Wow. See, this is why i was confused. I thought I read this part really thoroughly, but still managed to somehow miss how arbitrary this list was, and how much it does NOT jibe with the stated purpose.
posted by desuetude at 9:39 PM on March 18, 2010
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