The Passion of David Bazan
September 23, 2010 8:41 AM Subscribe
David Bazan was the lead singer for a band called Pedro the Lion, who were big on the Christian rock circuit. A few years ago, Bazan began questioning his faith, and ultimately left Christianity. He has found understanding from his fans.
Maybe this is hair splitting, but I never saw Pedro The Lion as a "Christian rock" band so much as an "indie rock made by a Christian" band.
posted by Ian A.T. at 8:59 AM on September 23, 2010 [13 favorites]
posted by Ian A.T. at 8:59 AM on September 23, 2010 [13 favorites]
Ever since John Darnielle went balls-out with his rather complicated religiosity, I've grown fond of non-proselytizing music with a religious bent. I can appreciate it in the same way I can appreciate a love song about someone whose qualities I would never fall for. It says something about both the musician (NB: I've never listened to Pedro the Lion) and the sort of fans he attracts that he is able to musically convey his faith in such a way that losing it does not necessarily alienate his fans.
posted by griphus at 9:03 AM on September 23, 2010
posted by griphus at 9:03 AM on September 23, 2010
Just to follow up and beanplate a bit: I didn't mean that as snobbery. I just meant that if there's a spectrum with, like, Pavement on the left, and Idon'tknowlet'ssay Petra on the right, then there'd be an ambiguous middle ground. And I always saw Pedro The Lion as being a bit left of middle, whereas, say, Starflyer 59 would be a bit more to the right.
posted by Ian A.T. at 9:06 AM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Ian A.T. at 9:06 AM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Heh, Pedro the Lion is pretty much the only "Christian band" that I (an atheist) have ever liked. Just listening to the music itself it was never really clear that he ever would have fit in with the Cornerstone crowd, Secret of the Easy Yolk even his first album back in 1998 had lines like "But if all that's left is duty / I'm falling on my sword / At least then I would not serve / An unseen, distant Lord." And he followed that up with a concept album about a corrupt politician who murders his wife.
His albums were released on Jade Tree which is not a Christian Rock label, so I was actually pretty surprised when I first heard that he was big in Christian circles, where most of the songs are explicitly about praising Jesus and whatnot. I think some non-Christians never gave Pedro the Lion a chance, but in my opinion his songwriting has some of the same appeal as someone like Flannery O'Connor's short stories, there is sort of the underlying context of Christian faith there but most of the actual content is about human stories that don't necessarily need to be viewed from any particular ideological standing.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:08 AM on September 23, 2010 [3 favorites]
His albums were released on Jade Tree which is not a Christian Rock label, so I was actually pretty surprised when I first heard that he was big in Christian circles, where most of the songs are explicitly about praising Jesus and whatnot. I think some non-Christians never gave Pedro the Lion a chance, but in my opinion his songwriting has some of the same appeal as someone like Flannery O'Connor's short stories, there is sort of the underlying context of Christian faith there but most of the actual content is about human stories that don't necessarily need to be viewed from any particular ideological standing.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:08 AM on September 23, 2010 [3 favorites]
The article makes it sound as though he has actually found the opposite of understanding from his fans -- that they are constantly testing him, to see where he stands, to determine if he's far enough outside their belief system that they shouldn't listen to him, and that kids who hear his songs do mental gymnastics to turn them into examples of witnessing, so it's okay for them to listen to him. The only real understanding he seems to have gotten is from a Christian music promoter who put him on a bill at Cornerstone. He talks a good game, but, having known my share of promoters for whom the bottom line justifies everything, it's hard not to be cynical and wonder if he wasn't invited to the festival because he was once a reliable draw, and his fall from grace would sell tickets.
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:11 AM on September 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:11 AM on September 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
At least the kids still have Creed. Wait, they're not Christian? Well, I'll be.
And like Astro Zombie, I think it doesn't sound like he's found understanding from the fans, but rather from the festival director:
Like so many other people, they're trying to fit something they like into their worldview, and they've found a close enough fit to accept the artist and his music.
For a heavy dose of conflicting message, check out Low's song "Murderer" (lyrics). Low is a Mormon couple, and the song is someone offering themselves to God as a murderer, as God has more important things to do, "another fool," (well, I'm cruel.)
posted by filthy light thief at 9:15 AM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
And like Astro Zombie, I think it doesn't sound like he's found understanding from the fans, but rather from the festival director:
"I know David has a long history of being a seeker and trying to navigate through his faith. Cornerstone is open to that," says John Herrin, the festival's director. "We welcome plenty of musicians who may not identify themselves as Christians but are artists with an ongoing connection to faith. . . . We're glad to have him back. We don't give up on people; we don't give up on the kids here who are seeking, trying to figure out what they don't believe and what they do. This festival was built on patience."And even that sounds like Herrin is hoping Bazan will come back to Christ. The article says the kids are trying "to spin the new songs, straining to categorize them as Christian so they can justify continuing to listen to them." They say they can relate to him and the truth he speaks, "but they don't tend to delve into what exactly that truth might be."
Like so many other people, they're trying to fit something they like into their worldview, and they've found a close enough fit to accept the artist and his music.
For a heavy dose of conflicting message, check out Low's song "Murderer" (lyrics). Low is a Mormon couple, and the song is someone offering themselves to God as a murderer, as God has more important things to do, "another fool," (well, I'm cruel.)
posted by filthy light thief at 9:15 AM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Maybe this is hair splitting, but I never saw Pedro The Lion as a "Christian rock" band so much as an "indie rock made by a Christian" band.
Must confess I had no idea Pedro The Lion were Christian, much as it wasn't immediately apparent with U2 way back when. And I could toss a few others in as well. It speaks to the difference between playing to a set crowd and market of like-believers and actually making it in the cold cruel secular world, which, for what it's worth, has always struck me as far more Christlike.
And more to the point, it speaks to a split in Christianity: those who are so insecure in their beliefs that they can only hang with people that share them, that will smother them with care and protection, versus those who are not afraid of taking on the world in all its mystery, weirdness and wonder.
Of course, the counterargument is, "look what not enough fear of the world did to David Bazan's faith". To which I would reply with something like, "Hmmm? Well, God, assuming he even exists, is probably a hell of lot more interested in a person, believer or not, who graciously explores the limits of their curiosity than a person who just blindly, fearfully adheres to rules and regs from some old book that, let's face it, is probably a misinterpretation of HIS word anyway."
posted by philip-random at 9:15 AM on September 23, 2010 [4 favorites]
Must confess I had no idea Pedro The Lion were Christian, much as it wasn't immediately apparent with U2 way back when. And I could toss a few others in as well. It speaks to the difference between playing to a set crowd and market of like-believers and actually making it in the cold cruel secular world, which, for what it's worth, has always struck me as far more Christlike.
And more to the point, it speaks to a split in Christianity: those who are so insecure in their beliefs that they can only hang with people that share them, that will smother them with care and protection, versus those who are not afraid of taking on the world in all its mystery, weirdness and wonder.
Of course, the counterargument is, "look what not enough fear of the world did to David Bazan's faith". To which I would reply with something like, "Hmmm? Well, God, assuming he even exists, is probably a hell of lot more interested in a person, believer or not, who graciously explores the limits of their curiosity than a person who just blindly, fearfully adheres to rules and regs from some old book that, let's face it, is probably a misinterpretation of HIS word anyway."
posted by philip-random at 9:15 AM on September 23, 2010 [4 favorites]
I've tried for years to convince people of this (well, to be entirely honest I tried a few years ago and then stopped because who cares about a record that's 10 years old) but: I'm convinced that Winners Never Quit actually works much better as a concept album about the basic failures and blind spots of the contemporary Western Christian ethos than it does as the album Bazan (presumably) intended. It's intelligent and honest and empathetic about the fundamental absence of justice and sense in the universe, in the same way that Job is. Although I think both things kind of get there unintentionally.
There was always a kind of deep sensitivity to bitterness in Pedro the Lion that isn't in a lot of other indie stuff that has Christian tones, like Sufjan Stevens. I think Sufjan makes better music, to be sure, but still. Pedro had an interesting outlook. There's a way to make peace with the disordered unfairness of life from within Christianity, but it's not simple and it's not something that mainline churches spend a lot of time on. Or at least they don't spend a lot of time on coming up with positions that are rigorous and resonant, and aren't just repetitions of "God has a plan". So I guess I'm not really surprised that he eventually left religion. I'm glad his fans are still finding a way to be connected with him.
posted by penduluum at 9:18 AM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
There was always a kind of deep sensitivity to bitterness in Pedro the Lion that isn't in a lot of other indie stuff that has Christian tones, like Sufjan Stevens. I think Sufjan makes better music, to be sure, but still. Pedro had an interesting outlook. There's a way to make peace with the disordered unfairness of life from within Christianity, but it's not simple and it's not something that mainline churches spend a lot of time on. Or at least they don't spend a lot of time on coming up with positions that are rigorous and resonant, and aren't just repetitions of "God has a plan". So I guess I'm not really surprised that he eventually left religion. I'm glad his fans are still finding a way to be connected with him.
posted by penduluum at 9:18 AM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Weird - "Be Thou My Vision," the only Pedro the Lion song I have on my player, came on about three minutes ago. I never knew anything about the band or Bazan, I just like that song. And now this!
posted by CheeseLouise at 9:19 AM on September 23, 2010
posted by CheeseLouise at 9:19 AM on September 23, 2010
At least the kids still have Creed. Wait, they're not Christian? Well, I'll be.
Of course not. They're Stappian.
Of course my favorite band is U2, so I'm pretty much a raging hyprocite, except I always found Stapp's self-martydom so much more annoying than Bono's. Maybe because Bono has a sense of humor about it. Stapp always seemed so very very serious. The "With Arms Wide Open" video was jaw-droppingly over-earnest.
posted by kmz at 9:24 AM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Of course not. They're Stappian.
Of course my favorite band is U2, so I'm pretty much a raging hyprocite, except I always found Stapp's self-martydom so much more annoying than Bono's. Maybe because Bono has a sense of humor about it. Stapp always seemed so very very serious. The "With Arms Wide Open" video was jaw-droppingly over-earnest.
posted by kmz at 9:24 AM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
To a lot of people of faith -- both those that have it and those who have lost it -- answering questions about your faith -- that is explaining how you got to where you got -- isn't testing. It's what you do.
Unfortunately, you may be right that they are doing those mental gymnastics. But those who are taking things that literally might be a lost cause. Hopefully, being exposed to a different shade of the idea (because try as he might, even as non-believer, Bazan comes across far more Doubting Thomas than Madalyn Murray O'Hair) will open those up to question their faith. And that's a great gift, even if, maybe especially if, they end up believing.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:24 AM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Unfortunately, you may be right that they are doing those mental gymnastics. But those who are taking things that literally might be a lost cause. Hopefully, being exposed to a different shade of the idea (because try as he might, even as non-believer, Bazan comes across far more Doubting Thomas than Madalyn Murray O'Hair) will open those up to question their faith. And that's a great gift, even if, maybe especially if, they end up believing.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:24 AM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
"Would you like to see the Pope on the end of a rope..."
posted by clavdivs at 9:33 AM on September 23, 2010
posted by clavdivs at 9:33 AM on September 23, 2010
philip-random: And more to the point, it speaks to a split in Christianity: those who are so insecure in their beliefs that they can only hang with people that share them, that will smother them with care and protection, versus those who are not afraid of taking on the world in all its mystery, weirdness and wonder.
I like to think of it as THE split. There aren't very many times I welcome an us vs. them situation but in this case, bring it on, as they say.
But I think that's the whole issue with that other type of Christian (the insecure kind) anyway and how I don't understand the appeal. As someone who is only vaguely familiar with Pedro the Lion and a lot less familiar with any music that calls itself "Christian _____" what I found most interesting about the article as a whole is how, well, religious David Bazan seems. I feel like if he'd had a different kind of faith to begin with, he wouldn't have ended up with a crisis of it.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:38 AM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
I like to think of it as THE split. There aren't very many times I welcome an us vs. them situation but in this case, bring it on, as they say.
But I think that's the whole issue with that other type of Christian (the insecure kind) anyway and how I don't understand the appeal. As someone who is only vaguely familiar with Pedro the Lion and a lot less familiar with any music that calls itself "Christian _____" what I found most interesting about the article as a whole is how, well, religious David Bazan seems. I feel like if he'd had a different kind of faith to begin with, he wouldn't have ended up with a crisis of it.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:38 AM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Pedro the Lion was never Christian Rock as the term is generally interpreted, as others have said. Most Christian Rock that crosses over is because the songs about Jesus are vague enough that they sound like they could be generic love songs. Pedro the Lion has many fantastic songs that have religious imagery in them, but aren't even focused on religion as the main point.
Recommended Pedro the Lion listening for the curious-- Indian Summer, Criticism as Inspiration, Big Trucks, I Am Always the One Who Calls, Of Minor Prophets and their Prostitute Wives, Penetration.
posted by haveanicesummer at 10:03 AM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Recommended Pedro the Lion listening for the curious-- Indian Summer, Criticism as Inspiration, Big Trucks, I Am Always the One Who Calls, Of Minor Prophets and their Prostitute Wives, Penetration.
posted by haveanicesummer at 10:03 AM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Here's the funny thing. A lot of music that gets lumped together as "not really Christian rock" is actually a lot more explicitly religious than what gets unproblematically promoted as Christian rock. When you listen to DC Talk or Point of Grace or whatever (I guess these are now fifteen-year-old examples, feel free to update them), you can count the mentions of God; you can tell when the next hat-tip to Jesus is coming in an album. It's almost like they were focus grouped. Compare that do the unabashed reverence of Sufjan's Seven Swans, or anything Danielson or Five Iron Frenzy has ever produced.
posted by roll truck roll at 10:22 AM on September 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by roll truck roll at 10:22 AM on September 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
philip-random: ""Hmmm? Well, God, assuming he even exists, is probably a hell of lot more interested in a person, believer or not, who graciously explores the limits of their curiosity than a person who just blindly, fearfully adheres to rules and regs from some old book that, let's face it, is probably a misinterpretation of HIS word anyway.""
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." -Thomas Jeffersonposted by notsnot at 10:54 AM on September 23, 2010
When Leslie Phillips (now Sam Phillips) went through this 25 years ago, the entire industry and fan base turned their backs on her pretty much immediately. Which was a shame, because The Turning is one of the best, most honest albums to come out of that era of Christian music, and her subsequent career as Sam has been full of delightful introspective music.
I really, really love Martinis and Bikinis.
posted by Devils Rancher at 11:01 AM on September 23, 2010
I really, really love Martinis and Bikinis.
posted by Devils Rancher at 11:01 AM on September 23, 2010
""Hmmm? Well, God, assuming he even exists, is probably a hell of lot more interested in a person, believer or not, who graciously explores the limits of their curiosity than a person who just blindly, fearfully adheres to rules and regs from some old book that, let's face it, is probably a misinterpretation of HIS word anyway.""
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." -Thomas Jefferson
While I very much agree with those sentiments, isn't it foolish to ascribe any kind of approval to a higher being we're questioning the existence of? Am I the only one that seems weird to? Like... "If there is this higher power, SURELY IT IS THE WAY I THINK IT IS"
posted by kingbenny at 11:05 AM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." -Thomas Jefferson
While I very much agree with those sentiments, isn't it foolish to ascribe any kind of approval to a higher being we're questioning the existence of? Am I the only one that seems weird to? Like... "If there is this higher power, SURELY IT IS THE WAY I THINK IT IS"
posted by kingbenny at 11:05 AM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Good for him. I've been waiting for Bazan to get over the "conflicted-about-Christianity-where-are-you-jesus" stage for a long time. (Bad Things to Such Good People by Pedro the Lion)
posted by thescientificmethhead at 11:09 AM on September 23, 2010
posted by thescientificmethhead at 11:09 AM on September 23, 2010
"If there is this higher power, SURELY IT IS THE WAY I THINK IT IS"
Trust me, you don't want that.
posted by FatherDagon at 11:26 AM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Trust me, you don't want that.
posted by FatherDagon at 11:26 AM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
...and on a rainy afternoon in Tampa, Glen Benton gazed into his bathroom mirror and re-evaluated his life choices....
posted by BitterOldPunk at 12:06 PM on September 23, 2010
posted by BitterOldPunk at 12:06 PM on September 23, 2010
Let me speak to this "split" idea since I am a songwriter and a Christian, AND a "Christian Songwriter."
There are two kinds of "Christian" music right out of the box. The first category is Worship music. This is meant to be music used in the church in a worship service. There are two subcategories: Congregational (that meant for the congregation to join in with) and (for lack of a better term "special" music-that's something sung by a soloist or a small group. Lots of times you might have "special music" during the offering. Okay, all that type is supposed to be and is meant to be strictly for God and for His people and needs to be, well, blatantly Christian.
The second category would be everything else. Now, sometimes, this "everything else" can be pulled out and used inside the church (heck, that Buckley song Hallelujah was used as an offering song last month in my church o_0) but really, this can run the gamut from a personal love song to Jesus to something that doesn't even mention God at all.
Personally, I generally intentionally write for the first category but have written stuff that could comfortably fit into the second. Some folks prefer to only listen to blatantly Christian music as that is Biblically part of our faith ("psalms, hymms and spiritual songs) and we are commanded to "make melody in our hearts to the Lord." As such, that is part and parcel of faith and practice. Others of us listen to just about any style, and are not averse to blatantly secular stuff (hopefully, being a bit choosey about what is selected.)
I enjoy and would like to see more people write quality stuff in the second category. But I think it is wrong and cruel to say that people who only listen to the first category are insecure.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 12:26 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
There are two kinds of "Christian" music right out of the box. The first category is Worship music. This is meant to be music used in the church in a worship service. There are two subcategories: Congregational (that meant for the congregation to join in with) and (for lack of a better term "special" music-that's something sung by a soloist or a small group. Lots of times you might have "special music" during the offering. Okay, all that type is supposed to be and is meant to be strictly for God and for His people and needs to be, well, blatantly Christian.
The second category would be everything else. Now, sometimes, this "everything else" can be pulled out and used inside the church (heck, that Buckley song Hallelujah was used as an offering song last month in my church o_0) but really, this can run the gamut from a personal love song to Jesus to something that doesn't even mention God at all.
Personally, I generally intentionally write for the first category but have written stuff that could comfortably fit into the second. Some folks prefer to only listen to blatantly Christian music as that is Biblically part of our faith ("psalms, hymms and spiritual songs) and we are commanded to "make melody in our hearts to the Lord." As such, that is part and parcel of faith and practice. Others of us listen to just about any style, and are not averse to blatantly secular stuff (hopefully, being a bit choosey about what is selected.)
I enjoy and would like to see more people write quality stuff in the second category. But I think it is wrong and cruel to say that people who only listen to the first category are insecure.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 12:26 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Heresy! Anathema!
actually Buckley's version isn't too bad
posted by Devils Rancher at 12:39 PM on September 23, 2010
actually Buckley's version isn't too bad
posted by Devils Rancher at 12:39 PM on September 23, 2010
(Was it Cohen that wrote it? Can't remember...)
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 12:41 PM on September 23, 2010
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 12:41 PM on September 23, 2010
Body Piercing Saved My Life is a great book on Christian Rock from the 70s to the 00s written by Andrew Beaujon of Eggs (non)fame. I was never a Pedro fan, really, but it's good that dude is playing again.
posted by sleepy pete at 12:45 PM on September 23, 2010
posted by sleepy pete at 12:45 PM on September 23, 2010
actually Buckley's version isn't too bad
Best possible version
posted by burnmp3s at 12:45 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best possible version
posted by burnmp3s at 12:45 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Huh, I saw David Bazan in concert within the last year or so and didn't realize that he wasn't a Christian artist anymore (I'm not religious, but I do like Bazan, Sufjan Stevens, and similar).
posted by naoko at 12:46 PM on September 23, 2010
posted by naoko at 12:46 PM on September 23, 2010
Heresy! Anathema!
actually Buckley's version isn't too bad
posted by Devils Rancher at 12:39 PM on September 23
(Was it Cohen that wrote it? Can't remember...)
Yaweh wrote Hallelujah. Cohen just channeled it.
posted by philip-random at 12:48 PM on September 23, 2010
actually Buckley's version isn't too bad
posted by Devils Rancher at 12:39 PM on September 23
(Was it Cohen that wrote it? Can't remember...)
Yaweh wrote Hallelujah. Cohen just channeled it.
posted by philip-random at 12:48 PM on September 23, 2010
hippybear, the sad truth is that I don't think the folks that did it understood that. If I ever were going to have a coronary in church, that would have been the day. ;-)
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 1:15 PM on September 23, 2010
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 1:15 PM on September 23, 2010
(I like the song BUT NOT IN CHURCH)
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 1:15 PM on September 23, 2010
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 1:15 PM on September 23, 2010
my husband was a huge fan of leslie phillips, and he recovered from christianity around the same time she became sam phillips. she's constantly doing amazing stuff, and she even comes around for little live shows now and then.
posted by fallacy of the beard at 1:36 PM on September 23, 2010
posted by fallacy of the beard at 1:36 PM on September 23, 2010
kingbenny: “While I very much agree with those sentiments, isn't it foolish to ascribe any kind of approval to a higher being we're questioning the existence of? Am I the only one that seems weird to?”
You're misunderstanding Jefferson, I think: it's not Pascal's Wager (which would be tenuous) but it is a minor corrolary – he's playing it safe. That is, he's not assuming anything about whether God exists. If there is no God, there's no one to please anyway. Jefferson's point is that even if there is a God, he can't but be pleased by reasonable inquiry and rational consideration of the question of his existence; and if he doesn't exist, it doesn't matter anyway, so why not?
There are probably problems with the equation, but they have to do with the fact he's assuming that God would match his notion of benevolence. But that's a common enough assumption, anyway.
posted by koeselitz at 1:43 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
You're misunderstanding Jefferson, I think: it's not Pascal's Wager (which would be tenuous) but it is a minor corrolary – he's playing it safe. That is, he's not assuming anything about whether God exists. If there is no God, there's no one to please anyway. Jefferson's point is that even if there is a God, he can't but be pleased by reasonable inquiry and rational consideration of the question of his existence; and if he doesn't exist, it doesn't matter anyway, so why not?
There are probably problems with the equation, but they have to do with the fact he's assuming that God would match his notion of benevolence. But that's a common enough assumption, anyway.
posted by koeselitz at 1:43 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
St. Alia of the Bunnies: “(heck, that Buckley song Hallelujah was used as an offering song last month in my church o_0)”
Yeah, this is happening a lot, I notice, because of that Lincoln Brewster cover that seems to be remarkably popular in modern churches. It probably goes without saying that I don't like it much myself; it just feels like piggybacking on a popular meme solely because it happens to be popular at the moment. This is one of the chief problems with what used to be called "contemporary Christian music." They keep telling me "why should the devil have all the good music?" I keep wondering "why in the world can't we have our own?"
posted by koeselitz at 1:49 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yeah, this is happening a lot, I notice, because of that Lincoln Brewster cover that seems to be remarkably popular in modern churches. It probably goes without saying that I don't like it much myself; it just feels like piggybacking on a popular meme solely because it happens to be popular at the moment. This is one of the chief problems with what used to be called "contemporary Christian music." They keep telling me "why should the devil have all the good music?" I keep wondering "why in the world can't we have our own?"
posted by koeselitz at 1:49 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
philip-random: “And more to the point, it speaks to a split in Christianity: those who are so insecure in their beliefs that they can only hang with people that share them, that will smother them with care and protection, versus those who are not afraid of taking on the world in all its mystery, weirdness and wonder. Of course, the counterargument is, ‘look what not enough fear of the world did to David Bazan's faith’. To which I would reply with something like, ‘Hmmm? Well, God, assuming he even exists, is probably a hell of lot more interested in a person, believer or not, who graciously explores the limits of their curiosity than a person who just blindly, fearfully adheres to rules and regs from some old book that, let's face it, is probably a misinterpretation of HIS word anyway.’”
MCMikeNamara: “I like to think of it as THE split. There aren't very many times I welcome an us vs. them situation but in this case, bring it on, as they say. But I think that's the whole issue with that other type of Christian (the insecure kind) anyway and how I don't understand the appeal. As someone who is only vaguely familiar with Pedro the Lion and a lot less familiar with any music that calls itself ‘Christian _____’ what I found most interesting about the article as a whole is how, well, religious David Bazan seems. I feel like if he'd had a different kind of faith to begin with, he wouldn't have ended up with a crisis of it.”
I find this whole subject very interesting. One notes that this is how 'evangelicalism' chooses to identify itself from the start – in reference to the verbing of the the name for the good news, and in honor of the part of the Bible they see as most important, the section which they tellingly call "the Great Commission." It's worth noting that this emphasis on the outward drive of faith – the drive to convert others, the drive to make sure those around us have accepted our own faith – has not been generally shared by Christians, and is still not shared by most sects of the faith; in fact, it's only among these late Protestants that this small section of the Bible is called "the Great Commission" at all.
Among the Orthodox Christians, interestingly enough, to proselytize and to push one's faith on others is seen as a sign of haughtiness and of arrogance; to the stated evangelical goal of trying to save as many souls as possible, the common Orthodox retort is a quotation from St Seraphim of Sarov: "Save yourself, and thousands around you will be saved."
posted by koeselitz at 2:11 PM on September 23, 2010
MCMikeNamara: “I like to think of it as THE split. There aren't very many times I welcome an us vs. them situation but in this case, bring it on, as they say. But I think that's the whole issue with that other type of Christian (the insecure kind) anyway and how I don't understand the appeal. As someone who is only vaguely familiar with Pedro the Lion and a lot less familiar with any music that calls itself ‘Christian _____’ what I found most interesting about the article as a whole is how, well, religious David Bazan seems. I feel like if he'd had a different kind of faith to begin with, he wouldn't have ended up with a crisis of it.”
I find this whole subject very interesting. One notes that this is how 'evangelicalism' chooses to identify itself from the start – in reference to the verbing of the the name for the good news, and in honor of the part of the Bible they see as most important, the section which they tellingly call "the Great Commission." It's worth noting that this emphasis on the outward drive of faith – the drive to convert others, the drive to make sure those around us have accepted our own faith – has not been generally shared by Christians, and is still not shared by most sects of the faith; in fact, it's only among these late Protestants that this small section of the Bible is called "the Great Commission" at all.
Among the Orthodox Christians, interestingly enough, to proselytize and to push one's faith on others is seen as a sign of haughtiness and of arrogance; to the stated evangelical goal of trying to save as many souls as possible, the common Orthodox retort is a quotation from St Seraphim of Sarov: "Save yourself, and thousands around you will be saved."
posted by koeselitz at 2:11 PM on September 23, 2010
argh, there should be a </em> after "... he wouldn't have ended up with a crisis of it." - mods?
posted by koeselitz at 2:13 PM on September 23, 2010
posted by koeselitz at 2:13 PM on September 23, 2010
koeselitz, seeing as how Jesus directly COMMANDED the gospel to be preached in all nations....
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:55 PM on September 23, 2010
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:55 PM on September 23, 2010
Ha, thescientificmethod! I don't think Bazan has gotten over anything, not with lyrics like this
i dreamt that for eternity
my family would burn
Christianity Today's article from January touches on that. He says that Christianity and such is "still the central question of my life," and I can't help but think he's going to keep on wrestling.
Bazan's earlier albums were my comfort and accompaniment as I sorted through the debris of cultural Christianity to find the other possibilities of Christian faith. His public shift in belief is completely understandable, and the fact that there are so many articles about it just reinforces how personally relevant his stuff was to people's lives, especially folks who found themselves at odds with the cheerful gift shop style of worship and the politically charged cultural brigade that patrolled the aisles between pews (metaphorically speaking). And relevant enough so that not only have I discussed it with people, but it's also something that I've discussed with people about other people. As in, "hey, has so and so heard about Pedro yet, and what does he think about it?"
I know better than to put any figure up as a religious icon, but dude was a big deal, and his albums (including the most recent one) completely nailed several sets of complex and even contradictory emotions. Curse Your Branches takes it all back to free will, and once again ends up poking at my softest spots, those areas where all the puzzle pieces I'd managed to piece together about my beliefs just won't fit everything correctly.
Bazan played in Portland a couple weeks ago, and the opening band was called Damion Suomi and the Minor Prophets. I keep on wanting to describe them as Post-Christian Drinking Songs, but where Bazan is traveling through the valley of the shadow of disbelief, this was just a band of guys who were like, fuck it, we've got whiskey and we've got each other and we're just gonna sing our asses off. They might not even be "Post-Christian," technically, but alls I know is that they had a footstomping number that went something like "There is no Holy Ghost, there is no Holy Ghost, there is no Holy Ghost inside of me," and it was literally the most scandalous thing I have ever seen. I was excited and yet petrified that lightning might strike them down. It was great.
posted by redsparkler at 6:05 PM on September 23, 2010 [3 favorites]
i dreamt that for eternity
my family would burn
Christianity Today's article from January touches on that. He says that Christianity and such is "still the central question of my life," and I can't help but think he's going to keep on wrestling.
Bazan's earlier albums were my comfort and accompaniment as I sorted through the debris of cultural Christianity to find the other possibilities of Christian faith. His public shift in belief is completely understandable, and the fact that there are so many articles about it just reinforces how personally relevant his stuff was to people's lives, especially folks who found themselves at odds with the cheerful gift shop style of worship and the politically charged cultural brigade that patrolled the aisles between pews (metaphorically speaking). And relevant enough so that not only have I discussed it with people, but it's also something that I've discussed with people about other people. As in, "hey, has so and so heard about Pedro yet, and what does he think about it?"
I know better than to put any figure up as a religious icon, but dude was a big deal, and his albums (including the most recent one) completely nailed several sets of complex and even contradictory emotions. Curse Your Branches takes it all back to free will, and once again ends up poking at my softest spots, those areas where all the puzzle pieces I'd managed to piece together about my beliefs just won't fit everything correctly.
Bazan played in Portland a couple weeks ago, and the opening band was called Damion Suomi and the Minor Prophets. I keep on wanting to describe them as Post-Christian Drinking Songs, but where Bazan is traveling through the valley of the shadow of disbelief, this was just a band of guys who were like, fuck it, we've got whiskey and we've got each other and we're just gonna sing our asses off. They might not even be "Post-Christian," technically, but alls I know is that they had a footstomping number that went something like "There is no Holy Ghost, there is no Holy Ghost, there is no Holy Ghost inside of me," and it was literally the most scandalous thing I have ever seen. I was excited and yet petrified that lightning might strike them down. It was great.
posted by redsparkler at 6:05 PM on September 23, 2010 [3 favorites]
Oh, hey, look, Damion Suomi on Myspace. For when you get feisty, and your roommate won't let you listen to the same Pedro song over and over and over.
posted by redsparkler at 6:10 PM on September 23, 2010
posted by redsparkler at 6:10 PM on September 23, 2010
St. Alia of the Bunnies: “koeselitz, seeing as how Jesus directly COMMANDED the gospel to be preached in all nations....”
(1) Who did he command? The same people he commanded to forgive sins. People who have attained their salvation. The question of whether any of us has attained salvation is a question which no one but God (and perhaps someone as wise as the prophets) can answer. (2) Is it so easy? St Seraphim's admonition isn't an idle one; he says "save yourself, and thousands around you will be saved." The teaching is clear: the way to preach the gospel to all the nations is to look to your own soul and its salvation, continually and constantly striving for it. This is a teaching that frankly seems well attested in the sayings of the Christ. (3) I challenge the reference to this event as "the Great Commission" because that implies that is the Christ's greatest commandment, and I don't know that it is. I have serious doubts on this point.
posted by koeselitz at 6:37 PM on September 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
(1) Who did he command? The same people he commanded to forgive sins. People who have attained their salvation. The question of whether any of us has attained salvation is a question which no one but God (and perhaps someone as wise as the prophets) can answer. (2) Is it so easy? St Seraphim's admonition isn't an idle one; he says "save yourself, and thousands around you will be saved." The teaching is clear: the way to preach the gospel to all the nations is to look to your own soul and its salvation, continually and constantly striving for it. This is a teaching that frankly seems well attested in the sayings of the Christ. (3) I challenge the reference to this event as "the Great Commission" because that implies that is the Christ's greatest commandment, and I don't know that it is. I have serious doubts on this point.
posted by koeselitz at 6:37 PM on September 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
But I think it is wrong and cruel to say that people who only listen to the first category are insecure.
Cruel I think I might agree with; wrong I'm not sure about. It goes to the question of one's attitude toward doubt: Is doubt itself an evil? A demon to be fought and conquered for once and all? Or is it more of an exercise, to be wrestled with regularly in order to stay strong?
If the former, then it is wisest to keep one's faith uncorrupted, pure, a refuge from the poison of the world. Of course the simple inversion of this sentiment is that such disengagement suggests fear, weakness---a spun sugar creed that can't stand a raindrop.
That's an eternal struggle that all religions go through, I think, and which an individual tends tend to is temperament I think as much as theology....
posted by Diablevert at 6:56 PM on September 23, 2010
Cruel I think I might agree with; wrong I'm not sure about. It goes to the question of one's attitude toward doubt: Is doubt itself an evil? A demon to be fought and conquered for once and all? Or is it more of an exercise, to be wrestled with regularly in order to stay strong?
If the former, then it is wisest to keep one's faith uncorrupted, pure, a refuge from the poison of the world. Of course the simple inversion of this sentiment is that such disengagement suggests fear, weakness---a spun sugar creed that can't stand a raindrop.
That's an eternal struggle that all religions go through, I think, and which an individual tends tend to is temperament I think as much as theology....
posted by Diablevert at 6:56 PM on September 23, 2010
The only time I saw Pedro the Lion play was actually on September 11, 2001. (I'm still surprised that show didn't get cancelled.) I distinctly remember someone in the crowd shouting something to Bazan about Christianity, and him rather calmly suggesting that if they would like to talk about faith with him, he'd be willing to do so after the show. That cemented to me that he himself though of Pedro the Lion as an "indie project by a Christian" more so than a "Christian music project."
posted by axiom at 7:45 PM on September 23, 2010
posted by axiom at 7:45 PM on September 23, 2010
I might have missed a link earlier in this thread, but if you're into Bazan and his faith / unfaith / whatever, there was a good (short) piece in the Chicago Reader last summer, The Passion of David Bazan.
posted by Alt F4 at 10:49 PM on September 23, 2010
posted by Alt F4 at 10:49 PM on September 23, 2010
I'm a moron and missed in the original post. Derp. (Figured the OP was posting something new.)
posted by Alt F4 at 10:51 PM on September 23, 2010
posted by Alt F4 at 10:51 PM on September 23, 2010
The question of whether any of us has attained salvation is a question which no one but God (and perhaps someone as wise as the prophets) can answer.
see, theologically I disagree totally with that statement. But this is probably not the venue for THAT discussion.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:18 AM on September 24, 2010
see, theologically I disagree totally with that statement. But this is probably not the venue for THAT discussion.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:18 AM on September 24, 2010
or, maybe I should say we might not be sure about someone else's but we can get sure about our own...the Bible makes it clear we don't need to be tormented about the topic.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:19 AM on September 24, 2010
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:19 AM on September 24, 2010
Bazan's political songs are always pretty good. Check out american flags.
Also, he might have been wrestling with his faith forever, but most of his output seemed to be about the fact that he's never been able to see any evidence of god, regardless of his faith. From “beer and cigarettes”(from 2006):
Also, he might have been wrestling with his faith forever, but most of his output seemed to be about the fact that he's never been able to see any evidence of god, regardless of his faith. From “beer and cigarettes”(from 2006):
Our car's on fire in the parking lotposted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 7:51 AM on September 24, 2010
And nobody wants it to rain
But God isn't listening
So all of the windshields glisten
The water and oil mix
Causing the fire to spread
To five or six innocent automobiles
Waiting in their nearby spots
What a cruel God we've got
redsparkler, this song is exactly what I needed right now. Thank you for leading me to it.
posted by EarBucket at 6:51 AM on September 25, 2010
posted by EarBucket at 6:51 AM on September 25, 2010
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posted by knile at 8:52 AM on September 23, 2010