Whaling in the Antarctic (Australia v. Japan: New Zealand intervening)
July 8, 2013 6:49 AM Subscribe
A case currently before the International Court of Justice has Australia (supported by New Zealand) seeking to either stop the flagrant abuse of a loophole in the International Whaling Commission's rules by Japan, or a nasty cultural imperialist "moral crusade" attempt to suppress a sustainable, ancient tradition of killing whales with factory ships around Antarctica.
You can watch Court arguments here.
"Tradition" should be automatically disallowed when it involves killing living creatures. Just sayin.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:39 AM on July 8, 2013
posted by Thorzdad at 7:39 AM on July 8, 2013
...ancient tradition of killing whales with factory ships around Antarctica.
How ancient is the tradition of factory ships sailing from Japan to the Antarctic? Gosh, it goes allll the way back to the 1930s!
How ancient is the tradition of factory ships sailing from Japan to the Antarctic? Gosh, it goes allll the way back to the 1930s!
Factory ships were not used by Japan until the 1930s. As whale catches diminished in coastal waters, Japan looked to Antarctica. Toyo Hogei K.K. purchased the Norwegian factory ship, Antarctic, renaming it the Tonan Maru in 1934. -- Wikipediaposted by DU at 7:40 AM on July 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
Japanese coastal whaling makes sense, but the pelagic hunt is a mix of domestic political pandering and an attempt to create a foreign policy tool.
posted by KokuRyu at 7:53 AM on July 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by KokuRyu at 7:53 AM on July 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
Anyone that tells you that factory ship hunting of great whales is sustainable is lying through their teeth. Great whales simply live too long and breed too slowly.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 7:54 AM on July 8, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by Benny Andajetz at 7:54 AM on July 8, 2013 [7 favorites]
"Tradition" should be automatically disallowed when it involves killing living creatures. Just sayin.
Yikes - - there goes our animal and plant food sources!
posted by fairmettle at 8:12 AM on July 8, 2013 [6 favorites]
Yikes - - there goes our animal and plant food sources!
posted by fairmettle at 8:12 AM on July 8, 2013 [6 favorites]
I really don't envy the agents for Japan here. I know it's their job to make these arguments, but ugh, what an unpleasant task. There are a small handful of exceptions to the whaling ban, but what Japan's doing doesn't fall under any of them and everyone knows it.
posted by 1adam12 at 8:20 AM on July 8, 2013
posted by 1adam12 at 8:20 AM on July 8, 2013
Yikes - - there goes our animal and plant food sources!
Details, details.
posted by brennen at 8:33 AM on July 8, 2013
Details, details.
posted by brennen at 8:33 AM on July 8, 2013
The "whales are people too" argument just doesn't wash with Japanese folks, the vast majority of whom don't eat whale and don't really care about the fishery. But they do care when their "traditions" are attacked by what they see as hypocritical cultural imperialists from the West trying to impose their own values on, let's face it, non-white subordinate countries.
So, "eating" whale meat becomes some sort of rite of Japanese-ness. Generic "whale" will be sold as a side dish at some pub, and every drunk coworker will encourage the foreigner (me) to eat the whale, just to prove that I won't they will.
My wife ate the stuff when she was in elementary school. The post-war years leading up to the boom of the 1980's saw Japan struggling to feed itself. It's hard to believe, but there was a time when bluefin tuna was not really recognized as food in most parts of Japan (save for Aomori, where there is a local bluefin fishery), so the country decided to develop a pelagic fishing fleet to feed itself.
Whale was part of the solution. Plentiful and cheap, it provided protein to children in a country that experienced maybe 70% of the caloric intake of Americans until just a generation ago.
Good on Aus and NZ for taking on Japan, but hopefully they will ditch the traditional racist imagery associated with the Japanese hunt.
posted by KokuRyu at 8:46 AM on July 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
So, "eating" whale meat becomes some sort of rite of Japanese-ness. Generic "whale" will be sold as a side dish at some pub, and every drunk coworker will encourage the foreigner (me) to eat the whale, just to prove that I won't they will.
My wife ate the stuff when she was in elementary school. The post-war years leading up to the boom of the 1980's saw Japan struggling to feed itself. It's hard to believe, but there was a time when bluefin tuna was not really recognized as food in most parts of Japan (save for Aomori, where there is a local bluefin fishery), so the country decided to develop a pelagic fishing fleet to feed itself.
Whale was part of the solution. Plentiful and cheap, it provided protein to children in a country that experienced maybe 70% of the caloric intake of Americans until just a generation ago.
Good on Aus and NZ for taking on Japan, but hopefully they will ditch the traditional racist imagery associated with the Japanese hunt.
posted by KokuRyu at 8:46 AM on July 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
The "tradition" argument is a loser even in Japan. Whale meat consumption peaked in the early 60s, and a huge amount of the (only) 800-900 whales caught today goes unsold and uneaten.
A big political reason behind protecting Japanese whaling is that many Japanese politicians fear that if they capitulate on their "right" to hunt whales, severe limits on bluefin tuna will be the next thing down the pike.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 9:09 AM on July 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
A big political reason behind protecting Japanese whaling is that many Japanese politicians fear that if they capitulate on their "right" to hunt whales, severe limits on bluefin tuna will be the next thing down the pike.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 9:09 AM on July 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
So, "eating" whale meat becomes some sort of rite of Japanese-ness
Some years ago, I read a Japanese writer online somewhere commenting on whale, and his take was that most Japanese don't like whale and don't want to eat it, but the older generation is kind of like "we ate whale in our school lunches, and, if it was good enough for us..."
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:25 AM on July 8, 2013
Some years ago, I read a Japanese writer online somewhere commenting on whale, and his take was that most Japanese don't like whale and don't want to eat it, but the older generation is kind of like "we ate whale in our school lunches, and, if it was good enough for us..."
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:25 AM on July 8, 2013
Severe limits on bluefin are coming down the pike one way or another. The only question is whether they'll be imposed by politics or by ecology.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:25 AM on July 8, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:25 AM on July 8, 2013 [4 favorites]
While Japan gets singled out for bluefin, it's notable that in the case of the Mediterranean and Atlantic fishery, Canada was the main stumbling block to reaching some sort of deal.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:34 AM on July 8, 2013
posted by KokuRyu at 9:34 AM on July 8, 2013
Whale was part of the solution. Plentiful and cheap, it provided protein to children in a country that experienced maybe 70% of the caloric intake of Americans until just a generation ago.
Good on Aus and NZ for taking on Japan, but hopefully they will ditch the traditional racist imagery associated with the Japanese hunt.
KokuRyu, are you attempting to claim that in *1993* that Japanese children were only being fed 70 percent of their RDA of calories? Care to provide some cites for these starving children in the 1990s?
posted by tavella at 9:42 AM on July 8, 2013
Good on Aus and NZ for taking on Japan, but hopefully they will ditch the traditional racist imagery associated with the Japanese hunt.
KokuRyu, are you attempting to claim that in *1993* that Japanese children were only being fed 70 percent of their RDA of calories? Care to provide some cites for these starving children in the 1990s?
posted by tavella at 9:42 AM on July 8, 2013
Wait, are people seriously suggesting that Japan is a victim of imperialism?
posted by Dreadnought at 9:43 AM on July 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Dreadnought at 9:43 AM on July 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
Wait, are people seriously suggesting that Japan is a victim of imperialism?
Japan is protecting the whales right to be slaughtered from imperialist bans on it. They have created a Greater East Asia Co-Whale Eating Sphere for themselves and the whales.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:46 AM on July 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
Japan is protecting the whales right to be slaughtered from imperialist bans on it. They have created a Greater East Asia Co-Whale Eating Sphere for themselves and the whales.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:46 AM on July 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
Living in Australia, Japan is a realitively well priced popular interesting holiday destination. But I wont go for two reasons
1 - The history of bullcrap about killing whales then lying about it's 'scientific purposes'. Are the people ignorant to the whale slaughter the government does? I've seen tv reports where most people questioned don't even know the government hunts whale...
2. Tepco lying about the extent of radiation leaks from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster. I just do not believe the food chain is not contaminated.
It's a bummer because it's a place I've always wanted to visit.
posted by Burgatron at 9:46 AM on July 8, 2013
Wait, are people seriously suggesting that Japan is a victim of imperialism?
I said nothing of the sort. But there is a real tendency for Westerners to say that "Western values are best", in this case, that whales somehow deserve special protection because they are sentient, or whatever. Best to stick to the facts. Is the the Antarctic fishery sustainable?
posted by KokuRyu at 9:49 AM on July 8, 2013
I said nothing of the sort. But there is a real tendency for Westerners to say that "Western values are best", in this case, that whales somehow deserve special protection because they are sentient, or whatever. Best to stick to the facts. Is the the Antarctic fishery sustainable?
posted by KokuRyu at 9:49 AM on July 8, 2013
KokuRyu, are you attempting to claim that in *1993* that Japanese children were only being fed 70 percent of their RDA of calories? Care to provide some cites for these starving children in the 1990s?
I don't have time to dig up the deets, but, yeah, when I arrived in Japan it's pretty likely that Japanese caloric intake was less than that of the average American. People had a more "traditional" diet back then, but over the past twenty years rice and fish consumption has declined, while meat, dairy and wheat consumption has increased. Kids are bigger now than they used to be.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:52 AM on July 8, 2013
I don't have time to dig up the deets, but, yeah, when I arrived in Japan it's pretty likely that Japanese caloric intake was less than that of the average American. People had a more "traditional" diet back then, but over the past twenty years rice and fish consumption has declined, while meat, dairy and wheat consumption has increased. Kids are bigger now than they used to be.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:52 AM on July 8, 2013
Ocean acidification and mercury from burning Aussie coal is going to have a bigger impact on whale populations that the Japanese fishing fleet. If Australia wants to save the whales they might want to consider starting at home.
posted by humanfont at 9:58 AM on July 8, 2013
posted by humanfont at 9:58 AM on July 8, 2013
Best to stick to the facts. Is the the Antarctic fishery sustainable?
In short, no. It only exists now due to extreme government subsidy.
Unfortunately, Japan has not demonstrated a good stewardship of marine resources. They are huge proponents of factory fishing, extreme longlining, etc.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 9:58 AM on July 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
In short, no. It only exists now due to extreme government subsidy.
Unfortunately, Japan has not demonstrated a good stewardship of marine resources. They are huge proponents of factory fishing, extreme longlining, etc.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 9:58 AM on July 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
a huge amount of the (only) 800-900 whales caught today goes unsold and uneaten
So what is the incentive to keep "hunting" them? Is it just pig-headed pride? Is this a money sink for the government?
when I arrived in Japan it's pretty likely that Japanese caloric intake was less than that of the average American
Given the incidence of obesity in America, is this really a "problem"?
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 10:07 AM on July 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
So what is the incentive to keep "hunting" them? Is it just pig-headed pride? Is this a money sink for the government?
when I arrived in Japan it's pretty likely that Japanese caloric intake was less than that of the average American
Given the incidence of obesity in America, is this really a "problem"?
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 10:07 AM on July 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
So in fact, Japanese children were not deprived a 'generation ago' and needed whale meat as you were quite ludicrously attempting to claim; they were supplied with the amount of food their parents thought appropriate, and any differences were not due to lack of food resources.
posted by tavella at 10:10 AM on July 8, 2013
posted by tavella at 10:10 AM on July 8, 2013
I said nothing of the sort.
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you did; it's in the post.
Having said that, this is a matter of international importance. If Japan continues to hunt whales, that affects every nation and, thus, every nation has a right to put its own case forward according to its own cultural norms.
Don't get me wrong: I love Japanese art and culture, took a minor in Japanese history when I was an undergrad, rather embarrass my friends with my unsophisticated Japanophelia... but even an uncritical and sentimental foreign booster of Japan such as I can see that Japan is in no position to complain about other countries holding their values 'superior' and will continue to be in no position to do so for at least the next couple of generations.
posted by Dreadnought at 10:10 AM on July 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you did; it's in the post.
Having said that, this is a matter of international importance. If Japan continues to hunt whales, that affects every nation and, thus, every nation has a right to put its own case forward according to its own cultural norms.
Don't get me wrong: I love Japanese art and culture, took a minor in Japanese history when I was an undergrad, rather embarrass my friends with my unsophisticated Japanophelia... but even an uncritical and sentimental foreign booster of Japan such as I can see that Japan is in no position to complain about other countries holding their values 'superior' and will continue to be in no position to do so for at least the next couple of generations.
posted by Dreadnought at 10:10 AM on July 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
Point of clarification: I don't mean to imply that Japanese culture has been proved 'inferior'. Rather, that Japan's unbelievably brutal 20th century empire was fuelled, in large part, by what might (very charitably) cultural chauvinism, in which they (obviously wrongly) held the 'semi-civilised' cultures around them to be manifestly inferior.
posted by Dreadnought at 10:30 AM on July 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Dreadnought at 10:30 AM on July 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
said nothing of the sort. But there is a real tendency for Westerners to say that "Western values are best", in this case, that whales somehow deserve special protection because they are sentient, or whatever.
The fact that some persons in Japan do not share that belief doesn't mean we can't hold that belief. Nor are we showing up in Japan telling them what to do in their homes. This is international waters and we can say as we please and it is not imperialism for us to say and act on our own beliefs. To say otherwise is an attempt to avoid the moral question.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:42 AM on July 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
The fact that some persons in Japan do not share that belief doesn't mean we can't hold that belief. Nor are we showing up in Japan telling them what to do in their homes. This is international waters and we can say as we please and it is not imperialism for us to say and act on our own beliefs. To say otherwise is an attempt to avoid the moral question.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:42 AM on July 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
... in this case, that whales somehow deserve special protection because they are sentient, or whatever ...
I don't think that is an argument that is being set forth with much seriousness by many people. I mean, pigs can be pretty damn smart but that won't keep anyone from eating them (except for Lisa Simpson maybe). Of course, the ONLY reason that really counts is, "because they'll go extinct if we don't stop hunting them."
Now, it turns out that this reason is problematic as well, because blue fin tuna will go extinct, too, if we keep eating it at the current pace. Yet noone will blink any eye if you have tuna, but in the West eating whale somehow ranks somewhere between torturing animals and child abuse, morally speaking. - "You ate WHAT? Please remind me never to leave you alone with my children..."
Anyway, I think whale on the menu will show who you really are, as a human being. You're either (a) with the "Can't have that, gotta protect the poor whales" crowd or you're (b) a "better have it now before it's extinct" type of person.
posted by sour cream at 1:13 PM on July 8, 2013
I don't think that is an argument that is being set forth with much seriousness by many people. I mean, pigs can be pretty damn smart but that won't keep anyone from eating them (except for Lisa Simpson maybe). Of course, the ONLY reason that really counts is, "because they'll go extinct if we don't stop hunting them."
Now, it turns out that this reason is problematic as well, because blue fin tuna will go extinct, too, if we keep eating it at the current pace. Yet noone will blink any eye if you have tuna, but in the West eating whale somehow ranks somewhere between torturing animals and child abuse, morally speaking. - "You ate WHAT? Please remind me never to leave you alone with my children..."
Anyway, I think whale on the menu will show who you really are, as a human being. You're either (a) with the "Can't have that, gotta protect the poor whales" crowd or you're (b) a "better have it now before it's extinct" type of person.
posted by sour cream at 1:13 PM on July 8, 2013
Yes, but tuna are able to be responsibly harvested. They're not, at the moment, but that's another story.
And there are Japanese buyers right down the street from me (on the eastern US seaboard), who will pay thousands to private fishermen for bluefin tuna at the dock.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 1:26 PM on July 8, 2013
And there are Japanese buyers right down the street from me (on the eastern US seaboard), who will pay thousands to private fishermen for bluefin tuna at the dock.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 1:26 PM on July 8, 2013
a huge amount of the (only) 800-900 whales caught today goes unsold and uneaten.
That's because the whales are being hunted for SCIENCE.
KokuRyu, are you attempting to claim that in *1993* that Japanese children were only being fed 70 percent of their RDA of calories? Care to provide some cites for these starving children in the 1990s?
"Weird Al" Yankovic, Fat, 1988.
posted by Metro Gnome at 2:06 PM on July 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
That's because the whales are being hunted for SCIENCE.
KokuRyu, are you attempting to claim that in *1993* that Japanese children were only being fed 70 percent of their RDA of calories? Care to provide some cites for these starving children in the 1990s?
"Weird Al" Yankovic, Fat, 1988.
posted by Metro Gnome at 2:06 PM on July 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
KokuRyu, are you attempting to claim that in *1993* that Japanese children were only being fed 70 percent of their RDA of calories? Care to provide some cites for these starving children in the 1990s?
'Malnourished as an American' is not a phrase that has ever gained currency.
posted by Sebmojo at 2:37 PM on July 8, 2013
'Malnourished as an American' is not a phrase that has ever gained currency.
posted by Sebmojo at 2:37 PM on July 8, 2013
> "I don't think that [whales somehow deserve special protection because they are sentient] is an argument that is being set forth with much seriousness by many people."
... Unfortunately.
posted by kyrademon at 3:42 PM on July 8, 2013
... Unfortunately.
posted by kyrademon at 3:42 PM on July 8, 2013
But there is a real tendency for Westerners to say that "Western values are best", in this case, that whales somehow deserve special protection because they are sentient, or whatever. Best to stick to the facts. Is the the Antarctic fishery sustainable?
In re: Sentience and sustainability.
Um, one being a fact does not preclude the other from being a fact.
In re: Sentience and western values.
Rights are rights. If the 'east' doesn't feel that being able to complain, fight back and be emotionally hurt by being hunted (as well as mourning the dead), justifies not hunting something then seriously - why is there a dialogue at all?
This all seems to boil down to:
Most of the world: 'Stop it, it's wrong'
Japan: 'Nooooo, we neeeeeeeeed it! It's sciieennnce.'
Seriously. Stop killing them. Kill and eat something you can force to grow and honestly, grow the hell up. Your 'cultural difference' does not justify hurting things that can feel.
posted by Fuka at 5:18 PM on July 8, 2013
In re: Sentience and sustainability.
Um, one being a fact does not preclude the other from being a fact.
In re: Sentience and western values.
Rights are rights. If the 'east' doesn't feel that being able to complain, fight back and be emotionally hurt by being hunted (as well as mourning the dead), justifies not hunting something then seriously - why is there a dialogue at all?
This all seems to boil down to:
Most of the world: 'Stop it, it's wrong'
Japan: 'Nooooo, we neeeeeeeeed it! It's sciieennnce.'
Seriously. Stop killing them. Kill and eat something you can force to grow and honestly, grow the hell up. Your 'cultural difference' does not justify hurting things that can feel.
posted by Fuka at 5:18 PM on July 8, 2013
Factory ships were not used by Japan until the 1930s. As whale catches diminished in coastal waters, Japan looked to Antarctica.
And when those run out, just go south of Antarctica. Bound to be more whales in the oceans there!
posted by George_Spiggott at 7:31 PM on July 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
And when those run out, just go south of Antarctica. Bound to be more whales in the oceans there!
posted by George_Spiggott at 7:31 PM on July 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
Tim Flannery, an Australian Ecologist employed be the Federal Government on Climate Change says that Japanese Whaling is sustainable.
posted by sien at 7:54 PM on July 8, 2013
posted by sien at 7:54 PM on July 8, 2013
Does he explain how you sell an exemption for Japan alone to the rest of the world's whaling and would-be whaling nations? Because I'm pretty confident he doesn't mean the whole world can whale at the same rate. That'd be like saying the US's carbon emissions are perfectly sustainable in themselves, the problem is the rest of you upstart countries, so quit it with your copycat carbon emitting, it's not sustainable.
posted by George_Spiggott at 10:03 PM on July 8, 2013
posted by George_Spiggott at 10:03 PM on July 8, 2013
Octopuses, pigs, and dogs are all highly intelligent and yet humans eat them. I don't think a sustainable argument can be made that whales deserve protection because of their intelligence -- it has to come down to sustainability and renewable resources.
posted by jfwlucy at 8:45 AM on July 9, 2013
posted by jfwlucy at 8:45 AM on July 9, 2013
Personally I think that hunting for the common whale species, particularly Minke, is probably a lot less unsustainable than many other current ways of harvesting animals for meat. But given the history that humans have in exploiting wild resources, and the high likelihood that we'll all be eating textured vegetable protein in a few decades, I would be more than hesitant to open up whaling to commercial activities. And Japan pretending that this is scientific is simply laughable.
posted by wilful at 5:47 AM on July 11, 2013
posted by wilful at 5:47 AM on July 11, 2013
Fuka: "Your 'cultural difference' does not justify hurting things that can feel."
Kinda late to the party here, but while there may be many arguments against whaling, if your primary concern is "don't kill them because they can feel", then you'll probably accomplish a lot more by focusing your efforts on convincing your own countrymen to stop eating pigs, chicken, cows, and the like than trying to get another country to stop eating whales.
posted by Bugbread at 8:25 PM on July 18, 2013
Kinda late to the party here, but while there may be many arguments against whaling, if your primary concern is "don't kill them because they can feel", then you'll probably accomplish a lot more by focusing your efforts on convincing your own countrymen to stop eating pigs, chicken, cows, and the like than trying to get another country to stop eating whales.
posted by Bugbread at 8:25 PM on July 18, 2013
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