As long as I can remember, I've wanted to be someone else
June 16, 2015 2:54 PM Subscribe
Stunning photos show why S. Korea is the plastic surgery capital of the world "During the consultation, I realized that all along, I was only thinking of plastic surgery as some kind of magic tool," she says. "From the media, and from my friends, not many people were talking about how plastic surgery was surgery."
The only thing that's really puzzling to me so far is calf reduction (from the tumblr linked in the article). I am in favor of calves.
posted by Nomiconic at 3:24 PM on June 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Nomiconic at 3:24 PM on June 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
I read somewhere that Hollywood actors tend to be weirdly proportioned in person, with abnormally large heads and eyes. Since I gathered from the last discussion on S. Korea that this tends to follow celebrity/movie star trends, I wonder, is it possible to have one's skull enlarged? And if not yet, how soon?
posted by indubitable at 3:39 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by indubitable at 3:39 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
My family is Chinese, not Korean, but my parents have a lot of the traditional East Asian-style rigid gender ideas, and they generally find visible muscles of any kind unappealing on women. Specifically, my mother once told me that she finds it SO UGLY walking behind a white/American woman where the calf is just like a BALL OF MUSCLE and it's BOUNCING UP AND DOWN. So after looking at those pictures, I think that's what's behind the calf-reduction.
Also, relevant: I had dinner with a cousin of mine this weekend and met her fiance for the first time, who is very goodlooking in a standard, approved East Asian way for men. He is ethnically Chinese has been told, as a compliment, that he looks Korean.
posted by joyceanmachine at 3:41 PM on June 16, 2015 [9 favorites]
Also, relevant: I had dinner with a cousin of mine this weekend and met her fiance for the first time, who is very goodlooking in a standard, approved East Asian way for men. He is ethnically Chinese has been told, as a compliment, that he looks Korean.
posted by joyceanmachine at 3:41 PM on June 16, 2015 [9 favorites]
I wouldn't say "stunning" so much as "deeply sad".
posted by ryanshepard at 3:42 PM on June 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by ryanshepard at 3:42 PM on June 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
The only stories I hear about South Korea in the news are how it's a horrible pressure cooker of a society. People spending years cramming for exams, never taking vacations, high suicide rates and of course plastic surgery.
These photos are very good, but they have an ideological point. Bandages, bruises, sad faces, and then garbage, blood, and jars of human fat. I bet a lot of people are really glad they got plastic surgery, and not just like "now I can avoid being judged" -- but that side of things isn't shown. Maybe in the Korean context, it's assumed that the audience already sees those images all the time.
I would be interested to know if a lot of South Koreans consider this degree of plastic surgery at all problematic. Is there like hand-wringing in the larger media about this, or about any of the other "pressure cooker" things?
posted by vogon_poet at 3:44 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
These photos are very good, but they have an ideological point. Bandages, bruises, sad faces, and then garbage, blood, and jars of human fat. I bet a lot of people are really glad they got plastic surgery, and not just like "now I can avoid being judged" -- but that side of things isn't shown. Maybe in the Korean context, it's assumed that the audience already sees those images all the time.
I would be interested to know if a lot of South Koreans consider this degree of plastic surgery at all problematic. Is there like hand-wringing in the larger media about this, or about any of the other "pressure cooker" things?
posted by vogon_poet at 3:44 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
HOW things change. I was in Korea--the war--in 1950, that there were but two styles for women:
1. decent women dressed in traditional Korean garb. 2. "bad" or shameless women who had taken to wearing western garb. Neither group at that time had or considered or could afford plastic surgery.
posted by Postroad at 3:58 PM on June 16, 2015 [9 favorites]
1. decent women dressed in traditional Korean garb. 2. "bad" or shameless women who had taken to wearing western garb. Neither group at that time had or considered or could afford plastic surgery.
posted by Postroad at 3:58 PM on June 16, 2015 [9 favorites]
I wouldn't say "stunning" so much as "deeply sad".
After seeing the piece, I reinterpreted the use of that word to mean shocking rather than gorgeous. It struck me as playing a bit with people's expectations for what that word typically means in an Internet headline.
posted by Michele in California at 4:21 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
After seeing the piece, I reinterpreted the use of that word to mean shocking rather than gorgeous. It struck me as playing a bit with people's expectations for what that word typically means in an Internet headline.
posted by Michele in California at 4:21 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't know. After looking at the photos on this site, linked from the article, I can understand the patients' motives. The site cheats, in that the "before" photos have bad lighting, hair, and makeup; but I have to agree that in some of the "before" photos the people are plain, and in their "after" photos they're much more attractive - even allowing for the better lighting &c.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:54 PM on June 16, 2015
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:54 PM on June 16, 2015
As long as I can remember, I've wanted to be a gangster.
posted by Ideefixe at 4:56 PM on June 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Ideefixe at 4:56 PM on June 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
After looking at the photos on this site
Looking at that site, basically everyone gets turned into an elf as much as their physiology allows. Some of the after photos don't look human - I mean, they look pretty, and I don't think that people need to look human...but they're still eerie. I keep thinking about if you were involved with someone who got a lot of plastic surgery like that, or if you got a lot of surgery, and all of the sudden you're waking up next to or looking in the mirror at a beautiful elf puppet instead of a regular human, and wondering what that's like, how it messes with you when you look like anime or a dolfie.
Obviously, once it becomes common it won't mess with people any more; there's no reason to be attached to looking "human". But being an early adopter has to be weird, even in a country where people get a lot of plastic surgery.
Also, I keep wondering how the hell they shave people's jaws down so much without making the bone fragile.
posted by Frowner at 5:09 PM on June 16, 2015 [8 favorites]
Looking at that site, basically everyone gets turned into an elf as much as their physiology allows. Some of the after photos don't look human - I mean, they look pretty, and I don't think that people need to look human...but they're still eerie. I keep thinking about if you were involved with someone who got a lot of plastic surgery like that, or if you got a lot of surgery, and all of the sudden you're waking up next to or looking in the mirror at a beautiful elf puppet instead of a regular human, and wondering what that's like, how it messes with you when you look like anime or a dolfie.
Obviously, once it becomes common it won't mess with people any more; there's no reason to be attached to looking "human". But being an early adopter has to be weird, even in a country where people get a lot of plastic surgery.
Also, I keep wondering how the hell they shave people's jaws down so much without making the bone fragile.
posted by Frowner at 5:09 PM on June 16, 2015 [8 favorites]
Some are weird, some not. This one isn't, for instance, although I think 90% of that is just lighting. But this one is a genuine change, and I think the patient went from "unremarkable" to "very striking".
I keep wondering how the hell they shave people's jaws down so much without making the bone fragile.
Like this? Yeah, I wondered that too. I'm guessing it's a combination of building other things up, plus a better photo. Or perhaps a better answer is "who says the bone isn't fragile?"
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:32 PM on June 16, 2015
I keep wondering how the hell they shave people's jaws down so much without making the bone fragile.
Like this? Yeah, I wondered that too. I'm guessing it's a combination of building other things up, plus a better photo. Or perhaps a better answer is "who says the bone isn't fragile?"
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:32 PM on June 16, 2015
Frowner: "Looking at that site, basically everyone gets turned into an elf as much as their physiology allows."
A few, yes, but for a lot of them, the Before photos look like non-altered folks I know, and the After photos look like other non-altered folks I know. I know you're heavily into social justice and not intentionally racist or anything, but that statement comes off as pretty unconsciously racist.
Now, an argument that I think can be leveled is that the end results are so very uniform. Even if people are getting surgery to change their faces to non-elfin, human faces, the fact that people are moving towards getting the same face is unsettling.
posted by Bugbread at 5:45 PM on June 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
A few, yes, but for a lot of them, the Before photos look like non-altered folks I know, and the After photos look like other non-altered folks I know. I know you're heavily into social justice and not intentionally racist or anything, but that statement comes off as pretty unconsciously racist.
Now, an argument that I think can be leveled is that the end results are so very uniform. Even if people are getting surgery to change their faces to non-elfin, human faces, the fact that people are moving towards getting the same face is unsettling.
posted by Bugbread at 5:45 PM on June 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
I know you're heavily into social justice and not intentionally racist or anything, but that statement comes off as pretty unconsciously racist.
Point taken. Now that you point it out, my comment starts to sound like creepy cyberpunk-era asia-fetishization, and I should have thought about where my idea of "elfin" was coming from.
Looking again, too, I see that you are right and the vast majority aren't "elfin" at all by any definition.
posted by Frowner at 6:11 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Point taken. Now that you point it out, my comment starts to sound like creepy cyberpunk-era asia-fetishization, and I should have thought about where my idea of "elfin" was coming from.
Looking again, too, I see that you are right and the vast majority aren't "elfin" at all by any definition.
posted by Frowner at 6:11 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
So, in short, I apologize for being creepy and dumb.
posted by Frowner at 6:13 PM on June 16, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 6:13 PM on June 16, 2015 [9 favorites]
(Also - because now I started thinking about it I feel really dumb - it's not my business to comment on [or evaluate]real pictures of real people's faces in any case, especially in ways that are unkind and dehumanizing, and I would never feel good about judging someone in this way in real life. If anyone read my comment and felt bad, I doubly apologize.)
posted by Frowner at 6:27 PM on June 16, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 6:27 PM on June 16, 2015 [9 favorites]
I admit, that as I age, and begin to develop old lady face, with the permanent laugh lines, and the not so firm jawline, that I have thought seriously of going under the knife. Only my fear of surgery, and the insane cost have stopped me.
That said, I consider plastic surgery like I do tattoos. Everyone should feel free to modify their own self however makes them happy. What any of us may think about anyone else's choices speak more to our aesthetic than it does to theirs.
posted by dejah420 at 6:57 PM on June 16, 2015 [12 favorites]
That said, I consider plastic surgery like I do tattoos. Everyone should feel free to modify their own self however makes them happy. What any of us may think about anyone else's choices speak more to our aesthetic than it does to theirs.
posted by dejah420 at 6:57 PM on June 16, 2015 [12 favorites]
but that statement comes off as pretty unconsciously racist.
Why is it racist to observe that the "typical" surgery outcome of "big eyes, 'cute' nose, triangulated chin/jaw" is fairly elf-like? It has this sort of child-like, neoteny look that you see in cartoon characters. This surgical outcome would make a person look more elfin, regardless of their race.
posted by theorique at 7:12 PM on June 16, 2015 [10 favorites]
Why is it racist to observe that the "typical" surgery outcome of "big eyes, 'cute' nose, triangulated chin/jaw" is fairly elf-like? It has this sort of child-like, neoteny look that you see in cartoon characters. This surgical outcome would make a person look more elfin, regardless of their race.
posted by theorique at 7:12 PM on June 16, 2015 [10 favorites]
If I ever undergo plastic surgery, I'm getting the pointy ears... ...and the forehand ridges. More of a star trek alien aesthetic rather than elf, I admit, but I find those body mods unreasonably hot for some reason. Damn you Roddenberry!
posted by smidgen at 7:19 PM on June 16, 2015
posted by smidgen at 7:19 PM on June 16, 2015
theorique: "Why is it racist to observe that the "typical" surgery outcome of "big eyes, 'cute' nose, triangulated chin/jaw" is fairly elf-like?"
Because elves are inhuman and there are lots (and lots and lots) of people who actually look like this without going under the knife? So it's saying "Lots of Asians don't look like humans"? (Not attacking you, here, Frowner, you followed up great)
posted by Bugbread at 7:21 PM on June 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
Because elves are inhuman and there are lots (and lots and lots) of people who actually look like this without going under the knife? So it's saying "Lots of Asians don't look like humans"? (Not attacking you, here, Frowner, you followed up great)
posted by Bugbread at 7:21 PM on June 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
Seriously, I kind of wish the article went deeper into the kind of risk people are taking by doing these things. I'm somewhat conflicted because I feel like people can whatever do they want to their body, and the whole narrative about the pressure to conform tends to be overused a bit when talking about Asian cultures.. and perhaps not used enough when talking about others such as our own.
posted by smidgen at 7:25 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by smidgen at 7:25 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I find it surprising how much bruising there is from facial plastic surgery. It's like some sort of horrific Buzzfeed quiz Plastic surgery patient or domestic violence victim? If all you saw was the recuperation photos no one would ever do it.
Which I guess is why they tend to focus on the before and after shots when they sell it.
posted by GuyZero at 7:29 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Which I guess is why they tend to focus on the before and after shots when they sell it.
posted by GuyZero at 7:29 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Trends in plastic surgery are always interesting. Beauty is subjective but concern for physical appearance is a indelible, undeniably human trait. The relationship between surgery and confidence / aspiration is so amazingly complex but at the same time so brutal.
Anyways, I mostly use "Elvish" to describe a couple white friends of mine. I'm not sure how that relates to anything, I just thought I'd add that in there.
posted by midmarch snowman at 7:34 PM on June 16, 2015
Anyways, I mostly use "Elvish" to describe a couple white friends of mine. I'm not sure how that relates to anything, I just thought I'd add that in there.
posted by midmarch snowman at 7:34 PM on June 16, 2015
If you are considering plastic surgery (or any optional surgery, really) you should watch the operation itself to see what you're in for [warning: nosejob surgery].
posted by benzenedream at 7:38 PM on June 16, 2015
posted by benzenedream at 7:38 PM on June 16, 2015
Eh, whatever. The elvish thing was a misunderstanding, anyway, so I think we can set it aside.
posted by Bugbread at 7:42 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Bugbread at 7:42 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Because elves are inhuman and there are lots (and lots and lots) of people who actually look like this without going under the knife? So it's saying "Lots of Asians don't look like humans"? (Not attacking you, here, Frowner, you followed up great)
There's another good point embedded in your response which is that while coverage of plastic surgery in Asia often asserts that it's in vogue to try to look more "Western" that's not really true once you get past the popularity of eyelid surgery.
I always thought if I were to get any plastic surgery - I'm not particularly planning to, unless somehow end up with a lot of money to burn - I would want my jaw to be a little more defined/square. So I find it kind of odd to see these "after" pictures of men with their faces made more round.
posted by atoxyl at 7:46 PM on June 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
There's another good point embedded in your response which is that while coverage of plastic surgery in Asia often asserts that it's in vogue to try to look more "Western" that's not really true once you get past the popularity of eyelid surgery.
I always thought if I were to get any plastic surgery - I'm not particularly planning to, unless somehow end up with a lot of money to burn - I would want my jaw to be a little more defined/square. So I find it kind of odd to see these "after" pictures of men with their faces made more round.
posted by atoxyl at 7:46 PM on June 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
But this one is a genuine change, and I think the patient went from "unremarkable" to "very striking".
Just goes to show the whole aphorism about beauty and beholder's eye may be a cliché, but is a true one. I think she looks beautiful and interesting before and kind of... odd... in the after. It also doesn't look like a terribly significant change. For that matter, the 4 photos in the top corner of the tumblr (I assume this is the person posting?) is again, quite striking and beautiful in an interesting way before. The after photos are also quite beautiful, but she looks to me like a computer game character, a kind of heightened surreal beauty. Personally I prefer the first, but hey. Each to their own.
Personally, I'm hanging out for Culture technology.
posted by Athanassiel at 7:57 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Just goes to show the whole aphorism about beauty and beholder's eye may be a cliché, but is a true one. I think she looks beautiful and interesting before and kind of... odd... in the after. It also doesn't look like a terribly significant change. For that matter, the 4 photos in the top corner of the tumblr (I assume this is the person posting?) is again, quite striking and beautiful in an interesting way before. The after photos are also quite beautiful, but she looks to me like a computer game character, a kind of heightened surreal beauty. Personally I prefer the first, but hey. Each to their own.
Personally, I'm hanging out for Culture technology.
posted by Athanassiel at 7:57 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
I once saw a portrait of a South Korean family where both parents had obviously had a lot of "Westernizing" plastic surgery but their two children, of course, looked typical for that part of the world. And I felt so sorry for the kids having to grow up feeling that their parents find them ugly. Never good enough indeed.
I'm in an area with poor internet service and not all pictures are loading. Apologies if one of the linked photos I could not see makes this point.
posted by carmicha at 8:00 PM on June 16, 2015
I'm in an area with poor internet service and not all pictures are loading. Apologies if one of the linked photos I could not see makes this point.
posted by carmicha at 8:00 PM on June 16, 2015
It's a totally different situation from South Korea, but there's a really great ethnography of plastic surgery in Brazil that I read this year that's both very accessible and very illuminating, if plastic surgery is a thing that interests y'all.
One of the most interesting things in it is the state-run plastic surgery initiatives. Something many of the participants in the book suggest is that "the poor have the right to be beautiful" too. From the article it seems like that's the opposite of South Korea-- those places look more like luxury spas than medical clinics.
posted by WidgetAlley at 8:13 PM on June 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
One of the most interesting things in it is the state-run plastic surgery initiatives. Something many of the participants in the book suggest is that "the poor have the right to be beautiful" too. From the article it seems like that's the opposite of South Korea-- those places look more like luxury spas than medical clinics.
posted by WidgetAlley at 8:13 PM on June 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
I once saw a portrait of a South Korean family where both parents had obviously had a lot of "Westernizing" plastic surgery but their two children, of course, looked typical for that part of the world. And I felt so sorry for the kids having to grow up feeling that their parents find them ugly.
I know exactly which picture you're referring to, and I'm 99% sure that was revealed to be a photoshop or an ad for something.
posted by desjardins at 8:52 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I know exactly which picture you're referring to, and I'm 99% sure that was revealed to be a photoshop or an ad for something.
posted by desjardins at 8:52 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Here it is on Snopes. It's an ad for a Taiwanese plastic surgery center.
posted by desjardins at 8:54 PM on June 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 8:54 PM on June 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
Some are weird, some not. This one isn't, for instance, although I think 90% of that is just lighting. But this one is a genuine change, and I think the patient went from "unremarkable" to "very striking".
I feel like with both of those people--and I hope they are happy with what they decided to do--a little makeup and lighting would have made the exact same changes.
Cosmetic surgery just seems so extreme to me. There was that.. Olay? ad a couple years ago that showed how you can take someone who you wouldn't notice on the street, add a highly-trained makeup artist, and suddenly she's a supermodel. So much of what we view as beauty is so very contextual. I would be very interested in reading articles about people who get cosmetic surgery to look good for the now, and how they feel 20-30-40 years later when beauty standards have changed.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:27 PM on June 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
I feel like with both of those people--and I hope they are happy with what they decided to do--a little makeup and lighting would have made the exact same changes.
Cosmetic surgery just seems so extreme to me. There was that.. Olay? ad a couple years ago that showed how you can take someone who you wouldn't notice on the street, add a highly-trained makeup artist, and suddenly she's a supermodel. So much of what we view as beauty is so very contextual. I would be very interested in reading articles about people who get cosmetic surgery to look good for the now, and how they feel 20-30-40 years later when beauty standards have changed.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:27 PM on June 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
Kim Ki-duk's film, Time, is about a couple that secretly undergo plastic surgery to fall in love again.
posted by altersego at 9:33 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by altersego at 9:33 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I would be interested to know if a lot of South Koreans consider this degree of plastic surgery at all problematic. Is there like hand-wringing in the larger media about this, or about any of the other "pressure cooker" things?
Yup, absolutely. Every often, news articles or special reports will be released about the health risks of plastic surgery abound, with horror stories about people who were permanently disfigured thanks to a quack doctor and are scared to leave the house. Socially progressive commentators will express their disgust. Etc, etc. If people do get plastic surgery, they'll try to time it for before they enter a new job, or leave a program, so that it will be less obvious to the people surrounding them that they did do surgery. It definitely has stigma or social baggage.
Like, for example, celebrity worship in the USA, it's both vilified and treated with disgust by many, and also practiced by many. Obviously, celebrity worship and plastic surgery are massively different, but I hope it's clear how a country/culture can both express a general disgust about something, yet also actively practice it.
posted by suedehead at 10:23 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yup, absolutely. Every often, news articles or special reports will be released about the health risks of plastic surgery abound, with horror stories about people who were permanently disfigured thanks to a quack doctor and are scared to leave the house. Socially progressive commentators will express their disgust. Etc, etc. If people do get plastic surgery, they'll try to time it for before they enter a new job, or leave a program, so that it will be less obvious to the people surrounding them that they did do surgery. It definitely has stigma or social baggage.
Like, for example, celebrity worship in the USA, it's both vilified and treated with disgust by many, and also practiced by many. Obviously, celebrity worship and plastic surgery are massively different, but I hope it's clear how a country/culture can both express a general disgust about something, yet also actively practice it.
posted by suedehead at 10:23 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Not any different than plastic surgery in the US, really. Its still viewed with a kind of moral disapproval by many, even as it goes on. I live in probably the plastic surgery capital of America (LA), and while there are a handful of people who are open about it most still don't want to advertise the fact.
I know a bunch of people who have gotten plastic surgery though (way more than the 5% claimed for the US in one article above, possibly due to the LA-ness again) and most seem pretty happy with it. I could imagine doing it myself someday if I felt the need/desire, although I'm pretty squicked out by surgery in general so if there was a barrier it would be that.
posted by thefoxgod at 10:32 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I know a bunch of people who have gotten plastic surgery though (way more than the 5% claimed for the US in one article above, possibly due to the LA-ness again) and most seem pretty happy with it. I could imagine doing it myself someday if I felt the need/desire, although I'm pretty squicked out by surgery in general so if there was a barrier it would be that.
posted by thefoxgod at 10:32 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I want to touch on that a bit more. Koreans do have a tendency to really, in some ways, believe in the fake-it-till-you-make-it notion. The reason why working those longer hours doesn't really increase productivity is because staying in the office that much longer makes you look like a more devoted employee, a better, more loyal one. Thus, you're more likely to get that promotion over the loser who only spent 12 hours in the office as opposed to your 13.
I've read some pretty awful-sounding descriptions of this trend in office work in Japan. Americans do it too, though - in some industries/professions more than in others.
posted by atoxyl at 11:58 PM on June 16, 2015
I've read some pretty awful-sounding descriptions of this trend in office work in Japan. Americans do it too, though - in some industries/professions more than in others.
posted by atoxyl at 11:58 PM on June 16, 2015
atoxyl: "I've read some pretty awful-sounding descriptions of this trend in office work in Japan."
The impression I've gotten from reading comments like qcubed's, though, is that in Korea it's far more cut-throat/competitive. You work crazy hours in Japan, but it's not to get some advantage over someone else, or to beat someone else out of a promotion, or the like, but because you're expected to do it. Like, there's no competition to be the last one to leave the office, it's just that nobody wants to be the first.
posted by Bugbread at 12:19 AM on June 17, 2015
The impression I've gotten from reading comments like qcubed's, though, is that in Korea it's far more cut-throat/competitive. You work crazy hours in Japan, but it's not to get some advantage over someone else, or to beat someone else out of a promotion, or the like, but because you're expected to do it. Like, there's no competition to be the last one to leave the office, it's just that nobody wants to be the first.
posted by Bugbread at 12:19 AM on June 17, 2015
Thanks for tracking down that photo's provenance, DesJardins. Although the photo turns out to be crafted for an ad, I think the point about the impact on the offspring may still stand. Hello body dysmorphia and self-loathing!
posted by carmicha at 5:55 AM on June 17, 2015
posted by carmicha at 5:55 AM on June 17, 2015
the collapse of traditional masculine ideals following the Asian Financial Crisis of 1997 (though they refer to it as the IMF Crisis)
Hey qcubed, can you expound on this? I'm curious.
I don't think I'd heard this viewpoint before -- although granted, I was too young to understand what the IMF crisis meant at the time (except for seeing everyone donate their gold on television..)
posted by suedehead at 8:06 AM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
Hey qcubed, can you expound on this? I'm curious.
I don't think I'd heard this viewpoint before -- although granted, I was too young to understand what the IMF crisis meant at the time (except for seeing everyone donate their gold on television..)
posted by suedehead at 8:06 AM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
Other aspects (e.g. creepyness, economics, etc.) aside, ROK is definitely Cyberpunk.
posted by Smedleyman at 8:45 AM on June 17, 2015
posted by Smedleyman at 8:45 AM on June 17, 2015
Self-image is such a complex area. A friend of mine was born with a deformed spine that was corrected late in her teenage years when appropriate - and dramatic - surgical techniques had been developed. I think she was one of the first to have the operation, which left her with a truly magnificent scar from neck to coccyx and a perfectly normal posture.
She more than once said that "she missed her hump", which she regarded as part of herself, and saw its loss as necessary but regrettable.
She was also deeply dissatisfied with her nose, which she saw as far too big, and had serious plans to "get it fixed". It was a perfectly good nose, in my opinion, and in no way detracted from her (I'd classify as moderately elfin) face; indeed, I hadn't even clocked it as a notable feature until she told me about its unsatisfactory nature. We haven't been in touch for years, so I don't know if she did get it done, but she's a determined person and I imagine she either has or will.
This and discussions with others have left me with the conviction that people's attitudes towards cosmetic surgery on themselves are not areas in which I am qualified to comment unless directly asked, and to default otherwise to personable interest and such support as may be appropriate.
That goes double for different cultures.
posted by Devonian at 9:09 AM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
She more than once said that "she missed her hump", which she regarded as part of herself, and saw its loss as necessary but regrettable.
She was also deeply dissatisfied with her nose, which she saw as far too big, and had serious plans to "get it fixed". It was a perfectly good nose, in my opinion, and in no way detracted from her (I'd classify as moderately elfin) face; indeed, I hadn't even clocked it as a notable feature until she told me about its unsatisfactory nature. We haven't been in touch for years, so I don't know if she did get it done, but she's a determined person and I imagine she either has or will.
This and discussions with others have left me with the conviction that people's attitudes towards cosmetic surgery on themselves are not areas in which I am qualified to comment unless directly asked, and to default otherwise to personable interest and such support as may be appropriate.
That goes double for different cultures.
posted by Devonian at 9:09 AM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Related:
The 10-Step Korean Skincare Routine
Here's What Happened When I Tried A 12-Step Korean Skincare Regimen
Korean cosmetics and skincare are a hot topic in the beauty press and becoming increasingly accessible in the US (Target carries a few items from the LaNeige line, Sephora carries a few lines, Urban Outfitters carries a few things from a couple different Korean companies, and just about anything can be ordered fairly inexpensively from Amazon or Ebay--never mind what you might be able to unearth if you have a decent Asian supermarket in your town).
Even I don't take time to use more than a few products to wash and moisturize my face, and I'm a weirdo obsessive, but if I invested tens of thousands of dollars to create said face, I'd probably find the time to layer serums and essences and do paper masks every morning and night.
posted by padraigin at 9:25 AM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
The 10-Step Korean Skincare Routine
Here's What Happened When I Tried A 12-Step Korean Skincare Regimen
Korean cosmetics and skincare are a hot topic in the beauty press and becoming increasingly accessible in the US (Target carries a few items from the LaNeige line, Sephora carries a few lines, Urban Outfitters carries a few things from a couple different Korean companies, and just about anything can be ordered fairly inexpensively from Amazon or Ebay--never mind what you might be able to unearth if you have a decent Asian supermarket in your town).
Even I don't take time to use more than a few products to wash and moisturize my face, and I'm a weirdo obsessive, but if I invested tens of thousands of dollars to create said face, I'd probably find the time to layer serums and essences and do paper masks every morning and night.
posted by padraigin at 9:25 AM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
I feel like with both of those people--and I hope they are happy with what they decided to do--a little makeup and lighting would have made the exact same changes.
Some years ago, a friend of a friend spent thousands of dollars to fly from the U.S. to some cheaper place and get liposuction. Two pounds of fat were removed, leaving behind a series of permanent scars where they cut her open to insert whatever they inserted to suction out the fat. Six months later, she had some kind of infection (unrelated to the surgery) and was put on steroids as part of the treatment. She gained 10 pounds and then refused to finish the steroids lest she gain yet more.
For the kind of money she spent (or even a whole lot less), she could have gone to the most expensive hair place in town to get her hair cut and dyed and she could have bought an entirely new wardrobe. The results would have lasted six-ish months or longer and not left her with permanent scars.
This woman had other cosmetic surgeries. Friends of hers often gossiped behind her back about it. I heard more than one of them say things like "So, basically, she is so covered in scars, she only looks good in her clothes. You can get that effect by wearing a girdle or fake boobs or whatever."
I also am a big believer that folks should be able to do what they want. But I also also wish we had more real support for other answers and other attitudes. I think about that a lot and I don't know how anyone would get traction promoting quality of life approaches as an alternative. I really don't.
posted by Michele in California at 9:41 AM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Some years ago, a friend of a friend spent thousands of dollars to fly from the U.S. to some cheaper place and get liposuction. Two pounds of fat were removed, leaving behind a series of permanent scars where they cut her open to insert whatever they inserted to suction out the fat. Six months later, she had some kind of infection (unrelated to the surgery) and was put on steroids as part of the treatment. She gained 10 pounds and then refused to finish the steroids lest she gain yet more.
For the kind of money she spent (or even a whole lot less), she could have gone to the most expensive hair place in town to get her hair cut and dyed and she could have bought an entirely new wardrobe. The results would have lasted six-ish months or longer and not left her with permanent scars.
This woman had other cosmetic surgeries. Friends of hers often gossiped behind her back about it. I heard more than one of them say things like "So, basically, she is so covered in scars, she only looks good in her clothes. You can get that effect by wearing a girdle or fake boobs or whatever."
I also am a big believer that folks should be able to do what they want. But I also also wish we had more real support for other answers and other attitudes. I think about that a lot and I don't know how anyone would get traction promoting quality of life approaches as an alternative. I really don't.
posted by Michele in California at 9:41 AM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
It might be somewhat accurate to say these people want some of their facial features to be "more Western" but it's completely inaccurate to say they want to look white. They basically want to look like an East Asian person who fits an idealized standard of East Asian beauty that does exist in the wild but is somewhat rarer than the typical Asian face. It would be grotesque, for example, to give an East Asian person a Western nose with literally the same dimensions as found on a white person. It's more like an East Asian nose that one of the celebrities has that's more prominent and shaped a certain way but is still Asian.
posted by ChuckRamone at 9:47 AM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by ChuckRamone at 9:47 AM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hmm, that's interesting. I don't know if I agree that the IMF crisis itself can be pegged as a reason - I'd say (from my warm comfy pop-sociology armchair) that the narrative has deeper history.
For one, I'd argue that the history of Gwageo exams as an intellectual criterion for power/wealth/aristocratic progress, and even the figure/trope of the 암행어사/secret royal inspector as a powerful academic intellectual type have more paved the way for a cultural linkage of "intellect = power". Exams and intellect, not macho brawn, were historically the way to progress within Korean society (albeit within an aristocratic society bounded underneath the rule of a royal family).
Even Hong Gildong, the Robin Hood-esque bandit leader of the people (who is such a widespread fictional character that it's what banks will use as the equivalent of "John Doe" on example checks) was always portrayed as a well-dressed, well-mannered gentleman figure, not a rough-and-burly bandit. Here's a Google Image Search.
posted by suedehead at 12:12 PM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
For one, I'd argue that the history of Gwageo exams as an intellectual criterion for power/wealth/aristocratic progress, and even the figure/trope of the 암행어사/secret royal inspector as a powerful academic intellectual type have more paved the way for a cultural linkage of "intellect = power". Exams and intellect, not macho brawn, were historically the way to progress within Korean society (albeit within an aristocratic society bounded underneath the rule of a royal family).
Even Hong Gildong, the Robin Hood-esque bandit leader of the people (who is such a widespread fictional character that it's what banks will use as the equivalent of "John Doe" on example checks) was always portrayed as a well-dressed, well-mannered gentleman figure, not a rough-and-burly bandit. Here's a Google Image Search.
posted by suedehead at 12:12 PM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I looked through the tumblr Joe In Australia posted.
Yes, some people ended up looking more conventionally attractive, if rather generic-looking. As someone who has seen a lot of women around her get plastic surgery in the States, and be quite happy with the results, I'm not going to judge them for it. Whenever I find myself questioning the point of plastic surgery, I end up asking myself why SHOULDN'T people look how they want and why looks should solely be the result of blind chance, aka the genetic lottery.
What did sadden me about that tumblr were the girls who were actually quite gorgeous and whose resulting surgeries completely erased their distinctive features.
I really wish they could ban surgeries before a certain age, unless the person has some sort of extreme deformity. So many of us feel terribly ugly when we're young...if I had access to that sort of surgery in my teens I would have probably subjected myself to at least a dozen of trivial and unnecessary operations in a frenzy to feel perfect and lovable, obliterating every single thing that made me stand out from a crowd.
posted by neeta at 3:08 PM on June 17, 2015
Yes, some people ended up looking more conventionally attractive, if rather generic-looking. As someone who has seen a lot of women around her get plastic surgery in the States, and be quite happy with the results, I'm not going to judge them for it. Whenever I find myself questioning the point of plastic surgery, I end up asking myself why SHOULDN'T people look how they want and why looks should solely be the result of blind chance, aka the genetic lottery.
What did sadden me about that tumblr were the girls who were actually quite gorgeous and whose resulting surgeries completely erased their distinctive features.
I really wish they could ban surgeries before a certain age, unless the person has some sort of extreme deformity. So many of us feel terribly ugly when we're young...if I had access to that sort of surgery in my teens I would have probably subjected myself to at least a dozen of trivial and unnecessary operations in a frenzy to feel perfect and lovable, obliterating every single thing that made me stand out from a crowd.
posted by neeta at 3:08 PM on June 17, 2015
Some of the surgeries would surely make the recipient stand out from the crowd, so it's a bit of a cleft stick: women have so far been criticised both for making themselves less distinctive and for being too weird; for obsessing over their appearance and for being unable to conceal surgical scars. I submit that it doesn't matter how one might feel about the result of any surgery, or cosmetic surgery in general; the feeling that we can critique women's bodies and judge them accordingly is both the cause of the problem and the problem itself.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:20 PM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:20 PM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
the feeling that we can critique women's bodies and judge them accordingly is both the cause of the problem and the problem itself.
Actually, I would submit the cause of the problem is that most humans are superficial, and regardless of whether or not people are critiquing each other, the way you look at first glance holds a huge amount of power.
I mean, people could critique or not critique all day long, but it won't change the fact so-and-so will get hired for his or her looks by a silent boss who feels eye candy is just important as a person's skills on paper.
posted by neeta at 4:58 PM on June 17, 2015
Actually, I would submit the cause of the problem is that most humans are superficial, and regardless of whether or not people are critiquing each other, the way you look at first glance holds a huge amount of power.
I mean, people could critique or not critique all day long, but it won't change the fact so-and-so will get hired for his or her looks by a silent boss who feels eye candy is just important as a person's skills on paper.
posted by neeta at 4:58 PM on June 17, 2015
I wish I could remember where I read it (perhaps while googling something after reading this article), but I found it interesting that more men in Korea get plastic surgery than women.
posted by Bugbread at 5:15 PM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Bugbread at 5:15 PM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
for obsessing over their appearance and for being unable to conceal surgical scars. I submit that it doesn't matter how one might feel about the result of any surgery, or cosmetic surgery in general; the feeling that we can critique women's bodies and judge them accordingly is both the cause of the problem and the problem itself.
To be clear, I am neither criticizing anyone for obsessing over their looks nor for being unable to conceal surgical scars. I was repeating catty gossip from her so-called friends. Part of my point was that if she was hoping to impress her social circle, she wasn't succeeding. In fairness to her gossipy friends, I did and do agree with them that lipo makes little sense to me and that there are a great many other things you can do to enhance your looks for that kind of money that will last at least six months and likely cause you less pain and suffering.
I have had surgeries for minor medical issues that happened to improve my appearasnce. For one, I had a large mole removed from my neck when it began getting bigger and darker. It was biopsied and found to be not cancerous. I was extremely fortunate that the PA who removed it had worked in a cosmetic surgeon's office previously. The scar is nearly invisible. Similarly, I had a sebaceous cyst removed from my face a few years after that and the scar is also nearly invisible. I outright said to the surgeon "I guess I can always have cosmetic surgery to deal with the scar." He was offended and asserted I wouldn't need it.
My looks were super important to me when I was younger. They still matter to me, though I think I have a healthier relationship to it than I once did. I get asked a lot if my sons are my brothers, so people routinely underestimate my age by about two decades or so. That is not mere happenstance, though it is also not due to cosmetic surgery nor even cosmetics. I chose to not go into that in my earlier remark because I get a lot of flack for supposedly making everything about me.
I wish I knew how to both talk to people about serving their vanity in a way that also improved their health and quality of life and how to make money off sharing such information. It would be nice to benefit other people while also benefitting myself. But I honestly don't know how to do that.
posted by Michele in California at 6:18 PM on June 17, 2015
To be clear, I am neither criticizing anyone for obsessing over their looks nor for being unable to conceal surgical scars. I was repeating catty gossip from her so-called friends. Part of my point was that if she was hoping to impress her social circle, she wasn't succeeding. In fairness to her gossipy friends, I did and do agree with them that lipo makes little sense to me and that there are a great many other things you can do to enhance your looks for that kind of money that will last at least six months and likely cause you less pain and suffering.
I have had surgeries for minor medical issues that happened to improve my appearasnce. For one, I had a large mole removed from my neck when it began getting bigger and darker. It was biopsied and found to be not cancerous. I was extremely fortunate that the PA who removed it had worked in a cosmetic surgeon's office previously. The scar is nearly invisible. Similarly, I had a sebaceous cyst removed from my face a few years after that and the scar is also nearly invisible. I outright said to the surgeon "I guess I can always have cosmetic surgery to deal with the scar." He was offended and asserted I wouldn't need it.
My looks were super important to me when I was younger. They still matter to me, though I think I have a healthier relationship to it than I once did. I get asked a lot if my sons are my brothers, so people routinely underestimate my age by about two decades or so. That is not mere happenstance, though it is also not due to cosmetic surgery nor even cosmetics. I chose to not go into that in my earlier remark because I get a lot of flack for supposedly making everything about me.
I wish I knew how to both talk to people about serving their vanity in a way that also improved their health and quality of life and how to make money off sharing such information. It would be nice to benefit other people while also benefitting myself. But I honestly don't know how to do that.
posted by Michele in California at 6:18 PM on June 17, 2015
I've had facial surgery. It was one of the most difficult, painful things I've ever done, but it also had an absolutely enormous impact on my quality of life. I feel like those photo blogs are kind of creepy and exploitative, and it's why I struck out the super gross part of my contract with my surgeon that would have given them the right to use images of me without my consent. (Like, they could have found and pulled my Facebook pictures and used them in perpetuity. What the hell?) It's a really weird phenomenon to be scrolling through pages and pages of before-and-after photos doing really quick, judgmental "yep"s and "nope"s when there are actual people living in those bodies whose opinions - the only ones that actually matter - are completely absent from the conversation by design.
posted by Corinth at 10:37 PM on June 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Corinth at 10:37 PM on June 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
Don't have time to read everything here, but I have to jump in to point out (hope somebody's already done so, in fact) that "Westernizing" plastic surgery is bullshit--Korean people do not go under the knife to look more Western.
Even when they get the eyelid crease surgery. Yes, even then. Many, many Koreans are born with creased ("double"/sangapeul) eyelids. Koreans who undergo eyelid surgery are doing it to look like them, not to look like honkeys.
The end.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 12:11 AM on June 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Even when they get the eyelid crease surgery. Yes, even then. Many, many Koreans are born with creased ("double"/sangapeul) eyelids. Koreans who undergo eyelid surgery are doing it to look like them, not to look like honkeys.
The end.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 12:11 AM on June 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
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posted by mosk at 3:00 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]