During the 10 hours I was reporting on this story, I was groped 22 times

April 19, 2018 3:18 PM

"This year’s Coachella experience was also full of moments I never saw on Instagram: being repeatedly violated by strangers. In the three days I was at Coachella, I only spent a total of 10 hours at the actual festival, where I watched numerous performances and interviewed festivalgoers about their experience with sexual assault and harassment for Teen Vogue. [...] Of the 54 young women who spoke to Teen Vogue for this piece during the weekend-long event, all of them had a story of sexual assault or harassment that occurred this year at Coachella."
posted by humuhumu (136 comments total)

Vox: Matt Lauer, Mario Batali, and Garrison Keillor are all eyeing a return. #MeToo is at risk.
Employers need to be held accountable, not just a few bad actors.

Posting this not to derail, but to ask - what can Coachella do to stop this?
posted by saysthis at 3:28 PM on April 19, 2018 [6 favorites]

Posting this not to derail, but to ask - what can Coachella do to stop this?

Post a strict no harassment policy.
Have staff available to help and support victims.
Believe women who come forward.
Uphold that policy, with ejections and referrals to law enforcement.

These assholes do this because they feel that they can. You need to make them realize that this conduct will have consequences for them.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:42 PM on April 19, 2018 [106 favorites]

But wasn't having Beyonce as headliner supposed to make everything at Coachella wonderful?
(hamburger)

Remembering that one of the first big triggers was Trump's "Access Hollywood tapes", it can be concluded that it should not be safe to relax until he is among the punished... so no breath-holding recommended.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:51 PM on April 19, 2018 [5 favorites]

I'm a guy. I went to Lollapalooza once. Would never go to one of these things again. The way people crowd in? There's simply no way you could ever eliminate people from getting groped, felt up or worse. I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying nothing should be prevented. It's just a raging sea of hormones and assholes all grinding on and past and through one another. The crowd was so packed in tight I could smell people's festival breath.

I almost got a lit cigarette in my face from a passing girl 15 years younger than me. I pushed/partly grabbed her arm (she was leading with the cigarette in her hand to weave through the crowd). I say, hey watch it with the cigarette. She looks back at me and flicks it at me, it bounces off my shirt and burns some other girl's arm. And 1.5 seconds later, I had no idea where cigarette girl was. It's impossible to find people in a crowd like that.

I'm not comparing this to sexual assault. It's just that these fests get stupidly close, crowded and the crowd gets fucked up or stupid, and like I said, there's a big bunch of trust fund assholes in attendance.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 3:53 PM on April 19, 2018 [17 favorites]

I also fucking hate these miserable festivals but it doesn't mean women should expect to get groped there or anywhere.
posted by selfnoise at 3:59 PM on April 19, 2018 [65 favorites]

I found myself fantasizing about button activated spike- launching belts as i read this.

It is definitely hard to get away from or catch assholes in crowds.
posted by emjaybee at 3:59 PM on April 19, 2018 [3 favorites]

There's simply no way you could ever eliminate people from getting groped, felt up or worse.

Completely eliminating all groping seems like an unreasonably high bar when this reporter says she was groped 22 times in 10 hours. We're not talking about isolated incidents here. I have never been groped at Coachella or any other concert, and neither has my 6' tall male partner that accompanies me. Gosh, can't imagine why that is.

When I attended Coachella security personnel were very easy to spot. They seemed to be primarily concerned about dehydration and illegal drug use. The personnel need to be trained in assault/harassment awareness and women need to be empowered to report creeps through information campaigns. Coachella is a private event so it seems reasonable that any person who gropes a woman or grinds against them without consent should be kicked out.
posted by muddgirl at 4:00 PM on April 19, 2018 [61 favorites]

I also fucking hate these miserable festivals but it doesn't mean women should expect to get groped there or anywhere.

I agree 100% - but there will never be enough security, staff interventions, etc to be everywhere at these things. Security is dealing with illness, overdoses, fights, injuries, lost kids, etc. Even the most supportive staff members believing women 100% will never be able to find that particular frat boy with the neon Wayfarers, ink and flip flops who groped her.

I live right near the park where Lollapalooza happens every year. I am always surprised something much worse or horrendous doesn't happen. Every year. The only thing that might make this better is more bad publicity like this as in "Lollapalooza is an overpriced, overcrowded and shitty experience where it its very likely you will be sexually assaulted"

Edit- perhaps we are talking past each other. I have not been to Coachella and was just assuming it was very much like Lollapalooza. My apologies if I am wrong about that.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 4:10 PM on April 19, 2018

What is your point, jeff? I'm pretty sure all of us have the cognitive ability to grasp that not all assaulters will be caught and punished and that the crowded nature of festivals makes apprehension more difficult.
posted by AFABulous at 4:14 PM on April 19, 2018 [56 favorites]

This sentence manages to encapsulate 2018 nicely (well, awfully, but you know): When I was waiting in line for a sweet potato taco on Sunday, a man poked me in the stomach and asked me if I do Pilates.
posted by stevil at 4:16 PM on April 19, 2018 [4 favorites]

But wasn't having Beyonce as headliner supposed to make everything at Coachella wonderful?
(hamburger)

Actually, no, I don't think anyone thought that. Just curious: who do you imagine you're making fun of with this comment?
posted by neroli at 4:18 PM on April 19, 2018 [34 favorites]

I guess my point is that not much can be done about this at festivals like these. Triple security? Quadruple security? Maybe that would help?
posted by jeff-o-matic at 4:19 PM on April 19, 2018

it's incredibly gross to think about but actually 22x in 10h seems like a low number to me.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:19 PM on April 19, 2018 [5 favorites]

I guess my point is that not much can be done about this at festivals like these. Triple security? Quadruple security? Maybe that would help?

Did you read the actual article? The author mentions ways that several other festivals are trying to deal with this issue which Coachella has not implemented. None of them are "triple security". If you don't want to engage with the actual article nor any of the people here, then I think you should step out of this discussion.
posted by muddgirl at 4:25 PM on April 19, 2018 [71 favorites]

I saw Suicidal Tendencies in an outdoor festival-esque atmosphere back in 199mumble. Some guy groped one of their fans. (Total suicyco girl. Wifebeater, bandana.) She went off and came back in a few minutes with a posse of similarly-attired girls. Next time the guy came around in the pit, one of them clotheslined him, and then they all picked him up and dragged him off.

Now, I'm not saying this is an approach that will work at Coachella. I am also not saying that it's the responsibility of the women to band together to stop this and if they don't it's their fault, or anything like that. What I am saying is, that guy, and anybody else who was watching, learned that, on that day at least, they were not going to get away with anything.

Now, if a group of girls did band together and drag a sexual predator to the parking lot, I would be inexplicably unable to accurately describe any of the women, should anybody ask later.
posted by curiousgene at 4:27 PM on April 19, 2018 [66 favorites]

Yeah, it seems pretty unrealistic to ask the festival to police stuff like this. In this instance I think we're going to get better results just continuing to raise awareness in both males and females that unwanted groping is what douchebags do, and women aren't going to put up with it any more.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 4:40 PM on April 19, 2018 [1 favorite]

It seems really easy for the festival to police this, considering they pulled in 115 million dollars. Plainclothes security, and if you see someone get groped, ask the woman to make 100% sure it wasn't a friend playing a joke or something, then kick the offender out, and ask the woman if she wants to press charges for sexual assault. Once word starts getting around I think things would improve.
posted by Slinga at 4:47 PM on April 19, 2018 [37 favorites]

Maybe, if you can't have that many people in that close of proximity without this kind of thing "inevitably" happening, it is unreasonably dangerous to allow gatherings like this and people shouldn't be allowed to have that way generally. I don't want to jump straight to comparing it to getting killed, because it isn't, but let's say that people got seriously injured in these sorts of numbers at every event where people were behaving this way, not just here and there but the same person getting, I don't know, stabbed this many times in that span of time.

Maybe if human beings can't gather like this safely, then if they want to have a concert, they need to sell tickets and have people sit in actual seats in an actual venue, and if they want to do something else, it's on the ones who're making all the money to figure out how to do so in a way where nobody gets hurt and security can actually respond to incidents as they occur.
posted by Sequence at 4:47 PM on April 19, 2018 [25 favorites]

Some things might have a meaningful impact. Having security prioritize finding assaulters and making a very public and publicized—as in news articles, official social media broadcasts, etc.—spectacle of ejecting them from the show and handing them over to law enforcement might help. Yeah you can't catch all or even most offenders in a situation like this, so go hard after as many as you can and use your official megaphone to make big examples of them. Put them up on the fucking jumbotrons as the cops are hauling them off in handcuffs. Let the guys who think they can do this shit hear the ear-splitting screams of approval coming from the crowd as someone who could easily have been them is publicly humiliated and has their weekend (at least) utterly ruined.

Create a legal fund to help women who are assaulted prosecute their assaulters, should they wish to do so. Take a couple of those millions of festival income and bank it, to make sure that at least a few of the most egregious scumbags (if every woman out of a sample of 54 interviewees is being groped multiple times a day, how many rapes must surely be happening?) go to prison for their crimes. Next year, post the names and faces of the convicted at the entrances to the event.

And yes, follow the example of that Swedish festival in the article and threaten to just not have the festival next year if more than x (where x is a small and yet also horrifyingly large number, like 20) assaults are reported. I think 20 is actually a good number; there are unlikely to be that many false reports (and if for some insane reason there actually is an organized brigade of false reporters, it will be obvious at that scale) but also there are going to be a lot of people who don't want to risk being That Girl Who Killed Coachella, so you can't have the number be too high. Then, actually follow through.

I think policies like that would have an impact. There are things that Coachella could do.

I wouldn't be opposed to a bit of vigilante justice in a situation like this, either. Consistent official enforcement is probably impossible, so if women need to defend themselves personally—in groups if necessary—then so be it. I would rather they dragged offenders to security rather than say just stomping them into the mud right there on the festival ground,
but fuck, something needs to be done.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:51 PM on April 19, 2018 [26 favorites]

Maybe if human beings can't gather like this safely

it's not human beings in general. it's just men.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:55 PM on April 19, 2018 [175 favorites]

Yes. We need ZERO TOLERANCE. Someone complains to a security guard about being groped, they should be required to call a supervisor and frogmarch out the attacker to security, then take down his ID, and I guess first time, mark an X on his stub, and toss him back.

2nd time, hand him over to the cops.
posted by mikelieman at 4:56 PM on April 19, 2018

I guess my point is that not much can be done about [sexual assualt]...

Just pointing out that this is literally what you said.
posted by weed donkey at 4:56 PM on April 19, 2018 [16 favorites]

if you can't have that many people in that close of proximity without this kind of thing "inevitably" happening, it is unreasonably dangerous to allow gatherings like this

^^^ This

Can you imagine someone saying, "of course hundreds of people are going to get a few bucks grabbed out of their wallet; the crowds are huge; they can't possibly hire enough security to catch all the pickpockets at a large festival? Sure, this lady lost a few dozen dollars in the time she was there, and lots of other women say they got robbed too, but it's not like they actually got hurt."

If the crowds are so big and tightly-packed that your security staff cannot prevent crimes, to such an extent that a large portion of the crowd attends the event in order to commit those crimes, the problem is not "women just don't know how to have fun" or whatever the apologists are saying this week.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:57 PM on April 19, 2018 [35 favorites]

It seems really easy for the festival to police this, considering they pulled in 115 million dollars.

Considering who runs Coachella, I have a hard time believing they'd actually care, regardless of cost.
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 5:00 PM on April 19, 2018 [9 favorites]

like why is "ban all large public gatherings" seen as a more workable solution than "teach men not to be rapists".
posted by poffin boffin at 5:01 PM on April 19, 2018 [103 favorites]

I mean, 100% enforcement of any law is pretty much impossible in pretty much any context. Like, I know that I'm probably going to get away with speeding almost all the time, but the fact that I might get pulled over and I might get a fine (accompanied with regularly seeing other people pulled over on the side of the road, having their day ruined) does have an effect on my driving behavior. I know it's not fashionable to say so in liberal circles and that this is an argument that has genuinely been horrifically abused by countless "tough on crime" politicians, but deterrence is a real thing. Yeah there are ways in which it is used (or purported to be used, anyway) that are profoundly Not OK, but the knowledge that one might get punished for a crime does weigh in the mind when one is contemplating illegal behavior, at least for most people. Just because you can't catch and punish every offender doesn't mean that there's no benefit to going after as many as possible, and making sure people know about it when you get them.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:05 PM on April 19, 2018 [7 favorites]

Every performer takes two minutes before performing to say, "If someone puts his hands on you while you're here at the festival, text "[slogan]" to [number] so that we can get a count of how often this is going on. If you get a look at the person, please also report to the organizer tent where they will have people on hand to take descriptions. If you can get a picture of the person without endangering yourself, do that, too. We will triangulate descriptions and photos, determine who is doing this, and arrest them."

Also, mikelieman, HAAAAAAAAAAR!
We need ZERO TOLERANCE. Someone complains to a security guard about being groped, they should be required to call a supervisor and frogmarch out the attacker to security, then take down his ID, and I guess first time, mark an X on his stub, and toss him back.

So zero tolerance, just a brush-up on the concept, is when if you assault someone you get handcuffed, loaded into a vehicle, and driven to jail. You don't just have to watch while someone draws a gnarly black X on your souvenir. Ask any nonwhite guy if you want anecdotes.
posted by Don Pepino at 5:07 PM on April 19, 2018 [51 favorites]

it's not human beings in general. it's just men.

I meant in more general terms about the claim that security can't see who's doing what or actually control or observe behavior in general when people are packed in like that, not that women in the crowd are actually behaving dangerously or doing anything wrong.

Men should definitely also be taught not to be rapists, but if billionaires are making millions of dollars off of this event, I consider it to be their job to figure out the question of how to organize people in such a way that they can generally provide a safe environment, and not something where fixing the problem has to wait for the culture shift that I totally agree is necessary. It's like the water ride amusement park that killed the kid: They know it's dangerous and they're letting it happen anyway because it makes them money and that's the part that's not okay. This isn't a situation that just happened to occur--they made it happen. If they wanted to fix the massive public safety issue by only selling tickets to women until men get their act together categorically, I'd also be fine with that.
posted by Sequence at 5:09 PM on April 19, 2018 [3 favorites]

Yeah Don Pepino, sexual assault is sexual assault. It doesn't go from being a crime to just being "against policy" simply because you're at a festival. It's a fucking crime, people who are caught doing it should be arrested and prosecuted.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:09 PM on April 19, 2018 [5 favorites]

Back in my concert attending days, ages 15-22 or so, my body was casually violated a groper at most shows. And the very few that I could ever catch totally denied that it was them (and how dare I accuse them! And also I was too ugly to be groped! etc) or acted like their hand up my shirt was an accident. Men, here is something you can actually do to help prevent this: talk to your friends about it. Before the show, talk to your male friends about how you will not stand for it! And if you are thinking to yourself that you don't have to do it because you don't know anyone who would grope: DO IT ANYWAY. Even if you're right, letting your friends know that you will call it out means they are more likely to call it out if they see it.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 5:10 PM on April 19, 2018 [28 favorites]

DC has a St. Paddy's themed concert in the RFK parking lot called the Shamrock Fest. We call it Sham Rock Fest for reasons, mostly because my neighbor went one year and was assaulted.

Crazy but true story, she comes home late disheveled and upset tells me what happened. She basically got gang groped in a crowd, they tried to rip her clothes off so vigorously that her pockets and her belt were ripped off of her denim skirt. She said she tried to get help there but nobody would listen, she was pretty drunk (she had VIP tickets that came with an all you can drink bar) and was fixated on her lost bacon wallet. Unable to help her any other way I offered to walk down and help look for her wallet. So we went.

The show was over, the crowds were gone. We walked around the stage area for 20 minutes with a flashlight picking through the trash on the ground looking for the wallet. Nothing. But there was a light on in one of the circus tents, so we went over to it. We walked in to quite a sight, it was about a dozen festival employees counting out the take from the cash registers. There was tens of thousands of dollars in cash on the tables, literal piles of money, they were pretty shocked that we could walk right in like that so we had their full attention.

We told her story about getting assaulted losing her bacon wallet. They said sorry, they didn't have a lost and found. We'd have to leave or they'd call the police.

That was my opening, "Okay, call the police. We'd like to file a report that she was overserved, robbed, and sexually assaulted at your event."

There was a moment of silence, then an employee asked, "did you say 'bacon wallet'?" She rummaged through a tupperware bin under one of the cash tables full of backpacks, purses, wallets, and cellphones and handed over my friend's bacon wallet (her cash was gone but her ID and cards were all there).

We left, elated that we had won some small victory in such over a shitty event run by shitty people.
posted by peeedro at 5:12 PM on April 19, 2018 [143 favorites]

I would be really curious to see what would happen if literally every woman (or even just a large percentage of them) who was assaulted at Coachella were to file a police report. At very least it would probably make national news. I mean go Teen Vogue for running this story and I hope it catches white-hot fire and if this ends with Coachella being shut down as a warning to other festivals that they need to get serious about sexual assault then I'm totally fine with that, but if the Indio, CA police department got swamped with 10,000 women all wanting to report their assaults, I feel like that would make a stink that would be hard to ignore. Not that this should be on the victims to deal with, but it would be a hell of a sight to see.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:19 PM on April 19, 2018 [15 favorites]

There's simply no way you could ever eliminate people from getting groped, felt up or worse.

I think venue organizers can set expectations (e.g., "there will be a zero-tolerance policy for sexual harassment") and then empower attendees to enforce the rules (e.g., "if you see something, say something").

At the moment we're still in a culture where harassment or unacceptable behavior isn't explicitly defined, which in turn creates uncertainty ("Is he doing what I think he's doing? Well, I sure don't want to cause a fuss").

So there is a role for the venue to educate concert-goers about what is wrong, and how they can help make things better for everyone.

BTW, I caught the Beyonce set on YouTube, and it was one of the greatest things I have ever seen. Holy shit.
posted by JamesBay at 5:20 PM on April 19, 2018 [2 favorites]

Yes. We need ZERO TOLERANCE. Someone complains to a security guard about being groped, they should be required to call a supervisor and frogmarch out the attacker to security, then take down his ID, and I guess first time, mark an X on his stub, and toss him back.

You can't possibly be serious. You're saying that they should let a groper go back into the same crowd? Where the person who just reported him is? There are obvious serious safety issues there, plus the guy just committed a crime!! Should a pickpocket get a second chance? I had to read this three times to make sure my eyes weren't deceiving me.
posted by AFABulous at 5:23 PM on April 19, 2018 [42 favorites]

"At the moment we're still in a culture where harassment or unacceptable behavior isn't explicitly defined, which in turn creates uncertainty ('Is he doing what I think he's doing? Well, I sure don't want to cause a fuss')."
Oh, but see, yes except for every single thing you just said. We're for real not in the culture you describe. That's howcome you can read above to get the explicit definitions of the unacceptable behavior. Every person who's been groped knows that he's doing what she thinks he doing. Every person wishes it were possible to "cause a fuss" and not have it come to absolutely fucking nothing at all.
posted by Don Pepino at 5:24 PM on April 19, 2018 [3 favorites]

"Considering who runs Coachella, I have a hard time believing they'd actually care, regardless of cost."

Sounds like a good time for a class action lawsuit.
posted by Slinga at 5:25 PM on April 19, 2018 [3 favorites]

If you don't know when someone's grabbing your ass, please see a doctor about your sensory issues. Women know.
posted by AFABulous at 5:26 PM on April 19, 2018 [3 favorites]

It was only one act of cannibalism... probably. Can’t void his ticket for that.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:26 PM on April 19, 2018 [7 favorites]

So zero tolerance, just a brush-up on the concept, is when if you assault someone you get handcuffed, loaded into a vehicle, and driven to jail. You don't just have to watch while someone draws a gnarly black X on your souvenir. Ask any nonwhite guy if you want anecdotes.

You have a very good point. I was being incremental about it because I do not believe I can publicly endorse the idea of the process being "If the attacker isn't knifed by the victim, the security staff hauls him off, beats the shit out of him, and dumps him off at the State Troopers car in the parking lot."

I know that no festival organizer can endorse that, so I was keeping to the legally endorsable ideas.
posted by mikelieman at 5:26 PM on April 19, 2018 [1 favorite]

One legally endorsable idea, at least for the last several hundred years, is that assault is a crime. So it would be cops, rather than security guards, and they would be making arrests, rather than just mayhemming for kicks.

That bacon wallet shit makes me want to burn something down. They tore the pockets off her skirt, too. IT IS JUST SO SHITTY, and it makes me murdermad.
posted by Don Pepino at 5:30 PM on April 19, 2018 [21 favorites]

Ya know I have a story about this. I was 24.

So this one time I went to a festival with a sorta friend with my girl and his girl and it was fun and we all got drunk and that was fine and we were going to go home to get the tent to stay the night at the grounds. On the way out to the car, in the parking lot, a man started following us and shouting. Huh? I urged everyone to get in the car, but the man got behind our car and wouldn't leave until we talked to him.

He said my friend touched his girlfriend's butt. I was rather incredulous, also drunk, said, "Fine, call the cops and let's do this there, but hands off the car. I'll go along with my friend, but the girls are tired and your beef isn't with them, let 'em go." He did. I was furious at having my day disrupted and my friend's honor impugned. I didn't see anyone touch anyone's butt and I would be pissed if I had. I was walking a few paces ahead or behind him on the way out. I think I would have noticed. Our girls were right there too. Call the cops. I paid for these festival tickets and wanted to get back in, asshole.

Seven hours of grilling by the police later after getting out of the police station scott free at 2am, after missing the show, after insisting that I saw nothing, and ffs how drunk was I when I got here? I didn't see the man touch any butts, I didn't even know what the accuser looked like, my friend said, "Thanks for getting me out of that." I said, "Well yeah, I seriously didn't see you do it, so..." He said, "She had a nice ass, though." I said, "Huh? You saw her? I thought he was just some random dude and a girl trying to scam us out of ticket money or something." He said, "No, dude, I touched it. She had a nice ass."

I'll be telling my grandkids how much I regret not punching him in front of the police station.
posted by saysthis at 5:33 PM on April 19, 2018 [81 favorites]

I was being incremental about it because I do not believe I can publicly endorse the idea of the process being "If the attacker isn't knifed by the victim, the security staff hauls him off, beats the shit out of him, and dumps him off at the State Troopers car in the parking lot."


Nice strawman. Who is suggesting that this be the process?
posted by AFABulous at 5:37 PM on April 19, 2018 [9 favorites]

Nice strawman. Who is suggesting that this be the process?

Well, since I wrote that, I would be one person. That's what I'd LIKE to see, however no concert promoter can even appear to have suggested anything close, in fact screening for knives is one of their jobs.
posted by mikelieman at 5:39 PM on April 19, 2018

Jesus fuck mikeliman, you are not making yourself look better. You went straight from "zero tolerance means actually assaulters should get a second chance to assault someone before we do anything about it" to "well then i guess the ONLY ALTERNATIVE is to just have security beat the shit out of people in the parking lot, lol i guess this is unsolveable."

Maybe listen more, talk less for a while.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:44 PM on April 19, 2018 [22 favorites]

I'll be telling my grandkids how much I regret not punching him in front of the police station.

give me his contact information so i can visit him and explain my passions
posted by poffin boffin at 5:51 PM on April 19, 2018 [41 favorites]

"well then i guess the ONLY ALTERNATIVE is to just have security beat the shit out of people in the parking lot, lol i guess this is unsolveable.


I think you're reading too much into what I wrote, and should just keep in mind what I actually wrote.

Cheers!
posted by mikelieman at 5:52 PM on April 19, 2018 [1 favorite]

I guess first time, mark an X on his stub, and toss him back.

I think you're reading too much into what I wrote, and should just keep in mind what I actually wrote.

Just for clarity's sake.
posted by PMdixon at 5:55 PM on April 19, 2018 [4 favorites]

We know from other festivals that just having a policy and security trained to respond in the manner the policy dictates reduces incidences of casual sexual assault by low-hanging shitheads who take the lack of a policy as endorsement.

That leaves the more dedicated shitheads who either think they're above the rules or just think they have a window of opportunity, and then the really hardcore ones who are there for that purpose. Certainly you won't catch every one of those, but the ones that do get caught prove to the others that enforcement is real, and tends to empower bystanders to intervene/report/assist instead of freezing or being afraid to help, and that in turn additionally lowers the incidence.

Obviously you can't stop every incident just like you can't stop every burglary or car accident, but just like we still forge on trying to prevent burglaries and car accidents, progress is possible here too.

The hitch is that the Coachella organization has to care in order for any of this to happen.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:56 PM on April 19, 2018 [26 favorites]

just keep in mind what I actually wrote.

What I wrote was
"...if you assault someone you get handcuffed, loaded into a vehicle, and driven to jail."

Then you wrote, "You have a very good point." But then you wrote, "I was being incremental about it because I do not believe I can publicly endorse the idea of the process being 'If the attacker isn't knifed by the victim, the security staff hauls him off, beats the shit out of him, and dumps him off at the State Troopers car in the parking lot.'"

But my very good point was not that the security guards should commit felonious assault. My very good point was that law enforcement should enforce the laws. Even the laws about sexual assault.
posted by Don Pepino at 5:57 PM on April 19, 2018 [15 favorites]

The crappy thing about this is that most men will be (and currently are) conspicuously silent on the issue until their boy who they "just can't believe would ever do something like this" gets accused by a total "bitch" of groping her and kicked out of the show. Then they'll pipe up, for sure, and it'll be ugly.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 5:59 PM on April 19, 2018 [16 favorites]

I mean the answer is staring you in the face: If the problem is exclusively men, then we could actually achieve 100% success by banning all men from attending. bam. done. Now if for some reason there NEEDS to be men in attendance, I cant imagine why tho, the problem becomes a little more resource intensive. But I don't run shows, so that's kind of outside my area of expertise..
posted by some loser at 6:02 PM on April 19, 2018 [16 favorites]

Everyone who runs a large event knows that they attract people who potentially will commit crimes (because they attract humans beings). As the organizer of an event, you can create a safer environment for your patrons if you're not willfully blind to this. For example, some large events allow you a place to check your bag or other stuff so you don't lose it in the crowd. Its not 100% safe, but its significantly safer than dropping it somewhere in a seething morass of 10,000 drunk and semi-drunk concert attendants. But, anyhow, theft is taken very seriously (even if only because a person with their wallet stolen isn't going to be spending any more money) at most large events.

A significant part of the reason that sexual assault and harassment are rampant at these events (in addition to rape culture, entitled men, and lots of alcohol) is that they don't take it seriously. A large event that has a history of sexual assault incidents should have a clear code of conduct visible everywhere and broadcast regularly (like after every second song between acts and at the start of each set). There should be a clearly marked place to report incidents of sexual assault staffed by people who know WTF they're doing. Security should be trained to take accusations seriously and respond immediately. This also serves a side benefit of trying to educate men that we need to fix our shit.

If Coachella is unwilling to make improvements in how they handle sexual assault, they should be boycotted loudly and publicly and en masse. Bands should be shamed into turning down offers to play - or should refuse to play it until the situation is addressed.

I'm glad that this article was published and hope that Teen Vogue (and hopefully more publications) publicize events where this bullshit is rampant so we can minimize criminal behavior and, in doing so, create an atmosphere where people can enjoy their events with less fear.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:05 PM on April 19, 2018 [21 favorites]

I went to Coachella a couple of years ago, and I being old, couldn't stop telling everyone how unbelievably organized, clean, and well staffed it was, and how well behaved the crowds were compared to festivals of my youth. It was like the Disney version of music festivals, and most of my friends my age were very skeptical of what I was describing to them. I thought it was frankly kind of weird.

I don't have an answer, but I feel it's got to be a message and cultural shift, because I can't really imagine a physical solution besides flooding the place with security cameras. It seems it's about taking this problem seriously and not much else.

A lot of strip clubs will kick you out (and possibly kick your ass) for touching a woman is is purposely dancing proactively, mostly naked, right in front of you.
posted by bongo_x at 6:07 PM on April 19, 2018 [3 favorites]

On a side note, how do you only see 10 hours of a festival in 3 days? That's 3 hours and 20 minutes a day.
posted by bongo_x at 6:08 PM on April 19, 2018 [1 favorite]

I don't have an answer, but I feel it's got to be a message and cultural shift, because I can't really imagine a physical solution besides flooding the place with security cameras. It seems it's about taking this problem seriously and not much else.
I was just thinking about this - in addition to security cameras, tracking people via wifi/etc is a whole thing these days. Although it wouldn't get you proof that person A assaulted person B, it would prove that A was within 6 feet of person B at the point where person B mashed the "HELP" button in their Festival App.

On a side note, how do you only see 10 hours of a festival in 3 days? That's 3 hours and 20 minutes a day.
My assumption was because she was busy interviewing people about being assaulted.
posted by coriolisdave at 6:12 PM on April 19, 2018 [10 favorites]

We've seen (smaller) festivals as diverse as Afropunk (NYC/ATL) and Decibel (Seattle) implement zero tolerance policies or (at the VERY least) highly-visible messaging, whether it's business cards reading "consent is sexy" (they also had anti-assault messaging and helplines, iirc!) or putting up banners reading "NO SEXISM, NO RACISM, NO ABLEISM, NO AGEISM, NO HOMOPHOBIA...".

And this is a model that can absolutely scale up. Especially when Indio is--for all intents and purposes--Goldenvoice's company town for summer.
posted by raihan_ at 6:13 PM on April 19, 2018 [14 favorites]

"A large event that has a history of sexual assault incidents should have a clear code of conduct visible everywhere and broadcast regularly."
Do they also need to have a clear code of conduct about regular assault? How about theft? Ha ha, no! Ridiculous. Everybody already knows that those things are crimes and if they get caught doing them they'll get handcuffed and taken to jail.

What everyone knows about sexual assault is that it's not usually treated like a crime. That's why it never occurred to mikelieman that the cops might do something about it.

In order to fix this, Coachella needs cops. Not staff, not security guards. Cops. Lots and lots and lots and lots of cops. Like Mardi Gras. Mardi Gras is a huge crowd of high, plastered ne'erdowells, but at Mardi Gras you might get groped on the street maybe a couple of times a night, max, not twenty plus times. Because Mardi Gras is crawling with cops.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:21 PM on April 19, 2018 [7 favorites]

There's simply no way you could ever eliminate people from getting groped, felt up or worse.

There are computer vision systems that can watch you as you walk around a retail store and take note of what you stop and look at (e.g., or see more recently the Amazon Go store where you just pick up what you want and leave and the store's computer systems can figure out what to charge you and modify the store's inventory records.) I would expect that with a little effort the same technology could be applied to catch instances of groping that a person would be able to see, and perhaps with the sorts of sensors a self-driving car has you'd be able to detect groping even in a packed crowd.

All signs are that our society wouldn't dedicate the resources necessary to develop that but I think it makes sense to proceed with complete elimination of this stuff as a goal. We're going to be under closer and closer surveillance as time goes on for far more petty and stupid reasons, anyways.
posted by XMLicious at 6:26 PM on April 19, 2018

My understanding and my memory is that there are actual police officers at Coachella, both in-uniform and undercover. I don't quite know how we got on this tangent that there aren't?
posted by muddgirl at 6:27 PM on April 19, 2018

Here's what they're doing, apparently.

"There is an extensive list of festival rules, but Marshall said police have a list of four top don'ts: Don't bring drugs, don't bring drones, don't bring weapons and don't bring animals."

The "festival rules" link from the article is a 404, incidentally.
posted by Slinga at 6:36 PM on April 19, 2018 [2 favorites]

What everyone knows about sexual assault is that it's not usually treated like a crime.

This. So much this. Sexual assault is not taken seriously. I mean, law enforcement agencies and event organizers will make mouth noises about taking it seriously if pressed, but everyone knows that that's bullshit. Everyone knows that a man can grab a woman's ass in broad daylight in front of multiple witnesses and just walk away. You don't even have to be in a crowd. Shit, you can fucking do it at work and not even get a talking to from your boss in a lot of jobs. Women know this, men know this, everyone knows this.

The only way to change this is for the people who are in a position to do so—Coachella's organizers, in this case—to decide that that's not how it's going to be anymore, and actually make changes. That would mean things like telling their private security to make dealing with gropings and other assaults their top priority, leaning on the Indio PD to be hardasses toward assaulters (i.e. arresting them), and posting super clear notices everywhere that This Is How It Is Now, You Are On Notice. It would make a difference, while being much more politic than any of the proposals I made above, all of which I still think would be good ideas (aside from actually having assaulters stomped to death by hordes of angry women, which would be cathartic but inappropriate).

Dealing with or at least significantly mitigating this problem is totally within their abilities, they just have to actually care. The problem is that they don't, and the larger problem is that "not caring" is the societal default when it comes to sexual assault.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:52 PM on April 19, 2018 [26 favorites]

give me his contact information so i can visit him and explain my passions
posted by poffin boffin at 9:51 AM on April 20 [5 favorites +] [!]

I no longer have his contact info for reasons you understand. I defriended him and explained why to him.

A lot of strip clubs will kick you out (and possibly kick your ass) for touching a woman is is purposely dancing proactively, mostly naked, right in front of you.
posted by bongo_x at 10:07 AM on April 20 [1 favorite +] [!]

"There is an extensive list of festival rules, but Marshall said police have a list of four top don'ts: Don't bring drugs, don't bring drones, don't bring weapons and don't bring animals."

The strip clubs also have signs. NO TOUCHING.

Even places that explicitly sell groping usually draw a hard line at non-consensual or abusive behavior. Mob-run bordellos and corner pimps have better sexual harassment prevention policies than Coachella, as in, they have one. Even if it's just Big Pauly Knuckles by the door with the baseball bat or "Mink Trenchcoat" Joey Switchblade on the corner. The funny thing is, they don't even have to spell it out. If you have to ask for the policy, you really don't wanna know the answer. Same goes for, like, naked go-go bars in Thailand, where touching and everything else is pretty much on the menu. They will kick your ass too.

Alternatively, go read the websites of Nevada establishments where amorous company is available for hire. They usually contain very long lists of disclaimers. I hear Big Pauly Kuckles and Joey Switchblade might also moonlight there on the weekdays.

Coachella is actually doing worse on this issue than organized crime. How low is that bar I mean come on. Somehow Beyonce didn't get groped. This isn't hard.
posted by saysthis at 7:15 PM on April 19, 2018 [13 favorites]

I’m starting to lean toward, “If someone gropes you, kick them in the nuts as hard as you can.”

If they’re not going to catch Sir Gropes-A-Lot, they’re not gonna catch the Nutcracker Sweet either.
posted by Autumnheart at 7:15 PM on April 19, 2018 [19 favorites]

It's funny (aka annoying) how the people in the thread saying "well, there's probably no physical solution possible! it's a crowd!" are focusing on the physical, spatial aspect of a crowd.

As if sexual assault is something that's "naturally" just going to happen when people gather together. It's kind of a second-degree version of "she was asking for it b/c of how she dressed", but with crowds: "it was crowded! it was bound to happen! what did you expect? you can't prevent this!"

Imagine if you switched out 'sexual assault' with 'stabbing' or 'pickpocketing'.

--

I can already think of a gazillion things the organizers could do.

They could promote a culture of consent and have zero tolerance towards sexual assault and harassment and encourage people to report it. This wouldn't make it go away; it would, however help push against against the default assumption that sexual assault won't be taken seriously.

They could permaban people who sexually assault people. This would have a social effect amongst their peers ("WTF Paul, you can't go to tomorrow's show because you sexually assaulted someone??"). They could share lists with other festivals so that they wouldn't be able to go to other festivals. Warnings would spread quick online ("Be careful what you do, I have a friend who got banned for life"), and it would set a social precedent about how seriously the festivals take sexual assault. It would put the focus of scrutiny on the sexual assaulter, certainly not the person being assaulted.

More importantly, it would emphasize that the festival is being serious about creating a safe / harrassment-free atmosphere, and would encourage more people to speak out when they see something going on.
posted by suedehead at 7:16 PM on April 19, 2018 [13 favorites]

Pretty sure it’s entitlement and lack of consequences that allows men to grope, not crowding.

Also, if you’re worried that you’re groping instead of just trying to squeeze through a crowd: we can pretty much tell the difference. We’ve gotten training in this since we got boobs, if not before.
posted by rtha at 7:18 PM on April 19, 2018 [42 favorites]

If you're worried that your moving-through-a-crowd technique will be confused with groping, get better at moving through crowds. I speak as someone who has been described as "like a cross between a gazelle and a barracuda" when moving at speed through crowds, who has also never inadvertently groped or ground against someone.

FFS. Stop with the "but we can't tell the difference!"
posted by Lexica at 7:27 PM on April 19, 2018 [24 favorites]

Yeah, it seems pretty unrealistic to ask the festival to police stuff like this.

Bull. Shit.

Take a look at Dragon*con’s harassment policy. It’s the only damn place I haven’t been groped.
posted by _Mona_ at 7:28 PM on April 19, 2018 [20 favorites]

When someone accidentally bumps into you, they almost automatically back away, say, “Agh, sorry, excuse me” while making a point of not touching you. Someone trying to get away with groping somehow always manages to clumsily grab your ass cheek or boob, even though when you’re passing through a crowd, the body part you’re almost always going to come in contact with is a shoulder or a back. Especially since a lot of men are tall and a lot of women are short.

I’m a short woman and my elbows are directly at crotch height for tons of men, yet you know how many dudes I’ve elbowed in the crotch? Zero. And when I’m in a tightly packed crowd, I’m lucky if people even SEE me before they back right into my space or walk into me or step on me. And women are there too, know how many asses and boobs I’ve accidentally grabbed? None! So it seems incredible to me that a guy with 50 lbs and a foot of height on me somehow can’t figure it out. Just raise your hands up to your ears and they will be above boob and ass proximity for like 99% of the population.
posted by Autumnheart at 7:33 PM on April 19, 2018 [32 favorites]

Oh, shit. Wait. I know other people have and, as far as I’ve been told, it has been dealt with swiftly. Though perhaps not every instance, every time. I don’t know. I’m not going to dismiss anyone else’s experience.

What I do know (IME) is that they bounce people at the slightest whiff of harassment or potential assault. I can’t promise 100% effectiveness but they try hard (IME).
posted by _Mona_ at 7:37 PM on April 19, 2018 [2 favorites]

I wonder what the effect would be of hiring - and making it publicly known in advance - a plainclothes security staff of a few dozen women to boot/arrest gropers in situ.

They could also police the hired security; when they report an assault if the security guy doesn't take the report seriously then the security dude is fired, turn in your badge, do not pass go, do not collect your paycheck.
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 8:06 PM on April 19, 2018 [10 favorites]

I’m starting to lean toward, “If someone gropes you, kick them in the nuts as hard as you can.”

When did that stop being the default reaction?
posted by bongo_x at 8:37 PM on April 19, 2018 [1 favorite]

Kicking a groper in the balls has only ever been a fantasy default for me, because I don't want to risk being killed by someone who is probably way bigger and way stronger than I am. And, honestly, because if I do manage to kick him hard enough to put him down, I would bet money that an awful lot of people, possibly also including police people, would think I overreacted because come on, he just squeezed my ass and anyway how do we even know that's actually what he did? Did he even mean to? How can I, or anyone, really be sure???
posted by rtha at 8:49 PM on April 19, 2018 [40 favorites]

Somehow Beyonce didn't get groped. This isn't hard.

Mother effing mic drop.
posted by vignettist at 9:01 PM on April 19, 2018 [4 favorites]

ask the woman to make 100% sure it wasn't a friend playing a joke or something

Fuck that, throw them out and they can learn that groping their friends isn’t funny either. If a dude comes up and gropes a woman and a random bystander can’t tell if they even know each other, then he loses his being-out-in-public privileges.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 10:06 PM on April 19, 2018 [14 favorites]

A huge event was planned in Gisbourne NZ for y2k: Bowie at midnight, Kiri Te Kanawa at dawn, Split Enz and several other acts during the meantime.

When the news hit about the violence( including several rapes) at Woodstock 30 Bowie and Split Enz pulled out and the entire event was cancelled.
posted by brujita at 11:03 PM on April 19, 2018 [8 favorites]

I think the appearance of not taking reports seriously by security is a training issue, really. Some surely don't think it's a big deal even still in 2018. But more and more it's likely just that it's an awkward situation if you haven't been trained and don't have a clear policy. He said/she said, even though you believe the accuser you feel like you should have at least some objective evidence before you can justify kicking someone out, banning for life, etc.

I'm not saying it's right, but that's a thing someone needs to KNOW management approves of and expects in that situation, or they are probably not going to do the right thing. Human nature is to do the easier thing.

The good news is, having a policy and spending some money on training and expectation communication up front is an easy thing to do, especially when you're grossing millions. If you care, that is.
posted by ctmf at 1:43 AM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]

like why is "ban all large public gatherings" seen as a more workable solution than "teach men not to be rapists".

Speaking as a man who frequently despairs for my gender: in the foreseeable future of the human race, the male population will never NOT contain rapists. Massive public gatherings like this will never be entirely safe for women. The only way to change either of these things involve hypothetical science fiction technologies or gender segregation. Having the death penalty for this shit probably wouldn't even stop it. (And massive public gatherings pretty clearly won't be banned.)

I mean, teach men, for fuck's sake, yes! Reduced incidence of sexual assault is an incredibly important goal. But as for the question posed upthread, "what can Coachella do to stop this?", nothing. They, and the entire human race, can do nothing to stop this. They can only work to make it less frequent, significantly so in the best case.

And yeah, perhaps that's the real goal and I'm just being too literal about this, but the existence of these men has recently been pissing me the fuck off even more than usual, so I'm sorry for the rant.
posted by jklaiho at 1:57 AM on April 20, 2018 [2 favorites]

This is fucking bullshit.

I attend festivals, have crewed, been security, and done security reviews after events. The festivals I'm involved with, we have a zero tolerance for this bullshit. We educate, support, and enforce so that festival-goers can feel safe and be safe. That's everything from consent flyers in the portaloos to calling the police and pressing charges.

Anyone who says "nothing can be done" is part of the problem. Anyone who says these events "will never be entirely safe for women" is part of the problem.

Everything should be done, until these events are safe for everyone.
posted by happyinmotion at 2:53 AM on April 20, 2018 [29 favorites]

Yeah, I'm really tired of men--even men who are trying to be good allies--going, "Welp, I mean, we're never gonna have zero percent rape so I mean, what do you do? Even if you teach men not to rape or never ban public gatherings, sexual assault is just gonna be a thing."

WTF
posted by Kitteh at 3:10 AM on April 20, 2018 [37 favorites]

Anyone who says these events "will never be entirely safe for women" is part of the problem.

Well, I'd be fucking delighted to be proven wrong, trust me. Right now, I don't see it. I guess having zero actual rapes, even at the largest events, is doable. But none of your policies and their enforcement, no matter how thorough, are going to prevent a portion of the men in a packed crowd from doing less severe shit and some portion of them from getting away with it.
posted by jklaiho at 3:11 AM on April 20, 2018

Since when do security feel like they need "objective evidence" before kicking someone out of an event? This is a private event, it's not a fucking court of law. I have worked security, at a dance club—similar vibe in that there was lots of music and alcohol, lots of tightly-packed people dancing—and the standard of evidence was, "Boss says you gotta go." We didn't fucking convene a grand jury on the dance floor or sit there prevaricating—we ejected you, and under no circumstances were you allowed back in. No arguing. If we were wrong, tough nuts.

My understanding is that that's how security works at pretty much all such venues and events. They're not weighing evidence out on the floor. If somebody says you're causing a problem, out you go. If the problem is criminal in nature, that's for the police to deal with.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:17 AM on April 20, 2018 [20 favorites]

Even if you teach men not to rape or never ban public gatherings, sexual assault is just gonna be a thing. WTF

I explicitly stated that reduced incidence is incredibly important. It's a goal that society should absolutely do everything it can to further. No ifs or buts about it. But anyone who thinks that all men, including the violent sociopaths, can be "taught", and that sexual assault would cease being a thing in the future, is deluded.

Anyway, I'll show myself out. I'm too angry to have a productive conversation about this.
posted by jklaiho at 3:18 AM on April 20, 2018

jklaiho, so what? What is your argument from there? Because if it's anything other than, "Therefore we shouldn't even take steps to reduce sexual assault," I'm not seeing it. I don't understand your point.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:20 AM on April 20, 2018 [10 favorites]

But anyone who thinks that all men, including the violent sociopaths, can be "taught", and that sexual assault would cease being a thing in the future, is deluded.

Yup, that's me, a "deluded" woman who would rather not have to think about how much time I spend in my everyday life about not getting sexually assaulted in any situation. Yup, "deluded" about wanting a society where my nieces (or any woman) don't have to expend their energy growing up and living the same way.
posted by Kitteh at 3:25 AM on April 20, 2018 [18 favorites]

I love the notion upthread about using the Jumbotron to show offenders being dragged out. It’s a lovely inversion of the power dynamics in the situation of “guy proposes at baseball game, and the world watches [as the woman squirms],” and it may well be the same dudes.

I used to go to shows and I never did this. Who are these guys? Just enjoy the music, you pigs, and keep your hands to yourself. The back of the ticket for a hockey game warns the buyer they might get hit by a puck, but I bet those festival tickets don’t have verbiage about “some bro may let his fingers do the walking no probs!” on it. Disgusting.
posted by wenestvedt at 3:25 AM on April 20, 2018 [5 favorites]

Literally no-one is arguing that we have to have a plan that will stop 100% of all sexual crime before it's worth doing anything. Where is that ever the standard about anything? It's not how we treat violent crime, it's not how we treat property crime. Societies tend to consider reducing crime a worthy goal even though taking it all the way to zero is generally not realistic. Why so many men have felt like they needed to come in here and say, "Y'all are kidding yourselves if you think you can totally stop sexual crimes at an event like this," is beyond me. Like, thanks Captain Obvious, now what's your next point? Because the only reason I can think of to say something like that is as a precursor to, "…so why even try?" That's what's hanging out in the air every time a guy says that eliminating sexual assault at music festivals is impossible, and it has been said several times in this thread, always by men. If that's not what you intend, then kindly finish your argument because if you leave it there you kinda look like an asshole. If you didn't mean anything further by it at all and are "just sayin'," then kindly shut up.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:31 AM on April 20, 2018 [35 favorites]

Yeah, I'm really tired of men--even men who are trying to be good allies--going, "Welp, I mean, we're never gonna have zero percent rape so I mean, what do you do? Even if you teach men not to rape or never ban public gatherings, sexual assault is just gonna be a thing."

It’s abstract, theoretical thinking. From an omnitiemt long perspective, it’s true, and it feels wise and tough minded to say it, especially if you are in no particular danger yourself. It’s a very popular approach on the Internet. It also falls down when we get to real life. As many many people upthread have pointed out, we don't take this approach to most other crimes (although we’ll cheerfully victim blame someone who got their pocket picked or shoes ruined at a club because were too smart to make that mistake). Anyway, the real question is notthetheoretical “how do we limit all sexual assault everywhere for all time,” it’s the practical “how can we reduce sexual assaults at shows?” Of which there are many suggestions above.

Another factor in the “what are you gonna do?” approach is that, while most people are against sexual assault, they are even more against losing the shows and clubs they enjoy. To maintain those pleasures, they will tolerate a lot of assault of other people.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:53 AM on April 20, 2018 [17 favorites]

I’m starting to lean toward, “If someone gropes you, kick them in the nuts as hard as you can.”

Kicking or kneeing someone in the nuts means taking one foot off the floor, so can take you off balance. If you are up against a wall, this is ok - use the wall for balance. Otherwise, punching in the nuts is safer. I also totally get the fear of reprisals; I wonder if the application of chilli sauce down the trousers, while harder to pull off than a punch, gives a payback that will ensure that his mind is on other things for a good long time while you exit the situation.
posted by Vortisaur at 4:01 AM on April 20, 2018 [2 favorites]

I think a combination of two of these suggestions is genius. First, plainclothed female police officers. Odds are, they'll get groped at least sometimes. Every grope leads to an arrest, and a permanent ban from this and every other festival where their names are widely circulated. There's then a publicised campaign that if you get caught groping (police officer or not), you're arrested, charged and on the ban list - and then you have to explain to everyone why you're not allowed into anything anymore.

And you know, maybe if women starting firing off photos on their phone of men who do it in the moment and forwarding them to police, these handsy guys would think twice before before putting them where they don't belong.

For all you men who want to put pressure on women to just shut up and accept it because it's just the way things are, maybe if you applied that same pressure to your pig friends to knock it off, casual sexual assault would become socially unacceptable instead and leaving women alone would be 'just the way things are.'
posted by Jubey at 4:09 AM on April 20, 2018 [13 favorites]

I don't think increasing police presence is going to solve things (when was the last time you felt good about reporting your sexual assault to the police?). I would love it if Coachella and many other public spaces had an enforceable code of conduct, a coffee of conduct you agreed to when you purchased tickets that was repeated by organizers, artists, signs, tickets, etc., a helpline and designated set of staffers to report to who then had the power to remove assaulters and involve the police if desired, and also if guys would fucking stop feeling entitled to grab people's bodies in public.
posted by ChuraChura at 4:35 AM on April 20, 2018 [6 favorites]

I mean most large sporting events and other events I've been to have a "If someone is being a dick, text such and such a number and security will come deal with it" system. It's going to be harder at a festival where people are walking around rather than having fixed seating but it would be a start.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 4:40 AM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]

If a factory is overcrowded and the conditions result in an excessive number of injuries to the workers, they can be on the hook for financial and criminal penalties. Seems to me Coachella and other such venues should face similar risks. Maybe make attendees sign a good conduct contract as a condition of entry. Maybe not overcrowd your place so much that people feel they can grope and assault with impunity. Maybe announce the zero tolerance, undercover agents, video-recorded, ejectment and criminal prosecution policy over loudspeaker regularly during the event.

That's to say nothing about what the rest of us men can do. I don't really attend super-crowded concerts much, but I know when I'm on a packed subway, I'm actively angling and repositioning myself so as not to accidentally brush up against people, well women, well....people, I don't really like being touched much period but that's a whole other issue...the point is that as men there are things that we can do to help it from being socially permissible to "accidentally" brush up against strangers. If we can do our part to completely remove the excuse of "it's so crowded I couldn't help a little contact" from the repertoire of asshole creeps, then men will be more reluctant to engage in such behaviors in the first place.

I suppose that's one reason why people are saying that we're just being part of the problem if, instead of taking measures to destroy the comfortable existence of gropers, we're just shrugging that the situation is unsolvable. It's unsolvable in the current social climate because men are for the most part okay with it being unsolvable. We go home every day without having our dicks yanked uncomfortably by strangers, so it's easy for us to really not give a shit. I mean shit, straight men made being gay a potential capital crime through much of recorded existence because we got squicky with the mere thought of another guy flirting with us. Imagine if we had put half as much effort into preventing rape and sexual assault of women as we did in preventing the gay.

In the near SFnal future, concert bracelets could emit an RFID signal that electrostatically extends over the whole body. Two such fields come into contact for an extended time and the bracelets start flashing. Both parties would have to mutually cancel the flash in the case of a false positive, otherwise here comes security to make an arrest. The bracelets would also record a contact log for evidence.
posted by xigxag at 4:52 AM on April 20, 2018 [4 favorites]

Every performer takes two minutes before performing to say, "If someone puts his hands on you while you're here at the festival, text "[slogan]" to [number] so that we can get a count of how often this is going on."

One can also call eagle-eyed Eddie Vedder who STOPS A SHOW to call out a guy for harassing a woman which is some hardcore rockstar shit.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 5:29 AM on April 20, 2018 [26 favorites]

Interesting comment on the linked Pearl Jam clip:
'Here's what happened. Someone in front of me accidentally knocked me unconscious and I fell back. My friend caught me and carried me toward the front. We were about 5th row center and the closest place to safety was in front of the stage. This jerk wad a few feet in front of us wouldn't let us by to get my knocked-out butt to safety. So everyone nearby him started yelling and pointing at him to let us through. Thankfully a huge guy pulled me over the barrier to safety. You can see it at second 32 in the video in the bottom left screen. Eddie saw it and stopped him and kicked his jerkface out. Thanks Eddie! Super bummed I lost my 5th row spot for the rest of the night. I guess I"ll just have to see them yet again :)'
posted by asok at 5:50 AM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]

Also, if you’re worried that you’re groping instead of just trying to squeeze through a crowd: we can pretty much tell the difference. We’ve gotten training in this since we got boobs, if not before.

I went to one of the huge outdoor festivals when I was younger, and the line to get in was moving slow but people behind were pushing forward so there was a massive crush of people. I ended up wedged against the woman in front of me, unable to move, with my hand trapped between my leg and her ass. Even in that situation, with my hand literally shoved into her buttock, she could tell the difference. We made eye contact, I looked appropriately embarrassed, and we both shrugged since we couldn't move anything else.

Accidental contact is not the same as grabbing a handful. It's like the difference between a casual, friendly hug, and the hug from the person who gets too close and stays too long. They are both hugs, but only one of them feels gross.

At a minimum, these festivals should have clear policies and security people who feel empowered to toss out gropers. As others have said above, strip clubs and burlesque shows manage this; it's not an unreasonable expectation.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:03 AM on April 20, 2018 [13 favorites]

"You won't ever be able to do anything about drunk driving. I mean, what, are you going to have a car that won't start if there's alcohol on the breath of the driver? That's hypothetical science fiction technology! Are the police going to set up checkpoints and stop every single driver to nab the ones who got behind the wheel drunk? Preposterous! There's no point!"
posted by XMLicious at 6:21 AM on April 20, 2018 [14 favorites]

Stopping it begins with male allies saying "not cool" when they hear catcalls or sexist comments.
posted by brujita at 6:28 AM on April 20, 2018 [4 favorites]

Stopping it begins with male allies saying "not cool" when they hear catcalls or sexist comments.

There's actually an even lower bar: when women report dozens of instances of sexual assault at an outdoor concert, maybe men could have a response other than "oh well nothing you can do about it, I guess being sexually assaulted multiple times by multiple men is just the price women pay for existing in public spaces!!!" and repeatedly rules lawyering every possible suggestion for making the situation better, including measures that have been tried and proven to reduce instances of sexual assault in similar settings.

for example.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:43 AM on April 20, 2018 [49 favorites]

The festivals I'm involved with, we have a zero tolerance for this bullshit. We educate, support, and enforce so that festival-goers can feel safe and be safe.

My stepdaughter is going to be a volunteer for a group called A Voice for the Innocent at the Xfinity Center stop on the Vans Warped Tour in July. They've been working with the tour for a couple years, going on the road and doing outreach with resources for women who've experienced sexual violence or harassment, as well as educating the artists on the tour. This is the kind of thing that more festivals need to be doing if the problem is that rampant.
posted by dlugoczaj at 6:49 AM on April 20, 2018 [5 favorites]

It's very telling when that when sci-fi hypothetical possibilities come up, they're immediately dismissed out of hand when it affects the behaviour of men. Even when you say "everyone," we all know it means male behaviour.
posted by Kitteh at 6:54 AM on April 20, 2018 [7 favorites]

Aft, the men who grope begin with leers and catcalls.
posted by brujita at 7:01 AM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]

Example: Swedish festival allows no men to provide a positive festival experience to women.
posted by chapps at 7:53 AM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]

Does anyone know if this crime is as widespread at festivals held outside the United States?
posted by MrJM at 7:54 AM on April 20, 2018

The last time I was groped in public (at work, at a bar), I mentioned it to security and they kicked him out immediately. And I was quickly over the actual touching part, whatever, but it was literally the only time in my life that something happened, I said something, and there were consequences for the groper, which really did affect me for a long time after. And I almost didn't say anything. And when I did, I said things like, "Oh, maybe he was just drunk. I don't want to ruin his night." THESE THINGS CAME OUT OF MY MOUTH. I was stunned and disappointed with myself as I was saying them. But what are the chances that by saying something I would be questioned, or not believed, or shrugged off? Why put myself through that? And I only said something because I worked there and was concerned about other women, and I'm actual friends with security, and it was a very obvious, no-subtlety grabbing. And they have made a very obvious effort to make their bar a safe space. I have worked in other places where security people have warned me to watch my drink, as if it's a thing that just happens that they have no control over. Except there is no possible way that any security staff even in a relatively small club can watch every small interaction between people.

I can't even imagine the process of this happening in a festival situation, and honestly I almost didn't comment here because this thread is full of men coming up with convoluted security schemes that will never work, and it's so tiring. This is not an intellectual exercise. Don't fucking grope people.
posted by jeweled accumulation at 8:00 AM on April 20, 2018 [24 favorites]

I'm a woman who has been attending concerts since I was like 12. The first time I was groped at a concert, I was 15. My dudes, groping is just one of many shitty male concert-going tactics.

Men have ALWAYS tried to make live music a no-girls-allowed space. They have a million ways of doing it - the 6'6" guy who pushes his way through a crowd of people, who'd taken the time to get in place early to see a performer, to stand front and center; mosh pits, which tend to form annoyingly close to the stage and create a vortex of (predominantly) male violence; heckling (esp. of female artists); quizzing female concertgoers to determine whether they're 'real' fans. Groping is the sexualized version of this gendered violence, and it serves the same aims - the exclusion of women, and failing that, the reminder that our unwanted presence has costs.

White dudes pushing black women out of the way to see Solange last year is one example of entitled male concert-going behavior I've seen. I have my doubts that all those dudes were super into Solange - they just assumed proximity and centrality to a headline artist were their due. Another: I used to love seeing Gogol Bordello, but I haven't caught a show of theirs in years because the previous dance pits, where fans of all genders could bounce and dance together, have morphed into the usual male violence cyclone. Moshing itself I had given up much earlier, after a particularly bad groping incident (my bra strap was torn off) led me to realize that I had been groped almost every time I found myself in the pit.

'Girls to the front' was a powerful slogan in the riot grrl years because of the ubiquity of violent male behavior at shows, even/especially in music scenes ostensibly committed to equality. 'Girls to the front' cuts directly to the source of the violence - the generic male entitlement to space, centrality, and female bodies. Twenty dudes in a mosh pit can easily take up space where 100 fans could have taken in the show - they are committed to holding their territory through violence (however stylized and rules-bound it claims to be), irrespective of their interest in the music, the desire of the other fans to not be subject to random, potentially-painful physical contact, etc.

There is a lot that festivals/concerts/events in general can do to cut down on toxic male behavior, stuff that other major events have had in place for years even! More specific to music festivals, enforcing an anti-moshing policy would ameliorate SO MANY bad predominantly-male behaviors that are justified by even the potential of having a pit, and, as a bonus, weed out shitlord dudes who ONLY show up for the opportunity for socially-acceptable violence. It would help if artists made it a point to call out bad behaviors from the stage, to the point of pausing or ending a show if necessary, or they could refuse to book at festivals/venues without clear anti-harassment/violence policies.

It also would help if venue/festival anti-violence/anti-harassment policies were enumerated separately from the drugs rules. Every festival's guidelines include a sternly worded passage about how ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN drugs are and how thrown out your ass will be if you're caught with them, and also every festival I've attended has proven these rules to be the bullest of shit, having all occurred under a marijuana cloud large enough to create its own microclimates. It's totally fine to not enforce bullshit weed rules, but don't give patrons the impression that anti-harassment policies are similarly nominal (which also obviously would require their consistent enforcement).

Men could help by not groping women (even if she's crowd-surfing, my dudes!), not targeting women near or in mosh pits or maybe just not starting a pit in the first place, not trying to determine whether a given woman is a real fan, keeping an eye on and intervening as needed with their most jerkass friend(s) and/or jerkass strangers at shows. Also, if they want to be front and center for an artist, they should show up early and wait rather than counting on brute strength and the will to power to get a plum spot.




bias: i remain completely enraged to this day about the assholes moshing during madlib at pitchfork, i hope all of those dudes get ingrown toenails for life
posted by palindromic at 8:00 AM on April 20, 2018 [59 favorites]

I attend a variety of events where this kind of thing takes place. It strikes me that I can take action here.

I'm already not groping people. I also have an open policy of being a dance behind you bodyguard for any friend who asks. (I'm male and somewhat big and strong, so it generally works.)

It wouldn't take much for me to write to the organizers of the events I attend and the venue owners demanding a sexual assault policy and evidence that the policy is enforced.

I have seen the policy enforced at burning man and in dance clubs, so it is totally possible to do so.

If no policy is forthcoming, I'll write another letter about how my friends and I will not be attending. That is a couple thousand dollars they won't be getting, so it probably means something.
posted by poe at 9:24 AM on April 20, 2018 [5 favorites]

We know from other festivals that just having a policy and security trained to respond in the manner the policy dictates reduces incidences of casual sexual assault by low-hanging shitheads who take the lack of a policy as endorsement.

This. We went thru this discussion already about sexual harassment at cons, thanks to several well-publicized incidents. (MeFi's own!) John Scalzi and others publicly declared that they would not attend cons that did not have, and enforce, an anti-harassment policy. And it appears that what used to be a prevalent problem got better. GenCon, one of the largest tabletop gaming cons, has its harassment policy prominently posted at the entrances, and so far as I can tell the atmosphere is respectful and harassment isn't much of a problem.
posted by Gelatin at 9:32 AM on April 20, 2018 [8 favorites]

I'm going to start simple:

"I have loved attending your events in the past with a bunch of friends. I wanted to make sure you have a sexual assault policy for your events and that you enforce it."

I don't see why every attendee and artist can't do the same.
posted by poe at 10:15 AM on April 20, 2018 [7 favorites]

Even in that situation, with my hand literally shoved into her buttock, she could tell the difference. We made eye contact, I looked appropriately embarrassed, and we both shrugged since we couldn't move anything else.

Accidental contact is not the same as grabbing a handful. It's like the difference between a casual, friendly hug, and the hug from the person who gets too close and stays too long. They are both hugs, but only one of them feels gross.

See? NOT IMPOSSIBLE.

From the article: A stranger walked up to me and said that he loved my leopard-print suit. I thanked him, and he proceeded to say he’d love to get in the bathroom stall with me. When I told him not to talk to me like that, he exclaimed, "Whoa, that's a lot of attitude for a no-name model." Nobody around me did anything to help.

WRONG. If he said, "Ok, sorry, my mistake, sorry for the corny come-on," peace probably achieved, human dignity at least marginally maintained. Even if that was a...I mean it's a festival so kinda I get it...but...that's certainly not how I'd ask...but..."no-name model"...wrong. Sad. Would it kill ya to try to get to know her for 15 minutes ya moron? You gave a compliment, you had an in, she was talking to you. Really, second line out of his mouth. I devote more time to my selection of porn ffs. WRONG.

Also from the article, the actual author: This year, thanks to an invitation from SAFE, a sexual-health app that lets you show your verified STD status, I experienced my first Coachella adventure over the course of the first weekend.

We're not talking about propositioning nuns and monks here. Normal, sexually active humans. It's actually not hard to not be a creep about it.

Article again: Sexual misconduct is unfortunately a common experience at festivals, with one survey finding that more than 90% of female concertgoers have been harassed at a music event. In 2015, a photo of a man wearing a vile “Eat, Sleep, Rape, Repeat” shirt at Coachella went viral, a literal analogy for rape culture

THEY LET! HIM! IN! wearing that t-shirt. Upon it becoming viral, they did not kick him out. We can argue about the fine-grained details of how to stop sexual harassment, but I ask you, earth, does any effective standard include not kicking this man out? FFS. Consent motherfucker do you speak it.

Going away from this comment for a moment because ARGH.

Ok so, while I'm sitting here stewing (I have the luxury to stew, aren't I special) I'm listening to this. Reading so many of the comments here, and in previous threads on gender issues and sexual harassment, I see people here speaking what Amy Chua called in another Ezra Klein Show episode the "language of the coastal elite", which she argues is one of the markers of a specific tribe most Americans aren't a part of (hint, metafilter is mostly a part of it). Do I subscribe to that view, no, but I certainly believe that most people would say "I have the luxury to stew" rather than "I have the privilege to stew", and I think the conscious choice to use one word when I know the other is definitely a choice of audience, and I think it bears thinking about.

Without wanting to get into men's assumption of "entitlement to vs. achievement of" sex, both options of which are just WRONG, I have this to say - I think it's important to speak these concepts in dudebro dialect too. I'm picking out examples from the article and thread where I know, if I said these things to an Average Dude, I could hit home even as I speak the language of male entitlement to its native speakers (of which I am one). This is how my anger about it sounds, and I know it's not good enough, but I can't let that stop me from speaking about it.

I will say 1) the perfect is the enemy of the good, if I can get myself across I will, and by posting it I hope to model that, and 2) my language is insufficient for the long-term battle and I have things to learn.

Coachella isn't even f**king trying. Try, Coachella. Trying isn't hard, being perfect is impossible, but ffs, TRY. That's what I think after seeing my gut response a few hours later.
posted by saysthis at 10:16 AM on April 20, 2018 [6 favorites]

The thing about kicking someone in the balls is if you fail, the owner of the balls is going to at least try to give you the beating of your life.

I do, however, advocate large sharp safety pins carried half open in your hand. You can enter the show with it "It's holding up my pants!" and if you carry slightly open in your hand, any hand that grabs you gets stuck hard and deep.
posted by jfwlucy at 10:51 AM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]

I'm a guy. I went to Lollapalooza once. Would never go to one of these things again. The way people crowd in? There's simply no way you could ever eliminate people from getting groped, felt up or worse.

I've been to several lollapaloozas, including the very first one. The crowds were deep, thick and insane. A few people crowdsurfing throughout. But I didn't grope, feel up or "worse" anyone and that didn't happen to any of the friends who attended with me (all women) because even though everyone was pressed against each other, they kept their hands off each other. And many of us ignored the crowdsurfing idiots.

--

It's also perfectly possible to move through even thick crowds without groping people. Here in NYC we do it on the subway and on buses ALL the time. You simply don't grope or grab them and keep your hands to yourself. It isn't a hard concept, and it's not hard to do.

People who grope others do it deliberately. They don't grab or grope someone's ass, crotch or breasts by mistake. And the ones who do and try to play it off as an accident are fooling no one.
posted by zarq at 10:55 AM on April 20, 2018 [15 favorites]

From the article: “I was standing in line for water,” said Chantal, 19. “A guy picked me up and put me over his shoulder. I’m really small, so this happens to me a lot. Sometimes there are really great bystanders. There will be guys who will say, ‘Hey, get away from her,’ and it’s really cool when they do that.”

What kind of an asshole picks a total stranger up off the ground and throws them over his shoulder?

I’m really small, so this happens to me a lot.

What the fuck?
posted by zarq at 11:05 AM on April 20, 2018 [12 favorites]

From the Cochella website, here are the festival rules.
posted by tronec at 11:09 AM on April 20, 2018

I was a very small young woman back in the day (5'3", 98 lbs soaking wet) and being picked up by total strangers (men) was a thing that happened All The Time. I hung out back then with a varied group of men and women so someone always had my back.

But yeah. All the fucking time.
posted by cooker girl at 11:13 AM on April 20, 2018 [8 favorites]

I was a very small young woman back in the day (5'3", 98 lbs soaking wet) and being picked up by total strangers (men) was a thing that happened All The Time. I hung out back then with a varied group of men and women so someone always had my back.

But yeah. All the fucking time.
posted by cooker girl at 3:13 AM on April 21 [+] [!]

Yes. All the time. Happens to plenty of people I know. All the time.
posted by saysthis at 11:16 AM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]

That seems less like "rules" and more like "a list of things you can't bring". "Rules" should include a list of things you can't bring, but, in my opinion, should not be composed solely of said list.

They're really not doing anything about it. They've tried nothing, and they're all out of ideas.
posted by curiousgene at 11:16 AM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]

I attended a small anime festival earlier this year, and they had very large signs EVERYWHERE that said, "COSPLAY IS NOT CONSENT", with additional details about what would happen to you if you ignored that rule. Couldn't have been more clear or simple.

This is largely about changing the culture, and Coachella has to start by actually giving a shit. Hopefully this article will help.

(Also, for fuck's sake, men. Really.)
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 11:20 AM on April 20, 2018 [10 favorites]

They're really not doing anything about it. They've tried nothing, and they're all out of ideas.
posted by curiousgene at 3:16 AM on April 21 [+] [!]

I say this as someone who, like, y'know, like I would know, because I've been in the room when people organized a festival once or twice.

The idea is "let's get known as the festival where it's secretly ok to grope and cash in". That's a thought that happens. Kinda actually is. Kinda requires OMG ARE YOU SERIOUS SHUT UP AND NEVER SPEAK AGAIN from both inside and outside to make it not, which is a thing that seems to happen in most cases, so...the fact that it's not happening here...is...telling.
posted by saysthis at 11:53 AM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]

Also I say this from the position of an authoritarian country that is China which has a record of actively suppressing public freakouts about sexual harassment and/or using the same as an excuse for shutting down festivals so everybody's kinda paranoid but still, like, in liberal democracies do you know how you exert that pressure it's through public activism and the courts so it's like kinda obvious so ARGH SERIOUSLY.
posted by saysthis at 11:56 AM on April 20, 2018

Yes. All the time. Happens to plenty of people I know. All the time.

That's horrifying. :(
posted by zarq at 11:59 AM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]

What kind of an asshole picks a total stranger up off the ground and throws them over his shoulder?

I'm a (really tiny) male, and I've been picked up and carried a bunch of times by drunks, homeless guys, dudebros, etc., so I can only imagine it happens to petite women frequently.
posted by xigxag at 1:57 PM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]

What kind of an asshole picks a total stranger up off the ground and throws them over his shoulder?

The kind that thinks women are public property.
posted by brujita at 3:25 PM on April 20, 2018 [11 favorites]

It is progress from their preferred pickup routine, hitting women over the head with their caveman club and dragging them by the hair back to their tent. Coachella banned clubs, it's a safe space ladies!
posted by peeedro at 3:44 PM on April 20, 2018

There’s also the “throw the small person in the pool” routine. Which is EXTRA fun if the small person happens to have their phone in their pocket, which they will, because 2018.

There should be no excuses for this shit.
posted by faineg at 4:31 PM on April 20, 2018 [2 favorites]

I've been picked up and carried around and I'm not a small woman. I'm quite a large woman, in fact. The worst incident was why I've stopped attending the state Renaissance Festival. No, I won't pay to have some of my most fundamental boundaries violated, thanks.
posted by Squeak Attack at 4:37 PM on April 20, 2018

I'm a small woman. I've been picked up and thrown over someone's shoulder. I've also had complete strangers think it's funny to use my head as a rest for their beers (cos I'm so short, gettit?) and then tell me that I'm just the right height, while pointing at their crotch. Complete strangers. At these kind of events.

After all of this has happened, the same fuckwits also seem perplexed that I have resting bitchface and then top off their disgusting behaviour by saying I'd be really pretty if I just smiled. You know the worst curse I can think of for these men? I hope they come back as a woman, just so they can experience this.
posted by Jubey at 5:53 PM on April 20, 2018 [9 favorites]

Also a small woman who's been picked up and thrown over a (big dude's) shoulder. Smaller gross dudes tend to do that thing where if they think you're in their way, they take you with both hands by the waist and move you to the side (happened to me a few times when I've been looking at something in a store, standing with enough space away from the shelf to not be in the way of other people looking at the same items or from people passing behind me, and they want to look at something specifically from where I'm standing I guess?). Yuck.
posted by womb of things to be and tomb of things that were at 6:33 PM on April 20, 2018

Holy shit dudes will pick you up in stores? Like you'll be at the grocery store and some rando will just pick you up by the waist and move you out of the way? If that happened to me my bellowing outrage would be heard at the back of the fucking parking lot! I would use the LOUD ANGRY MALE voice that I save for the very most special of bullshit occasions. Possibly the offender would get an elbow in the face. I am outraged just thinking about that happening to me.

I had no idea. Every time I think I understand how bad women have it, I learn that I really have no fucking clue.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:55 PM on April 20, 2018 [8 favorites]

some rando will just pick you up by the waist and move you out of the way?

When I've seen this there was no picking up involved, just the gross move of resting his hands on her hips in a kind of caressing way right on the boundary of hip vs ass, and then shoving her to the side. Total entitlement, then dismissal.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:13 PM on April 20, 2018 [4 favorites]

if we accept that plainclothes security and cops are everywhere to bust drugs crimes in festival crowds, which of course we all do, then why not the same to stop sexual assaults? if men had 1/100th the fear of committing a sex crime in a crowd that they do of getting busted for drugs, society would be 100x improved.
posted by wibari at 11:24 PM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]

Every time I think I understand how bad women have it, I learn that I really have no fucking clue.

It's very simple: Most men do not believe women are humans. Notice how most guys treat dogs or cats - they're cherished when it's their pet, and indulged as long as they're cute and not in the way, fed and sheltered as long as they're useful. Animals they don't know are treated as a nuisance or, if they seem dangerous, a threat that can be attacked with impunity.

That is exactly how a sizable portion of the male population--the majority, in many places--treat all women.

If there were a cat standing in front of the shelf you needed to reach in the supermarket, and you believed it was harmless , you might well pick it up and move it aside. Women get treated like that.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:13 AM on April 21, 2018 [24 favorites]

Terry Crews: Men Don’t See Women As "All the Way Human"
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 2:40 PM on April 21, 2018 [9 favorites]

I'm a large woman, tall, broad, etc and I've been picked up and I've been....intimately redirected in stores by strangers. It's just part of moving through the world. I'm glad to be mostly aged out of it in.


my friend said, "Thanks for getting me out of that." I said, "Well yeah, I seriously didn't see you do it, so..." He said, "She had a nice ass, though." I said, "Huh? You saw her? I thought he was just some random dude and a girl trying to scam us out of ticket money or something." He said, "No, dude, I touched it. She had a nice ass."

did you walk back into the police station to tell them sorry you were mistaken as he just admitted it to you?


Almost 20 years ago at this point I was at Warped Tour. During the Save Ferris set Monique Powell yelled out "STOP GROPING THE UNDERAGE BOOBIES" and then she looked at security, did some pointing, and some guys were dragged out of the crowd (and I assume kicked out).

I think it was Lady Gaga who talked about having to wear 3 pairs of underwear to keep from being literally fingered if she crowdsurfed.

I am so sick of the entitlement, and tiny imaginations, of men.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 4:30 PM on April 22, 2018 [10 favorites]

JFC this thread is depressing with all of the strawmen and dismissiveness, but kudos to everyone who posted clear counterarguments and examples.

(Also, nthing that small women getting picked up and moved thing. Bonus humiliation: kicking and struggling and being angry is HILARIOUS.)
posted by desuetude at 9:09 AM on April 23, 2018 [5 favorites]

I think it was Lady Gaga who talked about having to wear 3 pairs of underwear to keep from being literally fingered if she crowdsurfed.

Iggy Azalea has said this, too.
posted by zarq at 12:43 PM on April 23, 2018 [2 favorites]

Group requests Tokyo Metro enforce women-only cars amid escalating male pushback

In which

the opinions that women-only cars "are odd because someone can't ride because they are male" and "discriminatory toward men" are deeply rooted. There is even a call online stressing "men's right to ride" in the cars.

posted by ctmf at 3:17 AM on April 25, 2018 [1 favorite]