Kickstarting Tech Unionization
February 18, 2020 3:25 PM Subscribe
In March of last year, employees at the tech crowdfunding Kickstarter, tired of the poor working conditions there, announced that they were seeking to form a union under the umbrella of the Office and Professional Employees International Union. In response, management engaged in anti-union tactics, including firing two employees engaged in organizing. In the end, however, with a vote of 46-37, Kickstarter's employees are now officially unionized.
Kickstarter United will operate as a local of the OPEIU, which has begun the preliminary process of setting up a collective bargaining agreement with the company.
Kickstarter United will operate as a local of the OPEIU, which has begun the preliminary process of setting up a collective bargaining agreement with the company.
I'm equally stunned and encouraged by this. Fingers crossed so freaking hard that this represents a turning point in the industry.
posted by treepour at 3:38 PM on February 18, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by treepour at 3:38 PM on February 18, 2020 [11 favorites]
This is amazing news. most people in the industry that I know are so stigmatized against unions I never thought I'd see the day
posted by Dr. Twist at 4:04 PM on February 18, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by Dr. Twist at 4:04 PM on February 18, 2020 [6 favorites]
✊
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 4:18 PM on February 18, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 4:18 PM on February 18, 2020 [7 favorites]
good news. Now let’s hope the union applies pressure to improve Kickstarter’s business practices.
posted by mwhybark at 4:24 PM on February 18, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by mwhybark at 4:24 PM on February 18, 2020 [4 favorites]
major side-eye at those 37%
I don't think it's 37%, I think it's just 37. 45%. Would be interesting to know the dynamics there - roles or anything like that.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:32 PM on February 18, 2020 [6 favorites]
I don't think it's 37%, I think it's just 37. 45%. Would be interesting to know the dynamics there - roles or anything like that.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:32 PM on February 18, 2020 [6 favorites]
A generation or so were swindled into thinking that fat was the nutritional enemy. It turns out the sugar lobby was behind it, and now many people are waking up to see fat as an integral part of a healthy diet.
The same generation were swindled into thinking that unions were the economic enemy, guess who was behind it.
I’m optimistic; I think our skilled workers are waking up to see unions as a vital force in their lives. And much like they started buying gallons of coconut oil just a few years ago, this may be the first of a few slides that herald an avalanche.
We can hope.
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:46 PM on February 18, 2020 [31 favorites]
The same generation were swindled into thinking that unions were the economic enemy, guess who was behind it.
I’m optimistic; I think our skilled workers are waking up to see unions as a vital force in their lives. And much like they started buying gallons of coconut oil just a few years ago, this may be the first of a few slides that herald an avalanche.
We can hope.
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:46 PM on February 18, 2020 [31 favorites]
If the bosses aren’t mortally afraid, they are pure poison.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:54 PM on February 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:54 PM on February 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
Good for them. I work in tech and am in a union (gov't) and we've had people come in from private industry because they want the stability and protection. We had one guy come in from a career in video games development, and the money maybe changed a little in absolute terms, but he was making more per hour as an entry level coder, easy. He advanced quick, and within a few years, he's making more now than before and he gets to see his kid every night instead of working crazy overtime and hoping that marketing doesn't eat up the project end "bonus" money.
I know another guy who had the opportunity to go into management and make more money, but he didn't because he likes the union protections. And other people who did go into management and are kinda miserable at the switch.
Once people get a taste of fair working conditions, reasonable hours, stable benefits and fair firing practices it's amazing how much the attitude tends to turn around. Who knew!
posted by mrgoat at 5:08 PM on February 18, 2020 [21 favorites]
I know another guy who had the opportunity to go into management and make more money, but he didn't because he likes the union protections. And other people who did go into management and are kinda miserable at the switch.
Once people get a taste of fair working conditions, reasonable hours, stable benefits and fair firing practices it's amazing how much the attitude tends to turn around. Who knew!
posted by mrgoat at 5:08 PM on February 18, 2020 [21 favorites]
(for clarity here. by no means a math person, but 46+37=83, so 46/83=.554ish. Therefore the percentiles are about 55% yes to 45% no. Possibly odinsdream’s sideeye increased from directing it at 37% to directing it at 45%. posted due to personal confusion and resolution, felt I should show my work. carry on.)
posted by mwhybark at 5:09 PM on February 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by mwhybark at 5:09 PM on February 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
(I see that save alive nothing that breatheth said the same thing. I could not understand the post because I read “37. 45%.” as “37.45%.”)
posted by mwhybark at 5:12 PM on February 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by mwhybark at 5:12 PM on February 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
am looking at Hacker News, reading the "but mah meritocracy!" comments, and lolling.
posted by Sauce Trough at 5:16 PM on February 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by Sauce Trough at 5:16 PM on February 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
I'm just shocked kickstarter only has 83 non-management employees. Or at least, 83 employees who participated in the vote. Is the company actually that small, or do they employ hundreds of contract workers who have even less rights and privileges?
posted by thecjm at 5:17 PM on February 18, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by thecjm at 5:17 PM on February 18, 2020 [3 favorites]
I have a Kickstarter campaign going on now as part of Zine Quest and there have been a bunch of backers who have checked in to see if you are pro-Union before backing. My zine is about aliens and Reptilians and so on in D&D, so I only got a few, but my buddy who is just completed a pitch for corporations as fantasy antagonists was inundated.
So good on the backers for getting the word out as well, hopefully by getting both backers and creators on board, the fledgling Union will have a bit of a shield against any possible management fuckery.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:28 PM on February 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
So good on the backers for getting the word out as well, hopefully by getting both backers and creators on board, the fledgling Union will have a bit of a shield against any possible management fuckery.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:28 PM on February 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
*strums guitar* "Money speaks for money, the devil for his own..."
posted by praemunire at 5:39 PM on February 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 5:39 PM on February 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
I am really interested in seeing the compensation methodology that comes out of Kickstarter. My opposition to unionization in tech is that I've never seen a (non-athletic) unionized company that effectively compensates by performance [*], whereas I've seen several non-unionized companies that at least sort of compensate by performance [**]. Perhaps Kickstarter will help me move towards appreciating unionization.
[*] Justification: unionized compensation seems to always end up heavily correlated to number of years of experience, whereas my experience with tech employees is that effectiveness of an employee is only loosely correlated with number of years of experience.
[**] Caveat: I don't believe that non-unionized companies entirely pay by performance
posted by saeculorum at 5:40 PM on February 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
[*] Justification: unionized compensation seems to always end up heavily correlated to number of years of experience, whereas my experience with tech employees is that effectiveness of an employee is only loosely correlated with number of years of experience.
[**] Caveat: I don't believe that non-unionized companies entirely pay by performance
posted by saeculorum at 5:40 PM on February 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm just shocked kickstarter only has 83 non-management employees.
"Eighty-eight of Kickstarter’s 145 employees were considered eligible to vote because they were not in managerial roles; five did not cast ballots." - from NYT article.
posted by saeculorum at 5:46 PM on February 18, 2020
"Eighty-eight of Kickstarter’s 145 employees were considered eligible to vote because they were not in managerial roles; five did not cast ballots." - from NYT article.
posted by saeculorum at 5:46 PM on February 18, 2020
Would be interesting to know the dynamics there - roles or anything like that.
Guessing the 37% is the software engineers. Not super familiar with the Brooklyn market, but up in the Valley even someone with 3-5 years experience is looking at about at least quarter million in total comp a year at one of the major engineering companies.
Edit: To clarify, they are probably getting "cold called" a few times a week from recruiters pushing those roles. So, less incentive to unionize when it's so easy to get a job these days.
posted by sideshow at 5:49 PM on February 18, 2020
Guessing the 37% is the software engineers. Not super familiar with the Brooklyn market, but up in the Valley even someone with 3-5 years experience is looking at about at least quarter million in total comp a year at one of the major engineering companies.
Edit: To clarify, they are probably getting "cold called" a few times a week from recruiters pushing those roles. So, less incentive to unionize when it's so easy to get a job these days.
posted by sideshow at 5:49 PM on February 18, 2020
Saeculorum, that’s an interesting criterion by which to judge. Do you see that as an issue of individual-level fairness? I would think that the main purpose of unions is to minimize abuse and exploitation and maximize general welfare of the workers, so it’s not at all surprising that unions wouldn’t focus on tying compensation to performance. Is your goal ensuring the strongest relationship between compensation and performance, even at the expense of worker safety, job stability, etc?
posted by col_pogo at 5:49 PM on February 18, 2020
posted by col_pogo at 5:49 PM on February 18, 2020
My opposition to unionization in tech is that I've never seen a (non-athletic) unionized company that effectively compensates by performance [*], whereas I've seen several non-unionized companies that at least sort of compensate by performance [**].
Counterpoint: your notion of "performance" is an invention designed to provide a supposedly objective basis for the appropriation of most of the value of your labor and the provision of the absolute minimum of security that the company can get away with, also to divide you from your natural allies, your colleagues, and persuade you your interests lie with people who would sell you for a can of Spam.
posted by praemunire at 5:52 PM on February 18, 2020 [71 favorites]
Counterpoint: your notion of "performance" is an invention designed to provide a supposedly objective basis for the appropriation of most of the value of your labor and the provision of the absolute minimum of security that the company can get away with, also to divide you from your natural allies, your colleagues, and persuade you your interests lie with people who would sell you for a can of Spam.
posted by praemunire at 5:52 PM on February 18, 2020 [71 favorites]
Is your goal ensuring the strongest relationship between compensation and performance, even at the expense of worker safety, job stability, etc?
Yes. As a tech worker (albeit not software engineering), my chance of a workplace injury is trivial. I recognize my job is unstable, but I get compensated highly as a result (embarrassingly more than an average American worker and a bit over 2.5x what I received at my previous company in the same job). Further, I've worked with incompetent/lazy coworkers before, and I've left companies as a result because it drives me crazy. I'm highly interested in avoiding that situation again. I'm currently willing to trade stability for improving my compensation and coworker quality. I don't expect everyone else to make the same trade - and I think it's great to have multiple employment models that pop up to accommodate those people - but for the moment, I'll advocate for my own interests and oppose unionization at my employer.
posted by saeculorum at 5:54 PM on February 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
Yes. As a tech worker (albeit not software engineering), my chance of a workplace injury is trivial. I recognize my job is unstable, but I get compensated highly as a result (embarrassingly more than an average American worker and a bit over 2.5x what I received at my previous company in the same job). Further, I've worked with incompetent/lazy coworkers before, and I've left companies as a result because it drives me crazy. I'm highly interested in avoiding that situation again. I'm currently willing to trade stability for improving my compensation and coworker quality. I don't expect everyone else to make the same trade - and I think it's great to have multiple employment models that pop up to accommodate those people - but for the moment, I'll advocate for my own interests and oppose unionization at my employer.
posted by saeculorum at 5:54 PM on February 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
As a tech worker (albeit not software engineering), my chance of a workplace injury is trivial. I recognize my job is unstable, but I get compensated highly as a result.Your chances of getting injured doing physical labor are low but your chances of unhealthy lifestyle, unpaid overtime, and being placed in stressful situations due to poor management are fairly good. Not to mention your chances of being laid off, outsourced, or sidelined after 40 — and if you think that won’t happen to you, ask how many of the IBM employees who were recently discriminated against incorrectly believed the same thing years earlier.
Tech workers have above-average negotiating power but most of us are not part of the owner class and even at companies like Google they’re aware of that distinction even if many of their workers try not to be. They’re paying more now — thanks to losing a lawsuit which required paying less than they saved — but they’re going to work to reduce that expense whenever possible.
Further, I've worked with incompetent/lazy coworkers before, and I've left companies as a result because it drives me crazy. I'm highly interested in avoiding that situation again.Good news: firing for cause is still possible with a union. All a union means is that management can’t fire someone capriciously without cause. If they have troubles hiring effectively or giving expectations and accountability, that’s a management problem.
posted by adamsc at 6:10 PM on February 18, 2020 [46 favorites]
I will suggest also that a lot of "low performance" workers could be improved if your company has your "high performance" workers mentor your "low performance" workers. As a tech worker in software engineering, I can tell you that the majority of low performance workers are that way because no one wants to teach them. There's a skill and an art that a comp-sci degree won't teach you.
But I know from personal experience that taking a low skill person and pairing them with a more senior person who can invest some time building their skill works, both for the workers and the organization.
Not to completely downplay the danger though, I've also seen some people who work just hard enough to get to a certain level, then coast, doing juuust enough not to get terminated. I agree that it's frustrating. It's just not all that common - IME, if your workforce feels like they're treated well, most people like doing a good job.
posted by mrgoat at 6:16 PM on February 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
But I know from personal experience that taking a low skill person and pairing them with a more senior person who can invest some time building their skill works, both for the workers and the organization.
Not to completely downplay the danger though, I've also seen some people who work just hard enough to get to a certain level, then coast, doing juuust enough not to get terminated. I agree that it's frustrating. It's just not all that common - IME, if your workforce feels like they're treated well, most people like doing a good job.
posted by mrgoat at 6:16 PM on February 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
I work in a highly unionized environment and paying for performance is largely handled through stratification of job streams into different levels. If one junior programmer is better at her job than another junior programmer, she gets promoted to programmer faster and makes more money. But even those promotions have to go through a bit of a process to verify that she actually is qualified to move up a level and not that she is just the one the boss likes best. That is not a foolproof system but it sure makes things clearer for everyone,
posted by jacquilynne at 6:21 PM on February 18, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 6:21 PM on February 18, 2020 [11 favorites]
I'm a lawyer so my chance of workplace injury is also trivial. I love my union so much. It ensures that women and people of color, and especially women of color are compensated fairly and equally. (I have heard this is a problem in tech.) It makes sure we can have a work/life balance. (I have heard this is a problem in tech.) It gives people a structured mechanism for addressing workplace problems. (I have heard this is a problem in tech.) It also helps us harness our collective power to avoid chasing performance metrics that will grind us into dust. (I have heard this is a problem in tech.)
posted by Mavri at 6:28 PM on February 18, 2020 [62 favorites]
posted by Mavri at 6:28 PM on February 18, 2020 [62 favorites]
I'm in a union, though my chances of workplace injury are negligible, though I'm paid well above the award, and though my chances of picking up other work if I'm fired are pretty good. It's because when my boss and I go to talk about how I do my work, being in a union lets me/us negotiate with respect, something individuals can't do.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 6:47 PM on February 18, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 6:47 PM on February 18, 2020 [3 favorites]
I've never had the chance of working in a unionized job; there is a lot that is appealing about it. When I was young, a lot of older people would talk about their bad experiences with old-school unions -- but that era of corrupt union officials has been over for a long time, and in the meantime the erosion in worker protections just keeps getting worse.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:05 PM on February 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 7:05 PM on February 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
I am someone who is lucky / blessed / whatever to have had a 96% stable 25-year career in software development. I've survived a bunch of layoffs, annually gotten above-median performance reviews, consider myself to be at least competent at my job and I definitely can't complain about the pay.
but I still want a union because who else is going to negotiate away all the open concept offices and unpaid overtime?
posted by Sauce Trough at 7:28 PM on February 18, 2020 [29 favorites]
but I still want a union because who else is going to negotiate away all the open concept offices and unpaid overtime?
posted by Sauce Trough at 7:28 PM on February 18, 2020 [29 favorites]
All a union means is that management can’t fire someone capriciously without cause.
Unions also often collectively work against contracting and outsourcing. They certainly can't prevent it, especially contracting out, but they can often stop contracting in, and benefits manipulation.
posted by bonehead at 7:29 PM on February 18, 2020 [7 favorites]
Unions also often collectively work against contracting and outsourcing. They certainly can't prevent it, especially contracting out, but they can often stop contracting in, and benefits manipulation.
posted by bonehead at 7:29 PM on February 18, 2020 [7 favorites]
Tech is well known for paying entirely based on achievement, especially for women and people of colour, so surely a union couldn't help with ensuring pay is fair.
posted by jeather at 7:29 PM on February 18, 2020 [18 favorites]
posted by jeather at 7:29 PM on February 18, 2020 [18 favorites]
"Don't worry, the leopards would never eat my face..."
posted by gc at 8:10 PM on February 18, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by gc at 8:10 PM on February 18, 2020 [6 favorites]
I, for one, am excited to see which VCs start citing labor movements as the reasons they withhold capital from start-ups.
posted by Reyturner at 8:16 PM on February 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Reyturner at 8:16 PM on February 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
I, for one, am excited to see which VCs start citing labor movements as the reasons they withhold capital from start-ups.
Kickstarter is pretty unique as a company because they've only ever had one round of funding - in 2009 when the company started - for a meager $10M. They're one of the few (only?) "trendy" tech companies that has scaled their growth from revenue rather than from venture capital and/or public offerings. Even Craigslist has raised more money ($13.5M)!
posted by saeculorum at 8:20 PM on February 18, 2020 [10 favorites]
Kickstarter is pretty unique as a company because they've only ever had one round of funding - in 2009 when the company started - for a meager $10M. They're one of the few (only?) "trendy" tech companies that has scaled their growth from revenue rather than from venture capital and/or public offerings. Even Craigslist has raised more money ($13.5M)!
posted by saeculorum at 8:20 PM on February 18, 2020 [10 favorites]
The weird thing for me is that the company I work for is highly diverse and inclusive, pays well, and has an exceptional work/life balance. We have that unlimited time off policy, but people actually make good use of it, at least from what I've seen on my team. It's an energizing, generally happy and fun place to work.
And I would still love to unionize because what I described is more of the exception than the rule. Even, or perhaps especially, in software. Not only would it be great for everybody to enjoy what I do—a rising tide and all that—but it would provide so much more mobility to everyone, including myself. In much the same way that decoupling healthcare from employment would.
posted by Godspeed.You!Black.Emperor.Penguin at 8:53 PM on February 18, 2020 [11 favorites]
And I would still love to unionize because what I described is more of the exception than the rule. Even, or perhaps especially, in software. Not only would it be great for everybody to enjoy what I do—a rising tide and all that—but it would provide so much more mobility to everyone, including myself. In much the same way that decoupling healthcare from employment would.
posted by Godspeed.You!Black.Emperor.Penguin at 8:53 PM on February 18, 2020 [11 favorites]
I'm in software and for a long time I wasn't necessarily anti-union but I didn't really see the need for one at my company. It was a good place to work with great perks and reasonable work-life balance, and I felt fairly treated by my bosses.
Well, the leadership has changed a lot at my company in the intervening years, and at this point, I wish we'd started a union when it might have been relatively easy to get it done, because these days they are firing anyone who starts making any noise about organizing. The best time to start a union is when you don't think you really need one. Once you do, your bosses have already hired union-busting consultants who will tell them to make examples of a few squeaky wheels.
Good on Kickstarter. Hope this spreads, although there are good reasons to think it won't.
posted by potrzebie at 10:09 PM on February 18, 2020 [16 favorites]
Well, the leadership has changed a lot at my company in the intervening years, and at this point, I wish we'd started a union when it might have been relatively easy to get it done, because these days they are firing anyone who starts making any noise about organizing. The best time to start a union is when you don't think you really need one. Once you do, your bosses have already hired union-busting consultants who will tell them to make examples of a few squeaky wheels.
Good on Kickstarter. Hope this spreads, although there are good reasons to think it won't.
posted by potrzebie at 10:09 PM on February 18, 2020 [16 favorites]
I've heard saeclorum's arguments a bunch of times, and I definitely empathize -- I've worked with a lot of people, including at really big tech companies, who just. couldn't. do. the. job, and weren't ever going to get there, no matter how much help and mentoring they were offered.
I don't think unions would make one whit of difference, though. Sure, it becomes slightly harder to fire people, but as far as I can tell, the problem is when management doesn't really know who is performing well and who isn't, and the most effective system I've seen is to just not hire the really low performers in the first place.
Meanwhile, the owner class at my employer deserves to pay for what they have done. I can't understand why my coworkers have any trust in my employer's ownership or management, given the repeated evidence that they're shitty people who only seem to care about their shitty executive-level peers.
Hollywood's various unions ("guilds") seem to do pretty well at dealing with vastly different skill and compensation levels.
Hopefully Kickstarter's unionization is the start of a trend.
posted by reventlov at 10:37 PM on February 18, 2020 [11 favorites]
I don't think unions would make one whit of difference, though. Sure, it becomes slightly harder to fire people, but as far as I can tell, the problem is when management doesn't really know who is performing well and who isn't, and the most effective system I've seen is to just not hire the really low performers in the first place.
Meanwhile, the owner class at my employer deserves to pay for what they have done. I can't understand why my coworkers have any trust in my employer's ownership or management, given the repeated evidence that they're shitty people who only seem to care about their shitty executive-level peers.
Hollywood's various unions ("guilds") seem to do pretty well at dealing with vastly different skill and compensation levels.
Hopefully Kickstarter's unionization is the start of a trend.
posted by reventlov at 10:37 PM on February 18, 2020 [11 favorites]
I've never been a member of a union but during my internship with the federal government, my wage and other provisions were set by the collective agreement. Unions and their members can look out for *all* the workers, including those who don't carry a card.
posted by klanawa at 10:51 PM on February 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by klanawa at 10:51 PM on February 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
"I don't support unions because all a union does is enable free riders" is a sentiment I most often hear expressed by folks apparently disinclined to ponder the question of why the conditions they're expected to work under are anywhere from tolerable to pleasant.
Clearly they're talking about all those other free riders.
posted by flabdablet at 4:44 AM on February 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
Clearly they're talking about all those other free riders.
posted by flabdablet at 4:44 AM on February 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
I feel like the arguments for and against unionization are getting a little too abstract, which is what makes it possible for the anti-labor crowd to start crowing about unions making it impossible to fire shitty coworkers (which they don't, but bear with me here).
What we need to do is start emphasizing again that unions came about as an alternative to the previous way workers had of addressing grievances with their employers: breaking down the bosses' front doors and beating them to death. It probably wouldn't take more than one or two incidents of the latter before management changed its tune on the former.
posted by Mayor West at 6:17 AM on February 19, 2020 [8 favorites]
What we need to do is start emphasizing again that unions came about as an alternative to the previous way workers had of addressing grievances with their employers: breaking down the bosses' front doors and beating them to death. It probably wouldn't take more than one or two incidents of the latter before management changed its tune on the former.
posted by Mayor West at 6:17 AM on February 19, 2020 [8 favorites]
Anybody seriously thinking of trying that tactic should be aware that what the managerial class would actually do in response is agitate for even stronger legislation against "union thuggery" and probably get it.
posted by flabdablet at 6:45 AM on February 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 6:45 AM on February 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
I've heard saeclorum's arguments a bunch of times, and I definitely empathize -- I've worked with a lot of people, including at really big tech companies, who just. couldn't. do. the. job, and weren't ever going to get there, no matter how much help and mentoring they were offered.
I've heard them a bunch of times, and have no sympathy for them for the following reasons:
* In genuine cases of workers incapable of or unwilling to do the job, this is purely a management issue where managers are refusing to do a major part of their job. This is why those charts that proclaim to show how "hard" it is to fire a teacher infuriate me - they almost always include documenting performance on the timeline, which is something that is part of managing people.
* The reality is that such genuine cases tend to be rare.
* Many times, "incompetent" actually means "the company refuses to invest in its workers, and so weaker workers do not get the support they need."
* Many times, "lazy" actually means "this worker understands work/life balance and has set boundaries on their relationship with work."
* The tech industry has a toxic mentality that tech needs to be one's life to be successful. This needs to be killed with fire.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:08 AM on February 19, 2020 [28 favorites]
I've heard them a bunch of times, and have no sympathy for them for the following reasons:
* In genuine cases of workers incapable of or unwilling to do the job, this is purely a management issue where managers are refusing to do a major part of their job. This is why those charts that proclaim to show how "hard" it is to fire a teacher infuriate me - they almost always include documenting performance on the timeline, which is something that is part of managing people.
* The reality is that such genuine cases tend to be rare.
* Many times, "incompetent" actually means "the company refuses to invest in its workers, and so weaker workers do not get the support they need."
* Many times, "lazy" actually means "this worker understands work/life balance and has set boundaries on their relationship with work."
* The tech industry has a toxic mentality that tech needs to be one's life to be successful. This needs to be killed with fire.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:08 AM on February 19, 2020 [28 favorites]
Any tech contractors who'd be interested in forming a solidarity union under the IWW umbrella? Maybe we should chat...
posted by Sheydem-tants at 8:23 AM on February 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Sheydem-tants at 8:23 AM on February 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Couple comments deleted. If you think a claim is wrong, go ahead and say why or give people something to at least know what you're talking about, don't just obliquely condemn the whole thread.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:47 AM on February 19, 2020
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:47 AM on February 19, 2020
I am really interested in seeing the compensation methodology that comes out of Kickstarter. My opposition to unionization in tech is that I've never seen a (non-athletic) unionized company that effectively compensates by performance [*], whereas I've seen several non-unionized companies that at least sort of compensate by performance [**]. Perhaps Kickstarter will help me move towards appreciating unionization.
Many Americans are only really exposed to unions in the context of jobs which are very non-differentiated so this is a common concern. You have noted that athletic unions are an exception you are aware of.
There are other areas of work where individual performance varies highly which are nonetheless unionised. Notably, the whole of the entertainment industry. Film and TV directors, writers, and actors are all unionised and their relative performance and earning potential varies very widely. They are few barriers to dismissing them off a project when they are not working out. In other words, it is perfectly possible to tailor what a union does and does not do based on the needs of the industry.
I imagine a tech industry union would do things like create a set of standards for how options, RSUs, etc. are awarded but *without* mandating the use of only one kind of incentive and definitely without setting the level of these awards.
A tech industry union might require "take home" interview problems to be paid.
A tech industry union might require overtime pay over a certain number of working hours... but might very well allow exceptions to that rule for employees with sufficient "skin in the game". Alternatively, members might prefer that the union does not get involved in this.
To look at what unions negotiated for people who worked on enormous assembly lines as interchangeable parts and say, "I don't want that", is perfectly reasonable but remember that the union negotiates within the reality of how the industry already works. If an employer treats its workers as a fully interchangeable assembly line worker then the union will structure its contract negotiations around that but it is the nature of the work and the decisions of the employer that cause the interchangeability, not a demand of the union.
posted by atrazine at 10:21 AM on February 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
Many Americans are only really exposed to unions in the context of jobs which are very non-differentiated so this is a common concern. You have noted that athletic unions are an exception you are aware of.
There are other areas of work where individual performance varies highly which are nonetheless unionised. Notably, the whole of the entertainment industry. Film and TV directors, writers, and actors are all unionised and their relative performance and earning potential varies very widely. They are few barriers to dismissing them off a project when they are not working out. In other words, it is perfectly possible to tailor what a union does and does not do based on the needs of the industry.
I imagine a tech industry union would do things like create a set of standards for how options, RSUs, etc. are awarded but *without* mandating the use of only one kind of incentive and definitely without setting the level of these awards.
A tech industry union might require "take home" interview problems to be paid.
A tech industry union might require overtime pay over a certain number of working hours... but might very well allow exceptions to that rule for employees with sufficient "skin in the game". Alternatively, members might prefer that the union does not get involved in this.
To look at what unions negotiated for people who worked on enormous assembly lines as interchangeable parts and say, "I don't want that", is perfectly reasonable but remember that the union negotiates within the reality of how the industry already works. If an employer treats its workers as a fully interchangeable assembly line worker then the union will structure its contract negotiations around that but it is the nature of the work and the decisions of the employer that cause the interchangeability, not a demand of the union.
posted by atrazine at 10:21 AM on February 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
Youtuber Jim Sterling (however you feel about the man) has a recent video about credits in video games and how companies have policies about only including people who worked on a game in its credits if they were actively employed by the company when the game was published, regardless of how much effort they may have put into the product. This directly effects people's employment opportunities on subsequent projects and is used as a tool for companies to push talented people through the "crunch time" of delivery or tie their hands in seeking other employment. Funny how movies don't have this problem with crediting people who worked on the production... Oh right, a requirement for credit is specifically negotiated by the unions representing entertainment industry workers. I think that the entertainment industry might provide the best model for a lot of these professionals who can't see themselves being part of a union (their egos can be stroked by equating them with high-paid entertainers!).
posted by SurfThug at 10:36 AM on February 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by SurfThug at 10:36 AM on February 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
I'm a developer at a tech company that went through an acquisition a few years ago. I'm compensated well; I like our company leadership; the company as a whole has a pretty healthy regard for work/life balance and my team in particular is great. My situation is undeniably cushy, but I would still jump at the chance for a union. When we went through that acquisition, my friends on the support team went from being salaried employees with the same dumb tech company perks as I had to being hourly employees without those perks because that was how the acquiring company's support team was handled, and there was nothing I as an individual could do about it. Individual salary negotiations are garbage (especially for people who aren't cis white men), and the degree to which developers are privileged above other roles when it comes to things like startup equity is unfair and infuriating. And as much as I like our company leadership right now, everything changes over time, and I would love to have a union if those changes start to trend for the worse.
posted by Vibrissa at 10:58 AM on February 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by Vibrissa at 10:58 AM on February 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
Unions and their members can look out for *all* the workers, including those who don't carry a card.
I don't know if there's a similar thing in the US, in Canadian law there's the Rand formula which effectively means that people who pay dues but aren't formally in the union are effectively granted the same rights and provisions as if they were. It's well established in Canada, but I have no idea if there's an equivalence in US law. Largely solves free rider problems.
posted by bonehead at 11:08 AM on February 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
I don't know if there's a similar thing in the US, in Canadian law there's the Rand formula which effectively means that people who pay dues but aren't formally in the union are effectively granted the same rights and provisions as if they were. It's well established in Canada, but I have no idea if there's an equivalence in US law. Largely solves free rider problems.
posted by bonehead at 11:08 AM on February 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
In the US that is determined by the state. For example, Minnesota requires non-members to pay Fair Share dues, however the supreme court did rule those unconstitutional but only for public sector employees. This article has a map of which states require fair share and which do not. As of 2018, 28 states did not require fair share dues.
posted by soelo at 12:50 PM on February 19, 2020
posted by soelo at 12:50 PM on February 19, 2020
I've heard saeclorum's arguments a bunch of times, and I definitely empathize -- I've worked with a lot of people, including at really big tech companies, who just. couldn't. do. the. job, and weren't ever going to get there, no matter how much help and mentoring they were offered.
I market myself as a senior developer, not as 10x energy drink leet ninja, but instead as someone who tries to help everyone on the team get to 1.01x of where they were yesterday. And I try to walk that marketing talk too, I have weekly one-on-ones with a couple of new grad devs in my org and they set the agenda. I tell everyone I work with -- developers, TPMs, customers, everyone -- that if they are stuck on something for more than five minutes, and they think I can sort them out, they are to interrupt me.
And yeah, based on that experience I agree with reventlov, there are definitely some people out there who will not benefit from my help for whatever reason, no matter how much energy I sink into them. It'll take me months before I write you off this way, but I am old and my time is getting more precious and I need to do stuff that'll actually make a difference somewhere.
I think the presence of these unteachables is actually a refutation against "but but it will elevate mediocrities!" argument against unionization. The mediocrities are already among us -- and if they can work the hustle right, they are prospering.
posted by Sauce Trough at 12:57 PM on February 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
I market myself as a senior developer, not as 10x energy drink leet ninja, but instead as someone who tries to help everyone on the team get to 1.01x of where they were yesterday. And I try to walk that marketing talk too, I have weekly one-on-ones with a couple of new grad devs in my org and they set the agenda. I tell everyone I work with -- developers, TPMs, customers, everyone -- that if they are stuck on something for more than five minutes, and they think I can sort them out, they are to interrupt me.
And yeah, based on that experience I agree with reventlov, there are definitely some people out there who will not benefit from my help for whatever reason, no matter how much energy I sink into them. It'll take me months before I write you off this way, but I am old and my time is getting more precious and I need to do stuff that'll actually make a difference somewhere.
I think the presence of these unteachables is actually a refutation against "but but it will elevate mediocrities!" argument against unionization. The mediocrities are already among us -- and if they can work the hustle right, they are prospering.
posted by Sauce Trough at 12:57 PM on February 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
and if they can work the hustle right, they are prospering.
Yeah. There are lots and of reasons that many software engineers wouldn't want a union, but the "we won't be able to fire anyone who deserves it!" argument isn't a valid one.
Terrible engineers at any decent company are already practically untouchable. Once you get big enough to have an actual HR department, no one is getting terminated just because they just don't do a good enough job. The threat of a wrongful termination suit is much stronger than any union protection could ever hope to be.
posted by sideshow at 3:23 PM on February 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
Yeah. There are lots and of reasons that many software engineers wouldn't want a union, but the "we won't be able to fire anyone who deserves it!" argument isn't a valid one.
Terrible engineers at any decent company are already practically untouchable. Once you get big enough to have an actual HR department, no one is getting terminated just because they just don't do a good enough job. The threat of a wrongful termination suit is much stronger than any union protection could ever hope to be.
posted by sideshow at 3:23 PM on February 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
In 25 years of software engineering I've seen more than enough layoffs, but only a very few times when a programmer was fired for cause. All of them were for egregious misbehavior like bringing guns to work or having a concealed but very prominent online identity as a man/boy love advocate, or having your image cache scraping screensaver flashing hardcore beaver shots when the VP of HR came in at 7AM.
I suspect all of these folks would've been fired in a union scenario, they crossed some pretty bright lines.
posted by Sauce Trough at 3:43 PM on February 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
I suspect all of these folks would've been fired in a union scenario, they crossed some pretty bright lines.
posted by Sauce Trough at 3:43 PM on February 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
My only experience as a member of a union was when I took a job with Verizon to do Mobile 411 for ATT Wireless. yeah. Let that sink in.
We were in the Verizon building, and we were not members of the CWA but of the IBEW. Our contract terms were already negotiated for us, and after 18 months my class would be laid off and not offered full time jobs. They kept bringing in new classes so the job would get done of course.
At one point because the office and system was so new we were really swamped and call times were like 10 seconds instead of 4.8 seconds. So they had actual land line operators come in to help, since they could be trained pretty quickly.
oh boy. They lasted like 2 weeks, most complaining to their union about what for us were day-to-day working conditions. Turns out that some of them were used to going to work for 6 hours and having sewing/puzzles etc to do because landline 411 was automated so much the computer got it right without a person interjecting. But the CWA made sure as long as a person showed up to work they kept that job.
So in my mind yes the unions are good, clearly our working conditions were bad, sure we were never going to be able to knit all day but the CWA folks knew what was up. What's bad is when you come into a position that's not going to be renegotiated for another 3 years, and you had no say in that contract terms.
time off
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 3:58 PM on February 19, 2020
We were in the Verizon building, and we were not members of the CWA but of the IBEW. Our contract terms were already negotiated for us, and after 18 months my class would be laid off and not offered full time jobs. They kept bringing in new classes so the job would get done of course.
At one point because the office and system was so new we were really swamped and call times were like 10 seconds instead of 4.8 seconds. So they had actual land line operators come in to help, since they could be trained pretty quickly.
oh boy. They lasted like 2 weeks, most complaining to their union about what for us were day-to-day working conditions. Turns out that some of them were used to going to work for 6 hours and having sewing/puzzles etc to do because landline 411 was automated so much the computer got it right without a person interjecting. But the CWA made sure as long as a person showed up to work they kept that job.
So in my mind yes the unions are good, clearly our working conditions were bad, sure we were never going to be able to knit all day but the CWA folks knew what was up. What's bad is when you come into a position that's not going to be renegotiated for another 3 years, and you had no say in that contract terms.
time off
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 3:58 PM on February 19, 2020
The only developer I've seen get actually fired for poor performance is, well, me. I have seen several people quit before the deadline on their Performance Improvement Plan, though, and I imagine that some of my coworkers quit without telling me about their PIPs.
And "performance improvement plan" is why I doubt unions would be much of a roadblock for firing people: I can't see a union -- especially one representing tech workers -- putting up much of a roadblock beyond "give warnings and clear feedback on what must improve and by when, and document the situation."
posted by reventlov at 6:51 PM on February 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
And "performance improvement plan" is why I doubt unions would be much of a roadblock for firing people: I can't see a union -- especially one representing tech workers -- putting up much of a roadblock beyond "give warnings and clear feedback on what must improve and by when, and document the situation."
posted by reventlov at 6:51 PM on February 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
The thing I'd be excited for a union to do is set minimums and then enforce contracts.
Like, you say you don't do crunch time and you'll give me a raise after 6 months absent documented failure to adapt? In a world where I'd expect to see you and my union rep in six months, that might actually mean something.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 9:42 PM on February 19, 2020
Like, you say you don't do crunch time and you'll give me a raise after 6 months absent documented failure to adapt? In a world where I'd expect to see you and my union rep in six months, that might actually mean something.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 9:42 PM on February 19, 2020
I can't see a union -- especially one representing tech workers -- putting up much of a roadblock beyond "give warnings and clear feedback on what must improve and by when, and document the situation."
You'd be amazed at how much of a roadblock this genuinely is. The union can make sure that managers are actually documenting issues, and not abusing PIPs.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:30 AM on February 20, 2020
You'd be amazed at how much of a roadblock this genuinely is. The union can make sure that managers are actually documenting issues, and not abusing PIPs.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:30 AM on February 20, 2020
I imagine a tech industry union would do things like create a set of standards for how options, RSUs, etc. are awarded but *without* mandating the use of only one kind of incentive and definitely without setting the level of these awards.
I'm a member of a construction trade union (in Canada but the operating principles can apply anywhere). Because "Construction" layoffs are common. Companies crew up for a job and then lay most people off at the end. This allows them to get rid of the people they don't want pretty easily. Also there is a three strikes system in place that allows managment to get rid of people who aren't obeying the rules.
But the union, much like how SAG works, negotiates and enforces stuff like minimum pay (companies are free to pay more and it's common for especially valued employees to get pay and perks above the contract minimums); overtime; pay bumps for supervisory positions and what counts as a supervisory position; extended health benefits which is paid by employers but handled by the hall so getting laid off doesn't end your benefits (it possible to have extended health benefits for up to four years after your last lay off depending on how much you have worked); pension/RRSP; wage increases during the duration of the contract; pay for living out, travel and other related expenses; a list of what tools are required to be supplied by the employee; scope of work; journeyman:apprentice ratios etc. etc. Our agreement is a paperback book of ways companies screw over trade workers and negotiated rules aimed at minimizing those occurrences.
There is absolutely no reason the same couldn't be applied to any professional worker. Especially because the contract is a minimum halo employees can still be compensated above what the run of the mill employee gets.
PS: One of the ways this works out to the benefit of the employees is valued employees are kept on doing busy work when work loads are low so that they aren't lost to other companies. You don't end up with zero-hour bullshit contracts.
posted by Mitheral at 7:57 AM on February 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
I'm a member of a construction trade union (in Canada but the operating principles can apply anywhere). Because "Construction" layoffs are common. Companies crew up for a job and then lay most people off at the end. This allows them to get rid of the people they don't want pretty easily. Also there is a three strikes system in place that allows managment to get rid of people who aren't obeying the rules.
But the union, much like how SAG works, negotiates and enforces stuff like minimum pay (companies are free to pay more and it's common for especially valued employees to get pay and perks above the contract minimums); overtime; pay bumps for supervisory positions and what counts as a supervisory position; extended health benefits which is paid by employers but handled by the hall so getting laid off doesn't end your benefits (it possible to have extended health benefits for up to four years after your last lay off depending on how much you have worked); pension/RRSP; wage increases during the duration of the contract; pay for living out, travel and other related expenses; a list of what tools are required to be supplied by the employee; scope of work; journeyman:apprentice ratios etc. etc. Our agreement is a paperback book of ways companies screw over trade workers and negotiated rules aimed at minimizing those occurrences.
There is absolutely no reason the same couldn't be applied to any professional worker. Especially because the contract is a minimum halo employees can still be compensated above what the run of the mill employee gets.
PS: One of the ways this works out to the benefit of the employees is valued employees are kept on doing busy work when work loads are low so that they aren't lost to other companies. You don't end up with zero-hour bullshit contracts.
posted by Mitheral at 7:57 AM on February 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
Any tech contractors who'd be interested in forming a solidarity union under the IWW umbrella? Maybe we should chat...
I was a contractor at Goliath Semiconductor Inc. before i was hired there full time and the majority of my fellow contractors led a nomadic life rotating between 3-4 companies in the area in 18 month stints with draconian rules enforced from the companies we worked at and half or better of our billable rate taken by the contracting companies for no tangible benefit to us. when i engaged in normal watercooler talk with my fellow contractors, every single time I brought up unionizing with rare exception, people were openly hostile to the very idea of a union. I always wondered what it would take to push people to get out of that thinking.
posted by Dr. Twist at 11:10 AM on February 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
I was a contractor at Goliath Semiconductor Inc. before i was hired there full time and the majority of my fellow contractors led a nomadic life rotating between 3-4 companies in the area in 18 month stints with draconian rules enforced from the companies we worked at and half or better of our billable rate taken by the contracting companies for no tangible benefit to us. when i engaged in normal watercooler talk with my fellow contractors, every single time I brought up unionizing with rare exception, people were openly hostile to the very idea of a union. I always wondered what it would take to push people to get out of that thinking.
posted by Dr. Twist at 11:10 AM on February 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
And in shameful unionization news, The Young Turks have refused to voluntarily recognize the union their workers are organizing under the IATSE.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:31 PM on February 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:31 PM on February 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
And Cenk Uygur forgets the first rule of finding oneself in a hole:
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:49 PM on February 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
“The reality is we’re in a precarious position,” Uygur said. “We’re in a digital media landscape where almost no one makes money or is sustainable.”Fuck you, Cenk. And I hope you get your ass kicked thoroughly come Election Day.
He added, “For a smaller digital media company, those are absolutely real considerations. It doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have a union. Everyone should know the full context ... If folks say they don’t believe we’re in a precarious position, OK. And that’s their decision to make.”
...In an interview with HuffPost, Uygur said he is a strong supporter of unions, especially at large corporations that aren’t sharing profits with their workers. But he said he worries a unionized workforce would bring new legal and bureaucratic costs that TYT can’t sustain.
Uygur told HuffPost he wants a secret-ballot election because a few employees told him after the meeting that they do not support a union ― “some, not all,” he said.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:49 PM on February 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
What part of a secret election scares unions or makes unions find it so offensive? Are you worried that the perceived value of the union only holds up when people's opinion are under scrutiny from their coworkers? What are you afraid of? Heck, voluntarily recognized unions have less protection by the NLRB, so the union should appreciate the chance for additional protection.
posted by saeculorum at 9:42 AM on February 25, 2020
posted by saeculorum at 9:42 AM on February 25, 2020
What part of a secret election scares unions or makes unions find it so offensive?
Because the workers have spoken with the card check. The demand for the election is made by employers to push the anti-union line harder.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:05 AM on February 25, 2020 [3 favorites]
Because the workers have spoken with the card check. The demand for the election is made by employers to push the anti-union line harder.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:05 AM on February 25, 2020 [3 favorites]
Furthermore, if you're a progressive who supports unions (as Uygur has presented himself as in his roles as media figure and political candidate), why wouldn't you eat your dog food and voluntarily recognize? It would be (as we saw with Josh Marshall and TalkingPointsMemo) putting one's money where their ideology is.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:09 AM on February 25, 2020
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:09 AM on February 25, 2020
I don't get why "I support unions" means "I have to unconditionally accept the result of a card check that was conducted using potentially coercive methods (intentionally or unintentionally)". Your interest in this seems more philosophical than practical, and seems to include a belief that union antagonism towards disinterested workers never occurs. This seems like a good opportunity for companies to "trust but verify" the actions of a union.
Put another way, I support democracy. I would not, however, elect an elected official based on a public assertion of support by 50%+1 of the population.
posted by saeculorum at 12:45 PM on February 25, 2020
Put another way, I support democracy. I would not, however, elect an elected official based on a public assertion of support by 50%+1 of the population.
posted by saeculorum at 12:45 PM on February 25, 2020
I don't get why "I support unions" means "I have to unconditionally accept the result of a card check that was conducted using potentially coercive methods (intentionally or unintentionally)".
Because if you're actively parroting anti-union rhetoric, you don't actually support unions.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:10 PM on February 25, 2020 [8 favorites]
Because if you're actively parroting anti-union rhetoric, you don't actually support unions.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:10 PM on February 25, 2020 [8 favorites]
It's clear from the article NoxAeternum linked that Cenk doesn't support unions: he urged employees not to unionize, said a union didn't belong at his company, and accused the unionization of being politically motivated. Not accepting card check is just the icing on the anti-union sundae.
posted by Mavri at 2:49 PM on February 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Mavri at 2:49 PM on February 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
50%+1 of the population
Does this happen with any regularity? My union won't even try to certify an employer unless they think at least 65% will vote to unionize. Any thing else is too volitile and you risk a pretty embarassing decertification.
posted by Mitheral at 6:56 PM on February 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
Does this happen with any regularity? My union won't even try to certify an employer unless they think at least 65% will vote to unionize. Any thing else is too volitile and you risk a pretty embarassing decertification.
posted by Mitheral at 6:56 PM on February 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
And in follow-up, it turns out that active union busting as a Democrat in California is how you get 3.94% of the vote.
Sunk Uygur.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:01 PM on March 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
Sunk Uygur.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:01 PM on March 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
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