The beef with "Beef"
April 23, 2023 1:33 AM Subscribe
Soleil Ho: We’re in Asian America’s peak media moment. But ‘Beef’ has poisoned the well
Earlier contexts: Twitter Took Down A Video Of “Beef” Actor David Choe Seemingly Describing Raping A Massage Therapist
So it behooves us all the more to pause and ask if separating this art from its artists is something that would truly benefit the “community” or something that would solely benefit Choe and his enablers, who cast him in a major production despite the highly public controversy over the podcast clip when it first came out almost a decade ago. They could have cast any of the many Asian American actors in that role but instead opted for someone whose entire media persona is based on a misogynist and racist reaction to the model minority myth.
I see it this way: To uncritically embrace “Beef” for what it gives to the Asian American community shows that we’re on board with rape culture and with misogyny, especially against Black women. To embrace it shows that we’re willing to let others pay the price for our feelings of validation and belonging.
Earlier contexts: Twitter Took Down A Video Of “Beef” Actor David Choe Seemingly Describing Raping A Massage Therapist
After a video of David Choe seemingly describing raping a woman went viral on Twitter last week, the Beef actor filed a copyright claim and got the podcast footage taken down over the weekend.Update: Steven Yeun, Ali Wong and ‘Beef’ Creator Say David Choe Has ‘Put in the Work’ Since ‘Fabricated’ Rape Story
Choe, a graffiti artist who is prominently featured in the popular series from Netflix and A24, faced online backlash after journalist Aura Bogado posted a video from a 2014 podcast in which he appeared to explicitly describe sexually assaulting a massage therapist.
The creator and stars of Netflix’s popular show “Beef” have responded to resurfaced criticism against cast member David Choe, who has recently come under fire for a 2014 podcast interview where he had joked about being a “successful rapist” during a massage.
On Friday, “Beef” creator Lee Sung Jin and executive producers and stars Steven Yeun and Ali Wong released a statement to Variety, calling Choe’s story “undeniably hurtful and extremely disturbing” but that he’s “put in the work to get the mental health support he needed.”
“The story David Choe fabricated nine years ago is undeniably hurtful and extremely disturbing. We do not condone this story in any way, and we understand why this has been so upsetting and triggering. We’re aware David has apologized in the past for making up this horrific story, and we’ve seen him put in the work to get the mental health support he needed over the last decade to better himself and learn from his mistakes,” they said.
oh this is going to be a shitshow, I can tell
It is a scenario that can be interpreted multiple different, equally valid ways, and people are going to get deeply, deeply mad that others are interpreting it differently.
posted by Merus at 2:47 AM on April 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
it's disingenuous to characterise his DMCA takedowns of removing the offending clips as 'put[ting] in the work'there is another reading here: that he reached for a legal takedown because he's deeply embarrassed and ashamed by the person he was nine years ago, and his sin was hoping a DMCA takedown would send them back into obscurity rather than following him around for the rest of his life.
It is a scenario that can be interpreted multiple different, equally valid ways, and people are going to get deeply, deeply mad that others are interpreting it differently.
posted by Merus at 2:47 AM on April 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
there is another reading here: that he reached for a legal takedown because he's deeply embarrassed and ashamed by the person he was nine years ago, and his sin was hoping a DMCA takedown would send them back into obscurity rather than following him around for the rest of his life.Besides this failing Avoiding Streisand Effects 102, it's what's ringing hollow for me when he and his friends try to claim this being congruent with his attempts at rehabilitation. I can find it plausible that Choe has regrets about that era of his life, but my skepticism is increased with actions like this (honestly even to the point that like some of the harshest critics, I wonder if he actually fabricated at all).
Owning up to your mistakes doesn't mean scrubbing them, it means having to live with it, living with people rightfully (and sometimes not-so-rightfully) condemning you. And you can't force folks to forgive you, even if you have 'put in the work' after all, rehabilitation has never been easy after all, especially when the crimes are more galling than usual. I don't think it's too late for Choe to escape widespread (or damn near there) condemnation from non-shitty folks, but these actions just strike me as sideshow_bob_stepping_on_rakes.mp4.
posted by Pachylad at 2:58 AM on April 23, 2023 [13 favorites]
there is another reading here: that he reached for a legal takedown because he's deeply embarrassed and ashamed by the person he was nine years ago, and his sin was hoping a DMCA takedown would send them back into obscurity rather than following him around for the rest of his life.
I'd be more inclined to believe that is it were in keeping with the rest of his actions, image, persona. Instead, his fame is built on awful misogyny. This isn't a one-off.
posted by Dysk at 3:23 AM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'd be more inclined to believe that is it were in keeping with the rest of his actions, image, persona. Instead, his fame is built on awful misogyny. This isn't a one-off.
posted by Dysk at 3:23 AM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think we look at him as if he was a white dude and imagine what we would be willing to forgive, and treat him like that. Based on the articles he doesn’t seem like a nice guy, but maybe he’s grown a lot; let’s hear him own it and work really hard to atone for his actions. I mean, even the name of his old podcast is just .. yucko.
posted by caviar2d2 at 5:00 AM on April 23, 2023
posted by caviar2d2 at 5:00 AM on April 23, 2023
I wouldn't forgive a white dude who told that story and was that unapologetic about it, and I don't think most people would. There are too many talented people in the world not getting enough work to keep giving multiple chances to terrible people.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:22 AM on April 23, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 5:22 AM on April 23, 2023 [21 favorites]
Yeah, I'm deeply disappointed with Yeun, Wong and Lee and I don't think it's their place to say he's 'put in the work'. The only person who can say that is the massage therapist. Honestly they're only getting their own hands dirty by getting involved in this mess.
posted by HypotheticalWoman at 6:09 AM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by HypotheticalWoman at 6:09 AM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Incredibly, I'm here to support Sideshow Bob. It's stepping on rakes, jeez.
posted by SPrintF at 6:58 AM on April 23, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 6:58 AM on April 23, 2023 [13 favorites]
This... this is one of the most tragically darkly comedic fuckups of a typo I've ever done.
posted by Pachylad at 7:00 AM on April 23, 2023 [33 favorites]
posted by Pachylad at 7:00 AM on April 23, 2023 [33 favorites]
his sin was hoping a DMCA takedown would send them back into obscurity rather than following him around for the rest of his life
That a person in his position in life would be that naive, especially given that this is not the first time he's come under fire for these same comments, is simply not plausible.
Dude is a Facebook (yes, really) millionaire in his 40s who's been working in "transgressive" media all his career, so please let's not treat him like some kid in his early 20s.
That said...hm. My thoughts on this one still need some sorting out. I know that I wouldn't want him as a friend, that's for sure.
posted by praemunire at 8:29 AM on April 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
That a person in his position in life would be that naive, especially given that this is not the first time he's come under fire for these same comments, is simply not plausible.
Dude is a Facebook (yes, really) millionaire in his 40s who's been working in "transgressive" media all his career, so please let's not treat him like some kid in his early 20s.
That said...hm. My thoughts on this one still need some sorting out. I know that I wouldn't want him as a friend, that's for sure.
posted by praemunire at 8:29 AM on April 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
I've been sort of aware of David Choe since his Giant Robot days documenting his incarceration in a Japanese prison for punching a security guard during one of his art shows.
There are so many threads to tangle out but I cannot do justice to all of them...so here's the main one I've been thinking a lot about:
A certain segment of (in)famous Asian American men feel really entitled to women's bodies, and use their eloquence with words/arts/etc to justify treating women, especially Asian American, but in addition, black women, poorly because they feel they are "owed" by the emasculation of Asian men in Western popular/mainstream culture, and it's a type of revenge for them. See also: Eddie Huang, Aziz Ansari.
Jenn of Reappropriate had some things to say that is worth reading about the whole thing back when it first blew up in 2014:
Honestly, what most disturbed me here was how David Choe’s story caters to a particular subset of the Asian American community: the highly misogynist counter-movement to the Asian American emasculation stereotype that emphasizes the objectification and sexual conquest of women to reinforce Asian American masculinity. It’s no coincidence that DVDASA’s panel is predominantly Asian American, or that Choe quips early in the segment about Asian American men being seen as non-threatening or not targets of sexual desire.
posted by toastyk at 8:46 AM on April 23, 2023 [14 favorites]
There are so many threads to tangle out but I cannot do justice to all of them...so here's the main one I've been thinking a lot about:
A certain segment of (in)famous Asian American men feel really entitled to women's bodies, and use their eloquence with words/arts/etc to justify treating women, especially Asian American, but in addition, black women, poorly because they feel they are "owed" by the emasculation of Asian men in Western popular/mainstream culture, and it's a type of revenge for them. See also: Eddie Huang, Aziz Ansari.
Jenn of Reappropriate had some things to say that is worth reading about the whole thing back when it first blew up in 2014:
Honestly, what most disturbed me here was how David Choe’s story caters to a particular subset of the Asian American community: the highly misogynist counter-movement to the Asian American emasculation stereotype that emphasizes the objectification and sexual conquest of women to reinforce Asian American masculinity. It’s no coincidence that DVDASA’s panel is predominantly Asian American, or that Choe quips early in the segment about Asian American men being seen as non-threatening or not targets of sexual desire.
posted by toastyk at 8:46 AM on April 23, 2023 [14 favorites]
A certain segment of (in)famous Asian American men feel really entitled to women's bodies, and use their eloquence with words/arts/etc to justify treating women, especially Asian American, but in addition, black women, poorly because they feel they are "owed" by the emasculation of Asian men in Western popular/mainstream culture, and it's a type of revenge for themThe r/aznidentity poster?
posted by Pachylad at 8:49 AM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
I hate to fall on the side on the side “hate the artist, love the art.” But Beef being great art is not canceled by David Choe being not a good person. And he was not the creator or star of the show. If there were multiple women accusing Choe abuse I think I’d feel differently than him describing something that is (unfortunately) a common trope in mainstream pornography. It does seem given the uproar that Choe is unlikely to get cast in much of anything moving forward.
posted by CostcoCultist at 8:50 AM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by CostcoCultist at 8:50 AM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
the highly misogynist counter-movement to the Asian American emasculation stereotype that emphasizes the objectification and sexual conquest of women to reinforce Asian American masculinity.
Absolutely, and absolutely it can be aimed at "safer" targets, such as black women.
At the same time, there is a tendency to treat creators of color as if they were incapable of narrating anything but their direct personal experience--no one thinks Johnny Cash shot a man in Reno just to watch him die, but let some black rapper talk about dealing drugs or shooting up a party, and he must have actually done those things. If Choe didn't actually do the acts described, then it's a tacky and horrible story he told nine years ago, and...I don't know. I myself am judging him personally pretty damn hard for it still, but I don't know if it warrants the end of his professional career. (Thinking about James Gunn here, who was originally fired by Disney for some several-year-old tasteless pedophilia jokes, but then no one thought he actually was a pedophile. My reaction at the time was that the jokes were disqualifying for, like, being a federal judge for at least two decades, but probably not all that relevant to his ability to direct films in a nonabusive way.)
On the third hand, he definitely strikes me as the kind of chickenshit who would backpedal and lie about whether the events actually happened when he got professional blowback.
posted by praemunire at 8:52 AM on April 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
Absolutely, and absolutely it can be aimed at "safer" targets, such as black women.
At the same time, there is a tendency to treat creators of color as if they were incapable of narrating anything but their direct personal experience--no one thinks Johnny Cash shot a man in Reno just to watch him die, but let some black rapper talk about dealing drugs or shooting up a party, and he must have actually done those things. If Choe didn't actually do the acts described, then it's a tacky and horrible story he told nine years ago, and...I don't know. I myself am judging him personally pretty damn hard for it still, but I don't know if it warrants the end of his professional career. (Thinking about James Gunn here, who was originally fired by Disney for some several-year-old tasteless pedophilia jokes, but then no one thought he actually was a pedophile. My reaction at the time was that the jokes were disqualifying for, like, being a federal judge for at least two decades, but probably not all that relevant to his ability to direct films in a nonabusive way.)
On the third hand, he definitely strikes me as the kind of chickenshit who would backpedal and lie about whether the events actually happened when he got professional blowback.
posted by praemunire at 8:52 AM on April 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
Choe is in like 7% of Beef. I'm sorry if he sucks, but I don't know that people who make TV shows are obligated to listen to hundreds of hours of podcasts before they cast anyone in a small role in something.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:59 AM on April 23, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:59 AM on April 23, 2023 [19 favorites]
I really like the show and as in many other cases, separating the art from the artist is confusing to me. I've heard a couple of longform recent interviews with Steven Yuen and he strikes me (as much as one can tell from these snapshots) as a person with values. The interview with Choe is creepy as hell and to post hoc characterize it as a 'joke'? that's super creepy too. When I read Yuen et al's release, I wondered what exactly are they talking about when they say Choe has 'done the work' since that creepy interview.
posted by bluesky43 at 9:01 AM on April 23, 2023
posted by bluesky43 at 9:01 AM on April 23, 2023
kittens for breakfast, Choe is also the guy who tried to scrub evidence of his sordid past of the net (thankfully the spectre of Streisand is always watching), and if you want to play the numbers game then at least 70% of the show's creative talents - Yuen, Wong, Lee - do not consider his behaviour in light of all of this suspect. I don't think it's unreasonable for Black women - from which I've seen are the loudest voices criticizing all this - to be uncomfortable with all this, at the very least.
posted by Pachylad at 9:10 AM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Pachylad at 9:10 AM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm not saying people shouldn't be uncomfortable with him, I'm just questioning how much responsibility the makers of this show had to research the life and works of a secondary actor before they made their show, and to what degree those people are obligated to discuss his past. How much investigation into a person's history are we expected to do before we put them on a TV show? I am not saying he should have been cast, I'm asking how much vetting really needed to happen before Choe or anybody was put on a TV show. What is the reasonable expectation of the due diligence that should have happened before he was allowed the awe-inspiring latitude to say some zingers on TV?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:20 AM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:20 AM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm asking how much vetting really needed to happen before Choe or anybody was put on a TV show
You know, if you just look at his Wikipedia article, you'll learn that these remarks were not discovered only this year by diligent sleuths listening to hundreds of hours of unremarkable podcast.
I admit that I feel ambivalent about what should be done given these facts, but it's weirding me out that people seem to be going out of their way to make characterizations of the situation that depend on ignoring the facts.
posted by praemunire at 9:25 AM on April 23, 2023 [19 favorites]
You know, if you just look at his Wikipedia article, you'll learn that these remarks were not discovered only this year by diligent sleuths listening to hundreds of hours of unremarkable podcast.
I admit that I feel ambivalent about what should be done given these facts, but it's weirding me out that people seem to be going out of their way to make characterizations of the situation that depend on ignoring the facts.
posted by praemunire at 9:25 AM on April 23, 2023 [19 favorites]
Kittens for breakfast: It sounds like this had been discussed online *before* he was cast. I also don't think it's just about due diligence before the fact (though it's not like Netflix doesn't have the resources to do exactly the sort of research you're describing), but also about the after-the-fact defense that the stars are making, based on nothing more than "work" he's done, which isn't necessarily in evidence.
Plus, it's maybe a touch reductive to reduce his presence to the "awe-inspiring latitude to say some zingers on TV".
posted by sagc at 9:27 AM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Plus, it's maybe a touch reductive to reduce his presence to the "awe-inspiring latitude to say some zingers on TV".
posted by sagc at 9:27 AM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
I dunno, that 7% role could have gone to a non-problematic, non-rich, just as, if not more talented Asian American actor who's not an asshole. There are plenty of them around, and as executive producers, Yeun, and Wong, could have given an up and coming talent a chance to shine in a prestigious show.
Disney even had reservations about him "getting cancelled". Even before this blew up, this was one of the first things that came up on a Google search for him. It's basic research.
posted by toastyk at 9:27 AM on April 23, 2023 [12 favorites]
Disney even had reservations about him "getting cancelled". Even before this blew up, this was one of the first things that came up on a Google search for him. It's basic research.
posted by toastyk at 9:27 AM on April 23, 2023 [12 favorites]
The crux of the issue for me at least is Choe sending the DMCA takedowns of the offending clips to those who shared them.
All defences I've seen in this thread so far don't seem to have focused on this issue, with the exception of Merus earlier, in which I've already highlighted my problems with their framing.
Regardless of whether you think the story was actually fabricated, merely an edgelord lark, whether he had put in sufficient time/work in having rehabilitated from past behaviour, I have not seen a single reasonably charitable take on those actions he took.
posted by Pachylad at 9:30 AM on April 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
All defences I've seen in this thread so far don't seem to have focused on this issue, with the exception of Merus earlier, in which I've already highlighted my problems with their framing.
Regardless of whether you think the story was actually fabricated, merely an edgelord lark, whether he had put in sufficient time/work in having rehabilitated from past behaviour, I have not seen a single reasonably charitable take on those actions he took.
posted by Pachylad at 9:30 AM on April 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
I mean, fair enough. I mean, I'm a comics nerd, and I was only vaguely aware that David Choe even existed before this month, and he's apparently a famous comic book artist. So I was willing to accept that maybe his life and misadventures were not in the fore front of everyone's mind. I may be mistaken!
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:30 AM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:30 AM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
like some of the harshest critics, I wonder if he actually fabricated at all
no one thinks Johnny Cash shot a man in Reno just to watch him die, but let some black rapper talk about dealing drugs or shooting up a party, and he must have actually done those things
For me the claim that it is pure fiction just doesn't make sense. Who tells tall tales in a podcast interview, how is that even a thing, and who would tell that story specifically? (I mean, celebrities tell bullshitty stories on talk shows, but they are literally never about anything close to that.)
Haven't watched Beef yet, might still do it (since by all accounts it is very entertaining), but I definitely feel like some people think I'm really stupid, and they are lying to my face for self-serving reasons.
posted by anhedonic at 9:35 AM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
no one thinks Johnny Cash shot a man in Reno just to watch him die, but let some black rapper talk about dealing drugs or shooting up a party, and he must have actually done those things
For me the claim that it is pure fiction just doesn't make sense. Who tells tall tales in a podcast interview, how is that even a thing, and who would tell that story specifically? (I mean, celebrities tell bullshitty stories on talk shows, but they are literally never about anything close to that.)
Haven't watched Beef yet, might still do it (since by all accounts it is very entertaining), but I definitely feel like some people think I'm really stupid, and they are lying to my face for self-serving reasons.
posted by anhedonic at 9:35 AM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think the takedown request answers the question of whether he’s really evolved since the podcast. If you own your previous behavior then you shouldn’t be trying to shut down the conversation. He willingly put that out in the world! It’s not like it’s leaked audio from a private conversation - he got behind a mic and willingly told that story for mass consumption.
I could see deleting it from your own site and such, but using takedown requests like that just says he’s hoping he can bury the problem and not take responsibility.
I really hope the story was fictional as he says, but I can’t really understand why a person would want to make that up.
posted by jzb at 9:41 AM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
I could see deleting it from your own site and such, but using takedown requests like that just says he’s hoping he can bury the problem and not take responsibility.
I really hope the story was fictional as he says, but I can’t really understand why a person would want to make that up.
posted by jzb at 9:41 AM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
To borrow the words from someone who IMO has 'put in the work' and didn't stray from confronting his past edgelord mistakes on 'who would be the type of person to be so graphic in what's ostensibly a fake, fucked up story':
For myself and many of my peers, we miscalculated. We thought the major battles over equality and inclusiveness had been won, and society would eventually express that, so we were not harming anything with contrarianism, shock, sarcasm or irony. If anything, we were trying to underscore the banality, the everyday nonchalance toward our common history with the atrocious, all while laboring under the tacit *mistaken* notion that things were getting better. I'm overdue for a conversation about my role in inspiring "edgelord" shit. Believe me, I've met my share of punishers at gigs and I sympathize with anybody who isn't me but still had to suffer them. - Steve Albiniposted by Pachylad at 9:48 AM on April 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
Obviously this guy is completely ucky, even if this was some fucked up fantasy only that he felt compelled to share (why?!) ages ago. Wasn't going to watch Beef before I heard this stuff because it sounded like unpleasant subject matter, certainly won't now.
I do wonder what the hell the people who made Beef should say, though. Like they're trying to sell their new product despite someone in it being awful, which apparently they didn't do due diligence about checking on (you'd think people would be better at this now?).. Are they honestly going to completely disown him? Cut him from the film/show/whatever it is entirely right now and do quickie reshoots of what he did in it, only with Tig Notaro? Is that doable at this point?
I don't think it's great that after a few days of thinking it over the response was "Yeah, we don't like what he did in the past either, but he's done some work," but when I think about it, what the hell could they say? Like i'd love to see a condemnation, but at this point, what the hell could they say to make it better, plus they got a product to sell.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:49 AM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
I do wonder what the hell the people who made Beef should say, though. Like they're trying to sell their new product despite someone in it being awful, which apparently they didn't do due diligence about checking on (you'd think people would be better at this now?).. Are they honestly going to completely disown him? Cut him from the film/show/whatever it is entirely right now and do quickie reshoots of what he did in it, only with Tig Notaro? Is that doable at this point?
I don't think it's great that after a few days of thinking it over the response was "Yeah, we don't like what he did in the past either, but he's done some work," but when I think about it, what the hell could they say? Like i'd love to see a condemnation, but at this point, what the hell could they say to make it better, plus they got a product to sell.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:49 AM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Like i'd love to see a condemnation, but at this point, what the hell could they say to make it better, plus they got a product to sell.
and it's excellent product, way better than most. I've only seen one episode, mind you. I'd never even heard of Beef until three days ago. Somebody recommended it. I started watching and (something that doesn't happen that often) it hooked me. Later, I did a quick google on "Beef TV series" and this all came to light.
Will I now watch episode two knowing what I do?
Probably. Because it is an excellent show (so far). And a whole bunch of people are involved beyond Mr. Choe (and his 7-percent screen time). I do think excellence (or lack thereof) is a factor in these discussions. I do think, when it comes to art, we're not dealing with political binaries (ie: was a bad person involved? if so, reprehensible art!). I do think we must consider the quality of a work before we reject it for reasons.
posted by philip-random at 10:24 AM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
and it's excellent product, way better than most. I've only seen one episode, mind you. I'd never even heard of Beef until three days ago. Somebody recommended it. I started watching and (something that doesn't happen that often) it hooked me. Later, I did a quick google on "Beef TV series" and this all came to light.
Will I now watch episode two knowing what I do?
Probably. Because it is an excellent show (so far). And a whole bunch of people are involved beyond Mr. Choe (and his 7-percent screen time). I do think excellence (or lack thereof) is a factor in these discussions. I do think, when it comes to art, we're not dealing with political binaries (ie: was a bad person involved? if so, reprehensible art!). I do think we must consider the quality of a work before we reject it for reasons.
posted by philip-random at 10:24 AM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
I feel like I don't have any way to assess his claim that it was just a fictional story, and further was a manifestation of his mental illness for which he has now received treatment, versus the possibility that he was describing actual events.
But, I do think that regardless, the use of the DCMA takedowns is at a minimum cheesy, and more so feels like an attempt to weasel out of confronting past bad behavior. It certainly doesn't make the problem go away.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:43 AM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
But, I do think that regardless, the use of the DCMA takedowns is at a minimum cheesy, and more so feels like an attempt to weasel out of confronting past bad behavior. It certainly doesn't make the problem go away.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:43 AM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
just as, if not more talented Asian American actor who's not an asshole
Good for him, good for his coworkers, good for everybody. Currently we effectively reward people for getting as close as possible to the unforgivable. If we were really into people who were maximally funny and not punching down, I would love to see the knock-on effects.
posted by clew at 10:57 AM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Good for him, good for his coworkers, good for everybody. Currently we effectively reward people for getting as close as possible to the unforgivable. If we were really into people who were maximally funny and not punching down, I would love to see the knock-on effects.
posted by clew at 10:57 AM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you own your previous behavior then you shouldn’t be trying to shut down the conversation.
I'm sorry but I've seen this sentiment a few times in this thread and it's BALONEY
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 12:06 PM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm sorry but I've seen this sentiment a few times in this thread and it's BALONEY
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 12:06 PM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm sorry but I've seen this sentiment a few times in this thread and it's BALONEY
Because....? Asserting that it's "baloney" doesn't really negate the idea.
He did a thing publicly. He was (presumably) proud of it at the time. It was known at the time that it would be put out for consumption. We're not talking about somebody leaking a private conversation or any other context a reasonable person might've expected privacy or limited audience.
Now he's trying to disappear the "evidence" by misusing DMCA takedowns so people can't evaluate what he did. How does that show ownership or growth? Trying to get it taken down doesn't unring the bell -- it only serves to try to stifle the conversation and let people evaluate for themselves what he did. That doesn't speak to any ownership or growth.
posted by jzb at 12:47 PM on April 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
Because....? Asserting that it's "baloney" doesn't really negate the idea.
He did a thing publicly. He was (presumably) proud of it at the time. It was known at the time that it would be put out for consumption. We're not talking about somebody leaking a private conversation or any other context a reasonable person might've expected privacy or limited audience.
Now he's trying to disappear the "evidence" by misusing DMCA takedowns so people can't evaluate what he did. How does that show ownership or growth? Trying to get it taken down doesn't unring the bell -- it only serves to try to stifle the conversation and let people evaluate for themselves what he did. That doesn't speak to any ownership or growth.
posted by jzb at 12:47 PM on April 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
He was (presumably) proud of it at the time.
"presumably"
posted by Wood at 1:23 PM on April 23, 2023
"presumably"
posted by Wood at 1:23 PM on April 23, 2023
Reading brief summaries of the 2014 incident can make it seem that Choe was, like, all alone in a studio whispering into a microphone, but it was an episode of the DVDASA ("Double Vag, Double Anal, Sensitive Artist") podcast called "Erection Quest" and he's telling the "Rose the massage therapist" tale to his co-host, adult film actress Asa Akira, and their guests on the show. From Variety 4/17/2023:
Choe tells a lengthy story involving numerous sexual acts. He ends the X-rated monologue by saying, “The thrill of possibly going to jail, that’s what achieved the erection quest.”
“Ew, you’re basically telling us that you’re a rapist now, and that the only way to get your dick really hard is rape,” Akira says, to which Choe retorts, “Yeah,” before answering the other guests’ questions about Rose’s appearance.
“What the fuck is wrong with you guys?” Akira asks. “Who cares what she looks like? Dave is telling us he’s a rapist.”
“A successful rapist,” he jokes.
2014 XOJane coverage: After the massage, he asks "Rose" why she wouldn’t have sex with him and she tells him she has too big of a crush on him and is afraid she might fall in love. Everyone, including Choe, seems to chalk the incident up to Choe trusting his "instincts" that despite giving every indication that she doesn't want to be sexual with him, the girl actually likes him. And "I was right," he says, which is why he refers to himself, again jokingly, as a "successful rapist."
In the end, David says that the girl asks him if he'd like to go out sometime and he says yes and gives her a fake number. The podcast members then have a discussion about "rapey" behavior vs. "rape," which concludes with David saying, "I just want to make it clear that I admit that that's rapey behavior, but I am not a rapist."
For more context on his career, and more rape jokes, a 2010 ION interview conducted via email, after Choe had work hanging in the White House.
Current Deadline, IndieWire, Vice articles -- from the latter: "In 2017, Choe was commissioned by Goldman Properties to paint a large mural on a wall in Manhattan’s Lower East Side neighborhood. An anti-rape protest and performance art piece titled “NO MEANS NO” responded to the mural, in response to his 2014 comments on the podcast." (Artnet, June 16, 2017)
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:49 PM on April 23, 2023 [12 favorites]
Choe tells a lengthy story involving numerous sexual acts. He ends the X-rated monologue by saying, “The thrill of possibly going to jail, that’s what achieved the erection quest.”
“Ew, you’re basically telling us that you’re a rapist now, and that the only way to get your dick really hard is rape,” Akira says, to which Choe retorts, “Yeah,” before answering the other guests’ questions about Rose’s appearance.
“What the fuck is wrong with you guys?” Akira asks. “Who cares what she looks like? Dave is telling us he’s a rapist.”
“A successful rapist,” he jokes.
2014 XOJane coverage: After the massage, he asks "Rose" why she wouldn’t have sex with him and she tells him she has too big of a crush on him and is afraid she might fall in love. Everyone, including Choe, seems to chalk the incident up to Choe trusting his "instincts" that despite giving every indication that she doesn't want to be sexual with him, the girl actually likes him. And "I was right," he says, which is why he refers to himself, again jokingly, as a "successful rapist."
In the end, David says that the girl asks him if he'd like to go out sometime and he says yes and gives her a fake number. The podcast members then have a discussion about "rapey" behavior vs. "rape," which concludes with David saying, "I just want to make it clear that I admit that that's rapey behavior, but I am not a rapist."
For more context on his career, and more rape jokes, a 2010 ION interview conducted via email, after Choe had work hanging in the White House.
Current Deadline, IndieWire, Vice articles -- from the latter: "In 2017, Choe was commissioned by Goldman Properties to paint a large mural on a wall in Manhattan’s Lower East Side neighborhood. An anti-rape protest and performance art piece titled “NO MEANS NO” responded to the mural, in response to his 2014 comments on the podcast." (Artnet, June 16, 2017)
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:49 PM on April 23, 2023 [12 favorites]
Merus: multiple different, equally valid ways
I don't believe that's right or helpful. It sets an example and people act following that example and arrive at harmful outcomes. Consequences exist, consequences happen and it's unfair to dump preventable bad outcomes on people who can't protect themselves or prevent this visited upon them.
posted by k3ninho at 2:35 PM on April 23, 2023
I don't believe that's right or helpful. It sets an example and people act following that example and arrive at harmful outcomes. Consequences exist, consequences happen and it's unfair to dump preventable bad outcomes on people who can't protect themselves or prevent this visited upon them.
posted by k3ninho at 2:35 PM on April 23, 2023
The fact that folks are so focused on what it would take for him to be redeemed for either the possible rape of a black woman or the racist expression of a wish fulfillment scenario demonstrates why black women are so unprotected in this world. Fuck Choe. Fuck this show. Fuck these slimey, cowardly assholes that victimize black women for their own profit.
posted by anansi at 4:35 PM on April 23, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by anansi at 4:35 PM on April 23, 2023 [16 favorites]
I will not be watching the show and there is no explanation of this person's behavior that will convince me that my entertainment is more important than the protection of marginalized people.
The bar is on the floor, here.
posted by sibboleth at 4:54 PM on April 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
The bar is on the floor, here.
posted by sibboleth at 4:54 PM on April 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
If there were multiple women accusing Choe abuse I think I’d feel differently
of course you would. what's one single woman even worth
the first one's always free, that's the only rule of sexual assault that everyone believes in.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:08 PM on April 23, 2023 [16 favorites]
of course you would. what's one single woman even worth
the first one's always free, that's the only rule of sexual assault that everyone believes in.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:08 PM on April 23, 2023 [16 favorites]
My feelings are that Ali Wong has been in comedy and successful for awhile. But she’s had to work that career in a field saturated with dudes who try to out-douche each other. I’ve hung around in some comedy spaces and it’s part of that world to swim in the sewer and act cool about the antics of total dirtbags. Clearly, Choe is funny and known to some people. I don’t know Wong’s history or relationship with him but I think I do recall seeing she referred to him as “a friend.” I wanted to watch the show before I heard about this. I started watching after I heard about it and I’ll keep watching it. He is not a major character. In fact, I wouldn’t call him a “star.” If he is/was being billed as a star then someone thought he brought something necessary to the show which is deeply unfortunate. Because Wong is the star.
The anecdote about his rape fantasy is truly disgusting and disturbing and some kind of criminal inquiry likely should have been done. But I’m impressed people have called him out for it and right to his face. What a dirtbag thinking a porn star would find his story so funny. He got called out for it then, our society at large gave him a pass for it and then he shockingly was able to remove evidence? Like, let’s talk about that. I didn’t even think that was possible. You can get a video removed from twitter?! Who is this guy?
posted by amanda at 9:07 PM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
The anecdote about his rape fantasy is truly disgusting and disturbing and some kind of criminal inquiry likely should have been done. But I’m impressed people have called him out for it and right to his face. What a dirtbag thinking a porn star would find his story so funny. He got called out for it then, our society at large gave him a pass for it and then he shockingly was able to remove evidence? Like, let’s talk about that. I didn’t even think that was possible. You can get a video removed from twitter?! Who is this guy?
posted by amanda at 9:07 PM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
"Choe chose to receive company stock in lieu of cash payment for the original Facebook murals. His shares were valued at approximately $200 million on the eve of Facebook's 2012 IPO."
As noted in the FPP, Choe's "entire media persona is based on a misogynist and racist reaction to the model minority myth." There are always segments in his longtime friend Ali Wong's standup routines that make me wince, fwiw. But I'm not part of their core audience, dealing with that myth every day, and Choe's disclosed his mental health issues.
What I am is a former massage therapy student. I did have a clinic client touch me inappropriately, flash me, and kiss me. (I did not ask for a phone number -- as Choe said his therapist did -- nor did I go on to a career in that field.) I'm a real person, not a possibly-fictitious character in a disgusting anecdote delivered on a deliberately provocative podcast nine years ago as the lead-in to a bull session about consent.
I hope "Rose" doesn't exist.
I hope she's not a real person with an out-of-court settlement and an NDA.
(I hope the podcast performance is the worst thing Choe's ever done.)
(I'd hate to be known, and cyclically judged, for the worst thing I've ever done.)
I think I'm angry that a Facebook multi-millionaire artist with this schtick and history was hired, instead of a great, unknown AA actor in need of a break.
I think I'm angry that I've had to think about rape culture more than usual this week.
My client was not named Costner or Gore or Weinstein or Travolta or Wynn or Cosby or Spacey or Lee or Watson...
(My client was not the worst thing that ever happened to me.)
I am so fucking uncomfortable, I can't even tell you, and I'm out here on the periphery. I'm envious that it's so cut-and-dried for others.
If Choe was cast to start some sort of national conversation, because, I don't know, Ezra Klein still has a career, then good going, show.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:05 PM on April 23, 2023 [13 favorites]
As noted in the FPP, Choe's "entire media persona is based on a misogynist and racist reaction to the model minority myth." There are always segments in his longtime friend Ali Wong's standup routines that make me wince, fwiw. But I'm not part of their core audience, dealing with that myth every day, and Choe's disclosed his mental health issues.
What I am is a former massage therapy student. I did have a clinic client touch me inappropriately, flash me, and kiss me. (I did not ask for a phone number -- as Choe said his therapist did -- nor did I go on to a career in that field.) I'm a real person, not a possibly-fictitious character in a disgusting anecdote delivered on a deliberately provocative podcast nine years ago as the lead-in to a bull session about consent.
I hope "Rose" doesn't exist.
I hope she's not a real person with an out-of-court settlement and an NDA.
(I hope the podcast performance is the worst thing Choe's ever done.)
(I'd hate to be known, and cyclically judged, for the worst thing I've ever done.)
I think I'm angry that a Facebook multi-millionaire artist with this schtick and history was hired, instead of a great, unknown AA actor in need of a break.
I think I'm angry that I've had to think about rape culture more than usual this week.
My client was not named Costner or Gore or Weinstein or Travolta or Wynn or Cosby or Spacey or Lee or Watson...
(My client was not the worst thing that ever happened to me.)
I am so fucking uncomfortable, I can't even tell you, and I'm out here on the periphery. I'm envious that it's so cut-and-dried for others.
If Choe was cast to start some sort of national conversation, because, I don't know, Ezra Klein still has a career, then good going, show.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:05 PM on April 23, 2023 [13 favorites]
I hope "Rose" doesn't exist.
I hope she's not a real person with an out-of-court settlement and an NDA.
Yeah, let me be clear, I don't personally give a shit about Choe (to the extent I've been aware of him, he's always seemed like a douchelord to me), and I've never seen Beef, and Ali Wong's work that I've seen has given me weird vibes. I hope it's a fictional anecdote because then that means some woman didn't have to go through such a horrible experience. One of my very closest friends is a registered massage therapist, old enough now that she doesn't get too much acting out from the clientele, but the thought of someone doing anything like that to her turns my stomach and makes me want to punch people.
posted by praemunire at 10:38 PM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
I hope she's not a real person with an out-of-court settlement and an NDA.
Yeah, let me be clear, I don't personally give a shit about Choe (to the extent I've been aware of him, he's always seemed like a douchelord to me), and I've never seen Beef, and Ali Wong's work that I've seen has given me weird vibes. I hope it's a fictional anecdote because then that means some woman didn't have to go through such a horrible experience. One of my very closest friends is a registered massage therapist, old enough now that she doesn't get too much acting out from the clientele, but the thought of someone doing anything like that to her turns my stomach and makes me want to punch people.
posted by praemunire at 10:38 PM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
If a man tells a joke about how he raped someone, then he either did or wishes he did.
It's pretty fucking amazing that not only when a woman accuses a man of rape everyone is all "maybe he's innocent", but when the rapist himself says he raped someone everyone is all "maybe he's innocent".
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:45 AM on April 24, 2023 [12 favorites]
It's pretty fucking amazing that not only when a woman accuses a man of rape everyone is all "maybe he's innocent", but when the rapist himself says he raped someone everyone is all "maybe he's innocent".
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:45 AM on April 24, 2023 [12 favorites]
He is not a major character. In fact, I wouldn’t call him a “star.” If he is/was being billed as a star then someone thought he brought something necessary to the show which is deeply unfortunate. Because Wong is the star.
Given his wealth, he might be one of the show's early backers.
In the picture of Choe in the linked Chronicle article the caption says he plays "Isaac", and he's wearing a sweatshirt saying "Chosen Ones".
Are we meant to conclude that he's Jewish, or of Jewish descent?
posted by jamjam at 3:46 AM on April 24, 2023
Given his wealth, he might be one of the show's early backers.
In the picture of Choe in the linked Chronicle article the caption says he plays "Isaac", and he's wearing a sweatshirt saying "Chosen Ones".
Are we meant to conclude that he's Jewish, or of Jewish descent?
posted by jamjam at 3:46 AM on April 24, 2023
Whoa, they hired a guy who's kind of a dirtbag to play a guy who's a dirtbag? Stop the presses. The show is very good, and funny as hell, and Isaac is a nearly-irredeemable* moron whose dirtbagitude leads directly to a horrible comeuppance, so I have to wonder whether the people in charge of the show hired him for just that reason.
* He gets a tiny bit of cred for the "full hug" thing.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 5:08 AM on April 24, 2023
* He gets a tiny bit of cred for the "full hug" thing.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 5:08 AM on April 24, 2023
You're not supposed to hire an actor based on what they are in real life. It's called acting?
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:19 AM on April 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:19 AM on April 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
It's pretty fucking amazing that not only when a woman accuses a man of rape everyone is all "maybe he's innocent", but when the rapist himself says he raped someone everyone is all "maybe he's innocent".
Lolita is written in the first person.
Again, I really don't know the truth here. If "Rose" came forward, I would be ready to believe her on general principle, and even more so given his story. It's a fucking disgusting story to tell anyway. But I do not like it that in our society only certain kinds of people get to maintain distance between a narrative persona and real life.
posted by praemunire at 7:14 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Lolita is written in the first person.
Again, I really don't know the truth here. If "Rose" came forward, I would be ready to believe her on general principle, and even more so given his story. It's a fucking disgusting story to tell anyway. But I do not like it that in our society only certain kinds of people get to maintain distance between a narrative persona and real life.
posted by praemunire at 7:14 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
I watched the first episode of Beef and found it weird and off-putting, not because of Choe (who was only on screen for about 2 minutes). Does it get any better?
posted by greatalleycat at 7:51 AM on April 24, 2023
posted by greatalleycat at 7:51 AM on April 24, 2023
I watched the first episode of Beef and found it weird and off-putting, not because of Choe (who was only on screen for about 2 minutes). Does it get any better?
I mean...if you found it weird and offputting...you don't have to continue. I'm finding it kind of fascinating and brilliant and very layered but I haven't finished it and I'm curious to see where it is going to land. Choe adds nothing to the layering so far that I can see. In fact, if he was a backer or well-placed or even made it seem like he was well-placed enough to get included in this project (power-broker-adjacent should be a recognized job title) then that makes a lot of sense. I also have greatly enjoyed some dirtbag comedians over my lifetime (Louis C.K., you f*cking piece of sh*t) and Wong fits right in there but better...for me...because I'm tired of dudes. And I'm angry that rapey-dude would be well-placed and influential enough to get in her show and f*ck things up. But he didn't get "cancelled" hard enough when he made those comments. Our culture gave him a pass.
Also, most of the white, male, powerbrokers are dirtbags. And I feel like there's something to the people they cultivate who aren't white males but are also dirtbags. I think they use them as their fall guys to do even dirtbaggery stuff and push them to go further and reward them for outrageous behavior (by lending influence, power, etc.) because they know that if there are any consequences, those guys go down and their own white, male power is unsullied completely. And this goes for Wong, too. I feel like the odds of her going down for this are way higher than for Choe and I bristle at that. Even while feeling like of course she bears some blame but even if you look like you have all the power...you likely do not if you are a woman and doubly, triply so, a woman of color.
posted by amanda at 8:01 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
I mean...if you found it weird and offputting...you don't have to continue. I'm finding it kind of fascinating and brilliant and very layered but I haven't finished it and I'm curious to see where it is going to land. Choe adds nothing to the layering so far that I can see. In fact, if he was a backer or well-placed or even made it seem like he was well-placed enough to get included in this project (power-broker-adjacent should be a recognized job title) then that makes a lot of sense. I also have greatly enjoyed some dirtbag comedians over my lifetime (Louis C.K., you f*cking piece of sh*t) and Wong fits right in there but better...for me...because I'm tired of dudes. And I'm angry that rapey-dude would be well-placed and influential enough to get in her show and f*ck things up. But he didn't get "cancelled" hard enough when he made those comments. Our culture gave him a pass.
Also, most of the white, male, powerbrokers are dirtbags. And I feel like there's something to the people they cultivate who aren't white males but are also dirtbags. I think they use them as their fall guys to do even dirtbaggery stuff and push them to go further and reward them for outrageous behavior (by lending influence, power, etc.) because they know that if there are any consequences, those guys go down and their own white, male power is unsullied completely. And this goes for Wong, too. I feel like the odds of her going down for this are way higher than for Choe and I bristle at that. Even while feeling like of course she bears some blame but even if you look like you have all the power...you likely do not if you are a woman and doubly, triply so, a woman of color.
posted by amanda at 8:01 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Lolita is written in the first person.s
I don't know if this is a joke or not but.... Speak, Memory was Nabokov's autobiography, Lolita was a novel.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:49 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't know if this is a joke or not but.... Speak, Memory was Nabokov's autobiography, Lolita was a novel.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:49 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Lolita was a novel
Yes. You understand that to be a work of fiction, yes? Does it really seem so hard to believe that "edgy" comics/artists/WTFever you want to call Choe don't actually do some of the things that they claim in their bits to have done for humor/shock/WTFever?
they use them as their fall guys to do even dirtbaggery stuff and push them to go further and reward them for outrageous behavior (by lending influence, power, etc.) because they know that if there are any consequences, those guys go down and their own white, male power is unsullied completely. And this goes for Wong, too. I feel like the odds of her going down for this are way higher than for Choe and I bristle at that.
100% this...which doesn't mean the dirtbaggery is acceptable, but it does make for a very depressing dynamic.
posted by praemunire at 8:59 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yes. You understand that to be a work of fiction, yes? Does it really seem so hard to believe that "edgy" comics/artists/WTFever you want to call Choe don't actually do some of the things that they claim in their bits to have done for humor/shock/WTFever?
they use them as their fall guys to do even dirtbaggery stuff and push them to go further and reward them for outrageous behavior (by lending influence, power, etc.) because they know that if there are any consequences, those guys go down and their own white, male power is unsullied completely. And this goes for Wong, too. I feel like the odds of her going down for this are way higher than for Choe and I bristle at that.
100% this...which doesn't mean the dirtbaggery is acceptable, but it does make for a very depressing dynamic.
posted by praemunire at 8:59 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
In the picture of Choe in the linked Chronicle article the caption says he plays "Isaac", and he's wearing a sweatshirt saying "Chosen Ones".
Are we meant to conclude that he's Jewish, or of Jewish descent?
no.
"Chosen" (also: "Chōsen", at least under the Japanese Occupation) is romanization of 조선, a former name of Korea (corresponding to the Yi dyansty 1392-1910) and more commonly seen today as "Joseon" using the South Korean Revised Romanization; in North Korea, they tend to use modified McCune-Reischauer, so it's seen as Chosŏn.
it does lend itself to many a korean/jewish pun, however
---
in any case, toastyk's comment here points to the root of it. a lot of asian men feel emasculated, and instead of taking that and dismantling the patriarchal system, they lean heavily into toxic masculinity, pulling in bits of the home culture with western ideals
this is why they pat themselves on the back, half jokingly, when they date/sleep with a white woman, but still feel entitled to a form of ownership and castigate asian women who date outside of racial/ethnic boundaries
indeed, there's a podcast that has david choe saying steven yeun is a kind of civil rights hero because his character in walking dead slept with a white girl, embedded in a bunch of other misogynistic tripe, if you want to understand the kind of fuckability politics those kinds of asian men espouse.
fabricated or not, whether he's done the work or not, i don't give a shit. people don't have to accept his apologies or his excuses (something about mental health), let alone support his future work.
like. is it not telling that the one woman on that infamous podcast, asa akira, called him out on how fucked up the "story" was at the time? back in the days when there was more discussion of rape culture, and how rape jokes and stories like that basically helped (and continue to) give the impression to dudes that women's consent is optional?
---
as far as the show being offputting, well, yeah. i've only seen the first episode and probably won't be watching the rest, but it's a very specific kind of first-generation immigrant asian despair that infuses the whole show: the one who strove and succeeded and still feels empty and on the edge of collapse, and the one who strove and failed and is desperate. neither of the characters knows how to deal with those feelings, given how restrictive and limited their likely emotional upbringing was, and so, despair. rage.
posted by i used to be someone else at 9:08 AM on April 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
Are we meant to conclude that he's Jewish, or of Jewish descent?
no.
"Chosen" (also: "Chōsen", at least under the Japanese Occupation) is romanization of 조선, a former name of Korea (corresponding to the Yi dyansty 1392-1910) and more commonly seen today as "Joseon" using the South Korean Revised Romanization; in North Korea, they tend to use modified McCune-Reischauer, so it's seen as Chosŏn.
it does lend itself to many a korean/jewish pun, however
---
in any case, toastyk's comment here points to the root of it. a lot of asian men feel emasculated, and instead of taking that and dismantling the patriarchal system, they lean heavily into toxic masculinity, pulling in bits of the home culture with western ideals
this is why they pat themselves on the back, half jokingly, when they date/sleep with a white woman, but still feel entitled to a form of ownership and castigate asian women who date outside of racial/ethnic boundaries
indeed, there's a podcast that has david choe saying steven yeun is a kind of civil rights hero because his character in walking dead slept with a white girl, embedded in a bunch of other misogynistic tripe, if you want to understand the kind of fuckability politics those kinds of asian men espouse.
fabricated or not, whether he's done the work or not, i don't give a shit. people don't have to accept his apologies or his excuses (something about mental health), let alone support his future work.
like. is it not telling that the one woman on that infamous podcast, asa akira, called him out on how fucked up the "story" was at the time? back in the days when there was more discussion of rape culture, and how rape jokes and stories like that basically helped (and continue to) give the impression to dudes that women's consent is optional?
---
as far as the show being offputting, well, yeah. i've only seen the first episode and probably won't be watching the rest, but it's a very specific kind of first-generation immigrant asian despair that infuses the whole show: the one who strove and succeeded and still feels empty and on the edge of collapse, and the one who strove and failed and is desperate. neither of the characters knows how to deal with those feelings, given how restrictive and limited their likely emotional upbringing was, and so, despair. rage.
posted by i used to be someone else at 9:08 AM on April 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
“Lolita is written in the first person.”
That's a breathtaking example of boneheaded equivocation. A novel is fiction, people know it's fiction, the last time I checked the narrator was named "Humbert Humbert" and not "Vladimir Nabokov".
A much more appropriate and interesting comparison you might have made would have been to someone like Andy Kaufman, though it might be relevant that I'm pretty sure being a rapist wasn't part of his persona.
Even then, at this point in our history it's well-established that "edgy" artistic public personas centered on bigotry are a) more often than not expressions of the artist's own views in a disingenuously deniable fashion, and b) regardless of intent, do much more harm than good.
By the way, I watched all of Beef before this blew up, liked and respected the show quite a bit, and am somewhat agnostic on the ethics of boycotting the show or whatever. But there's no valid defense of Choe.
On preview:
“like. is it not telling that the one woman on that infamous podcast, asa akira, called him out on how fucked up the 'story' was at the time? back in the days when there was more discussion of rape culture, and how rape jokes and stories like that basically helped (and continue to) give the impression to dudes that women's consent is optional?”
Right.
praemunire, don't die on the hill of your defense of Choe, that would just be sad.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 9:18 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
That's a breathtaking example of boneheaded equivocation. A novel is fiction, people know it's fiction, the last time I checked the narrator was named "Humbert Humbert" and not "Vladimir Nabokov".
A much more appropriate and interesting comparison you might have made would have been to someone like Andy Kaufman, though it might be relevant that I'm pretty sure being a rapist wasn't part of his persona.
Even then, at this point in our history it's well-established that "edgy" artistic public personas centered on bigotry are a) more often than not expressions of the artist's own views in a disingenuously deniable fashion, and b) regardless of intent, do much more harm than good.
By the way, I watched all of Beef before this blew up, liked and respected the show quite a bit, and am somewhat agnostic on the ethics of boycotting the show or whatever. But there's no valid defense of Choe.
On preview:
“like. is it not telling that the one woman on that infamous podcast, asa akira, called him out on how fucked up the 'story' was at the time? back in the days when there was more discussion of rape culture, and how rape jokes and stories like that basically helped (and continue to) give the impression to dudes that women's consent is optional?”
Right.
praemunire, don't die on the hill of your defense of Choe, that would just be sad.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 9:18 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Does it really seem so hard to believe that "edgy" comics/artists/WTFever you want to call Choe don't actually do some of the things that they claim in their bits to have done for humor/shock/WTFever?
Answer me this: did Choe tell this story as part of a work of fiction? Did he play a character in a work of fiction and say those things? No, he did not. He doesn't get the benefit of the doubt.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:19 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Answer me this: did Choe tell this story as part of a work of fiction? Did he play a character in a work of fiction and say those things? No, he did not. He doesn't get the benefit of the doubt.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:19 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
That's a breathtaking example of boneheaded equivocation.
I'm sorry if the comparison disconcerts you, but are you guys really going around thinking that every "first person" bit a comic/actor/monologist does is a true story? Fiction comes in more than one form, especially nowadays. (And bullshit stories about alleged "sexual conquests" aren't even an invention of the modern era.) It seems like the incredibly offensive and stomach-churning nature of the narrative in question is causing you to reflexively collapse Choe-narrator and Choe-the-person, and I hate that I am having to articulate this principle in the context of (a) such an asshole and (b) such a godawful story, but that kind of narrator-person collapse is the basis of evangelical literary criticism and it's a terrible idea.
If it's a true story, he committed a crime, fuck him, ideally he would go to jail, he should never work again.
I have zero interest in defending Choe; I'm concerned about a principle that has much broader application in the present political climate and, importantly, it only applies if this story is fiction. (I also think the racial politics here are a huge quagmire, as has already been discussed.)
posted by praemunire at 10:11 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm sorry if the comparison disconcerts you, but are you guys really going around thinking that every "first person" bit a comic/actor/monologist does is a true story? Fiction comes in more than one form, especially nowadays. (And bullshit stories about alleged "sexual conquests" aren't even an invention of the modern era.) It seems like the incredibly offensive and stomach-churning nature of the narrative in question is causing you to reflexively collapse Choe-narrator and Choe-the-person, and I hate that I am having to articulate this principle in the context of (a) such an asshole and (b) such a godawful story, but that kind of narrator-person collapse is the basis of evangelical literary criticism and it's a terrible idea.
If it's a true story, he committed a crime, fuck him, ideally he would go to jail, he should never work again.
I have zero interest in defending Choe; I'm concerned about a principle that has much broader application in the present political climate and, importantly, it only applies if this story is fiction. (I also think the racial politics here are a huge quagmire, as has already been discussed.)
posted by praemunire at 10:11 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
did Choe tell this story as part of a work of fiction? Did he play a character in a work of fiction and say those things?
Just for the record, he literally said he made up this story. This is not some weird random farfetched explanation I came up with for him.
posted by praemunire at 10:12 AM on April 24, 2023
Just for the record, he literally said he made up this story. This is not some weird random farfetched explanation I came up with for him.
posted by praemunire at 10:12 AM on April 24, 2023
When someone tells an autobiographical story, in a context where it is assumed to be true, and then much later says "oh I made it up" when it becomes a problem, that is quite different to collapsing narrator and artist in general. That is a situation where someone presents something as true, has plenty of opportunity to walk it back and doesn't, it is entirely in keeping with their wider personality and actions at that time, and only later do they effectively say "it was just a joke lol" when it blows up. It doesn't matter how many shades of grey your palette has, this is pretty damn black and white.
posted by Dysk at 10:31 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 10:31 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Did he said he made up the story when he said it?
Good to know that anyone can say anything they want as long as they are a 'monologist' and they'll have defenders say, "what are you a proponent of the basis of evangelical literary criticism"?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:32 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Good to know that anyone can say anything they want as long as they are a 'monologist' and they'll have defenders say, "what are you a proponent of the basis of evangelical literary criticism"?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:32 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
k
let's say he made up a graphic story about raping a masseuse as part of some edgelord persona and that behind that mask he's just a gentle cuddly bunny
he still told the story. people are still within their rights to drop whatever he's involved with.
like, ffs, i loved that anthony bourdain parts unknown sizzler episode in k-town, la, and now i'm pretty much gonna just forget about it because even if choe made up the story the whole dirtbag persona doesn't fit the vibe i want out of the media i watch
ain't even that deep or about some kind of literary criticism. dude gives me a gross vibe, won't watch. i dunno if jeff dunham is terrible but i don't like a dude that jams his hands up another without consent and then speaks for them, so i don't watch him.
posted by i used to be someone else at 11:30 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
let's say he made up a graphic story about raping a masseuse as part of some edgelord persona and that behind that mask he's just a gentle cuddly bunny
he still told the story. people are still within their rights to drop whatever he's involved with.
like, ffs, i loved that anthony bourdain parts unknown sizzler episode in k-town, la, and now i'm pretty much gonna just forget about it because even if choe made up the story the whole dirtbag persona doesn't fit the vibe i want out of the media i watch
ain't even that deep or about some kind of literary criticism. dude gives me a gross vibe, won't watch. i dunno if jeff dunham is terrible but i don't like a dude that jams his hands up another without consent and then speaks for them, so i don't watch him.
posted by i used to be someone else at 11:30 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
The post script about the victim saying she initially refused him because she was afraid she'd fall in love sounds like a blatant fabrication, but it also sounds like the kind of lie that a rapist would tell, so... *shrugs*
posted by Selena777 at 12:16 PM on April 24, 2023
posted by Selena777 at 12:16 PM on April 24, 2023
Vonnegut said, "We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be."
I don't know whether Choe's story is true (I, frankly, am inclined to think it is not true, as I can't imagine he would have faced no legal consequences after telling the story), but I do know he allowed there to be ambiguity about whether it was true. Why? I don't know why, but I do know that if it weren't true, then what you still have is an ostensibly funny, cool guy telling a bunch of -- I'm gonna go out on a limb with this -- dudes, an audience comprised entirely of dudes, young and impressionable dudes who would listen to a podcast starring (I guess?) a comic and a porn star, telling these guys that he raped this woman and it was rad as hell brah. That's really, really bad, dude!
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:26 PM on April 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
I don't know whether Choe's story is true (I, frankly, am inclined to think it is not true, as I can't imagine he would have faced no legal consequences after telling the story), but I do know he allowed there to be ambiguity about whether it was true. Why? I don't know why, but I do know that if it weren't true, then what you still have is an ostensibly funny, cool guy telling a bunch of -- I'm gonna go out on a limb with this -- dudes, an audience comprised entirely of dudes, young and impressionable dudes who would listen to a podcast starring (I guess?) a comic and a porn star, telling these guys that he raped this woman and it was rad as hell brah. That's really, really bad, dude!
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:26 PM on April 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
So this thread is like the millionth example one could point to during the next round of handwringing about why Metafilter can't attract new users. Let's have people dying on the hill of defending rape culture (if not actual/likely rapists) because ~artistry/the power of storytelling. Sigh. It's exhausting, particularly giventhe skeevy dynamics of a story like this further conflating massage work and sex work. And yes, I'm also inclined to be even more annoyed at the specific detail that this woman, real or entirely fabricated, was a Black woman. This also speaks to a strong tradition of Asian anti-Blackness that is disheartening.
posted by TwoStride at 2:10 PM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 2:10 PM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
I don't know whether Choe's story is true (I, frankly, am inclined to think it is not true, as I can't imagine he would have faced no legal consequences after telling the story),
I would love to hear HOW you think he would face legal consequences for this?
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:41 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would love to hear HOW you think he would face legal consequences for this?
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:41 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Choe said it was fictional, in public apologies on April 19, 2014 (two days after the XOJane article previously linked was published; the podcast was on March 10) and again on June 16, 2017, after the mural backlash. The second statement discloses mental health issues and treatment, and is very different from the first.
2014 (posted on the DVDASA podcast site; below is the section of the Buzzfeed article with it):
"I never thought I'd wake up one late afternoon and hear myself called a rapist. It sucks. Especially because I am not one. I am not a rapist. I hate rapists, I think rapists should be raped and murdered.
"I am an artist and a storyteller and I view my show DVDASA as a complete extension of my art.
"If I am guilty of anything, it's bad storytelling in the style of douche. Just like many of my paintings are often misinterpreted, the same goes with my show. The main objective of all of my podcasts is to challenge and provoke my friends and the co-stars on the show. We fuck with each other, entertain ourselves and laugh at each other. It's a dark, tasteless, completely irreverent show where we fuck with everyone listening, but mostly ourselves. We create stories and tell tales. It's not a news show. It's not a representation of my reality. It's not the place to come for reliable information about me or my life. It's my version of reality, it's art that sometimes offends people. I'm sorry if anyone believed that the stories were fact. They were not!
"In a world full of horrible people, thank god for us."
2017 (posted on his Instagram; below is the section of the Brooklyn Street Art piece with screenshot and transcription; I broke up the block for readability):
“How does one apologize for a lifetime of doing wrong?
"Through my past three years of recovery and rehabilitation, I’ve attempted to answer that question through action and understanding. In my life I’ve struggled deeply with an unnatural amount of hatred I’ve had towards myself. Most of my life I’ve been a scared hurt shame filled person, trying to mask my insecurities with false confidence and an outwardly negative behavior to validate myself as worthy.
"In a 2014 episode of DVDASA, I relayed a story simply for shock value that made it seem as if I had sexually violated a woman. Though I said those words, I did not commit those actions. It did not happen. I have ZERO history of sexual assault. I am deeply sorry for any hurt I’ve brought to anyone through my past words. Non-consensual sex is rape and it is never funny or appropriate to joke about.
"I was a sick person at the height of my mental illness ,and have spent the last 3 years in mental health facilities healing myself and dedicating my life to helping and healing others through love and action. I do not believe in the things I have said although I take full ownership of saying them. Additionally, I do not condemn anyone or have any ill will towards those who spread hate and speak out negatively against me, no one will ever hate me more than I hated myself back then.
"Today I’ve learned to love and forgive others just as much as myself. It’s been a rough journey but i am grateful to be alive and to dedicate myself to shining the light I have found within myself and live in service and gratitude. I am truly sorry for the negative words and dark messages I had put out into the world.”
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:43 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
2014 (posted on the DVDASA podcast site; below is the section of the Buzzfeed article with it):
"I never thought I'd wake up one late afternoon and hear myself called a rapist. It sucks. Especially because I am not one. I am not a rapist. I hate rapists, I think rapists should be raped and murdered.
"I am an artist and a storyteller and I view my show DVDASA as a complete extension of my art.
"If I am guilty of anything, it's bad storytelling in the style of douche. Just like many of my paintings are often misinterpreted, the same goes with my show. The main objective of all of my podcasts is to challenge and provoke my friends and the co-stars on the show. We fuck with each other, entertain ourselves and laugh at each other. It's a dark, tasteless, completely irreverent show where we fuck with everyone listening, but mostly ourselves. We create stories and tell tales. It's not a news show. It's not a representation of my reality. It's not the place to come for reliable information about me or my life. It's my version of reality, it's art that sometimes offends people. I'm sorry if anyone believed that the stories were fact. They were not!
"In a world full of horrible people, thank god for us."
2017 (posted on his Instagram; below is the section of the Brooklyn Street Art piece with screenshot and transcription; I broke up the block for readability):
“How does one apologize for a lifetime of doing wrong?
"Through my past three years of recovery and rehabilitation, I’ve attempted to answer that question through action and understanding. In my life I’ve struggled deeply with an unnatural amount of hatred I’ve had towards myself. Most of my life I’ve been a scared hurt shame filled person, trying to mask my insecurities with false confidence and an outwardly negative behavior to validate myself as worthy.
"In a 2014 episode of DVDASA, I relayed a story simply for shock value that made it seem as if I had sexually violated a woman. Though I said those words, I did not commit those actions. It did not happen. I have ZERO history of sexual assault. I am deeply sorry for any hurt I’ve brought to anyone through my past words. Non-consensual sex is rape and it is never funny or appropriate to joke about.
"I was a sick person at the height of my mental illness ,and have spent the last 3 years in mental health facilities healing myself and dedicating my life to helping and healing others through love and action. I do not believe in the things I have said although I take full ownership of saying them. Additionally, I do not condemn anyone or have any ill will towards those who spread hate and speak out negatively against me, no one will ever hate me more than I hated myself back then.
"Today I’ve learned to love and forgive others just as much as myself. It’s been a rough journey but i am grateful to be alive and to dedicate myself to shining the light I have found within myself and live in service and gratitude. I am truly sorry for the negative words and dark messages I had put out into the world.”
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:43 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Especially because I am not one. I am not a rapist. I hate rapists, I think rapists should be raped and murdered.
Wow, I learned about this guy today and I hate him already. Thanks MeFi for the ⚠️
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:46 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Wow, I learned about this guy today and I hate him already. Thanks MeFi for the ⚠️
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:46 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
I would love to hear HOW you think he would face legal consequences for this?
You're not clear on how he would face consequences for a crime that he confessed to in detail, on a recording?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:29 PM on April 24, 2023
You're not clear on how he would face consequences for a crime that he confessed to in detail, on a recording?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:29 PM on April 24, 2023
How many times has a rapist been convicted based on what they said on a podcast. I’d like to remind you this is the US justice system.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:40 PM on April 24, 2023
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:40 PM on April 24, 2023
Zero times, when no one has filed charges. If they filed charges, and there was a recorded confession, that sounds like something that might result in a consequence of some sort, I don't know.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:01 PM on April 24, 2023
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:01 PM on April 24, 2023
All those are big ifs.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:07 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:07 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
You're not clear on how he would face consequences for a crime that he confessed to in detail, on a recording?
I was not under the impression we know who the victim was. Maybe I missed that.
And no, I don't expect he would.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:15 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I was not under the impression we know who the victim was. Maybe I missed that.
And no, I don't expect he would.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:15 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I am not a rapist. I hate rapists, I think rapists should be raped and murdered.
🙄
He's so against rape, his solution to it is more rape. That makes sense.
posted by Dysk at 6:18 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
🙄
He's so against rape, his solution to it is more rape. That makes sense.
posted by Dysk at 6:18 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just for the record, he literally said he made up this story.
Trump says the Access Hollywood tape is "just locker-room talk," but who believes that. Virtually every famous man whose dick gets him in trouble attempts to lie about it.
posted by anhedonic at 6:54 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Trump says the Access Hollywood tape is "just locker-room talk," but who believes that. Virtually every famous man whose dick gets him in trouble attempts to lie about it.
posted by anhedonic at 6:54 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
And I thought the off-putting scary vibe he manifested was an act. Seriously, I didn't know anything about him before this show. There has to be a term for when an actor does a convincing job of portraying a monster because they are actually just doing a version of themselves.
Some folks here are talking about the little screen time he takes up and are writing his character off as minor, but it's anything but minor. As the series goes on, his character becomes absolutely pivotal in many ways
posted by treepour at 8:02 PM on April 24, 2023
Some folks here are talking about the little screen time he takes up and are writing his character off as minor, but it's anything but minor. As the series goes on, his character becomes absolutely pivotal in many ways
posted by treepour at 8:02 PM on April 24, 2023
Lainey Gossip on the topic:
So they had all this time to address it, and they would no doubt have been working with public relationships experts and crisis management professionals, and in the end they came up with 76 words that have somehow made it worse.
You want a response? OK, here, we’ve responded. With an answer that’s a conversation-ender. And that’s what people want: a conversation.
But Steven Yeun, Ali Wong, and Lee Sung Jin don’t seem to be interested in that work. Their statement is about how they’ve observed David doing the work and how that was enough for them. The problem is that it’s not just about them.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:03 PM on April 24, 2023
So they had all this time to address it, and they would no doubt have been working with public relationships experts and crisis management professionals, and in the end they came up with 76 words that have somehow made it worse.
You want a response? OK, here, we’ve responded. With an answer that’s a conversation-ender. And that’s what people want: a conversation.
But Steven Yeun, Ali Wong, and Lee Sung Jin don’t seem to be interested in that work. Their statement is about how they’ve observed David doing the work and how that was enough for them. The problem is that it’s not just about them.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:03 PM on April 24, 2023
Yeah this isn’t a bit part. Chow’s character is probably the 5th most important character in a 6 hour long series. I will say he’s very good in the role, absolutely nails conveying someone who could explode at any time or come up with a bad idea and insist on everyone going along with it.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:23 AM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:23 AM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
This kind of brings me back to my original question, though, which is how obligated the people who created this show are to devote their lives to a conversation about whether David Choe is a huge asshole. Because I think Lainey Gossip is right to say that the creators are indeed not interested in that conversation; I think they're interested in a discussion of how many Emmys their show should win and how many movie deals they all can get. One could argue, perhaps rightly, that if they wanted to have that conversation, they should have hired another actor for the role; but I don't think it should come as much of a surprise that they're more interested in reaping the words of their work than in talking about an obviously bad casting choice. It's fine for us to say that their casting choice should supersede all other factors, but I highly doubt that the creators -- who stand to gain literally the world -- will ever agree with that assessment, right or wrong.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:24 AM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:24 AM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Honestly I feel like they should have started looking into people who are not just their friends, because if they are all about uplifting other Asian Americans, then they should try to spread the wealth. If they were really adamant about casting David Choe, who they are friends with, and they absolutely knew his history - you cannot be in David Choe's orbit, and not know the type of person he is, then they should have prepared better than the bullshit statement they put out. Ali Wong and Steven Yeun are the first people to talk about representation for Asian Americans, and these days we are beyond ONLY talking about representation - which is what Beef is about, right? These people want to be edgy but they can't handle the responsibility of inciting controversy with their choices.
They should be happy that they did the first week of media unscathed and before all of this blew up. Because now their choice of casting will be following them everywhere they go, and overshadow whatever good they were trying to do with their show.
I went through a few rabbitholes last night and found the following - trigger warnings for everything I'm about to list:
1. Apparently "DVDASA" the podcast David Choe ran with co-host Asa Akira, and they had a "crotch" cam on her so you could observe her while talking. (Also I am not going to type out what the acronym stands for, it grosses me out but you can google.) Most of the podcast archives have been scrubbed from the internet but you can find clips on YouTube and elsewhere.
2. Bobby Lee, another comedian with a child rape story/joke he has told multiple times everywhere is rumored to have also been cast to play the character of "Bobby" on the show, but he was unavailable (in rehab) and it was re-cast with someone else.
3. Steven Yeun was on at least two episodes of the DVDSA podcast, and can be heard here laughing while David Choe talks about his fantasy of being tied up while his girlfriend gets raped.
Anyway, in the meantime, investigative journalist Aura Bogado has filed a counter-notice to David Choe's copyright claim, with the assistance of EFF.
posted by toastyk at 8:43 AM on April 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
They should be happy that they did the first week of media unscathed and before all of this blew up. Because now their choice of casting will be following them everywhere they go, and overshadow whatever good they were trying to do with their show.
I went through a few rabbitholes last night and found the following - trigger warnings for everything I'm about to list:
1. Apparently "DVDASA" the podcast David Choe ran with co-host Asa Akira, and they had a "crotch" cam on her so you could observe her while talking. (Also I am not going to type out what the acronym stands for, it grosses me out but you can google.) Most of the podcast archives have been scrubbed from the internet but you can find clips on YouTube and elsewhere.
2. Bobby Lee, another comedian with a child rape story/joke he has told multiple times everywhere is rumored to have also been cast to play the character of "Bobby" on the show, but he was unavailable (in rehab) and it was re-cast with someone else.
3. Steven Yeun was on at least two episodes of the DVDSA podcast, and can be heard here laughing while David Choe talks about his fantasy of being tied up while his girlfriend gets raped.
Anyway, in the meantime, investigative journalist Aura Bogado has filed a counter-notice to David Choe's copyright claim, with the assistance of EFF.
posted by toastyk at 8:43 AM on April 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
Yeah, I'm super disappointed in the way this thread has gone. People are hung up on how much responsibility the producers, including Ali Wong and Steven Yuen had in casting him and whether that matters. It absolutely does. Just as toastyk mentions, they were in his orbit. They are all friends. The details of the podcast are even more disgusting.
Hollywood is hard to break into. Finally Asian Americans are getting in-- but now those folks have a responsibility as well-- to uphold integrity and not cast some rapey friend over someone else. The role could have gone to an unknown, but they chose not to do that. It was a choice.
Further, the thing about the actual art of Beef-- it absolutely absolutely focuses on all the trauma of the Asian American experience but not much of the healing.
Both the art side of the show and what has happened behind the scenes only further shows to me that there is deep healing work that needs to be done within our communities and that this conversation is necessary in that.
I'm disappointed in Wong and Yuen's statement.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 8:59 AM on April 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Hollywood is hard to break into. Finally Asian Americans are getting in-- but now those folks have a responsibility as well-- to uphold integrity and not cast some rapey friend over someone else. The role could have gone to an unknown, but they chose not to do that. It was a choice.
Further, the thing about the actual art of Beef-- it absolutely absolutely focuses on all the trauma of the Asian American experience but not much of the healing.
Both the art side of the show and what has happened behind the scenes only further shows to me that there is deep healing work that needs to be done within our communities and that this conversation is necessary in that.
I'm disappointed in Wong and Yuen's statement.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 8:59 AM on April 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
I've been incredibly disappointed by how Yuen, Wong and Lee have chosen to respond here.
I don't think it necessarily needs to reach the point of cutting off of ties with Choe (who besides his role as Isaac in the show also provided art for the show’s episodes intros which I thought lent a cool faux-fine-art energy to the show), but it's disingenuous to characterise his DMCA takedowns of removing the offending clips as 'put[ting] in the work'. A lot of vitriol against the three of them, and I wouldn't say they're completely unfounded either.
posted by Pachylad at 1:37 AM on April 23, 2023 [12 favorites]