The Empire Won That War
November 3, 2023 11:24 AM Subscribe
I'll confess to not having watched Saturday Night Live at all this season but this sketch—Washington's Dream—is damn funny. The host was Nate Bargatze, who is a comedian I've never heard of, and he also had a funny opening monologue.
Thanks for sharing this! I love Nate B.
posted by manageyourexpectations at 11:34 AM on November 3, 2023
posted by manageyourexpectations at 11:34 AM on November 3, 2023
that should not have been so funny! goes to show even the silliest stuff is good when it's done well. I LOL'd.
posted by supermedusa at 11:48 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 11:48 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Nate B is my favorite stand-up going right now. Total pro.
posted by Ike_Arumba at 11:50 AM on November 3, 2023
posted by Ike_Arumba at 11:50 AM on November 3, 2023
Funny as they may be, SNL Youtube videos are not available internationally.
posted by Ashenmote at 11:55 AM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Ashenmote at 11:55 AM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
For a little while when I lived in Seattle, I volunteered as a teacher for GED classes. Mostly I taught English, sometimes I got to work on math and science. The students were a mixed group that mostly fell into two categories: immigrants from Africa and Latin America, and older Americans who hadn't graduated high school. There was a real chaotic good quality to the classroom atmosphere.
One of my favorite memories is when we had a lesson about the scientific prefixes, like centi- and kilo- and so on. A couple of the American students insisted I was making this up, that there was no way people actually measured things that way. I tried to explain that it actually made a lot of sense--that each unit (mostly) had its basis in a physical constant, and if you knew one of them you could just step it up and down the scale instead of converting through random new units. The immigrant students noted that yes, this was how things worked in other countries.
It didn't make a dent in the disbelief that anyone wouldn't just use "feet" or "pounds," especially since I had to admit that as an American I myself tend to think in imperial units. Eventually I told them that it was fine if they thought I was just playing an elaborate practical joke, as long as they could answer correctly on the test.
posted by Four String Riot at 11:55 AM on November 3, 2023 [22 favorites]
One of my favorite memories is when we had a lesson about the scientific prefixes, like centi- and kilo- and so on. A couple of the American students insisted I was making this up, that there was no way people actually measured things that way. I tried to explain that it actually made a lot of sense--that each unit (mostly) had its basis in a physical constant, and if you knew one of them you could just step it up and down the scale instead of converting through random new units. The immigrant students noted that yes, this was how things worked in other countries.
It didn't make a dent in the disbelief that anyone wouldn't just use "feet" or "pounds," especially since I had to admit that as an American I myself tend to think in imperial units. Eventually I told them that it was fine if they thought I was just playing an elaborate practical joke, as long as they could answer correctly on the test.
posted by Four String Riot at 11:55 AM on November 3, 2023 [22 favorites]
SNL doing the lord's work in getting metrification back on the United States's radar
posted by rhymedirective at 11:57 AM on November 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by rhymedirective at 11:57 AM on November 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
Never forget the decabet!
posted by StarkRoads at 12:15 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by StarkRoads at 12:15 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
This was one of the better sketches last saturday, although when he said "how many yards to the mile" I was yelling internally "1760!!!!" but I guess that's not something everyone just has at the ready and I'm the weird one.
posted by dis_integration at 12:19 PM on November 3, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 12:19 PM on November 3, 2023 [15 favorites]
I remember being a kid and thinking 1,760 feet would be an easy thing to memorize, so I get it.
I'm from the 1900s as well, so it's curious that I wasn't aware of Nate Bargatze. I thought the opening monologue was one of the funniest I've seen in years.
posted by emelenjr at 12:25 PM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm from the 1900s as well, so it's curious that I wasn't aware of Nate Bargatze. I thought the opening monologue was one of the funniest I've seen in years.
posted by emelenjr at 12:25 PM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
"You asked about the temperature."
"I did not."
Keenan and Nate matched up well on that one.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 12:26 PM on November 3, 2023 [32 favorites]
"I did not."
Keenan and Nate matched up well on that one.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 12:26 PM on November 3, 2023 [32 favorites]
"What is this scale called, sir?"
"Farenheight."
"Spell that for me?"
"Impossible."
posted by AlSweigart at 12:30 PM on November 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
"Farenheight."
"Spell that for me?"
"Impossible."
posted by AlSweigart at 12:30 PM on November 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
Clearly! (It's Farenheit.)
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 12:32 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 12:32 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
I randomly watched this SNL episode. I found the chef show skit surprise guest a nice touch.
posted by zenon at 12:43 PM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by zenon at 12:43 PM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Clearly! (It's Farenheit.)
Indeed! (It's Fahrenheit.)
posted by kensington314 at 12:48 PM on November 3, 2023 [25 favorites]
Indeed! (It's Fahrenheit.)
posted by kensington314 at 12:48 PM on November 3, 2023 [25 favorites]
I love Nate Bargatze, who is from just down the road from where I live, and who I got to see live back when he opened for Mike Birbiglia at Zanies before the pandemic, when he wasn't really on anybody's radar yet, and he was fantastic. I still remember one of his jokes, about how 8th Avenue (where Zanies is) was exclusively for purchasing drugs and antiques (which isn't true anymore as that area has gentrified, but in 2015 or so when he told the joke it was hilarious to those of us from here and probably impenetrable to people who weren't).
Anyway, I loved this sketch.
"Our great nation will use the random one."
posted by joannemerriam at 1:16 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Anyway, I loved this sketch.
"Our great nation will use the random one."
posted by joannemerriam at 1:16 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is your reminder that the prime factorization of 5,280 is 2 × 2 × 2 × 2 × 2 × 3 × 5 × 11.
Eleven.
posted by The Tensor at 1:28 PM on November 3, 2023 [18 favorites]
Eleven.
posted by The Tensor at 1:28 PM on November 3, 2023 [18 favorites]
We actually do have a name for 1000 pounds, it's a half ton, and it's mostly used to define pickup trucks' relative carrying capacity between 1965 and 2000.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:36 PM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:36 PM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
It also reminds me of this classic Gallagher routine about English.
posted by bbrown at 1:45 PM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by bbrown at 1:45 PM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
@Ashenmote - Here's an attempt at conveying the humor for a British audience.
posted by bbrown at 1:47 PM on November 3, 2023
posted by bbrown at 1:47 PM on November 3, 2023
Thanks bbrown. I'm now well equipped to pose as someone who has watched the sketch and blend in. :D
(And anyway, I will see it eventually, I'm sure. Just not today.)
posted by Ashenmote at 2:29 PM on November 3, 2023
(And anyway, I will see it eventually, I'm sure. Just not today.)
posted by Ashenmote at 2:29 PM on November 3, 2023
You asked about the temperature.
I did not.
lol on preview, a repeat.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:31 PM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
I did not.
lol on preview, a repeat.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:31 PM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Once I dealt with a car mechanic that had to look up the conversion between L and mL.
posted by credulous at 2:32 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by credulous at 2:32 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
My European MIL uses deciliters when giving me a recipe and even as a Canadian I can never know if it’s 100mL or 10mL or what just tell me small or large container of sour cream and I’ll wing the rest so help me god
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:38 PM on November 3, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:38 PM on November 3, 2023 [11 favorites]
Pretty good sketch, though it suffers from the "cue card syndrome" of the players--namely Nate B. playing Washington--not knowing the lines and relying on cue cards for the whole skit. Which is probably from the rushed rehearsal and rewrites they do until the last minute on SNL.
As for the mixed metric/imperial system in the U.S. and U.K., both countries made a push back in the 70s to switch over to metric, but turns out most people like imperial and it kind of fizzled out. But it's why in the U.S., for example, we have 2-liter soda bottles...but gallon jugs of milk.
posted by zardoz at 2:47 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
As for the mixed metric/imperial system in the U.S. and U.K., both countries made a push back in the 70s to switch over to metric, but turns out most people like imperial and it kind of fizzled out. But it's why in the U.S., for example, we have 2-liter soda bottles...but gallon jugs of milk.
posted by zardoz at 2:47 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Funny as they may be, SNL Youtube videos are not available internationally.
This may be the funniest part of this particular sketch.
posted by adamrice at 3:03 PM on November 3, 2023 [16 favorites]
This may be the funniest part of this particular sketch.
posted by adamrice at 3:03 PM on November 3, 2023 [16 favorites]
but turns out most people like imperial
At least for temperature Fahrenheit's just a much more human-useful scale. Very rarely outside of scientific contexts does one find oneself wondering what are the freezing and boiling points of water relative to the current temperature, you just want to know if you need a jacket to go out.
The 1-100 scale in Fahrenheit is also very intuitive so you know 0F is very cold out and 100F is very hot out, whereas 0C is pretty cold out and 100C means all life on Earth died long ago. Also, in Fahrenheit being told "tonight it'll get down into the 50s" or "tomorrow it'll be in the mid-80s" is meaningful and useful.
posted by star gentle uterus at 3:33 PM on November 3, 2023 [25 favorites]
At least for temperature Fahrenheit's just a much more human-useful scale. Very rarely outside of scientific contexts does one find oneself wondering what are the freezing and boiling points of water relative to the current temperature, you just want to know if you need a jacket to go out.
The 1-100 scale in Fahrenheit is also very intuitive so you know 0F is very cold out and 100F is very hot out, whereas 0C is pretty cold out and 100C means all life on Earth died long ago. Also, in Fahrenheit being told "tonight it'll get down into the 50s" or "tomorrow it'll be in the mid-80s" is meaningful and useful.
posted by star gentle uterus at 3:33 PM on November 3, 2023 [25 favorites]
Having worked in the jewelry trade for many years, I'm fully at ease with the metric system...Do ya:'ll know the difference between karat and carat?
posted by Czjewel at 3:41 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Czjewel at 3:41 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Star gentle uterus: You are confusing what you are used to with some sort of norm. If you were used to centigrade / Celsius then it would make sense for letting you know how hot or cold it is, as it does for billions of people globally. Equally, Fahrenheit says nothing about needing a coat or otherwise to those unfamiliar with it.
posted by biffa at 3:44 PM on November 3, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by biffa at 3:44 PM on November 3, 2023 [17 favorites]
It's a shame they didn't have time to go into Ben Franklin's dream: that one day, American machinists would have to buy two sets of drill bits, two sets of gauge blocks, two sets of taps and dies; and that someday those sets would get mixed up in the backs of drawers and chests across this great land; that every red-blooded fastener-driving citizen will need two virtually indistinguishable but nevertheless non-interoperable sets of hexagonal driver bits, a situation of such Blinding Freedom that the cowardly Canadians would have to resort to screws with square sockets out of pure unbridled inferiority; that we would throw off the shackles of British Standard Pipe-- curse the very name!-- and have our own, purely American National Pipe Threading standard, lest foreign toilets mar our patriotic soil; that-- but you asked about the measurement of heat? ("I did not.") We will of course, use therms. And what is a therm? Why it is of course one thousandth of a British Thermal Unit. But because we are free, we will only use the British Thermal Unit because the British themselves will not! And besides, their BTU is different than our BTU. Furthermore, we shall use decatherms, but only if you live in Texas; otherwise we shall use the cubic foot for the measurement of gas
posted by phooky at 3:52 PM on November 3, 2023 [32 favorites]
posted by phooky at 3:52 PM on November 3, 2023 [32 favorites]
(John Macdonald's dream of course was that Canada would also use BTU, but it would be different.)
posted by phooky at 3:58 PM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by phooky at 3:58 PM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
“A melting pot of different measurements that will make Europeans throw little tantrums”
Loved this line in particular. So many little tantrums here every time this comes up.
If you’re used to imperial, it makes perfect sense. These measurements get drilled into you by school and society.
And I do agree that Fahrenheit is a better measure for outside temperature because it’s easier to be more granular, and also it’s intuitive to think of the outdoor temperature on scale of 0-100 like star gentile uterus describes.
posted by LizBoBiz at 4:50 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
Loved this line in particular. So many little tantrums here every time this comes up.
If you’re used to imperial, it makes perfect sense. These measurements get drilled into you by school and society.
And I do agree that Fahrenheit is a better measure for outside temperature because it’s easier to be more granular, and also it’s intuitive to think of the outdoor temperature on scale of 0-100 like star gentile uterus describes.
posted by LizBoBiz at 4:50 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
Have lived in Europe for a year and traveled extensively internationally talking in liquid weights, distances, and measures is really not too hard. But I second (or third) the notion that I could never intuitively adapt the Celsius temperatures. Maybe I just needed to watch the morning news more to know that 20 was a normal spring temperature
posted by CostcoCultist at 4:56 PM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by CostcoCultist at 4:56 PM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
If you’re used to imperial, it makes perfect sense.
That's really more of a comment on the way that things which have no basis in reason appear to simply because they are customary.
posted by klanawa at 4:58 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
That's really more of a comment on the way that things which have no basis in reason appear to simply because they are customary.
posted by klanawa at 4:58 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
I should also not that Mr. Fahrenheit was a Pole living in the Netherlands when he perfected the mercury thermometer.
I highly recommend the Musuem Boherhaave if you find yourself in the Netherlands to see some of the earliest thermometers and microscopes.
posted by CostcoCultist at 4:59 PM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
I highly recommend the Musuem Boherhaave if you find yourself in the Netherlands to see some of the earliest thermometers and microscopes.
posted by CostcoCultist at 4:59 PM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
I believe that on of the things that killed metricization in the US (aside from general stubbornness on conservatism) was that everything was relabeled with 3 decimal points (0.946 liters of milk) giving people the impression they'd have to do math to understand grocery shopping.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 5:02 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 5:02 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
At least for temperature Fahrenheit's just a much more human-useful scale. Very rarely outside of scientific contexts does one find oneself wondering what are the freezing and boiling points of water relative to the current temperature, you just want to know if you need a jacket to go out.
Totally agree--Fahrenheit is simply more accurate. Temperature could go up three or four degrees Fahrenheit but in Celsius it would stay the same. Not a terribly important difference, but Fahrenheit is objectively more accurate.
I've made this claim before and non-Americans are like "But but! What about the freezing point of water? The boiling point??"
Two numbers you have to memorize, which Americans know from a young age--32 for freezing and 212 for boiling. The latter is not useful or used at all, so it's really just one number you need to keep in your mind: 32 for freezing. That's it! Not hard, non-Americans, not hard at all!
posted by zardoz at 5:07 PM on November 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
Totally agree--Fahrenheit is simply more accurate. Temperature could go up three or four degrees Fahrenheit but in Celsius it would stay the same. Not a terribly important difference, but Fahrenheit is objectively more accurate.
I've made this claim before and non-Americans are like "But but! What about the freezing point of water? The boiling point??"
Two numbers you have to memorize, which Americans know from a young age--32 for freezing and 212 for boiling. The latter is not useful or used at all, so it's really just one number you need to keep in your mind: 32 for freezing. That's it! Not hard, non-Americans, not hard at all!
posted by zardoz at 5:07 PM on November 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
The other is that the perceived value or benefits of such a switch just aren't that significant. Once you understand imperial (and you do through immersion, just like language), it's not that hard to work with and you don't often have to deal with metric.
One thing I've noticed in watching British TV is that there are still a lot of references to miles, pounds (weight), and degrees Fahrenheit. (Also stones, which really surprised me.) Is it still mixed over there—mostly metric but some holdouts in popular culture—or am I just watching aberrations and it's metric all over?
posted by bbrown at 5:08 PM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
One thing I've noticed in watching British TV is that there are still a lot of references to miles, pounds (weight), and degrees Fahrenheit. (Also stones, which really surprised me.) Is it still mixed over there—mostly metric but some holdouts in popular culture—or am I just watching aberrations and it's metric all over?
posted by bbrown at 5:08 PM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
I recall the day--er, evening-- that our bar customers learned to say "Imperial Pint" instead of "pint*", and how a week later our Welsh owner quietly got rid of all the Imperial Pint glasses gifted by warring beer distributors. Americans can get very comfortable with other measurement systems I assure you.
*because happy hour was technically illegal but we sold beer by the pint, extremely good tap beer.
posted by winesong at 5:09 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
*because happy hour was technically illegal but we sold beer by the pint, extremely good tap beer.
posted by winesong at 5:09 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
(Psst! Hey! The Ben Franklin bit above was a joke, but it really kind of wasn't! American manufacturing is less internationally competitive than it could be because of this goofy shit!)
posted by phooky at 5:17 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by phooky at 5:17 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
A thousand pounds is a kip, damnit.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 5:31 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 5:31 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
One thing I've noticed in watching British TV is that there are still a lot of references to miles, pounds (weight), and degrees Fahrenheit.
Roads/distances as well as speeds/speed limits are entirely in miles/mph. People weigh themselves in pounds and stones. Shop measures are labelled mostly in kg, but people would understand pounds. Fahrenheit was pretty common within my lifetime but centigrade is the norm now and I think a lot of people would struggle with F now. Beer and milk is in pints (or multiples of 568ml). Other drinks are in mL or litres.
posted by biffa at 5:42 PM on November 3, 2023
Roads/distances as well as speeds/speed limits are entirely in miles/mph. People weigh themselves in pounds and stones. Shop measures are labelled mostly in kg, but people would understand pounds. Fahrenheit was pretty common within my lifetime but centigrade is the norm now and I think a lot of people would struggle with F now. Beer and milk is in pints (or multiples of 568ml). Other drinks are in mL or litres.
posted by biffa at 5:42 PM on November 3, 2023
A simple rhyme to understand Celsius in your everyday life:
Thirty is hot
Twenty is nice
Ten is cool
Zero is ice.
posted by obscure simpsons reference at 5:54 PM on November 3, 2023 [28 favorites]
Thirty is hot
Twenty is nice
Ten is cool
Zero is ice.
posted by obscure simpsons reference at 5:54 PM on November 3, 2023 [28 favorites]
At least for temperature Fahrenheit's just a much more human-useful scale. --posted by star gentle uterus
I've read the argument that this is why Doctors in India use Fahrenheit for measuring a patient's temperature even though India uses Celsius for everything else, although I'm willing to bet it was partially due to pushback of changing all their equipment and updating all their patient records. "No, that's not it--it just a more appropriate scale for humans" is what they probably insisted.
I'm an engineer (in the US) and there's a lot of mixture of measurements in the industry (which can lead to problems). All product temperature tests are measured in Celsius, though, and we always set the ovens back to 25°C when we are done. That's the only reason I know that this temperature must be a typical room temperature.
posted by eye of newt at 6:01 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've read the argument that this is why Doctors in India use Fahrenheit for measuring a patient's temperature even though India uses Celsius for everything else, although I'm willing to bet it was partially due to pushback of changing all their equipment and updating all their patient records. "No, that's not it--it just a more appropriate scale for humans" is what they probably insisted.
I'm an engineer (in the US) and there's a lot of mixture of measurements in the industry (which can lead to problems). All product temperature tests are measured in Celsius, though, and we always set the ovens back to 25°C when we are done. That's the only reason I know that this temperature must be a typical room temperature.
posted by eye of newt at 6:01 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Do y'all know the difference between karat and carat?
It's important to know the difference between caret and carrot, but if you mix up karat and carat, I wouldn't care at all
posted by aubilenon at 6:21 PM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's important to know the difference between caret and carrot, but if you mix up karat and carat, I wouldn't care at all
posted by aubilenon at 6:21 PM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't take anyone advocating for metric unit adoption seriously unless they're also advocating for decimal time as well. Otherwise I feel you're just styling for your customary units, it's not because you care about the decimal system overall!
posted by Carillon at 6:46 PM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Carillon at 6:46 PM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
star gentle uterus: "Also, in Fahrenheit being told "tonight it'll get down into the 50s" or "tomorrow it'll be in the mid-80s" is meaningful and useful."
I get that you're used to Fahrenheit, but that argument makes 0 sense, both in metric and imperial measurements.
Also, how many fahrenheits in 1 cup, and who owns the cup?
posted by signal at 6:56 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
I get that you're used to Fahrenheit, but that argument makes 0 sense, both in metric and imperial measurements.
Also, how many fahrenheits in 1 cup, and who owns the cup?
posted by signal at 6:56 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
My favorite hot take when I want to rile up some Europeans is that Fahrenheit is superior to Celsius. Most water doesn't freeze at 0C, and water rarely boil at 100C either. They're equally arbitrary, and Fahrenheit is at least useful for a human-scale.
If you actually want a unit system that is universal, you're better off with Planck temperature. Water boils at 2.631×10^-30 Planck, and freezes at 1.928×10^-30. The human body is at (2.178×10^-30 to 2.201×10^-30) T_P (Planck temperatures).
See, so helpful! It's about as clear as Celsius.
posted by MengerSponge at 6:58 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you actually want a unit system that is universal, you're better off with Planck temperature. Water boils at 2.631×10^-30 Planck, and freezes at 1.928×10^-30. The human body is at (2.178×10^-30 to 2.201×10^-30) T_P (Planck temperatures).
See, so helpful! It's about as clear as Celsius.
posted by MengerSponge at 6:58 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
I believe that on of the things that killed metricization in the US (aside from general stubbornness on conservatism) was that everything was relabeled with 3 decimal points (0.946 liters of milk) giving people the impression they'd have to do math to understand grocery shopping.
My opinion is that factory machining killed the metric system switch in the US, for sort of the reason you describe: literally everything around much of the world was machined in imperial units, which destroys the value of the metric system like (.946) liters or 32 oz, which is easier? Across much of the world, machining changed in the recent past (~2000s+) but US machining is finally starting to change to metric as well, so everything is 33.814 ounces or whatever random value, or 1000ml.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:23 PM on November 3, 2023
My opinion is that factory machining killed the metric system switch in the US, for sort of the reason you describe: literally everything around much of the world was machined in imperial units, which destroys the value of the metric system like (.946) liters or 32 oz, which is easier? Across much of the world, machining changed in the recent past (~2000s+) but US machining is finally starting to change to metric as well, so everything is 33.814 ounces or whatever random value, or 1000ml.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:23 PM on November 3, 2023
klanawa: "That's really more of a comment on the way that things which have no basis in reason appear to simply because they are customary."
I think that's rather rude, given that star gentle uterus provided specific reasoning for why Fahrenheit might be more intuitive for everyday use.
posted by Spinda at 7:52 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think that's rather rude, given that star gentle uterus provided specific reasoning for why Fahrenheit might be more intuitive for everyday use.
posted by Spinda at 7:52 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also remember that the imperial system is defined in metric units, so when you pretend to use your fahrenheits and hogsheads and dry-gallons or whatever, you're using the metric system anyway.
posted by signal at 8:12 PM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by signal at 8:12 PM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Having familiarized myself with both as a multi-country resident over the years, I now use Fahrenheit in the summer and Celsius in the winter. Each seems most accurate for those seasons to me.
posted by mollymillions at 8:41 PM on November 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by mollymillions at 8:41 PM on November 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
I used to mentor a guy who moved to Paris, he's a carpenter, it took him all of fourteen seconds to figure out that metric is *way* better, real easy to make sense of things. Moved back here to the states and was/is totally annoyed, US people just do not like change. No matter if it makes sense, no matter that it can be learned in 12 seconds.
I enjoy asking people from foreign lands how many hectares are in a litre -- one online friend from Australia, it really bugged her, which was fun, I maybe need to try it on Thella...
I read/listen to a *lot* of history podcasts, WW1 and WW2, and because they hate me they'll go back and forth in the same damn podcast.
First time I ran into it In Real Life was a 1994 Ford F150* pickup truck, just changing out the shock absorbers you needed both real and metric tools. I've since purchased a whole 'nother set of sockets and wrenches because you need to have them or you're hosed.
*Why is a pickup truck denoted at F150? No reason at all. None. They hate us
As long as I'm moanng about this jive, hows about The Richter Scale. Lunacy.
posted by dancestoblue at 10:30 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
I enjoy asking people from foreign lands how many hectares are in a litre -- one online friend from Australia, it really bugged her, which was fun, I maybe need to try it on Thella...
I read/listen to a *lot* of history podcasts, WW1 and WW2, and because they hate me they'll go back and forth in the same damn podcast.
First time I ran into it In Real Life was a 1994 Ford F150* pickup truck, just changing out the shock absorbers you needed both real and metric tools. I've since purchased a whole 'nother set of sockets and wrenches because you need to have them or you're hosed.
*Why is a pickup truck denoted at F150? No reason at all. None. They hate us
As long as I'm moanng about this jive, hows about The Richter Scale. Lunacy.
posted by dancestoblue at 10:30 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Growing up in a desert in the US I am intimately familiar with the difference between 84, 94, 104, and 114 F, but couldn't tell you the equivalents in Celsius. Living in Sweden now I'm sensitive to the difference between - 4, 4, and 14 C but would be hard pressed to do an on-the-fly conversion.
Something I think most Americans don't understand about the metric system is how often millimeters are used in daily life. Like, the depth of a countertop is 600mm, even in common parlance, and rarely 60 cm. Practically this means that say you want to find the center of a wall and it's 2537 mm wide: I'd argue that that calculating that number in the head on the fly would be more difficult than say finding half the value of 8' 3 7/8“ for those trained in both systems. Plus the fact that your imperial measurement in this case requires a level of precision appropriate for the task, while finding the metric center by the book means calculating to tenths of a millimeter, just to hang a picture. Not in any way saying Imperial is better, but critiques of the systems by people not intimately familiar with everyday use of both ring hollow.
posted by St. Oops at 11:48 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Something I think most Americans don't understand about the metric system is how often millimeters are used in daily life. Like, the depth of a countertop is 600mm, even in common parlance, and rarely 60 cm. Practically this means that say you want to find the center of a wall and it's 2537 mm wide: I'd argue that that calculating that number in the head on the fly would be more difficult than say finding half the value of 8' 3 7/8“ for those trained in both systems. Plus the fact that your imperial measurement in this case requires a level of precision appropriate for the task, while finding the metric center by the book means calculating to tenths of a millimeter, just to hang a picture. Not in any way saying Imperial is better, but critiques of the systems by people not intimately familiar with everyday use of both ring hollow.
posted by St. Oops at 11:48 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's just what you are used to, mostly. I grew up in the UK, and then moved to the continent, but went to American schools at first. So I do know both systems well. However my professional, adult training was in the metric system and I prefer it now. I feel it is easier and more intuitive, but I suspect that is because I was trained that way.
St. Oops, for your problem, I would probably use geometry rather than calculus, finding the center by drawing circles or diagonals. But I would also find it easier to calculate the metric number, because I'm more used to it.
posted by mumimor at 2:05 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
St. Oops, for your problem, I would probably use geometry rather than calculus, finding the center by drawing circles or diagonals. But I would also find it easier to calculate the metric number, because I'm more used to it.
posted by mumimor at 2:05 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's absolutely just what you're used to. When Americans talk about say, 74° I can intuit they mean somewhere between freezing and boiling but that's about it, there's certainly nothing inherently intuitive about Fahrenheit.
posted by goo at 2:19 AM on November 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by goo at 2:19 AM on November 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
For me (in the UK) Imperial seems a great colloquial system of measurements. Each unit is a compact, human scale thing: a pint, three inches, excellent, I can picture those. But when you get to multiples above five, or, heaven help us, non-integer amounts, that's the time to bust out the metric.
posted by Hermione Dies at 2:50 AM on November 4, 2023
posted by Hermione Dies at 2:50 AM on November 4, 2023
There's a reason that Americans resort to measuring anything larger than a car in football fields, you know.
posted by signal at 3:46 AM on November 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by signal at 3:46 AM on November 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
The thing that blows my students' minds isn't that alternate systems of measurement exist, it's that there was ever a time when measurements weren't systematized and that the process of systematizing was a deliberate process that didn't happen that long ago.
posted by subdee at 4:46 AM on November 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by subdee at 4:46 AM on November 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Like, how big is a cup? It's two handfuls. How big is a handful? It's how much you can hold in your hands. What if you have bigger hands? It wasn't that important back then.
posted by subdee at 4:47 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by subdee at 4:47 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
If you ever have to use units of measure to do calculations for anything metric hands down wins. For example a Slug is the equivalent unit of mass to grams/kg for mass. Pounds are actually a measurement of force. So you have to do weird conversions if for some reason the two might not be the same. For human body temperature 1/2 degree Celsius is about 1 degree Farehenight. It’s not more accurate it just has a different scale and you get use to use 1/2 degree increments if you need to. Same thing with pint vs 1/2 liter which everyone is used to now with water bottles. Like subdee said it doesn’t matter for most day to day things but once you have to start doing stuff imperial system gets messy fast. My guess is manufacturers will be the ones to change it over the next decade and people still might use it colloquially, but no where else.
———-
This was probably the funniest overall set of SNL skits I have seen in a while. I enjoyed it.
posted by roguewraith at 5:52 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
———-
This was probably the funniest overall set of SNL skits I have seen in a while. I enjoyed it.
posted by roguewraith at 5:52 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
The 1-100 scale in Fahrenheit is also very intuitive so you know 0F is very cold out and 100F is very hot out,
a convert from the metric system once told me that she had to teach her self Fahrenheit by thinking "What percent hot is it?"
posted by entropone at 5:57 AM on November 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
a convert from the metric system once told me that she had to teach her self Fahrenheit by thinking "What percent hot is it?"
posted by entropone at 5:57 AM on November 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
Omg I am so tired of the argument that Fahrenheit is more “intuitive” than Celcius or w/e, like Danish people are looking at the weather on their phone before they go out like “gee man it says it’s 18 out but WHAT DOES THAT MEAN”
You’re just used to Fahrenheit.
Also, you’re already using Celcius and you don’t even know it, because temperature measurements used in weather reports in the United States are *gasp* measured in Celcius and then converted to Fahrenheit.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:17 AM on November 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
You’re just used to Fahrenheit.
Also, you’re already using Celcius and you don’t even know it, because temperature measurements used in weather reports in the United States are *gasp* measured in Celcius and then converted to Fahrenheit.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:17 AM on November 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
The idea that imperial measurements are more "intuitive" is such a perfect mix of insularity and exceptionalism.
posted by signal at 6:58 AM on November 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by signal at 6:58 AM on November 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
everything was relabeled with 3 decimal points (0.946 liters of milk)
Random Shower Thought: While pumping gas (in the US) the other day I noticed the display for gallons showed thousandths (three digits right of the decimal). Turns out that a thousandth of a gallon is about a large raindrop. So it would seem that, based on gas pumps, raindrops are the basis for "a gallon",
posted by achrise at 6:59 AM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Random Shower Thought: While pumping gas (in the US) the other day I noticed the display for gallons showed thousandths (three digits right of the decimal). Turns out that a thousandth of a gallon is about a large raindrop. So it would seem that, based on gas pumps, raindrops are the basis for "a gallon",
posted by achrise at 6:59 AM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
For example a Slug is the equivalent unit of mass to grams/kg for mass. Pounds are actually a measurement of force.
No, a US pound is a unit of mass defined as 0.45something kg. This has been true since the 1950s.
There is also a unit of force named a pound which is the force exerted by one pound at 1 standard g.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:23 AM on November 4, 2023
No, a US pound is a unit of mass defined as 0.45something kg. This has been true since the 1950s.
There is also a unit of force named a pound which is the force exerted by one pound at 1 standard g.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:23 AM on November 4, 2023
Thirty is hot
Twenty is nice
Ten is cool
Zero is ice.
My personal system for on the fly conversion is similar, but relies on 20° F covering roughly the same amount of space as 11° C, so:
-11° C ≈ 12° F = Very cold
0° C = 32° F = Freezing
11° C ≈ 52° F = Chilly
22° C ≈ 72° F = Perfect
33° C ≈ 92° F = Hot
You can also use the Fibonacci sequence to quickly convert between miles and kilometers: go up one number from miles to km (5 mi ≈ 8 km) and down to go km to miles (5 km ≈ 3 mi).
And 750ml is a fifth of a gallon. I didn’t learn that one from math class, though.
posted by thecaddy at 9:04 AM on November 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Twenty is nice
Ten is cool
Zero is ice.
My personal system for on the fly conversion is similar, but relies on 20° F covering roughly the same amount of space as 11° C, so:
-11° C ≈ 12° F = Very cold
0° C = 32° F = Freezing
11° C ≈ 52° F = Chilly
22° C ≈ 72° F = Perfect
33° C ≈ 92° F = Hot
You can also use the Fibonacci sequence to quickly convert between miles and kilometers: go up one number from miles to km (5 mi ≈ 8 km) and down to go km to miles (5 km ≈ 3 mi).
And 750ml is a fifth of a gallon. I didn’t learn that one from math class, though.
posted by thecaddy at 9:04 AM on November 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
The word classic preceding the surname Gallagher is an unanticipated juxtaposition which most people have never encountered in a sentence.
posted by y2karl at 9:20 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 9:20 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Practically this means that say you want to find the center of a wall and it's 2537 mm wide: I'd argue that that calculating that number in the head on the fly would be more difficult than say finding half the value of 8' 3 7/8“ for those trained in both systems.
I don't... what? Half of 2537 in my head would be like, half of 2500 is 1250 and half of 37 is about 18 or 19 (half 40 is 20 less half 3 is 1.5 is 18.5), so it's 1268.5. Whereas for feet I'd go like, half of 8' is 4' plus half of 4" is 2" so it's 4' 2" less like 1/16" which I'm not too fussed about for hanging a picture.
I've lived for multiple decades in both the US and Canada so I guess I'm ambimeasuretrous. To me the mental math is pretty much exactly the same amount of difficulty, with the metric being maybe a bit easier (and I'm more confident of my answer in metric because I learned feet and inches as an adult).
posted by joannemerriam at 9:40 AM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't... what? Half of 2537 in my head would be like, half of 2500 is 1250 and half of 37 is about 18 or 19 (half 40 is 20 less half 3 is 1.5 is 18.5), so it's 1268.5. Whereas for feet I'd go like, half of 8' is 4' plus half of 4" is 2" so it's 4' 2" less like 1/16" which I'm not too fussed about for hanging a picture.
I've lived for multiple decades in both the US and Canada so I guess I'm ambimeasuretrous. To me the mental math is pretty much exactly the same amount of difficulty, with the metric being maybe a bit easier (and I'm more confident of my answer in metric because I learned feet and inches as an adult).
posted by joannemerriam at 9:40 AM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also if you measured the wall with a boring normal US tape measure, it would directly read out as 99 7/8 inches.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:19 AM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:19 AM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
@Subdee
What if you have bigger hands?
Everyone knows what this means.
posted by jimfl at 10:48 AM on November 4, 2023
What if you have bigger hands?
Everyone knows what this means.
posted by jimfl at 10:48 AM on November 4, 2023
Star gentle uterus: You are confusing what you are used to with some sort of norm. If you were used to centigrade / Celsius then it would make sense for letting you know how hot or cold it is, as it does for billions of people globally.
Strong disagree here. Fahrenheit makes intuitive sense because we're used to thinking in terms of percentages or scales of 1-10. At risk of inviting Spinal Tap jokes, no one makes a volume knob that goes from 1 to 3.7
posted by treepour at 11:12 AM on November 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Strong disagree here. Fahrenheit makes intuitive sense because we're used to thinking in terms of percentages or scales of 1-10. At risk of inviting Spinal Tap jokes, no one makes a volume knob that goes from 1 to 3.7
posted by treepour at 11:12 AM on November 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Fahrenheit makes intuitive sense because we're used to thinking in terms of percentages
Sure, I can totally see how that rules out a scale of 0 to 100 C.
It seems intuitive because you're used to Fahrenheit. It means nothing to people who aren't used to Fahrenheit.
posted by biffa at 11:18 AM on November 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Sure, I can totally see how that rules out a scale of 0 to 100 C.
It seems intuitive because you're used to Fahrenheit. It means nothing to people who aren't used to Fahrenheit.
posted by biffa at 11:18 AM on November 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
we're used to thinking in terms of percentages or scales of 1-10.
Ummmmmmmmm
posted by rhymedirective at 11:21 AM on November 4, 2023
Ummmmmmmmm
posted by rhymedirective at 11:21 AM on November 4, 2023
Sure, I can totally see how that rules out a scale of 0 to 100 C.
It seems intuitive because you're used to Fahrenheit. It means nothing to people who aren't used to Fahrenheit.
I meant with regard to how it feels. 10 feels/sounds LOUD. 100 feels HOT. I get the boiling point of water thing and it makes wonderful sense from a scientific, rational measurement standpoint. But I stick by my assertion that Fahrenheit is more intuitively mapped to subjective experience
posted by treepour at 11:24 AM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
It seems intuitive because you're used to Fahrenheit. It means nothing to people who aren't used to Fahrenheit.
I meant with regard to how it feels. 10 feels/sounds LOUD. 100 feels HOT. I get the boiling point of water thing and it makes wonderful sense from a scientific, rational measurement standpoint. But I stick by my assertion that Fahrenheit is more intuitively mapped to subjective experience
posted by treepour at 11:24 AM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yeah, no.
posted by signal at 11:53 AM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by signal at 11:53 AM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
bob and doug mckenzie had the best C to F rule: “double it and add thirty”.
posted by bruceo at 11:54 AM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by bruceo at 11:54 AM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
"That's pretty smart, eh? Grab me another cold one"
posted by Windopaene at 12:53 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Windopaene at 12:53 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Have lived in Europe for a year and traveled extensively internationally talking in liquid weights, distances, and measures is really not too hard. But I second (or third) the notion that I could never intuitively adapt the Celsius temperatures. Maybe I just needed to watch the morning news more to know that 20 was a normal spring temperature
I was born American but have lived in Europe for the last 1.5 years (and have spent a good chunk of the last decade bouncing between the US and Europe) and honestly I just find myself thinking in metric now. Meters and liters just make more sense in my head, to the point where I think 0,4L instead of a pint when ordering a beer. It's so much more simpler when you only have one unit to deal with.
That being said, I still have trouble wrapping my head around Celcius - it's just harder to gauge whether 15C or whatever is jacket/coat/sweater or whatever weather. Forcing myself to watch the local weather helps a lot but yeah, it's harder to adjust when your brain is wired to Fahrenheit for whatever reason.
posted by photo guy at 2:05 PM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
I was born American but have lived in Europe for the last 1.5 years (and have spent a good chunk of the last decade bouncing between the US and Europe) and honestly I just find myself thinking in metric now. Meters and liters just make more sense in my head, to the point where I think 0,4L instead of a pint when ordering a beer. It's so much more simpler when you only have one unit to deal with.
That being said, I still have trouble wrapping my head around Celcius - it's just harder to gauge whether 15C or whatever is jacket/coat/sweater or whatever weather. Forcing myself to watch the local weather helps a lot but yeah, it's harder to adjust when your brain is wired to Fahrenheit for whatever reason.
posted by photo guy at 2:05 PM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
I switched my Waze app to use metric, just to get a sense of distances, and my wife and daughter slightly freaked out. "How do you know how far it is?"
posted by kirkaracha at 3:42 PM on November 4, 2023
posted by kirkaracha at 3:42 PM on November 4, 2023
Just tell them that 1 km is the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1000/299,792,458 of a second.
posted by signal at 4:18 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by signal at 4:18 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
photoguy -- I've lived out of the U.S. for over 15 years, and yes, metric is better in most every way. But Celsius just doesn't hold a candle to Fahrenheit. Fifteen years and I still have to do a little mental calculation whenever I see the temperature.
posted by zardoz at 7:44 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by zardoz at 7:44 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
It seems intuitive because it's what you're used to.
If you told me it's 59F outside, I, intuitively, would not know whether to wear a sweater. I mean I probably wouldn't, in fact I wouldn't go outside at all because I would intuit that something has gone very wrong with the climate.
posted by haapsane at 1:20 AM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
If you told me it's 59F outside, I, intuitively, would not know whether to wear a sweater. I mean I probably wouldn't, in fact I wouldn't go outside at all because I would intuit that something has gone very wrong with the climate.
posted by haapsane at 1:20 AM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
It does indeed seem intuitive because it's what some folks are used to and not because it's intrinsically more intuitive, but when its 59F outside lots of people are going to be legitimately unsure about whether they should wear a sweater. Here in Buffalo people will be uncertain whether it's okay to keep wearing shorts or maybe time for a sweater. People in Orlando will be uncertain whether a sweater will do or they need an arctic parka.
Does everyone where you live see that it's 15C outside and are just certain about whether they should wear a sweater? They're not going to have to stop and think about how windy it seems or whether it's drizzly or whether it's overcast or sunny or [joking] how much of a weather wuss they are?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:25 AM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Does everyone where you live see that it's 15C outside and are just certain about whether they should wear a sweater? They're not going to have to stop and think about how windy it seems or whether it's drizzly or whether it's overcast or sunny or [joking] how much of a weather wuss they are?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:25 AM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oops, I was referring to a previous comment:
"That being said, I still have trouble wrapping my head around Celcius - it's just harder to gauge whether 15C or whatever is jacket/coat/sweater or whatever weather."
but I forgot to quote it
posted by haapsane at 4:23 AM on November 5, 2023
"That being said, I still have trouble wrapping my head around Celcius - it's just harder to gauge whether 15C or whatever is jacket/coat/sweater or whatever weather."
but I forgot to quote it
posted by haapsane at 4:23 AM on November 5, 2023
Well then consider my reply a reply to that!
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:49 AM on November 5, 2023
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:49 AM on November 5, 2023
It does indeed seem intuitive because it's what some folks are used to and not because it's intrinsically more intuitive, but when its 59F outside lots of people are going to be legitimately unsure about whether they should wear a sweater.
It's 59% of the way from being needing a heavy coat to being so hot that you're going to go see a random movie just for the air conditioning
posted by treepour at 8:32 AM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's 59% of the way from being needing a heavy coat to being so hot that you're going to go see a random movie just for the air conditioning
posted by treepour at 8:32 AM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
As a Canadian I simply leave the house naked and take whatever clothes I need from the large sack I carry with me at all times
posted by Gerald Bostock at 8:32 AM on November 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Gerald Bostock at 8:32 AM on November 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't understand the argument of Fahrenheit being more intuitive because 0 is cold and 100 is hot ... liiiiiike 32 is freezing. If you told me without context that you had devised a cold to hot scale where 0 was cold and 100 was hot, I would assume 32 would be kind of not quite lukewarm?
posted by joannemerriam at 3:13 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by joannemerriam at 3:13 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Temperature could go up three or four degrees Fahrenheit but in Celsius it would stay the same.
this is literally never true. I swear to god, it's like Americans have been brainwashed by imperial propaganda.
posted by ZaphodB at 3:30 PM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
this is literally never true. I swear to god, it's like Americans have been brainwashed by imperial propaganda.
posted by ZaphodB at 3:30 PM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
If you told me without context that you had devised a cold to hot scale where 0 was cold and 100 was hot, I would assume 32 would be kind of not quite lukewarm?
32F is not particularly cold, just because it is the freezing point of water. It's still short sleeves weather if you are doing any exercising and there is no howling wind. Perhaps even shorts if you are a ruffian.
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:52 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
32F is not particularly cold, just because it is the freezing point of water. It's still short sleeves weather if you are doing any exercising and there is no howling wind. Perhaps even shorts if you are a ruffian.
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:52 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I just really enjoy the idea that 95% of the world population has to suffer their inferior, unintuitive, socialist measurement system and go around all day not knowing what 20°C really feels like, man, how long a meter is, how much water a liter is, or how to find the center of wall to hang a painting on it—while the 5% or so who use the superior imperial measurements can just automatically sense the difference between 32°F and 33°F and always know whether or not to bring a sweater and are always fully aware of the precise center of things.
posted by signal at 4:54 PM on November 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by signal at 4:54 PM on November 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
I was reminded of this Mr. Show sketch where the founding fathers try to design a flag that can't be defecated upon.
posted by credulous at 4:54 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by credulous at 4:54 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
So is everyone that is disparaging the imperial system or touting the metric system prepared to say that that's just because it's just what they're used to? Or do you really it is the intuitive one that is objectively superior to American measurements?
I love the imperial system, it makes a lot of sense to me, and I'm fully aware that it's because I've been suffused in it my entire life. (For the wall measurement thing, I'd just convert the mixed feet and inches to just inches and work that way.)
posted by bbrown at 7:25 PM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
I love the imperial system, it makes a lot of sense to me, and I'm fully aware that it's because I've been suffused in it my entire life. (For the wall measurement thing, I'd just convert the mixed feet and inches to just inches and work that way.)
posted by bbrown at 7:25 PM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
As a physicist, I am on team "metric is better for everything except temperature, specifically in the context of weather reports."
You can tell me the glass transition temperature for epoxy or the freezing point of gallium in celcius - that's fine. (But then, why not Kelvin?)
But for weather reports, I want a really cold winter day to be zero and a really hot summer day to be one hundred.
Just don't talk to me about inches and "mils" though, okay? That's just silly.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:28 PM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
You can tell me the glass transition temperature for epoxy or the freezing point of gallium in celcius - that's fine. (But then, why not Kelvin?)
But for weather reports, I want a really cold winter day to be zero and a really hot summer day to be one hundred.
Just don't talk to me about inches and "mils" though, okay? That's just silly.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:28 PM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
So is everyone that is disparaging the imperial system or touting the metric system prepared to say that that's just because it's just what they're used to? Or do you really it is the intuitive one that is objectively superior to American measurements?
I'll answer your question with a quote.
“In metric, one milliliter of water occupies one cubic centimeter, weighs one gram, and requires one calorie of energy to heat up by one degree centigrade — which is 1 percent of the difference between its freezing point and its boiling point. Whereas in the American system, the answer to ‘How much energy does it take to boil a room-temperature gallon of water?’ is ‘Go fuck yourself,’ because you can’t directly relate any of those quantities.”
from Wild Things, by Josh Bazell
posted by ZaphodB at 7:51 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'll answer your question with a quote.
“In metric, one milliliter of water occupies one cubic centimeter, weighs one gram, and requires one calorie of energy to heat up by one degree centigrade — which is 1 percent of the difference between its freezing point and its boiling point. Whereas in the American system, the answer to ‘How much energy does it take to boil a room-temperature gallon of water?’ is ‘Go fuck yourself,’ because you can’t directly relate any of those quantities.”
from Wild Things, by Josh Bazell
posted by ZaphodB at 7:51 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
bbrown: "(For the wall measurement thing, I'd just convert the mixed feet and inches to just inches and work that way.)"
I was referring to this quite spectacularly bonkers assertion:
Practically this means that say you want to find the center of a wall and it's 2537 mm wide… finding the metric center by the book means calculating to tenths of a millimeter, just to hang a picture.
And, if it wasn't clear already, to the remarkeably twisted logic people are using in this thread to support the nonsensical idea that imperial measurments are more "intuitive" than metric, and I put "intuitive" in quotes because I have no idea what it would mean in relation to a measurement system, but whatever it is, imperial ain't it.
posted by signal at 3:49 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
I was referring to this quite spectacularly bonkers assertion:
Practically this means that say you want to find the center of a wall and it's 2537 mm wide… finding the metric center by the book means calculating to tenths of a millimeter, just to hang a picture.
And, if it wasn't clear already, to the remarkeably twisted logic people are using in this thread to support the nonsensical idea that imperial measurments are more "intuitive" than metric, and I put "intuitive" in quotes because I have no idea what it would mean in relation to a measurement system, but whatever it is, imperial ain't it.
posted by signal at 3:49 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
By the way, a book recommendation for people in this thread...
The Measure of All Things by Ken Alder.
It's about the invention of the metric system, during the French revolution. Specifically it's about a crazy journey across war torn 18th century Europe in an attempt to measure the diameter of the earth so it could be used to define a meter. (Spoiler - they screwed up the measurements and we all live with that forever now.)
Very much the vibe of this sketch, really.
Also, did you know they wanted to invent a metric angular degree at the time, such that a 90 degree angle would instead be a 100 degree angle? Never caught on...
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:55 AM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
The Measure of All Things by Ken Alder.
It's about the invention of the metric system, during the French revolution. Specifically it's about a crazy journey across war torn 18th century Europe in an attempt to measure the diameter of the earth so it could be used to define a meter. (Spoiler - they screwed up the measurements and we all live with that forever now.)
Very much the vibe of this sketch, really.
Also, did you know they wanted to invent a metric angular degree at the time, such that a 90 degree angle would instead be a 100 degree angle? Never caught on...
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:55 AM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Whereas in the American system, the answer to ‘How much energy does it take to boil a room-temperature gallon of water?’ is ‘Go fuck yourself,’ because you can’t directly relate any of those quantities.”
(A) That's the answer in SI too because Bazell forgot that the boiling point of water depends on ambient pressure, so you need to specify where you are and what the weather is. Also he forgot that the mass of a volume of water depends on its temperature and purity and is only 1g/ml for pure water at 4C. Also he forgot the heat of vaporization, which also depends on ambient pressure.
(B) A BTU is, definitionally, how much heat is required to raise 1 pound of water 1 degree fahrenheit. At the level of useless party trick the notional metric answer is good for, a gallon is 8 pounds.
(C) Why would you want to do this? It tells you how much energy the water needs to receive, not how much energy you need to expel with whatever device you're using to heat the water, to say nothing of the energy you'd need to supply that device. You've got to heat the water's container too, and you'll be heating some air around it, you'll be heating the water you prematurely vaporize, and there are efficiency losses in your device. Many of the "metric is superior" things fall into this category of party tricks with no serious use.
Again, the US should much more firmly adopt the metric system. "Everyone else is using it" is well beyond a good enough reason to do so. It's okay if the metric system is not objectively superior in every way.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:10 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
(A) That's the answer in SI too because Bazell forgot that the boiling point of water depends on ambient pressure, so you need to specify where you are and what the weather is. Also he forgot that the mass of a volume of water depends on its temperature and purity and is only 1g/ml for pure water at 4C. Also he forgot the heat of vaporization, which also depends on ambient pressure.
(B) A BTU is, definitionally, how much heat is required to raise 1 pound of water 1 degree fahrenheit. At the level of useless party trick the notional metric answer is good for, a gallon is 8 pounds.
(C) Why would you want to do this? It tells you how much energy the water needs to receive, not how much energy you need to expel with whatever device you're using to heat the water, to say nothing of the energy you'd need to supply that device. You've got to heat the water's container too, and you'll be heating some air around it, you'll be heating the water you prematurely vaporize, and there are efficiency losses in your device. Many of the "metric is superior" things fall into this category of party tricks with no serious use.
Again, the US should much more firmly adopt the metric system. "Everyone else is using it" is well beyond a good enough reason to do so. It's okay if the metric system is not objectively superior in every way.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:10 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Before anyone else says it: no, base 10 is not inherently more intuitive, and no it has nothing to do with the number of fingers we have.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 6:43 AM on November 6, 2023
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 6:43 AM on November 6, 2023
Got it. Imperial system is intuitive? That's just American parochialism. Get over yourselves.
Metric system is intuitive? Obviously. Everyone uses it (so it must be the better system) and everything is oriented around the number 1. QED.
I unabashedly prefer the imperial system because I know it thoroughly. (I also prefer English, JavaScript, and "Weird Al" Yankovic parodies over their originals.) Perhaps, just perhaps, the metric system advocates prefer it for the same reason? Probably crazy talk because they're above such pedestrian biases.
posted by bbrown at 6:45 AM on November 6, 2023
Metric system is intuitive? Obviously. Everyone uses it (so it must be the better system) and everything is oriented around the number 1. QED.
I unabashedly prefer the imperial system because I know it thoroughly. (I also prefer English, JavaScript, and "Weird Al" Yankovic parodies over their originals.) Perhaps, just perhaps, the metric system advocates prefer it for the same reason? Probably crazy talk because they're above such pedestrian biases.
posted by bbrown at 6:45 AM on November 6, 2023
So is everyone that is disparaging the imperial system or touting the metric system prepared to say that that's just because it's just what they're used to? Or do you really it is the intuitive one that is objectively superior to American measurements?
I grew up with metric and moved to the US at the age of 30, and have been here 19 years. Both systems are about the same amount of intuitive, which is to say, not at all. Of course it's what you are used to.
Here is how I translate temperatures: "It's 70F and that feels warmish but not uncomfortably warm, like jeans-but-no-jacket-unless-it's-windy weather, and that feeling is similar to the way it felt at home when it was in the high teens or low 20s, so 70F must be around 20C." I have kind of memorized what it feels like outside when it's 85 or 55 or whatever, so I have an idea of what those temperatures mean.
Because I live in Tennessee, it's almost never below 30F, so I don't really have a sense of Fahrenheit below those temps, but the assertion above that 30F is "still short sleeves weather if you are doing any exercising and there is no howling wind" is... something. But I am a post-menopausal woman so I am always too cold so whatever.
Metric is objectively superior because it's easy to learn, not because there is some objective way of understanding the temperature. Imperial is inferior only because it forces you to memorize stuff like there being 5260 feet in a mile and there being different sets of random numbers for each kind of measurement, instead of only having to memorize what the prefixes milli, centi, etc mean and then apply that knowledge to every unit of measure.
posted by joannemerriam at 7:47 AM on November 6, 2023
I grew up with metric and moved to the US at the age of 30, and have been here 19 years. Both systems are about the same amount of intuitive, which is to say, not at all. Of course it's what you are used to.
Here is how I translate temperatures: "It's 70F and that feels warmish but not uncomfortably warm, like jeans-but-no-jacket-unless-it's-windy weather, and that feeling is similar to the way it felt at home when it was in the high teens or low 20s, so 70F must be around 20C." I have kind of memorized what it feels like outside when it's 85 or 55 or whatever, so I have an idea of what those temperatures mean.
Because I live in Tennessee, it's almost never below 30F, so I don't really have a sense of Fahrenheit below those temps, but the assertion above that 30F is "still short sleeves weather if you are doing any exercising and there is no howling wind" is... something. But I am a post-menopausal woman so I am always too cold so whatever.
Metric is objectively superior because it's easy to learn, not because there is some objective way of understanding the temperature. Imperial is inferior only because it forces you to memorize stuff like there being 5260 feet in a mile and there being different sets of random numbers for each kind of measurement, instead of only having to memorize what the prefixes milli, centi, etc mean and then apply that knowledge to every unit of measure.
posted by joannemerriam at 7:47 AM on November 6, 2023
Enh, when I hear that something is 1/4 mile away, I don't do the math to calculate that it's 1320 feet away. In other words, I don't generally need to put huge measurements in terms of smaller ones or vice versa. I think that might be what people are meaning by "intuitive" and that's why each system's proponents can feel like theirs is more intuitive. (And both be right.)
For me, metric's "objective superiority" is like Esperanto's. I will agree that metric is better for precision and calculation, as imperial can get unwieldy for both.
posted by bbrown at 8:05 AM on November 6, 2023
For me, metric's "objective superiority" is like Esperanto's. I will agree that metric is better for precision and calculation, as imperial can get unwieldy for both.
posted by bbrown at 8:05 AM on November 6, 2023
If esperanto were the global language, spoken by 7 billion plus, and English was a parochial throwback only used by a few hundred million...
posted by sagc at 8:12 AM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by sagc at 8:12 AM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
If the guys during the French revolution had succeeded in their measurement, and if the 400 degree circle had caught on, then the meter would be ten-millionth of the distance between the pole and the equator, and therefore 100 degrees of latitude would be 10 million meters, so that one meter would have been 0.00001 metric degrees of latitude. Nice system, huh? Unfortunately if you get the diameter of the earth wrong and also people still like evenly divisible numbers for angular measurements, it doesn't work out so nicely. Earth's polar circumference today measures 40007.863 km, off by 0.02% from the target value of exactly 40000 km.
And the meter is now defined as 1/299792458 of the distance light travels in 1 second, where 1 second is defined as 9,192,631,770 cycles of a microwave field which is tuned to excite the unperturbed hyperfine transition of the of the caesium-133 atom.
Super intuitive, right?
An inch is defined as exactly 2.54 cm.
That's right, our imperial units are now defined in terms of the metric system!
From a scientists' point of view, you just want to base these things on measurements that are easy to check (so some gold bar in some vault somewhere is not ideal, because you want to be able to calibrate your instruments without bringing them on a plane.) The speed of light is very consistent and relatively easy to measure, and cesium atomic clocks are pretty easy to buy or, if you really had to, to build, these days. So both metric and imperial meet that standard now... so to speak. Because Imperial is defined in terms of metric anyway.
But for doing math and converting between units, metric really is nicer, because it matches up with our base 10 number system, and the units are defined in terms of one another in a convenient way, generally (except not the meter.)
But Kelvin really is nicer for doing temperature math (absolute zero is a much better "zero" than the freezing point of water) and really not as nice for expressing things in human-scale numbers.
We don't have to fight about it or get all patriotic about it, though (despite the French Revolutionaries and apparently George Washington) because it's all arbitrary and nowadays imperial is defined in terms of metric anyway. Just keep a good conversion calculator on your phone.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:18 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
And the meter is now defined as 1/299792458 of the distance light travels in 1 second, where 1 second is defined as 9,192,631,770 cycles of a microwave field which is tuned to excite the unperturbed hyperfine transition of the of the caesium-133 atom.
Super intuitive, right?
An inch is defined as exactly 2.54 cm.
That's right, our imperial units are now defined in terms of the metric system!
From a scientists' point of view, you just want to base these things on measurements that are easy to check (so some gold bar in some vault somewhere is not ideal, because you want to be able to calibrate your instruments without bringing them on a plane.) The speed of light is very consistent and relatively easy to measure, and cesium atomic clocks are pretty easy to buy or, if you really had to, to build, these days. So both metric and imperial meet that standard now... so to speak. Because Imperial is defined in terms of metric anyway.
But for doing math and converting between units, metric really is nicer, because it matches up with our base 10 number system, and the units are defined in terms of one another in a convenient way, generally (except not the meter.)
But Kelvin really is nicer for doing temperature math (absolute zero is a much better "zero" than the freezing point of water) and really not as nice for expressing things in human-scale numbers.
We don't have to fight about it or get all patriotic about it, though (despite the French Revolutionaries and apparently George Washington) because it's all arbitrary and nowadays imperial is defined in terms of metric anyway. Just keep a good conversion calculator on your phone.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:18 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
I do sincerely wish that back in the day when they were creating metric, them folks had set 1 meter equal to what we now call 1 decimeter and then:
1 cubic meter = 1 liter*
1 cubic meter of standard water = 1 gram
and work their way up from there. always one to one to one to one, not the current system of 1/10 of length leads to 1 of volume leads to 1000 of mass. Not to mention the mess of cgs and mks units outside of the strict SI world.
Where US measures fall flat on their face is in the kitchen, where we use a hodgepodge of weird volume measurements based AFAICT on how cookbooks developed in the 19th century.
*Or just don't have liters; they don't have any real added value
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:33 AM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
1 cubic meter = 1 liter*
1 cubic meter of standard water = 1 gram
and work their way up from there. always one to one to one to one, not the current system of 1/10 of length leads to 1 of volume leads to 1000 of mass. Not to mention the mess of cgs and mks units outside of the strict SI world.
Where US measures fall flat on their face is in the kitchen, where we use a hodgepodge of weird volume measurements based AFAICT on how cookbooks developed in the 19th century.
*Or just don't have liters; they don't have any real added value
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:33 AM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Can we talk about how we have twenty four hours per day broken up into twelve hour halves, but for some reason noon (the highest AM number) is somehow PM?
And having lived in Europe and the States, they both work, and the mental arithmetic isn't THAT hard. Stone's still a bit of a brain twister though. After years of only meeting on Zoom, my new English boss was shocked to see how large I am in person. I double shocked him by saying "C'mon 17 and half stone works on 2 meters."
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:52 AM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
And having lived in Europe and the States, they both work, and the mental arithmetic isn't THAT hard. Stone's still a bit of a brain twister though. After years of only meeting on Zoom, my new English boss was shocked to see how large I am in person. I double shocked him by saying "C'mon 17 and half stone works on 2 meters."
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:52 AM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
> Having familiarized myself with both as a multi-country resident over the years, I now use Fahrenheit in the summer and Celsius in the winter.
Me too! I grew up in cold Celsius countries, but would spend some summers in the hot Fahrenheit parts of the US, and so I still think that way. (Except I remember we called it Centigrade.)
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:07 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Me too! I grew up in cold Celsius countries, but would spend some summers in the hot Fahrenheit parts of the US, and so I still think that way. (Except I remember we called it Centigrade.)
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:07 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
GCU Sweet and Full of Grace: "Where US measures fall flat on their face is in the kitchen, where we use a hodgepodge of weird volume measurements based AFAICT on how cookbooks developed in the 19th century."
Yeah, I grew up with the Imperial system, but calling a unit of volume a "fluid ounce" is just perverse. The thing that gets me about recipes calibrated in metric is that those recipes often use weights where an American recipe would use volumes. Weights are probably a more predictable measure than volumes (especially for something that can settle, like flour or sugar, or something chunky, like chopped carrots). I'm just not accustomed to it.
posted by adamrice at 12:54 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I grew up with the Imperial system, but calling a unit of volume a "fluid ounce" is just perverse. The thing that gets me about recipes calibrated in metric is that those recipes often use weights where an American recipe would use volumes. Weights are probably a more predictable measure than volumes (especially for something that can settle, like flour or sugar, or something chunky, like chopped carrots). I'm just not accustomed to it.
posted by adamrice at 12:54 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm equally bad at kitchen measuring in all scales.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 1:04 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 1:04 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I actually like imperial for the kitchen because if I only have one piece of measuring equipment, even if it’s just a regular cup, it’s easy to convert the measurements because the recipes generally mostly 1/4, 1/2, or 1 of that thing. Whereas in metric by weight, I actually have to have a kitchen scale to be able to cook. It’s a lot harder to get 30% or 70% of a thing than it is with fractions in whatever base that is (2? 12?). Imperial is easier to get the relative measurements with rough tools, while metric feels like I need more precise tools to cook.
(And who doesn’t have a kitchen scale? I didn’t and most everyone I know in the US who isn’t a very serious cook doesn’t. Because imperial doesn’t require that kind of equipment)
Volume vs weight: imperial knows it’s a volume measure and so will instruct whether the contents are to be loose or packed. The trick is that converting between the two required you to take into account what your substance is: 1 cup of marshmallows is not the same metric amount as 1 cup of flour.
posted by LizBoBiz at 1:51 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
(And who doesn’t have a kitchen scale? I didn’t and most everyone I know in the US who isn’t a very serious cook doesn’t. Because imperial doesn’t require that kind of equipment)
Volume vs weight: imperial knows it’s a volume measure and so will instruct whether the contents are to be loose or packed. The trick is that converting between the two required you to take into account what your substance is: 1 cup of marshmallows is not the same metric amount as 1 cup of flour.
posted by LizBoBiz at 1:51 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
God, you people are hopeless. Didn't you ever learn this rhyme in school?
When your soda takes a spill,
16.9 ounces is 500 mL;
But when a liter would be great,
Ounces equal 33.8.
posted by mittens at 1:56 PM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
When your soda takes a spill,
16.9 ounces is 500 mL;
But when a liter would be great,
Ounces equal 33.8.
posted by mittens at 1:56 PM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
mumimor: "How to Measure a Scant Cup of Flour
Is this a joke?"
You'd think so, but no.
posted by signal at 2:06 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is this a joke?"
You'd think so, but no.
posted by signal at 2:06 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not only is it not a joke, it's wrong! If you're going to measure flour by volume, use a spoon to plop it into your measuring cup. That helps avoid overcompressing it.
Doesn't really matter unless you're baking, though, at which point you really are better off weighing.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:03 PM on November 6, 2023
Doesn't really matter unless you're baking, though, at which point you really are better off weighing.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:03 PM on November 6, 2023
> How to Measure a Scant Cup of Flour
listen i don't care metric or imperial do what you want but your baking recipes should be by weight not volume for gods sake
posted by dis_integration at 4:32 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
listen i don't care metric or imperial do what you want but your baking recipes should be by weight not volume for gods sake
posted by dis_integration at 4:32 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
For gods sake it doesn’t matter as long as the recipe is given in volumes/weights appropriately.
posted by LizBoBiz at 5:55 PM on November 6, 2023
posted by LizBoBiz at 5:55 PM on November 6, 2023
Again: “…will make Europeans throw little tantrums”
More than Europeans it turns out!
Imperial is intuitive if it’s what you’re used to. I’d say for every-day (i.e. non-science uses) it really doesn’t matter. Whatever you’re used to is fine. I have lived in both imperial and metric countries, I can do temperature in Celcius, I don’t have to convert unless I want to be exact. I do prefer imperial for everyday temps, and everyday cooking. I like metric for distances and lengths (weight I don’t really have that much use for at the moment).
It’s really tiring to have all the metric people seemingly refuse to consider that imperial can be better for some uses. Imperial people here regularly admit that metric is better for X,Y,Z uses, but any logic or description of a possibly useful reason to use imperial is completely dismissed and ignored because “it’s what we’re used to”
Metric isn’t perfect, see the actual information needed to determine the actual amount of energy needed to heat up a liter of water, or that 1 kilogram is not the weight of a kiloliter but instead a liter (knowing this last piece requires it to be learned over time, thus making it “intuitive”).
Like jfc people, every time this comes up it’s just a big hate-fest for imperial and smug metricity. The measurement version of your favorite band sucks. God forbid someone use a different measuring system from you in their own lives…no no they must be told how wrong they are and we will force them to use our system instead.
posted by LizBoBiz at 6:10 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
More than Europeans it turns out!
Imperial is intuitive if it’s what you’re used to. I’d say for every-day (i.e. non-science uses) it really doesn’t matter. Whatever you’re used to is fine. I have lived in both imperial and metric countries, I can do temperature in Celcius, I don’t have to convert unless I want to be exact. I do prefer imperial for everyday temps, and everyday cooking. I like metric for distances and lengths (weight I don’t really have that much use for at the moment).
It’s really tiring to have all the metric people seemingly refuse to consider that imperial can be better for some uses. Imperial people here regularly admit that metric is better for X,Y,Z uses, but any logic or description of a possibly useful reason to use imperial is completely dismissed and ignored because “it’s what we’re used to”
Metric isn’t perfect, see the actual information needed to determine the actual amount of energy needed to heat up a liter of water, or that 1 kilogram is not the weight of a kiloliter but instead a liter (knowing this last piece requires it to be learned over time, thus making it “intuitive”).
Like jfc people, every time this comes up it’s just a big hate-fest for imperial and smug metricity. The measurement version of your favorite band sucks. God forbid someone use a different measuring system from you in their own lives…no no they must be told how wrong they are and we will force them to use our system instead.
posted by LizBoBiz at 6:10 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I was raised in Imperial/Fahrenheit never found it intuitive. It was always bad and stupid and I never understood it. Now I live in a country that uses metric and Celsius and everything makes sense.
So, I disagree with the idea that it's just "what you're raised with" or that Imperial-good-for-some-things-Metric-good-for-others or that we should all just cheerily let people use whatever system they like, why can't we all get along. Imperial has caused some extremely expensive catastrophes because it's so incredibly dumb.
Imperial is bad and stupid and makes everything harder. That is my lived experience.
posted by kyrademon at 6:20 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
So, I disagree with the idea that it's just "what you're raised with" or that Imperial-good-for-some-things-Metric-good-for-others or that we should all just cheerily let people use whatever system they like, why can't we all get along. Imperial has caused some extremely expensive catastrophes because it's so incredibly dumb.
Imperial is bad and stupid and makes everything harder. That is my lived experience.
posted by kyrademon at 6:20 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Hey lots of people raised in imperial/Fahrnheit do find it intuitive! Sorry you found it bad and stupid. People are different! Good thing you now don't have to deal with it anymore since it was so horrific and traumatic for you. Other people find it useful so why can't we just leave them alone and let them do their thing?
Imperial has caused some extremely expensive catastrophes because it's so incredibly dumb.
Those catastrophic problems, that's not because of imperial vs metric, that's user error in not stating the unit of measurement and that error is possible any time there is more than one system around. It happens all the time with currency conversion or clothing sizes, when no one says what the unit is.
Just try working for a international company dealing with alot of currencies and see how many confused questions you get when people assume someting is in one currency when its actually in another because someone didnt label something. Or if I say I'm a size 40 in clothes but don't say the country I'm measuring for, I'm probably not going to get the size I need.
posted by LizBoBiz at 6:45 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Imperial has caused some extremely expensive catastrophes because it's so incredibly dumb.
Those catastrophic problems, that's not because of imperial vs metric, that's user error in not stating the unit of measurement and that error is possible any time there is more than one system around. It happens all the time with currency conversion or clothing sizes, when no one says what the unit is.
Just try working for a international company dealing with alot of currencies and see how many confused questions you get when people assume someting is in one currency when its actually in another because someone didnt label something. Or if I say I'm a size 40 in clothes but don't say the country I'm measuring for, I'm probably not going to get the size I need.
posted by LizBoBiz at 6:45 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Imperial has caused some extremely expensive catastrophes because it's so incredibly dumb.
Like? If you mean the Mars crash, that happened because one system expected to receive input in newton-seconds, which is reasonable because newtons are the SI unit of force, but was actually sent pound-seconds by a Lockheed part so it was off by a factor of about 5. This same thing could just as easily have happened entirely within the metric system if Lockheed had sent the data in equally metric (but not SI) dyne-seconds, where dynes are the centimeter-gram-second equivalent of meter-kilogram-second newtons.
Again: the US should absolutely adopt the metric system much more fully than it has. Because everyone else is using it, not because metric is inherently superior in every respect.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:13 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Like? If you mean the Mars crash, that happened because one system expected to receive input in newton-seconds, which is reasonable because newtons are the SI unit of force, but was actually sent pound-seconds by a Lockheed part so it was off by a factor of about 5. This same thing could just as easily have happened entirely within the metric system if Lockheed had sent the data in equally metric (but not SI) dyne-seconds, where dynes are the centimeter-gram-second equivalent of meter-kilogram-second newtons.
Again: the US should absolutely adopt the metric system much more fully than it has. Because everyone else is using it, not because metric is inherently superior in every respect.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:13 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
To sum up the thread, Brits and Americans need to dump imperial entirely and embrace metric. With the exception of temperature: Non-Americans need to dump Celsius and embrace Fahrenheit.
That is all.
posted by zardoz at 12:03 AM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
That is all.
posted by zardoz at 12:03 AM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
But only for weather reports. It can be like dew point and wind chill and heat index - a weather-specific number.
"It's 7.22 degrees out there today for a 45 on the Fahrenheit warmness scale, so bring a light jacket, folks!"
posted by OnceUponATime at 3:21 AM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
"It's 7.22 degrees out there today for a 45 on the Fahrenheit warmness scale, so bring a light jacket, folks!"
posted by OnceUponATime at 3:21 AM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Fun fact, Fahrenheit also screwed up. 100 was supposed to be normal human body temperature. Off by a couple of degrees! (And off by more as time goes on because the average human body temp has been slowly dropping for years.)
Zero is the freezing point of a saturated salt water solution.
Since humans are mostly salt water we need a lot of insulation to survive at a temperatures below 0 F. And once the air gets above the temperature of our insides cooling ourselves becomes a real issue. So it's not a coincidence that Fahrenheit 0-100 is useful for weather. Humans have trouble living in places where the temperature is frequently outside that range (at least without furnaces and air conditioning).
posted by OnceUponATime at 3:33 AM on November 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Zero is the freezing point of a saturated salt water solution.
Since humans are mostly salt water we need a lot of insulation to survive at a temperatures below 0 F. And once the air gets above the temperature of our insides cooling ourselves becomes a real issue. So it's not a coincidence that Fahrenheit 0-100 is useful for weather. Humans have trouble living in places where the temperature is frequently outside that range (at least without furnaces and air conditioning).
posted by OnceUponATime at 3:33 AM on November 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
That is all.
posted by zardoz
Huh. Usually I associate you with a broader set of quite firm opinions.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:59 AM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by zardoz
Huh. Usually I associate you with a broader set of quite firm opinions.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:59 AM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I propose a consensus solution: base everything off of an American Football field (FF), but use metric-style prefixes. So we get:
FF = 109.7m
dFF = 10.9 m
cFF = 1.09 m
mFF = 0.109 m
kFF = 109,728 m
MFF = 109,728,000 m
Volumes are based on FF³:
dFF³ = 1,321,000 l
mFF³ = 1.32 l
etc.
Now, an American Football match averages about 3 hours in real time, so using that, we have a time unit FM:
dFM=18 minutes
cFm = 1.8 minutes or 108 seconds
mFM = 0.18 minutes or 10.8m seconds
kFM = 180,000 minutes
etc.
For speed, obviously, we use "football field per football match" (FF/FM)
1 FF/FM = 0.03658 km/h
1 kFF/FM = 36.58 km/h
etc
Simple, and it leverages humans' intuitive grasp of the size of an American Football field and the duration of a game, so everybody's happy.
For temperature? We stick with Celsius, but call it Freedom Fahrenheit, or °FF, just to keep things simple.
posted by signal at 5:42 AM on November 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
FF = 109.7m
dFF = 10.9 m
cFF = 1.09 m
mFF = 0.109 m
kFF = 109,728 m
MFF = 109,728,000 m
Volumes are based on FF³:
dFF³ = 1,321,000 l
mFF³ = 1.32 l
etc.
Now, an American Football match averages about 3 hours in real time, so using that, we have a time unit FM:
dFM=18 minutes
cFm = 1.8 minutes or 108 seconds
mFM = 0.18 minutes or 10.8m seconds
kFM = 180,000 minutes
etc.
For speed, obviously, we use "football field per football match" (FF/FM)
1 FF/FM = 0.03658 km/h
1 kFF/FM = 36.58 km/h
etc
Simple, and it leverages humans' intuitive grasp of the size of an American Football field and the duration of a game, so everybody's happy.
For temperature? We stick with Celsius, but call it Freedom Fahrenheit, or °FF, just to keep things simple.
posted by signal at 5:42 AM on November 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
That is all.
Aside from the fact that a MeFi discussion about an SNL sketch has no influence on such an outcome, I do not concede at all that America should go full metric or ROW should go Fahrenheit.
Live and let live, metricists. If an American company is going to sell into EU, it's going to conduct business in metric. If an American tourist ventures into Prague, he's going to have to deal with unfamiliar measurements during his stay. I know it's uncomfortable doing the reverse but you can do it even though it doesn't make any sense.
posted by bbrown at 6:33 AM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Aside from the fact that a MeFi discussion about an SNL sketch has no influence on such an outcome, I do not concede at all that America should go full metric or ROW should go Fahrenheit.
Live and let live, metricists. If an American company is going to sell into EU, it's going to conduct business in metric. If an American tourist ventures into Prague, he's going to have to deal with unfamiliar measurements during his stay. I know it's uncomfortable doing the reverse but you can do it even though it doesn't make any sense.
posted by bbrown at 6:33 AM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm currently planning a quilt using some fabric I bought in Japan (measurements given in cm, three different cuts) and some fat quarters from the US and some scraps, and for the love of god can we please just pick one measurement and stick with it, quilt math is hard enough on its own without having to figure all this out.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:10 AM on November 8, 2023
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:10 AM on November 8, 2023
Imperial has caused some extremely expensive catastrophes because it's so incredibly dumb.
I worked in construction - building giant steel bins to store food. Everything was in imperial, except the crew of assembling the thing - we were metric. These things cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, were 6 stories tall and many could store over a million bushels of grain.
There were many parts - the cement pad the bin sat on needed to have both anchor bolts deeply embedded and channels for air to be forced into the bin floor. The bin itself had a roof structure that required a crane to assist in assembly, and some mechanism to dump grain into the top, and all of these required a reasonable level of precision.
Our regular sized crane cost about 5 grand a day to have on site, and I witnessed the crane showing up only to then discover than someone could do the math for measuring the necessary operating distance of the base of crane and it's outriggers, measured in feet, minus the size of the bin aprons, measured in inches. Less than 6 inches cost a whole day, the daily crane fee, plus the higher cost of a larger crane and the additional time in prepping an alternative site for the larger machine to operate.
The anchors needed to be around a meter apart around the permitter of the bin, generally about 12-18 inches from the edge of the pad. A big pizza pie problem but all the math is written down and everything is in the spec. The cement crew still got it wrong because the width of the bolt, which was over an inch, was given in decimal and every 8 bolts the cement crew was an inch short, over half the bolts were out of tolerance. That delay was 3 weeks.
But my favorite was the assembly for an auger system to move grain into the top of the bin. A belt conveyer is cheaper and what this particular GC was familiar with but the site wanted a giant screw - which allows for distances and angles a belt can't efficiently handle. The auger comes from a place that specially builds them - it arrived and was without error. The superstructure to allow power and humans access to the top of the bin was fabricated by a regional welding shop. It is just a bunch of triangles welded to gather - like a cell tower or crane boom. And they just got their imperial measurements wrong - it was almost 10 feet short when we dry assembled it on the ground. That cost real real money to sort out, and they had a giant empty bin sitting there the whole time it was fixed. The bin was originally to cost 1.2 million.
posted by zenon at 12:42 PM on November 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
I worked in construction - building giant steel bins to store food. Everything was in imperial, except the crew of assembling the thing - we were metric. These things cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, were 6 stories tall and many could store over a million bushels of grain.
There were many parts - the cement pad the bin sat on needed to have both anchor bolts deeply embedded and channels for air to be forced into the bin floor. The bin itself had a roof structure that required a crane to assist in assembly, and some mechanism to dump grain into the top, and all of these required a reasonable level of precision.
Our regular sized crane cost about 5 grand a day to have on site, and I witnessed the crane showing up only to then discover than someone could do the math for measuring the necessary operating distance of the base of crane and it's outriggers, measured in feet, minus the size of the bin aprons, measured in inches. Less than 6 inches cost a whole day, the daily crane fee, plus the higher cost of a larger crane and the additional time in prepping an alternative site for the larger machine to operate.
The anchors needed to be around a meter apart around the permitter of the bin, generally about 12-18 inches from the edge of the pad. A big pizza pie problem but all the math is written down and everything is in the spec. The cement crew still got it wrong because the width of the bolt, which was over an inch, was given in decimal and every 8 bolts the cement crew was an inch short, over half the bolts were out of tolerance. That delay was 3 weeks.
But my favorite was the assembly for an auger system to move grain into the top of the bin. A belt conveyer is cheaper and what this particular GC was familiar with but the site wanted a giant screw - which allows for distances and angles a belt can't efficiently handle. The auger comes from a place that specially builds them - it arrived and was without error. The superstructure to allow power and humans access to the top of the bin was fabricated by a regional welding shop. It is just a bunch of triangles welded to gather - like a cell tower or crane boom. And they just got their imperial measurements wrong - it was almost 10 feet short when we dry assembled it on the ground. That cost real real money to sort out, and they had a giant empty bin sitting there the whole time it was fixed. The bin was originally to cost 1.2 million.
posted by zenon at 12:42 PM on November 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
duplicate comment - I hit enter. ( or just too many words)
posted by zenon at 12:50 PM on November 9, 2023
posted by zenon at 12:50 PM on November 9, 2023
I used to work in a US architecture firm, designing golf courses. We were working on a course in Chile, so we were using metric, but the irrigation consultant was US-based. I sent him the drawing and he sent back the irrigation layout as a separate file. I spent a while trying to match it to the base drawing, but it was slightly off, I'd get it to match on one end, and it would be wrong on the other. It's one of those things that you know are wrong but it's hard to figure out why and where and how.
Eventually, I measured the distances between some landmarks and figured it out: he had scaled the metric drawing to inches using a factor of 2.5, instead of 2.54. I called him to complain and he didn't seem to understand what his error had been.
posted by signal at 2:26 PM on November 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
Eventually, I measured the distances between some landmarks and figured it out: he had scaled the metric drawing to inches using a factor of 2.5, instead of 2.54. I called him to complain and he didn't seem to understand what his error had been.
posted by signal at 2:26 PM on November 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
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