A dying empire led by bad people.
May 29, 2024 10:20 AM Subscribe
Young voters despairing over US politics "49% agreed to some extent that elections in the country don’t represent people like them; 51% agreed to some extent that the political system in the US “doesn’t work for people like me;” and 64% backed the statement that “America is in decline.” A whopping 65% agreed either strongly or somewhat that “nearly all politicians are corrupt, and make money from their political power” — only 7% disagreed."
Related: Young voters aren’t as liberal as you think "...narrowest Democratic tilt among this age group [18-to-29] since 2005 and continues a downward trend since 2019 .... only about one-third of those ages 18 to 29 identify as liberal ... On immigration, 48 percent of under-30 voters consider Biden more liberal than they are .. On transgender issues, 48 percent ... consider Biden more liberal ... On crime, 40 percent ... even on oil and gas exploration, 45 percent"
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:32 AM on May 29 [8 favorites]
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:32 AM on May 29 [8 favorites]
The despair and "don't bother to vote" disengagement is calculated to aid the corrupt.
It also being true is probably a big help to Putin et al's efforts.
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:36 AM on May 29 [16 favorites]
It also being true is probably a big help to Putin et al's efforts.
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:36 AM on May 29 [16 favorites]
Jesus.
No, it is not Putin and Tik-tok. Shit is really fucked right now, has been fucked for sometime, and no institutions have an interest in unfucking any of them. It’s pretty plain to see everywhere.
posted by Artw at 10:45 AM on May 29 [94 favorites]
No, it is not Putin and Tik-tok. Shit is really fucked right now, has been fucked for sometime, and no institutions have an interest in unfucking any of them. It’s pretty plain to see everywhere.
posted by Artw at 10:45 AM on May 29 [94 favorites]
This is very driven by COVID as well as economics:
The current economic pressures simply reinforce that alienation, IMO. Many kids are not alright.
posted by bonehead at 10:47 AM on May 29 [12 favorites]
The data also found the COVID-19 pandemic has left a lasting, bad taste in the mouths of young voters: 51% of those polled said they were happier before the COVID-19 pandemic, 77% said that the event changed the country for the worse, and 45% said they feel less connected to friends and acquaintances compared with five years ago.We're going to be dealing with the psychological aftershocks of the shutdowns for a long time, at least a decade in my view, if not longer. It was not a unifying pressure, but one that made too many people feel abandoned and alone, with officials and leaders who were working directly against what they wanted, or worse, taking advantage of the situation and of those who were worst off during the pandemic.
The current economic pressures simply reinforce that alienation, IMO. Many kids are not alright.
posted by bonehead at 10:47 AM on May 29 [12 favorites]
I think a lot of Gen X progressives are still actively voting, but are disillusioned all the same. This is because of the Democratic Party's continued belief that maybe just maybe bipartisanship isn't dead.
This means that only the most right center candidates generally win, when we'd need slates of fiery leftists with bold policy ideas to actually drum up any voter enthusiasm.
We just keep watching our party drift ever rightward.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:48 AM on May 29 [57 favorites]
This means that only the most right center candidates generally win, when we'd need slates of fiery leftists with bold policy ideas to actually drum up any voter enthusiasm.
We just keep watching our party drift ever rightward.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:48 AM on May 29 [57 favorites]
Am I not seeing the whole article, or does it never once mention that young people are watching US weapons kill children in Gaza on TikTok every day?
posted by tofu_crouton at 10:53 AM on May 29 [50 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 10:53 AM on May 29 [50 favorites]
There's no way to argue rationally with people who are convinced Biden's lack of popularity is due to Russian interference. To me, it's the democratic equivalent of believing Trump won the election.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:55 AM on May 29 [52 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:55 AM on May 29 [52 favorites]
There's no way to argue rationally with people who are convinced Biden's lack of popularity is due to Russian interference.
"Everything bad is solely because Putin/Trump" is like the liberal version of right-wingers constant screeching about the Woke Mind Virus or whatever. I promise you all that young people feel alienated from politics for a complex web of extremely real reasons and Putin does not enter in to it.
posted by windbox at 11:00 AM on May 29 [48 favorites]
"Everything bad is solely because Putin/Trump" is like the liberal version of right-wingers constant screeching about the Woke Mind Virus or whatever. I promise you all that young people feel alienated from politics for a complex web of extremely real reasons and Putin does not enter in to it.
posted by windbox at 11:00 AM on May 29 [48 favorites]
Yup.
posted by Artw at 11:02 AM on May 29 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:02 AM on May 29 [3 favorites]
There's no way to argue rationally with people who are convinced Biden's lack of popularity is due to Russian interference.
See also: Hillary/2016 (gods forbid you should dip your toe into that cesspool, but I still see it come up on occasion...)
posted by Pedantzilla at 11:15 AM on May 29 [6 favorites]
See also: Hillary/2016 (gods forbid you should dip your toe into that cesspool, but I still see it come up on occasion...)
posted by Pedantzilla at 11:15 AM on May 29 [6 favorites]
That "America is going downhill" question needs a lot of qualifiers. I don't think it's going down hill because gay people can marry. I think its going down hill because Donald Trump and his Nazi friends aren't locked up in Guantanamo.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 11:22 AM on May 29 [38 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 11:22 AM on May 29 [38 favorites]
More than half of the US thinks their economy is shrinking and in a recession.
posted by Brian B. at 11:23 AM on May 29 [5 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 11:23 AM on May 29 [5 favorites]
The youth vote is the “Lucy holding the football” of Presidential election politics, and the Dems will be better off just resigning themselves to the fact that they will almost always vote for whomever the Nader of the current cycle is.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 11:24 AM on May 29 [1 favorite]
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 11:24 AM on May 29 [1 favorite]
The ultimate point here, which is that chaos agents benefit from low trust, is important. Like, whether the people polled here stay home (likely) or go and vote for Trump or RFK (not unlikely, let's say), Trump benefits, America loses.
The system really is broken. Young people really are fucked. The US really is in decline on the world stage. Like, "The Economy" is great but the benefits aren't felt equally, it's not just a media trick.
That the Democrats can't seem to find a message that can preserve the American Experiment for four more years is a huge problem, and the fact that everyone at every level of government is either older than fucking Mumm-Ra or a Federalist Society goblin really doesn't help, either.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:28 AM on May 29 [57 favorites]
The system really is broken. Young people really are fucked. The US really is in decline on the world stage. Like, "The Economy" is great but the benefits aren't felt equally, it's not just a media trick.
That the Democrats can't seem to find a message that can preserve the American Experiment for four more years is a huge problem, and the fact that everyone at every level of government is either older than fucking Mumm-Ra or a Federalist Society goblin really doesn't help, either.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:28 AM on May 29 [57 favorites]
The point is that this is the Republican/Russian playbook. Ask these "younger people" who they blame, and if they understand the reasons that the "system is broken?" Billionaires bought the Republicans, and set things up for them entirely.
These types of polls are completely too simplistic.
posted by pthomas745 at 11:31 AM on May 29 [8 favorites]
These types of polls are completely too simplistic.
posted by pthomas745 at 11:31 AM on May 29 [8 favorites]
More than half of the US thinks their economy is shrinking and in a recession.
Jesus if a single article ever encapsulated how fucking stupid and out of touch the media and those in power are on these issues:
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:34 AM on May 29 [74 favorites]
Jesus if a single article ever encapsulated how fucking stupid and out of touch the media and those in power are on these issues:
More than half of Americans — 56% — mistakenly believe the U.S. is currently in a recession...All those morons basing their views of the economy on the single most important thing affecting their daily lives! Don't they know that it's not relevant to this bullshit statistic!
Why it matters: The economy is actually in good shape and there's no recession...
The big picture: It looks like inflation and the higher cost of living — indicators not typically part of the recession call by the NBER — could be shaping Americans' views.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:34 AM on May 29 [74 favorites]
Pretty much everyone is in fear of losing their jobs right now and even people with solid jobs are having trouble making ends meet. Housing is ruinously expensive and many are just getting straight up priced out of it. All the things that make the line go up make these things worse. It’s real bad.
posted by Artw at 11:42 AM on May 29 [38 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:42 AM on May 29 [38 favorites]
I’d say Putin, China, Saudi, etc. do enter into it, given that news consumption by youth is almost completely via social media. We know about these continuing propaganda efforts, and all state powers do it. And it’s made physical in theatres of war and protest.
I agree that Biden should “trumpet” (tfg ruins so many words) success and drum up appropriate outrage at the same time. You have to have something to offer for those outrages though, something great and new.
The climate corps, tfg’s threat to democracy, abortion rights, student loans… all kind of standard, loans probably above standard. Ukraine and Palestine i think balance out. Not any below standard moves i can recall.
Bigger deals could be attacking the supreme court, attacking all the questions of freedom (abortion, books), attacking online privacy, guns, policing, money in politics and the failures of elections, attacking transportation as it relates to housing and land use. Big things.
Republicans have: armed and guarded borders, book bans, free money for private school, war on woke, war on christmas - all big deals.
It does seem easier to do when you restrict your appeal the way Repubs do, but for Dems it’s not that hard to be creative enough to spark interest, just have to put it out there.
posted by mr ruby violet at 11:43 AM on May 29 [10 favorites]
I agree that Biden should “trumpet” (tfg ruins so many words) success and drum up appropriate outrage at the same time. You have to have something to offer for those outrages though, something great and new.
The climate corps, tfg’s threat to democracy, abortion rights, student loans… all kind of standard, loans probably above standard. Ukraine and Palestine i think balance out. Not any below standard moves i can recall.
Bigger deals could be attacking the supreme court, attacking all the questions of freedom (abortion, books), attacking online privacy, guns, policing, money in politics and the failures of elections, attacking transportation as it relates to housing and land use. Big things.
Republicans have: armed and guarded borders, book bans, free money for private school, war on woke, war on christmas - all big deals.
It does seem easier to do when you restrict your appeal the way Repubs do, but for Dems it’s not that hard to be creative enough to spark interest, just have to put it out there.
posted by mr ruby violet at 11:43 AM on May 29 [10 favorites]
We just keep watching our party drift ever rightward.
Assuming you're talking about the Democratic party, on what dimensions? On crime, trade policy, fiscal responsibility vs social spending, targeted government support for industries, gay/trans rights, and minimum wage, among many other issues, the party has moved steadily to the left. It's particularly stark when you consider the Clinton vs Biden administrations, on both social and economic issues, but even Obama to Biden has been a clear shift to the left. Political scientists agree.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:46 AM on May 29 [41 favorites]
Assuming you're talking about the Democratic party, on what dimensions? On crime, trade policy, fiscal responsibility vs social spending, targeted government support for industries, gay/trans rights, and minimum wage, among many other issues, the party has moved steadily to the left. It's particularly stark when you consider the Clinton vs Biden administrations, on both social and economic issues, but even Obama to Biden has been a clear shift to the left. Political scientists agree.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:46 AM on May 29 [41 favorites]
"Ukraine and Palestine i think balance out."
you may be the only person who thinks that... i doubt any of the younger gens believe that. I'm genuinely curious what your logic is in saying that.
posted by kokaku at 11:47 AM on May 29 [6 favorites]
you may be the only person who thinks that... i doubt any of the younger gens believe that. I'm genuinely curious what your logic is in saying that.
posted by kokaku at 11:47 AM on May 29 [6 favorites]
The big picture: It looks like inflation and the higher cost of living — indicators not typically part of the recession call by the NBER — could be shaping Americans' views.
I've lost track of the number of "WHY are STUPID AMERICANS convinced that THE ECONOMY IS BAD" articles lately, and it's like, I live in a household where we have two white collar jobs and a small mortgage and our budget is extremely tight now because everything costs a million dollars. I look back on the things we could afford a few years ago, like a couple of restaurant meals every month or shopping at somewhere other than Trader Joe's and buying a few fun things instead of the basics and they're a forgotten dream. I consume so much less than I used to and I still don't have any money. If I were starting out my career right now, I would have to live in a cardboard box. Everything I cared about and enjoyed has been destroyed by high rents, so even if I could afford it most of the things I used to like doing don't exist anymore.
And yet the democrats can't come up with anything better than "don't you understand the economy is great you idiot".
The other democratic message is pretty much "vote affirmatively for us and our hellfire missiles because otherwise Trump will put you in a camp", and that frankly doesn't resonate with anyone I actually know, especially young people.
posted by Frowner at 11:47 AM on May 29 [78 favorites]
I've lost track of the number of "WHY are STUPID AMERICANS convinced that THE ECONOMY IS BAD" articles lately, and it's like, I live in a household where we have two white collar jobs and a small mortgage and our budget is extremely tight now because everything costs a million dollars. I look back on the things we could afford a few years ago, like a couple of restaurant meals every month or shopping at somewhere other than Trader Joe's and buying a few fun things instead of the basics and they're a forgotten dream. I consume so much less than I used to and I still don't have any money. If I were starting out my career right now, I would have to live in a cardboard box. Everything I cared about and enjoyed has been destroyed by high rents, so even if I could afford it most of the things I used to like doing don't exist anymore.
And yet the democrats can't come up with anything better than "don't you understand the economy is great you idiot".
The other democratic message is pretty much "vote affirmatively for us and our hellfire missiles because otherwise Trump will put you in a camp", and that frankly doesn't resonate with anyone I actually know, especially young people.
posted by Frowner at 11:47 AM on May 29 [78 favorites]
The other democratic message is pretty much "vote affirmatively for us and our hellfire missiles because otherwise Trump will put you in a camp", and that frankly doesn't resonate with anyone I actually know, especially young people.
It’s basically voter suppression and gloating rather than an attempt at persuading people to vote at this point.
posted by Artw at 11:50 AM on May 29 [10 favorites]
It’s basically voter suppression and gloating rather than an attempt at persuading people to vote at this point.
posted by Artw at 11:50 AM on May 29 [10 favorites]
I’d say Putin, China, Saudi, etc. do enter into it,
I’d say that’s entering into wishful thinking.
posted by Artw at 11:51 AM on May 29 [9 favorites]
I’d say that’s entering into wishful thinking.
posted by Artw at 11:51 AM on May 29 [9 favorites]
All politicians are corrupt given that they're required to take money from special interests to get elected. That does not, however, makes them equivalent.
The system is corrupt, we need to work with those who will make it less evil.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 11:54 AM on May 29 [5 favorites]
The system is corrupt, we need to work with those who will make it less evil.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 11:54 AM on May 29 [5 favorites]
Related: Young voters aren’t as liberal as you think
Ah, Ruy Texeira, the supposed liberal who's so worried about The Youths Today that he joined a far-right, bigoted, fascist think tank exclusively so that he can tell centrists that the transgenders are coming to make their children pee in litter boxes.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:55 AM on May 29 [27 favorites]
Ah, Ruy Texeira, the supposed liberal who's so worried about The Youths Today that he joined a far-right, bigoted, fascist think tank exclusively so that he can tell centrists that the transgenders are coming to make their children pee in litter boxes.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:55 AM on May 29 [27 favorites]
But Frowner, have you seen these aggregate GDP stats? Oh, your rent is high? What does that matter when the Dow Jones Industrial Average is hitting record highs? Rejoice in how great things are going!
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:55 AM on May 29 [9 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:55 AM on May 29 [9 favorites]
I think climate change also plays heavily into this for young people. We have spent our entire lives watching politicians absolutely shit the bed when it comes to averting catastrophe, and now there is no reasonable expectation of a stable human future on this planet. So what the fuck.
I still vote, and advocate for voting, as a harm reduction measure. But I have very few illusions about the capacity of modern politics to actually have a meaningful impact on the most existentially pressing issue of our time.
Like, I want Biden to win, but the guy is pumping more oil than Trump did. How can we expect young people to get invested in anything under these conditions?
posted by mrjohnmuller at 11:59 AM on May 29 [47 favorites]
I still vote, and advocate for voting, as a harm reduction measure. But I have very few illusions about the capacity of modern politics to actually have a meaningful impact on the most existentially pressing issue of our time.
Like, I want Biden to win, but the guy is pumping more oil than Trump did. How can we expect young people to get invested in anything under these conditions?
posted by mrjohnmuller at 11:59 AM on May 29 [47 favorites]
All the “good” economic news is like “AI is going to revolutionize the economy and put you out of a job!”
posted by Artw at 11:59 AM on May 29 [17 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:59 AM on May 29 [17 favorites]
On crime, trade policy, fiscal responsibility vs social spending, targeted government support for industries, gay/trans rights, and minimum wage, among many other issues, the party has moved steadily to the left.
All of those things are true, but can't you see that they're not enough? Especially when Republicans are outright banning abortion, criminalizing trans people, and actively rolling back progress on environmental issues. Gregg Abbot fucking pardoned a man guilty of murdering a black lives matter activist.
It's great that the Democratic party of today is more liberal than they were in the 1990s, but Republicans are fucking crazy and Democrats don't seem to be doing anything about it.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 11:59 AM on May 29 [23 favorites]
All of those things are true, but can't you see that they're not enough? Especially when Republicans are outright banning abortion, criminalizing trans people, and actively rolling back progress on environmental issues. Gregg Abbot fucking pardoned a man guilty of murdering a black lives matter activist.
It's great that the Democratic party of today is more liberal than they were in the 1990s, but Republicans are fucking crazy and Democrats don't seem to be doing anything about it.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 11:59 AM on May 29 [23 favorites]
I agree that Biden should “trumpet” (tfg ruins so many words) success and drum up appropriate outrage at the same time. You have to have something to offer for those outrages though, something great and new.
Cory Doctorow (I know, get the old stock Mefi jokes over with)'s most recent post has an an interesting take on this, pointing to Matt Stoller as well:
Biden's antitrust enforcers have gone after price-fixing in oil, food and rent – the three largest sources of voter cost-of-living concern. They've done more on these three kinds of crime than all of their predecessors over the past forty years, combined. And yet, Stoller finds example after example of White House press secretaries being lobbed softballs by the press and refusing to even try to swing at them. When asked about any of this stuff, the White House demurs, refusing to comment.
[...]
Why doesn't the Biden admin want to talk about this very small number of very good things it's doing? To understand that, you have to understand the hollowness of "centrist" politics as practiced in the Democratic Party.
The Democrats, like all political parties, are a coalition. Now, there are lots of ways to keep a coalition together. Parties who detest one another can stay in coalition provided that each partner is getting something they want out of it – even if one partner is bitterly unhappy about everything else happening in the coalition. That's the present-day Democratic approach: arrest students, bomb Gaza, but promise to do something about abortion and a few other issues while gesturing with real and justified alarm at Trump's open fascism, and hope that the party's left turns out at the polls this fall.
Or, in short, there's good things going on which would be more significant in a 'normal' election (i.e. not rightly overshadowed by genocide); but those good things are unpopular with the 'business as usual' wing & there's not appetite for making too loud of a case for those good things.
posted by CrystalDave at 12:06 PM on May 29 [20 favorites]
Cory Doctorow (I know, get the old stock Mefi jokes over with)'s most recent post has an an interesting take on this, pointing to Matt Stoller as well:
Biden's antitrust enforcers have gone after price-fixing in oil, food and rent – the three largest sources of voter cost-of-living concern. They've done more on these three kinds of crime than all of their predecessors over the past forty years, combined. And yet, Stoller finds example after example of White House press secretaries being lobbed softballs by the press and refusing to even try to swing at them. When asked about any of this stuff, the White House demurs, refusing to comment.
[...]
Why doesn't the Biden admin want to talk about this very small number of very good things it's doing? To understand that, you have to understand the hollowness of "centrist" politics as practiced in the Democratic Party.
The Democrats, like all political parties, are a coalition. Now, there are lots of ways to keep a coalition together. Parties who detest one another can stay in coalition provided that each partner is getting something they want out of it – even if one partner is bitterly unhappy about everything else happening in the coalition. That's the present-day Democratic approach: arrest students, bomb Gaza, but promise to do something about abortion and a few other issues while gesturing with real and justified alarm at Trump's open fascism, and hope that the party's left turns out at the polls this fall.
Or, in short, there's good things going on which would be more significant in a 'normal' election (i.e. not rightly overshadowed by genocide); but those good things are unpopular with the 'business as usual' wing & there's not appetite for making too loud of a case for those good things.
posted by CrystalDave at 12:06 PM on May 29 [20 favorites]
We're not even past the conventions, so the Dems haven't gone as far right as they will as the campaign goes on. Do not be surprised if they choose to do something wildly stupid and antagonistic towards marginalized voters they think they can lose, like sign on to a ban on gender transition care for minors.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:06 PM on May 29 [21 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:06 PM on May 29 [21 favorites]
One thing that could reduce the power of fucking crazy Republicans is getting more Democrats elected. Generally, I think the best way to do that is to take popular positions, which in many cases means more centrism. Others claim that you can motivate additional participation by moving to the left, and than leadership can change minds. This is an old argument and no one's going to be convinced here, but I did want to mention that it is in fact an argument.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:09 PM on May 29 [4 favorites]
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:09 PM on May 29 [4 favorites]
I am both dreading and expecting a full TERF pivot from them, to match other pseudo-liberal institutions.
posted by Artw at 12:10 PM on May 29 [15 favorites]
posted by Artw at 12:10 PM on May 29 [15 favorites]
Young voters aren’t as liberal as you think
Anecdotally, I think this is pretty true; I returned to college and encountered a kid in a TRUMP 2024 t-shirt and a teacher mentioned that while he was at a protest against Israel's violence in Gaza he got screamed at by a kid that (probably unbeknownst to the kid) was in his class; have a couple student friends whose Instagrams flip back and forth between Jesus Loves You and Turning Point USA bullshit, and my own stepson will say he's a Democrat for workers-union reasons but when he wants to talk politics it's all right-wing-but-not-obviously-right-wing stuff that he learned from TikTok and "isn't sure he can vote for Biden".
But, they've been saying the "old conservatives are dying off" thing since I started voting in the early 90s, where do they think today's "old conservatives" come from?
posted by AzraelBrown at 12:12 PM on May 29 [12 favorites]
Anecdotally, I think this is pretty true; I returned to college and encountered a kid in a TRUMP 2024 t-shirt and a teacher mentioned that while he was at a protest against Israel's violence in Gaza he got screamed at by a kid that (probably unbeknownst to the kid) was in his class; have a couple student friends whose Instagrams flip back and forth between Jesus Loves You and Turning Point USA bullshit, and my own stepson will say he's a Democrat for workers-union reasons but when he wants to talk politics it's all right-wing-but-not-obviously-right-wing stuff that he learned from TikTok and "isn't sure he can vote for Biden".
But, they've been saying the "old conservatives are dying off" thing since I started voting in the early 90s, where do they think today's "old conservatives" come from?
posted by AzraelBrown at 12:12 PM on May 29 [12 favorites]
Mr.Know-it-some, what particular policies do you see Democrats as too far left on? What specific areas should they be pivoting to the centre on? The only things I can think of amount to capitulating to Republicans. Roll back debt relief? Gay marriage? Tax corporations less? Roll back environmental protections? Make abortion _more_ illegal? Where exactly is this centre ground with all these voters who aren't fully on board with the Republican platform? What do you think is scaring them off?
And cosigning Glegrinof the Pig-Man that you've generally been the spokesperson for some pretty retrograde attitudes here on metafilter.
posted by sagc at 12:13 PM on May 29 [6 favorites]
And cosigning Glegrinof the Pig-Man that you've generally been the spokesperson for some pretty retrograde attitudes here on metafilter.
posted by sagc at 12:13 PM on May 29 [6 favorites]
This has also been true for decades. Don't blame youth disengagement for entrenched, systematic non-representation. Gun-control, civil rights, gay rights, gay rights, and women's rights have been at least near median among voters since the 90s.
posted by es_de_bah at 12:14 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
posted by es_de_bah at 12:14 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
This is very driven by COVID as well as economics: [...] We're going to be dealing with the psychological aftershocks of the shutdowns for a long time
And not just the psychological aftershocks of the shutdowns, but the way the pandemic rapidly accelerated the enshittification of everything. It's not just QR codes instead of menus at restaurants, or people being antagonistic about masking, or service workers being treated worse than ever. Or all the antivax assholes on parade. It's skyrocketing prices and extra fees in the name of "in these trying times" and "inflation (an act of god, nothing to do about it)."
Maybe I (a young voter) am alone in this naiveté but I really thought we could emerge from the pandemic with better labor policies, better ventilation in public spaces, universal paid sick leave, and maybe even a lil transfer of wealth to younger & working class people from the billionaire class. And instead, nearly the polar opposite has happened in each of these cases. It's so demoralizing.
posted by knotty knots at 12:14 PM on May 29 [66 favorites]
And not just the psychological aftershocks of the shutdowns, but the way the pandemic rapidly accelerated the enshittification of everything. It's not just QR codes instead of menus at restaurants, or people being antagonistic about masking, or service workers being treated worse than ever. Or all the antivax assholes on parade. It's skyrocketing prices and extra fees in the name of "in these trying times" and "inflation (an act of god, nothing to do about it)."
Maybe I (a young voter) am alone in this naiveté but I really thought we could emerge from the pandemic with better labor policies, better ventilation in public spaces, universal paid sick leave, and maybe even a lil transfer of wealth to younger & working class people from the billionaire class. And instead, nearly the polar opposite has happened in each of these cases. It's so demoralizing.
posted by knotty knots at 12:14 PM on May 29 [66 favorites]
Like, we get it, some people here just really want to put the existence of LGBTQ people to a vote, but maybe consider that letting the GOP genocide groups because you can't get a 50.1 percent majority is evil.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:15 PM on May 29 [14 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:15 PM on May 29 [14 favorites]
"Do you think the end of the United States would be a net positive or net negative for the world as a whole?", should be asked of Millennial and GenZ voters.
I would imagine that a lot of people shaped by the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, knowing of the various plots that destabilized countries from Iran to Argentina, seeing the US bully and veto democratic efforts at the UN, and our propensity for propping up various convenient assholes world wide while letting our own country rot out from under us is having a generally corrosive effect on loving the country and caring about its government.
posted by Slackermagee at 12:16 PM on May 29 [10 favorites]
I would imagine that a lot of people shaped by the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, knowing of the various plots that destabilized countries from Iran to Argentina, seeing the US bully and veto democratic efforts at the UN, and our propensity for propping up various convenient assholes world wide while letting our own country rot out from under us is having a generally corrosive effect on loving the country and caring about its government.
posted by Slackermagee at 12:16 PM on May 29 [10 favorites]
I was a young voter once. Now I'm an old voter. This shit never changes. I used to look at voting through a lens of hope. Now I look at it as harm reduction. "Both sides are the same" is complete bullshit. You think both sides are the same, then watch what happen if Trump wins. The country will become a christian fascist state, LGBTQ people will not be safe anywhere. Women will lose even more rights. Biden has made some huge strides on climate and a lot more needs to be done, and all that will be reversed if Trump wins. Inflation will be even worse with across the board tariffs. What's happening in Palestine is horrific, but do you think for a second it wouldn't be far fucking worse under Trump? He'd likely be sending US troops in. When Iran fired the missile barrage, Trump would probably have had US bombers over Tehran within a couple of hours. Democratic voters skipped a lot of key elections and Republican voters did not. That meant the GOP was able to elect the crazies, then Dems were able to win elections only long enough to clean up the mess, then we get the "oh they aren't giving us anything to vote for" bullshit, and then crazier GOPers get elected. I'm sure a lot of you are going to tell me to fuck off and I do not fucking care. I've been watching this bullshit go on for way too long with predictable consequences. (The image of Susan Sarandon protesting after the fall of Roe, after her anti-Hillary rants, encapsulates this perfectly.) Fuck around and find out.
posted by azpenguin at 12:17 PM on May 29 [57 favorites]
posted by azpenguin at 12:17 PM on May 29 [57 favorites]
they will almost always vote for whomever the Nader of the current cycle is
That’s not once been literally true, has it?
posted by atoxyl at 12:19 PM on May 29 [15 favorites]
That’s not once been literally true, has it?
posted by atoxyl at 12:19 PM on May 29 [15 favorites]
we'd need slates of fiery leftists with bold policy ideas to actually drum up any voter enthusiasm.
Those candidates aren't grown in vats, you know. If you want to see them, then get in gear and try to run for something.
posted by aramaic at 12:20 PM on May 29 [11 favorites]
Those candidates aren't grown in vats, you know. If you want to see them, then get in gear and try to run for something.
posted by aramaic at 12:20 PM on May 29 [11 favorites]
But, they've been saying the "old conservatives are dying off" thing since I started voting in the early 90s, where do they think today's "old conservatives" come from?
People have sort of internalized the debunking of “everyone gets conservative as they get older” and I think that’s mostly correct - people get a little more conservative but there are real, persistent differences between cohorts. People have not necessarily followed that through to the conclusion that there’s no reason each younger cohort has to end up more liberal than the one before.
posted by atoxyl at 12:22 PM on May 29 [4 favorites]
People have sort of internalized the debunking of “everyone gets conservative as they get older” and I think that’s mostly correct - people get a little more conservative but there are real, persistent differences between cohorts. People have not necessarily followed that through to the conclusion that there’s no reason each younger cohort has to end up more liberal than the one before.
posted by atoxyl at 12:22 PM on May 29 [4 favorites]
I'm Canadian, so I'm not sure how much my perspective applies to the US perspective.
I think the issue is that Gen Z and Millennials had to shut down or alter their careers for Gen X and the Boomers during COVID. I've been claiming that the government economic policies have been persistently benefiting the boomers at the expense of the younger generations, when the younger generations are more likely to look like labor rather than management. Whereas boomers are more likely to look like management than labor.
The government pulls back from cheap education, the boomers save on their taxes while the younger generations have to deal with individualized funding of education.
Municipal government persistently caters to the boomers showing up to city halls and allowing them to restrict zoning. So the home owning boomers keep their home prices increasing at the expense of Gen Z and Millennials who now have more expensive homes.
Gen Z and Millennials pull back on having children, so the domestic labor supply shortages from below-replacement fertility should have led to wage corrections and price corrections that would have benefited Gen Z. The boomers get threatened that housing demand drops and that their consumer base for their local business drops, so they use immigration to make up labor supply shortfalls.
COVID policies were a massive life-saving benefit for the boomers, but Gen Z and Millennials have to carry the debt that was taken on by COVID. The boomers didn't bear an uneven burden even though they benefited much more greatly from COVID isolation than Gen Z and Millennials did.
Gen X and Millennials with abusive parents could afford to escape and rent a one bedroom apartment. Gen X and Millennials wanting to be more sexually frivolous could afford to do that because they could afford their own spaces. Gen Z can't because home prices rose far faster than wages. So they're stuck living with their parents, which makes it awkward bringing partners home.
posted by DetriusXii at 12:25 PM on May 29 [17 favorites]
I think the issue is that Gen Z and Millennials had to shut down or alter their careers for Gen X and the Boomers during COVID. I've been claiming that the government economic policies have been persistently benefiting the boomers at the expense of the younger generations, when the younger generations are more likely to look like labor rather than management. Whereas boomers are more likely to look like management than labor.
The government pulls back from cheap education, the boomers save on their taxes while the younger generations have to deal with individualized funding of education.
Municipal government persistently caters to the boomers showing up to city halls and allowing them to restrict zoning. So the home owning boomers keep their home prices increasing at the expense of Gen Z and Millennials who now have more expensive homes.
Gen Z and Millennials pull back on having children, so the domestic labor supply shortages from below-replacement fertility should have led to wage corrections and price corrections that would have benefited Gen Z. The boomers get threatened that housing demand drops and that their consumer base for their local business drops, so they use immigration to make up labor supply shortfalls.
COVID policies were a massive life-saving benefit for the boomers, but Gen Z and Millennials have to carry the debt that was taken on by COVID. The boomers didn't bear an uneven burden even though they benefited much more greatly from COVID isolation than Gen Z and Millennials did.
Gen X and Millennials with abusive parents could afford to escape and rent a one bedroom apartment. Gen X and Millennials wanting to be more sexually frivolous could afford to do that because they could afford their own spaces. Gen Z can't because home prices rose far faster than wages. So they're stuck living with their parents, which makes it awkward bringing partners home.
posted by DetriusXii at 12:25 PM on May 29 [17 favorites]
Mod note: One deleted. Please don't use this thread to start a fight, if you think someone in the site is being transphobic, please contact us to best address this,
posted by loup (staff) at 12:25 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 12:25 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
Rick Perlstein, The American Prospect: My Political Depression Problem—and Ours
No, the injury grinding me down is built of much smaller differences. It comes from encounters with colleagues and comrades on the left. What we disagree on, as you might have guessed, is endorsing a Democratic president who shares responsibility for the massacre of tens of thousands of innocents, in a criminal war that another country’s quite fascist leader seems to be pursuing, not merely out of fanatical bloodlust and racism but in order to stay in power and perhaps to avoid prison.posted by tonycpsu at 12:27 PM on May 29 [19 favorites]
It’s happening, no surprise, on the social media platform formerly known as Twitter, where I’ve been drafted as an apologist for “Genocide Joe” for arguing why the alternative is so much worse.
People who read me here won’t be particularly surprised to learn that I agree with these interlocutors that the best word the English language gives us to describe what the IDF is doing to the population trapped within Gaza is, indeed, “genocide.” And while I think the version of the argument that holds that Joe Biden himself is committing genocide is a grievous violation of reason, I still believe that, considering the tools at his disposal to stop it, Biden’s moral culpability for the slaughter is only a few notches below that.
So, saying you should vote for him anyway is a hard argument to make. Maybe I should be gentler on myself that I’ve not managed to persuade the literally thousands of people on the left raining abuse down upon me for making it. All the same, my failure is gutting me worse than anything that has happened to me before in my career.
What it comes down to, I guess, is this. If I of all people can’t convince people on the left to fight right-wing authoritarians who consider them veritable Untermenschen, then what the hell have I been wasting half my life on this work for?
The youth vote is the “Lucy holding the football” of Presidential election politics,
I don't think it is the fault of young people if the Democratic party is incapable of winning their votes. This is literally "no, the children are wrong."
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:27 PM on May 29 [19 favorites]
I don't think it is the fault of young people if the Democratic party is incapable of winning their votes. This is literally "no, the children are wrong."
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:27 PM on May 29 [19 favorites]
Those candidates aren't grown in vats, you know. If you want to see them, then get in gear and try to run for something.
They kind of are, though, Powerful people and organizations spend a lot of money getting the people they want elected. There are plenty of low level political figures to choose from. A glut of entryist leftists isn't going to make the DNC or corporate donors decide they need to spend money to get them elected.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:30 PM on May 29 [9 favorites]
They kind of are, though, Powerful people and organizations spend a lot of money getting the people they want elected. There are plenty of low level political figures to choose from. A glut of entryist leftists isn't going to make the DNC or corporate donors decide they need to spend money to get them elected.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:30 PM on May 29 [9 favorites]
Those candidates aren't grown in vats, you know. If you want to see them, then get in gear and try to run for something.
Pelosi et al. prefer to support anti-abortion corrupt officials than to support those to the left.
posted by armacy at 12:31 PM on May 29 [21 favorites]
Pelosi et al. prefer to support anti-abortion corrupt officials than to support those to the left.
posted by armacy at 12:31 PM on May 29 [21 favorites]
Re Rick Perlstein: the idea that the only/best way to fight for a better future is by convincing people to vote for someone who "is only a couple steps less accountable" than the actual perpetrators of a genocide - according to his supporters - might be why people seem to have trouble mustering much enthusiasm.
To say that failing to convince someone to vote for Biden is equivalent to failing to " convince people on the left to fight right-wing authoritarians" is also excluding a pretty large middle, isn't it?
posted by sagc at 12:33 PM on May 29 [12 favorites]
To say that failing to convince someone to vote for Biden is equivalent to failing to " convince people on the left to fight right-wing authoritarians" is also excluding a pretty large middle, isn't it?
posted by sagc at 12:33 PM on May 29 [12 favorites]
I'm less than 10 years from retirement and I feel the same way as the young people being discussed here. I think it's likely that climate gets worse, the dollar collapses, unrest worldwide ... but there's a tactical battle in the US and it's called "pick the Republican or Democrat" in November. Obviously not instead of activism, pushing for third parties, etc. But if Trump gets into office, any sort of incremental or major progress is going to be impossible, and in 4 years we may get to deal with another Overton move to the right. If you know young people who don't plan to vote, please talk to them about the likely effects of staying home or leaving the top box blank. Having a functioning president is like having power in your house. You can't just decide to fuck it because the power company service is bad, or they burn dirty coal.
What I hope is that there are some protests around the convention and some loud voices before and after the election. There are so many wild cards right now that "will people bother to vote" is not one we need.
All the discussions about replacing growth capitalism, or the more disruptive sorts of social and economic changes, need to keep going and occupy a lot of our thoughts as long as they go with actions, but we always seem to mix "practical now" with "amazing someday". We have the system we have and the people we have. I actually think centrist voters in swing states are going to be the key ones and they care about economy and immigration for the most part. So we need better messaging around what is being done to fix the economy *for regular people*.
posted by caviar2d2 at 12:34 PM on May 29 [20 favorites]
What I hope is that there are some protests around the convention and some loud voices before and after the election. There are so many wild cards right now that "will people bother to vote" is not one we need.
All the discussions about replacing growth capitalism, or the more disruptive sorts of social and economic changes, need to keep going and occupy a lot of our thoughts as long as they go with actions, but we always seem to mix "practical now" with "amazing someday". We have the system we have and the people we have. I actually think centrist voters in swing states are going to be the key ones and they care about economy and immigration for the most part. So we need better messaging around what is being done to fix the economy *for regular people*.
posted by caviar2d2 at 12:34 PM on May 29 [20 favorites]
Canada, America's imaginary socialist utopia that Dems say they will escape to whenever a Republican is in power, is no better either. A huge chunk of voters never bothered to show up when it was time to vote Doug Ford out of office for Ontario's health. Alberta elected into office a premier who doesn't believe in science and vaccinations and thinks trans kids are fake or dangerous. Housing is through the roof, food costs are through the roof (enough where we have dragged the CEOs of major grocery chains in front of Parliament demanding they explain themselves), wages are stagnant, our universal healthcare system is crumbling in favour of private possibilities, there has been a definite increase in unhoused people sleeping rough as well as tent cities popping up, and there is still a virus out there. I don't have high hopes for another Trudeau administration; we will get our milquetoast Proud Boy as our next PM.
People are fucking tired. They are angry (always at the wrong people if they skew right). They have lived through so many broken promises for anything. They are trying to keep their head above water.
Frankly, I don't blame young people for being disillusioned. I don't blame them for being upset at seeing real people being murdered on the news or on their social media feeds. I get why they are hopeless.
I mean, I'll vote for Biden because voting is a privilege but I ain't thrilled about it. It's exhausting for non-white people and non-straight people to keep having to wait their turns for better lives because they constantly have to be told that if they don't, the worst will happen. And while the most stringent Democrats may be right on that front, Democratic candidates aren't exactly going to bat for those rights either. It's always "just let us take care of this despot first and we'll get to you soon okay" ad infinitum.
posted by Kitteh at 12:36 PM on May 29 [25 favorites]
People are fucking tired. They are angry (always at the wrong people if they skew right). They have lived through so many broken promises for anything. They are trying to keep their head above water.
Frankly, I don't blame young people for being disillusioned. I don't blame them for being upset at seeing real people being murdered on the news or on their social media feeds. I get why they are hopeless.
I mean, I'll vote for Biden because voting is a privilege but I ain't thrilled about it. It's exhausting for non-white people and non-straight people to keep having to wait their turns for better lives because they constantly have to be told that if they don't, the worst will happen. And while the most stringent Democrats may be right on that front, Democratic candidates aren't exactly going to bat for those rights either. It's always "just let us take care of this despot first and we'll get to you soon okay" ad infinitum.
posted by Kitteh at 12:36 PM on May 29 [25 favorites]
"Both sides are the same" is complete bullshit.
I don't hear a lot of "both sides are the same" but I do hear a lot of "both sides are unacceptably bad" and I can't really say that it's incorrect given the magnitude of the issues we're currently facing.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 12:37 PM on May 29 [32 favorites]
I don't hear a lot of "both sides are the same" but I do hear a lot of "both sides are unacceptably bad" and I can't really say that it's incorrect given the magnitude of the issues we're currently facing.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 12:37 PM on May 29 [32 favorites]
Powerful people and organizations spend a lot of money getting the people they want elected. There are plenty of low level political figures to choose from. A glut of entryist leftists isn't going to make the DNC or corporate donors decide they need to spend money to get them elected.
Quite the contrary -- establishment Dems and their funders historically fight tooth-and-nail to curbstomp any progressive candidate who tries to make the grade. Just look at how Seattle Dems raged and howled and Kshama Sawant, and the more she gave the finger to their shenanigans the more they raged. See also the slimy hits and refusal of Party support that took Darcy Burner out of the congressional race here. At the national level, look at how Pelosi et.al treat AOC and the rest of the squad, who are undeniably popular winners in their districts (despite the constant bleating of the Party and their mouthpieces). Or the standing ovation the Senate Dems gave JoeFuckingBiden after he beat the actual Democratic candidate who primaried him!
posted by Pedantzilla at 12:37 PM on May 29 [18 favorites]
Quite the contrary -- establishment Dems and their funders historically fight tooth-and-nail to curbstomp any progressive candidate who tries to make the grade. Just look at how Seattle Dems raged and howled and Kshama Sawant, and the more she gave the finger to their shenanigans the more they raged. See also the slimy hits and refusal of Party support that took Darcy Burner out of the congressional race here. At the national level, look at how Pelosi et.al treat AOC and the rest of the squad, who are undeniably popular winners in their districts (despite the constant bleating of the Party and their mouthpieces). Or the standing ovation the Senate Dems gave JoeFuckingBiden after he beat the actual Democratic candidate who primaried him!
posted by Pedantzilla at 12:37 PM on May 29 [18 favorites]
The youth vote is the “Lucy holding the football” of Presidential election politics, and the Dems will be better off just resigning themselves to the fact that they will almost always vote for whomever the Nader of the current cycle is.
Just out of curiosity, do you know the actual percentage of young voters who voted for Nader (or any other 3rd party candidate), or have you merely been convinced by liberal dipshits that "The Youths" just hand their votes over to them en masse?
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:38 PM on May 29 [12 favorites]
Just out of curiosity, do you know the actual percentage of young voters who voted for Nader (or any other 3rd party candidate), or have you merely been convinced by liberal dipshits that "The Youths" just hand their votes over to them en masse?
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:38 PM on May 29 [12 favorites]
... I think its [America] going down hill because Donald Trump and his Nazi friends aren't locked up in Guantanamo.I think it's going downhill because Bush, Cheney, Obama, Biden, Trump, Clinton (Bill) aren't locked up in The Hague. But what do I know.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 1:22 PM on May 29
posted by symbioid at 12:41 PM on May 29 [10 favorites]
I bit my tongue, read the whole article, read the comments, just to make sure. But it's the same old, same old. Same pollbrained myopia. Same dem votescold tropes. "The evil countries are corrupting the youth!" "You think this is bad? Trump will be this times ten!" "Biden needs to work on his messaging." "Why are you so ungrateful?"
I'm assuming good faith, so I know it's not intended to irk me. Simply going to recite the serenity prayer and continue.
posted by jy4m at 12:41 PM on May 29 [11 favorites]
I'm assuming good faith, so I know it's not intended to irk me. Simply going to recite the serenity prayer and continue.
posted by jy4m at 12:41 PM on May 29 [11 favorites]
Gen X and Millennials with abusive parents could afford to escape and rent a one bedroom apartment. Gen X and Millennials wanting to be more sexually frivolous could afford to do that because they could afford their own spaces. Gen Z can't because home prices rose far faster than wages. So they're stuck living with their parents, which makes it awkward bringing partners home.
Speaking only from a North American perspective, I strongly believe that Gen X and earlier Millennials were the last cohort able to afford to move away from their parents to either an apartment in their hometown or decamping their hometowns entirely. I encounter a lot of frustration with younger folks about how they can't even have the experience of living on their own the first time. And even if you do get to move out, you end up having roommates in the multiple.
posted by Kitteh at 12:43 PM on May 29 [17 favorites]
Speaking only from a North American perspective, I strongly believe that Gen X and earlier Millennials were the last cohort able to afford to move away from their parents to either an apartment in their hometown or decamping their hometowns entirely. I encounter a lot of frustration with younger folks about how they can't even have the experience of living on their own the first time. And even if you do get to move out, you end up having roommates in the multiple.
posted by Kitteh at 12:43 PM on May 29 [17 favorites]
I've said this before, but all my life the Democratic ratchet has been, "vote for us, we're not as bad as the GOP", and then the GOP gets worse and the Democrats chase them either for their own financial advantage or out of idiocy and then we're once again at "vote for us, we're not as bad as the GOP".
If you had told me, just starting out my voting career by voting for Bill "let's destroy the welfare system and cut the floor from under the working class, by the way I'm also a rapist" Clinton, that normal, ordinary people I'd probably like if I met them socially would repeatedly hector me about how I need to vote for a literal genocidaire, I would have run off and moved to the woods. It's just, like, this is completely unacceptable. We're all being told all the time that we just HAVE to vote for a guy who is literally making it possible to chop up babies with hellfire missiles in order to guarantee the future of the republic. If there's anyone who cares left to look back at the United States in a hundred years, they're going to view us as Good Germans.
Back before this all began, I know I said on here that the Democratic ratchet was moving things so that we were voting for worse Democrats every time, and pretty soon we'd be voting for machine gunning immigrants at the border in order to keep out the "drop them in acid vats" candidate. But I really did not expect this.
There's always an option that the Democrats have that would get me firmly back on side, and that is to END American support for the genocide of Palestine and to END the censorship, violence and punishment used against those who protest that genocide. I have put up with a lot from the Democrats in my life and I might as well put up with most things as long as they're short of literally burning babies to death in their tents in the refugee camp, something that anyone should be able to not do.
posted by Frowner at 12:43 PM on May 29 [46 favorites]
If you had told me, just starting out my voting career by voting for Bill "let's destroy the welfare system and cut the floor from under the working class, by the way I'm also a rapist" Clinton, that normal, ordinary people I'd probably like if I met them socially would repeatedly hector me about how I need to vote for a literal genocidaire, I would have run off and moved to the woods. It's just, like, this is completely unacceptable. We're all being told all the time that we just HAVE to vote for a guy who is literally making it possible to chop up babies with hellfire missiles in order to guarantee the future of the republic. If there's anyone who cares left to look back at the United States in a hundred years, they're going to view us as Good Germans.
Back before this all began, I know I said on here that the Democratic ratchet was moving things so that we were voting for worse Democrats every time, and pretty soon we'd be voting for machine gunning immigrants at the border in order to keep out the "drop them in acid vats" candidate. But I really did not expect this.
There's always an option that the Democrats have that would get me firmly back on side, and that is to END American support for the genocide of Palestine and to END the censorship, violence and punishment used against those who protest that genocide. I have put up with a lot from the Democrats in my life and I might as well put up with most things as long as they're short of literally burning babies to death in their tents in the refugee camp, something that anyone should be able to not do.
posted by Frowner at 12:43 PM on May 29 [46 favorites]
I don't hear a lot of "both sides are the same" but I do hear a lot of "both sides are unacceptably bad" and I can't really say that it's incorrect given the magnitude of the issues we're currently facing.
Unless something momentous happens, the choice in November will be between Biden and Trump, and I don't hear a lot of "both sides are the same" but I do hear a lot of "both sides are unacceptably bad" is not overtly wrong on its face, I contend that you're making a distinction without a difference.
Biden and Trump are different. Vastly, hugely, monumentally. To everyone I've spoken to who intends to abstain or vote for Jill Stein as a write-in or such, I say to them: Act, or don't, according to your conscience. But you can't disclaim your contribution, however small it may be, to the outcome. I accept the moral injury to my conscience that a Biden vote will cost me, and I would vote for him every single day from now through the end of this term to prevent another Trump administration if that is what it would take.
posted by tclark at 12:45 PM on May 29 [40 favorites]
Unless something momentous happens, the choice in November will be between Biden and Trump, and I don't hear a lot of "both sides are the same" but I do hear a lot of "both sides are unacceptably bad" is not overtly wrong on its face, I contend that you're making a distinction without a difference.
Biden and Trump are different. Vastly, hugely, monumentally. To everyone I've spoken to who intends to abstain or vote for Jill Stein as a write-in or such, I say to them: Act, or don't, according to your conscience. But you can't disclaim your contribution, however small it may be, to the outcome. I accept the moral injury to my conscience that a Biden vote will cost me, and I would vote for him every single day from now through the end of this term to prevent another Trump administration if that is what it would take.
posted by tclark at 12:45 PM on May 29 [40 favorites]
On crime, trade policy, fiscal responsibility vs social spending, targeted government support for industries, gay/trans rights, and minimum wage, among many other issues, the party has moved steadily to the left
Whether you are satisfied with where the Democratic party is in 2024 depends largely on whether you think of a platform as a static thing or as a trajectory. Compared to where we were? Yes, it's further left. Did it match the trajectory most of us expected? No. Is the American left still "left" in comparison with the left in countries we once saw as peers? Allowing for a few peers that also backslid, not really, no. Does it account for the values of today's young left? Not especially, no.
I mean, I see what you're saying, and there's truth in it. But do I still feel like we're sliding downward because the Overton Window got yanked to one side like crazy? Yes, I do. Do I think stances like "What if we only sort of close the border?" or "What if we let Israel do a genocide, but we build a pier?" are great compromises? No, I do not.
And most importantly, I do not think that getting the calcified, decades-in-power party leadership to tilt ever-so-slightly left of where they were when they took office (which was in many cases before the advent of the PC or the internet) is at all as useful in driving engagement with voters as replacing them with new leaders and fresh ideas would be.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:45 PM on May 29 [19 favorites]
Whether you are satisfied with where the Democratic party is in 2024 depends largely on whether you think of a platform as a static thing or as a trajectory. Compared to where we were? Yes, it's further left. Did it match the trajectory most of us expected? No. Is the American left still "left" in comparison with the left in countries we once saw as peers? Allowing for a few peers that also backslid, not really, no. Does it account for the values of today's young left? Not especially, no.
I mean, I see what you're saying, and there's truth in it. But do I still feel like we're sliding downward because the Overton Window got yanked to one side like crazy? Yes, I do. Do I think stances like "What if we only sort of close the border?" or "What if we let Israel do a genocide, but we build a pier?" are great compromises? No, I do not.
And most importantly, I do not think that getting the calcified, decades-in-power party leadership to tilt ever-so-slightly left of where they were when they took office (which was in many cases before the advent of the PC or the internet) is at all as useful in driving engagement with voters as replacing them with new leaders and fresh ideas would be.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:45 PM on May 29 [19 favorites]
I keep coming back to how much the Republicans absolutely hate the New Deal. Modern conservationism was founded with the explicit goal of rolling it back and Republicans have spent the better part of a century taking over the judiciary so they can dismantle FDR's legacy bit by bit. Even now the GOP are doubling down on an outright authoritarian for President because he's their best chance at the White House and they'd rather dismantle Democracy than risk Democrats ever even coming close to passing similar legislation ever again.
It's so frustrating that Democrats either forget that they have access to such a powerful political tool, or deliberately hide it for the sake of appearing "centrist".
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:46 PM on May 29 [21 favorites]
It's so frustrating that Democrats either forget that they have access to such a powerful political tool, or deliberately hide it for the sake of appearing "centrist".
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:46 PM on May 29 [21 favorites]
To say that failing to convince someone to vote for Biden is equivalent to failing to " convince people on the left to fight right-wing authoritarians" is also excluding a pretty large middle, isn't it?
I mean, everyone i know on the actual left is fighting right-wing authoritarians all the fucking time? They're just mostly not deluding themselves that voting (or not voting) for Biden is going to make an iota of difference to that fight.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:46 PM on May 29 [7 favorites]
I mean, everyone i know on the actual left is fighting right-wing authoritarians all the fucking time? They're just mostly not deluding themselves that voting (or not voting) for Biden is going to make an iota of difference to that fight.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:46 PM on May 29 [7 favorites]
Another example of the DNC working against itself in order to move further to the right: Hakeem Jeffries, Josh Gottheimer, and Terri Sewell launched a PAC to keep dem incumbents in their seats. Now that a record breaking amount of money is being thrown around to unseat Jamaal Bowman and other Dems asking for a ceasefire, where is that PAC money? Instead the Dem establishment is actively courting AIPAC to throw out the incumbents in the left of the party.
I want Joe Biden to win, but I can't force him to.
Or as Hamilton Nolan says, "The left is not Joe Biden's problem. Joe Biden is."
posted by tofu_crouton at 12:47 PM on May 29 [23 favorites]
I want Joe Biden to win, but I can't force him to.
Or as Hamilton Nolan says, "The left is not Joe Biden's problem. Joe Biden is."
posted by tofu_crouton at 12:47 PM on May 29 [23 favorites]
What's interesting about the result is that these are citizens who are too young to have gone through many cycles of "this is the most important election of our lives, and if you don't vote for the right person, everything will go to hell--oh, whoops, things went to hell anyway because your elected representatives' hands are tied by traditions and bylaws you've never heard of." Their burn-out, in other words, must come more from the world currently around them, rather than the dull repetition of voting not fixing anything.
It's interesting that corruption was a key theme here. We talk about the economy, and sure, that generation has seen real inflation for the first time in their lives. And climate, and war, etc. etc. But the corruption thing is interesting, because it doesn't appear to be something the current campaigns are interested in. No one is really talking about radically overhauling campaign finance law. No one is putting serious proposals on the table to force the Supreme Court to abide by basic ethical standards. Trump may be a difference in degree (we'll find out if the jury agrees in the next couple days, I guess!), but I don't think people are perceiving him as different in kind.
So, for all the really big issues facing us, maybe it would behoove politicians to focus first on stopping the rot, to build confidence in young voters?
posted by mittens at 12:47 PM on May 29 [13 favorites]
It's interesting that corruption was a key theme here. We talk about the economy, and sure, that generation has seen real inflation for the first time in their lives. And climate, and war, etc. etc. But the corruption thing is interesting, because it doesn't appear to be something the current campaigns are interested in. No one is really talking about radically overhauling campaign finance law. No one is putting serious proposals on the table to force the Supreme Court to abide by basic ethical standards. Trump may be a difference in degree (we'll find out if the jury agrees in the next couple days, I guess!), but I don't think people are perceiving him as different in kind.
So, for all the really big issues facing us, maybe it would behoove politicians to focus first on stopping the rot, to build confidence in young voters?
posted by mittens at 12:47 PM on May 29 [13 favorites]
Never heard of Blueprint before. Apparently they only got started last November. They have no actual names listed on their About page. This article doesn't link to the actual poll or its data. There's a link to "Kinetic Strategies" which as far as I can tell is one digital marketing guy. My shoes are older than this polling firm.
Why are we wasting time discussing their "results"?
posted by AlSweigart at 12:48 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
Why are we wasting time discussing their "results"?
posted by AlSweigart at 12:48 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
It's so frustrating that Democrats either forget that they have access to such a powerful political tool, or deliberately hide it for the sake of appearing "centrist".
I don't think most Democrats with any power want any sort of radical, progressive change. I think if there was a poltiical movement that threatened genuine economic justice, they'd work with Trump or whoever else they had to to shut it down.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:50 PM on May 29 [23 favorites]
I don't think most Democrats with any power want any sort of radical, progressive change. I think if there was a poltiical movement that threatened genuine economic justice, they'd work with Trump or whoever else they had to to shut it down.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:50 PM on May 29 [23 favorites]
Young people don't really vote in local elections either, correct?
Going back to Obama, his 2008 campaign was nearly flawless and he got 45% of the under-25 vote, which I recall was high at the time.
One thing that sucks for young voters is that some of the issues they prioritize/are loudest about are not particularly popular with the general public. This doesn't mean they should capitulate...but I don't know the answer as to how they should be taken more seriously. Personally I think it would help if more of them voted more often but it doesn't look like that's going to happen.
posted by girlmightlive at 12:52 PM on May 29 [4 favorites]
Going back to Obama, his 2008 campaign was nearly flawless and he got 45% of the under-25 vote, which I recall was high at the time.
One thing that sucks for young voters is that some of the issues they prioritize/are loudest about are not particularly popular with the general public. This doesn't mean they should capitulate...but I don't know the answer as to how they should be taken more seriously. Personally I think it would help if more of them voted more often but it doesn't look like that's going to happen.
posted by girlmightlive at 12:52 PM on May 29 [4 favorites]
Dems haven't gone as far right as they will as the campaign goes on. Do not be surprised if they choose to do something wildly stupid and antagonistic towards marginalized voters they think they can lose
Can't wait to find out what that looks like in the case of my DINO, cop-loving, immigrant-bashing, trans-oppressing, fuckity-fuck-fucking son-of-a-bitch state rep here in Trump Country, Pennsylvania. His campaign page literally lists "conservative values" as one of his "priorities."
posted by Rykey at 12:53 PM on May 29 [7 favorites]
Can't wait to find out what that looks like in the case of my DINO, cop-loving, immigrant-bashing, trans-oppressing, fuckity-fuck-fucking son-of-a-bitch state rep here in Trump Country, Pennsylvania. His campaign page literally lists "conservative values" as one of his "priorities."
posted by Rykey at 12:53 PM on May 29 [7 favorites]
Part of the problem is "Presidential Politics" combined with 2 party system that's "built in". The rotten Senate imbalance of power. The imbalanced SCOTUS. Imperial Presidencies/Presidential Privilege.
Nobody's actually touching these issues, cuz it benefits both parties. As long as their party can be one of the two lead, they can just play "the eternal struggle".
These assholes have no foresight, they only play politics with the now with some perceived "problem" that is same as it ever was - racism, wealthism, etc.
Heaven forbid we raise even the slightest bit of taxes.
Also - Trumps fucking bullshit Protectionism caused a HUGE rise in import costs, which meant things were harder to buy. The pandemic certainly didn't help.
And because Americans only ever fucking give a shit when it's the president we can't build the lower order level politics that are necessary as a base. And because who was president during the pandemic, the "before times" to the time-ignorant youth, some of whom were like, what fucking 12? when this shit all kicked off. (No offense to Z, man, I feel your plights, but you need perspective and y'all ain't got TIME for that - the Crisis is NOW, and you playing like it's 1800s ain't gonna do jack shit) Retreat is not an option. But anyways, the point is - they see "Biden is president so the before times were better so Trump" This may be a "blip" and once they get stung hard enough. But Dems have to bring their A game, and "Bad man dictator" won't cut it anymore.
FFS you can't even prosecute the fucker properly. God you're so inept. Doesn't help so many of these judges were put there by the man himself, and in any proper sane society he should be ineligible to run, but nope, we're just gonna do this thing.
And I wouldn't feel so bad if the Dems were halfway competent instead of just bumbling reacting to chase some tail of whatever phantom dragon party base they're looking for now that the 60s idpol is shifting underneath them, the boomers are incapable of seeing the shifting sands, and fuck me, man.
posted by symbioid at 12:53 PM on May 29 [15 favorites]
Nobody's actually touching these issues, cuz it benefits both parties. As long as their party can be one of the two lead, they can just play "the eternal struggle".
These assholes have no foresight, they only play politics with the now with some perceived "problem" that is same as it ever was - racism, wealthism, etc.
Heaven forbid we raise even the slightest bit of taxes.
Also - Trumps fucking bullshit Protectionism caused a HUGE rise in import costs, which meant things were harder to buy. The pandemic certainly didn't help.
And because Americans only ever fucking give a shit when it's the president we can't build the lower order level politics that are necessary as a base. And because who was president during the pandemic, the "before times" to the time-ignorant youth, some of whom were like, what fucking 12? when this shit all kicked off. (No offense to Z, man, I feel your plights, but you need perspective and y'all ain't got TIME for that - the Crisis is NOW, and you playing like it's 1800s ain't gonna do jack shit) Retreat is not an option. But anyways, the point is - they see "Biden is president so the before times were better so Trump" This may be a "blip" and once they get stung hard enough. But Dems have to bring their A game, and "Bad man dictator" won't cut it anymore.
FFS you can't even prosecute the fucker properly. God you're so inept. Doesn't help so many of these judges were put there by the man himself, and in any proper sane society he should be ineligible to run, but nope, we're just gonna do this thing.
And I wouldn't feel so bad if the Dems were halfway competent instead of just bumbling reacting to chase some tail of whatever phantom dragon party base they're looking for now that the 60s idpol is shifting underneath them, the boomers are incapable of seeing the shifting sands, and fuck me, man.
posted by symbioid at 12:53 PM on May 29 [15 favorites]
40+ years of neoliberalism (means-testing, stagnant wages, skyrocketing costs of housing, health care, education, "socialize the losses, privatize the gains") has meant that today's young people have never known anything else. Hell, I'm 43 years old and I've never known anything else. I was 27 during the financial crisis and I'm still mad about it.
And yes, while by many objective measures the Biden administration is the most progressive we've had in a generation, it's also just absolutely filled with bad communicators who are too afraid of upsetting the median voter by straight-up telling people all the good shit they are doing, while at the same time having no trouble going "sold Israel billions of dollars of cluster bombs to drop on Palestinian civilians? Yeah, we did that *sunglass emoji*"
Meanwhile, the Supreme Court is busy rolling back the 20th Century (Voting Rights Act, abortion, the administrative state, etc.) and Biden is busy going "but muh NORMS" to do anything to stop this kakistocratic assault on democracy.
Our roads are shit, housing is so bad that there are literal encampments in every major and minor city in the country, we can't build anything to save our life, and we just straight up memory-holed a massive respiratory disease pandemic without doing anything to update health and safety regulations. At every turn the modern American political class is too busy protecting themselves to actually attempt to fix anything.
What a mystery this all is!
posted by rhymedirective at 12:57 PM on May 29 [54 favorites]
And yes, while by many objective measures the Biden administration is the most progressive we've had in a generation, it's also just absolutely filled with bad communicators who are too afraid of upsetting the median voter by straight-up telling people all the good shit they are doing, while at the same time having no trouble going "sold Israel billions of dollars of cluster bombs to drop on Palestinian civilians? Yeah, we did that *sunglass emoji*"
Meanwhile, the Supreme Court is busy rolling back the 20th Century (Voting Rights Act, abortion, the administrative state, etc.) and Biden is busy going "but muh NORMS" to do anything to stop this kakistocratic assault on democracy.
Our roads are shit, housing is so bad that there are literal encampments in every major and minor city in the country, we can't build anything to save our life, and we just straight up memory-holed a massive respiratory disease pandemic without doing anything to update health and safety regulations. At every turn the modern American political class is too busy protecting themselves to actually attempt to fix anything.
What a mystery this all is!
posted by rhymedirective at 12:57 PM on May 29 [54 favorites]
The problem begins and ends with the condition of the 4th estate and consumption practices of same.
Plenty bad is attributable to FoxNews/Trump/Putin. If not causal, than considerable amplification fx, as if it matters less.
FTFY
posted by Fupped Duck at 12:58 PM on May 29 [2 favorites]
Plenty bad is attributable to FoxNews/Trump/Putin. If not causal, than considerable amplification fx, as if it matters less.
FTFY
posted by Fupped Duck at 12:58 PM on May 29 [2 favorites]
Young people don't really vote in local elections either, correct?
Honestly if I was trying to persuade someone to vote that’s where I would encourage them to vote, presidential votes being terrifyingly irrelevant in pretty much everywhere that isn’t a swing state.
Also you get to vote for progressive people (probably democrats) and policies, even if they will almost always be crushed by better funded right wing opponents with the local press barons on their side (also quite likely democrats).
posted by Artw at 1:02 PM on May 29 [13 favorites]
Honestly if I was trying to persuade someone to vote that’s where I would encourage them to vote, presidential votes being terrifyingly irrelevant in pretty much everywhere that isn’t a swing state.
Also you get to vote for progressive people (probably democrats) and policies, even if they will almost always be crushed by better funded right wing opponents with the local press barons on their side (also quite likely democrats).
posted by Artw at 1:02 PM on May 29 [13 favorites]
what particular policies do you see Democrats as too far left on?
Republicans are more popular on crime and immigration; generally, Democrats in swing states would be more likely to win if they moved to the right on those issues. On other areas, like abortion and student debt relief, Dems are more popular so should talk them up. I'm talking about political strategies, not policy ideals. We all knew Obama was lying about his opposition to gay marriage, but it was the correct political, if not moral, position.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 1:05 PM on May 29 [2 favorites]
Republicans are more popular on crime and immigration; generally, Democrats in swing states would be more likely to win if they moved to the right on those issues. On other areas, like abortion and student debt relief, Dems are more popular so should talk them up. I'm talking about political strategies, not policy ideals. We all knew Obama was lying about his opposition to gay marriage, but it was the correct political, if not moral, position.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 1:05 PM on May 29 [2 favorites]
Do these surveys of young people ever ask them (1) if they still live with their folks and, (2) if not, what is the proportion of their income they pay in rent? I'm sure it would be illuminating.
Past forty now, I'm no longer young, but if I could ever hope to scrabble together a downpayment on a single bedroom condo, I'd be facing a $4,000--$5,500 per month mortgage, and if my rent-controlled apartment ever gets bought and torn down (inevitable, eventually), my rent will go up over 100% a month and I'll be in a studio apartment instead of a one bedroom. Could I sever 20 years of social and professional ties, leave Los Angeles, move thousands of miles from my family members, and go to like Minneapolis or Pittsburgh or something? Sure! Both are beautiful cities with their own housing crises.
But like, "you'd better think about totally upending your life so that you can cling to a single thread of viability for your future" is not a foundation on which to build an enthusiastic electoral coalition. No one is coming into 2024 election high on the good vibes of having just bought some other poor soul's foreclosed house for a $20k downpayment, which maybe helped Obama through a close re-election campaign in the urban cores in 2012.
posted by kensington314 at 1:06 PM on May 29 [16 favorites]
Past forty now, I'm no longer young, but if I could ever hope to scrabble together a downpayment on a single bedroom condo, I'd be facing a $4,000--$5,500 per month mortgage, and if my rent-controlled apartment ever gets bought and torn down (inevitable, eventually), my rent will go up over 100% a month and I'll be in a studio apartment instead of a one bedroom. Could I sever 20 years of social and professional ties, leave Los Angeles, move thousands of miles from my family members, and go to like Minneapolis or Pittsburgh or something? Sure! Both are beautiful cities with their own housing crises.
But like, "you'd better think about totally upending your life so that you can cling to a single thread of viability for your future" is not a foundation on which to build an enthusiastic electoral coalition. No one is coming into 2024 election high on the good vibes of having just bought some other poor soul's foreclosed house for a $20k downpayment, which maybe helped Obama through a close re-election campaign in the urban cores in 2012.
posted by kensington314 at 1:06 PM on May 29 [16 favorites]
(I guess that $4,000 figure probably also includes taxes and HOA fees, not just mortgage.)
posted by kensington314 at 1:10 PM on May 29 [1 favorite]
posted by kensington314 at 1:10 PM on May 29 [1 favorite]
The thing about crime is it’s mostly a vibes thing. Any attempt to materially change things in the world rather than appeal to the vibes is a complete waste of time. And the vibes are mostly based on knee jerk lizard brain shit that republicans utterly control, so Dems campaigning against Repubs on crime toughness are just going to get crushed like the losers they are. Same with immigration, which is just racism.
posted by Artw at 1:14 PM on May 29 [32 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:14 PM on May 29 [32 favorites]
fiery leftists with bold policy ideas to actually drum up any voter enthusiasm.
And drive away literally everyone else. Just like reactionaries are incapable of understanding that nobody else thinks cruelty is funny, fiery leftists are incapable of understanding that nobody else can stand them, and certainly won't put them in positions of power.
Trying to keep the Republicans out of power is a really delicate balancing act. Certain more left policies (higher wages, some kind of massive expansion of homebuilding) might increase the size of the rickety, extremely diverse coalition of people who don't want Christofascism. Certain other policies might have the exact opposite effect.
But the fundamental problem is money. If Biden argues for higher wages, his donors will revolt and he'll be unable to mount a campaign. If Biden argues for a more balanced I/P policy, his own party will revolt against him, because the need for money has made the Dems owned and operated by the terrorists of AIPAC. The place to really be disillusioned about our system starts and ends with Citizens United.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 1:32 PM on May 29 [14 favorites]
And drive away literally everyone else. Just like reactionaries are incapable of understanding that nobody else thinks cruelty is funny, fiery leftists are incapable of understanding that nobody else can stand them, and certainly won't put them in positions of power.
Trying to keep the Republicans out of power is a really delicate balancing act. Certain more left policies (higher wages, some kind of massive expansion of homebuilding) might increase the size of the rickety, extremely diverse coalition of people who don't want Christofascism. Certain other policies might have the exact opposite effect.
But the fundamental problem is money. If Biden argues for higher wages, his donors will revolt and he'll be unable to mount a campaign. If Biden argues for a more balanced I/P policy, his own party will revolt against him, because the need for money has made the Dems owned and operated by the terrorists of AIPAC. The place to really be disillusioned about our system starts and ends with Citizens United.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 1:32 PM on May 29 [14 favorites]
I think the current generation believe that liberal politics don't matter is that, in spite of overwhelming majorities on issues like abortion, gun control laws, Israel relations, campaign financing issues, etc. the opposition controls these issues so that nothing gets done.
It used to be what two-thirds of people thought mattered.
I agree that Democrats are terrible in presenting issues like crime (down), immigration (a good thing), and the economy (the parts that suck are due to inequities).
The best cure for the problems with democracy is more democracy.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:34 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
It used to be what two-thirds of people thought mattered.
I agree that Democrats are terrible in presenting issues like crime (down), immigration (a good thing), and the economy (the parts that suck are due to inequities).
The best cure for the problems with democracy is more democracy.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:34 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
The younger folks have watched inequality rise to Gilded Age levels, the planet being literally on fire, the possibility of buying a home slip ever out of their reach, the Federalist Society appointing a majority of unelected god-kings who remove rights for fun, a President start an insurrection and then walk away untouched, a shambolic response to COVID, on top of being in active shooter drills most of their lives because we cannot say no to gun fetishists.
Gosh, why would they be nihilistic, I wonder?
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 1:41 PM on May 29 [40 favorites]
Gosh, why would they be nihilistic, I wonder?
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 1:41 PM on May 29 [40 favorites]
Just like reactionaries are incapable of understanding that nobody else thinks cruelty is funny, fiery leftists are incapable of understanding that nobody else can stand them, and certainly won't put them in positions of power.
It seems like the right has had more success as they've drifted from the middle, though. At the very least, they've gotten very good at replenishing their ranks with younger people, further from the middle who normalize once far-out ideas and policies.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:44 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
It seems like the right has had more success as they've drifted from the middle, though. At the very least, they've gotten very good at replenishing their ranks with younger people, further from the middle who normalize once far-out ideas and policies.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:44 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
Trying to keep the Republicans out of power is a really delicate balancing act. Certain more left policies (higher wages, some kind of massive expansion of homebuilding) might increase the size of the rickety, extremely diverse coalition of people who don't want Christofascism. Certain other policies might have the exact opposite effect.
Okay, but you see the problem here? That it's okay for certain coalition partners to make demands and set conditions on their support otherwise they walk, but it's not okay for other coalition partners to do the same? That some groups get to do the whole nice-country-you-have-here-it-would-be-a-shame-if-it-were-lost-to-Christofascim in exchange for favorable policies and other groups get ridiculed for being pawns of Putin?
I'm not saying this is easy, but maybe they could do a little better job at making this less of a zero-sum game and doing more to not play favorites when it comes to which groups get to act like assholes? We're all in this together, after all.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:50 PM on May 29 [16 favorites]
Okay, but you see the problem here? That it's okay for certain coalition partners to make demands and set conditions on their support otherwise they walk, but it's not okay for other coalition partners to do the same? That some groups get to do the whole nice-country-you-have-here-it-would-be-a-shame-if-it-were-lost-to-Christofascim in exchange for favorable policies and other groups get ridiculed for being pawns of Putin?
I'm not saying this is easy, but maybe they could do a little better job at making this less of a zero-sum game and doing more to not play favorites when it comes to which groups get to act like assholes? We're all in this together, after all.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:50 PM on May 29 [16 favorites]
Voting is a right. Regardless of the candidate, and I mean, the candidate could literally be one step from a dictator, not voting disenfranchises you. It means you don't even have the slightest hope of having a voice, whereas if you vote, at least there's that possibility.
It's not even a question of the perfect being the enemy of the good. By not voting, you're, at least for that election, giving up a right.
posted by omredux at 1:53 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
It's not even a question of the perfect being the enemy of the good. By not voting, you're, at least for that election, giving up a right.
posted by omredux at 1:53 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
hey've gotten very good at replenishing their ranks with younger people
They spend a huge amount of time and money on that, starting with people like Rogan, passing through Peterson, and ending somewhere out past Andrew Tate.
And it works. It works really, really, really well. Once you get rolling, it even manages to fund itself as long as you can keep your grifting game on point.
Shit, just check out the meme stock fools -- a bunch of rightwing psychos have started glomming on to them (see Tate, above), and it's working. These people lost their money in a pump and dump because they were ignorant, greedy, and gullible to professional grifters (and deeply unwilling to listen to anyone who tried to explain this wasn't going to work), and next thing you know they're blaming (((them))), elitists, and so on.
...of course, those grifters absolutely cannot be seen as guilty, so hey presto, (((they))) don't want you to have money! Hedgies R fukt! Have fun staying poor! WAGMI! I was just in it for a quick short squeeze, but now I'm diamond-handed! HODL! Let's rip the heads off the elitists!
Yes, it is that stupid. Yes, it is working. The best the Left has done so far seems to amount to roundtable discussions on policy and the occasional documentary with minor-key music and washed-out images of a nice river that isn't there any longer.
posted by aramaic at 1:57 PM on May 29 [11 favorites]
They spend a huge amount of time and money on that, starting with people like Rogan, passing through Peterson, and ending somewhere out past Andrew Tate.
And it works. It works really, really, really well. Once you get rolling, it even manages to fund itself as long as you can keep your grifting game on point.
Shit, just check out the meme stock fools -- a bunch of rightwing psychos have started glomming on to them (see Tate, above), and it's working. These people lost their money in a pump and dump because they were ignorant, greedy, and gullible to professional grifters (and deeply unwilling to listen to anyone who tried to explain this wasn't going to work), and next thing you know they're blaming (((them))), elitists, and so on.
...of course, those grifters absolutely cannot be seen as guilty, so hey presto, (((they))) don't want you to have money! Hedgies R fukt! Have fun staying poor! WAGMI! I was just in it for a quick short squeeze, but now I'm diamond-handed! HODL! Let's rip the heads off the elitists!
Yes, it is that stupid. Yes, it is working. The best the Left has done so far seems to amount to roundtable discussions on policy and the occasional documentary with minor-key music and washed-out images of a nice river that isn't there any longer.
posted by aramaic at 1:57 PM on May 29 [11 favorites]
it's okay for certain coalition partners to make demands and set conditions on their support otherwise they walk, but it's not okay for other coalition partners to do the same?
I don't think it's "okay" at all; I think it's the reality of the situation. A deeply unfortunate one. The donors are all rich and will do fine under Trump: they'll get abortions, their trans kids will be insulated from the concentration camps. So if they walk and Biden loses, they don't truly suffer. Therefore, they get to make more demands than other groups, who will suffer far more under Trump II if they walk.
The whole system sucks, I completely agree. I also agree that the leadership of the Dem Party should have been forcibly retired during Obama's second term. But I can simultaneously decry that and engage in harm reduction voting, because it's my got damn responsibility to other people, which is why some of us who are sneered at as "centrists" get frustrated with Fiery Leftists who appear to care about the general welfare of ordinary people more than the rich, but who at the first opportunity will duck out of the coalition and thereby doom ordinary people to far worse.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 1:58 PM on May 29 [7 favorites]
I don't think it's "okay" at all; I think it's the reality of the situation. A deeply unfortunate one. The donors are all rich and will do fine under Trump: they'll get abortions, their trans kids will be insulated from the concentration camps. So if they walk and Biden loses, they don't truly suffer. Therefore, they get to make more demands than other groups, who will suffer far more under Trump II if they walk.
The whole system sucks, I completely agree. I also agree that the leadership of the Dem Party should have been forcibly retired during Obama's second term. But I can simultaneously decry that and engage in harm reduction voting, because it's my got damn responsibility to other people, which is why some of us who are sneered at as "centrists" get frustrated with Fiery Leftists who appear to care about the general welfare of ordinary people more than the rich, but who at the first opportunity will duck out of the coalition and thereby doom ordinary people to far worse.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 1:58 PM on May 29 [7 favorites]
The most bleak and defeatist view of all.
posted by Artw at 2:02 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:02 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
I don't know.
I came into this election cycle firmly in the harm reduction hold-your-nose-and-vote camp, in fact argued with some of you at length about it here. Over the last few months though it's just been... so much. Gaza is too much. The protest suppression and blue-line solidarity is too much. The scolding and cynical manipulation is too much. The lip service to things that matter to me while doing nothing or worse than nothing in reality, is too much.
I'm older than the cohort in this study but I'm not at all surprised by it. A dying empire led by bad people seems as good a characterization as any. And I think it was Frowner that made me realize, a dozen threads ago, that harm reduction can't be a long-term strategy. We can't just keep voting for Democrats forever only because the Republican alternative is worse. The Republican alternative is absolutely worse, maybe end of the American experiment worse, but when the best the Democrats can offer is, pay no attention to the little genocide behind the curtain, just vote for us and maybe we'll stave off collapse for another four years, and then in another four years it's the same plea, nothing new, nothing better, just the lesser of two evils, only I have to scrape off and sell just a little more of my soul to support them... we can't go on like this. I can't go on like this.
So I don't know. As of today I don't see myself voting for Biden. Maybe something will change before November. I'm in a solidly blue state so that doesn't matter much anyway, but blue state, red state, swing state, anyone who tells me they can't see voting blue in November, I get it. I won't argue with you. I won't try to convince you. I assume you know the tradeoff and you understand what it will cost, to vote or not to vote. We're all grownups here. And maybe November will be the beginning of the end in earnest, or maybe it'll be another rearguard action and we'll have another four years before the barricades fall. But we can't prop them up forever, not at this moral cost, not when the return on our investment is so meager and cynical.
I don't know how we fix it, but we probably don't fix it at all on a national level. I'll focus more on local stuff, maybe it's still possible for good things to happen there.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 2:04 PM on May 29 [34 favorites]
I came into this election cycle firmly in the harm reduction hold-your-nose-and-vote camp, in fact argued with some of you at length about it here. Over the last few months though it's just been... so much. Gaza is too much. The protest suppression and blue-line solidarity is too much. The scolding and cynical manipulation is too much. The lip service to things that matter to me while doing nothing or worse than nothing in reality, is too much.
I'm older than the cohort in this study but I'm not at all surprised by it. A dying empire led by bad people seems as good a characterization as any. And I think it was Frowner that made me realize, a dozen threads ago, that harm reduction can't be a long-term strategy. We can't just keep voting for Democrats forever only because the Republican alternative is worse. The Republican alternative is absolutely worse, maybe end of the American experiment worse, but when the best the Democrats can offer is, pay no attention to the little genocide behind the curtain, just vote for us and maybe we'll stave off collapse for another four years, and then in another four years it's the same plea, nothing new, nothing better, just the lesser of two evils, only I have to scrape off and sell just a little more of my soul to support them... we can't go on like this. I can't go on like this.
So I don't know. As of today I don't see myself voting for Biden. Maybe something will change before November. I'm in a solidly blue state so that doesn't matter much anyway, but blue state, red state, swing state, anyone who tells me they can't see voting blue in November, I get it. I won't argue with you. I won't try to convince you. I assume you know the tradeoff and you understand what it will cost, to vote or not to vote. We're all grownups here. And maybe November will be the beginning of the end in earnest, or maybe it'll be another rearguard action and we'll have another four years before the barricades fall. But we can't prop them up forever, not at this moral cost, not when the return on our investment is so meager and cynical.
I don't know how we fix it, but we probably don't fix it at all on a national level. I'll focus more on local stuff, maybe it's still possible for good things to happen there.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 2:04 PM on May 29 [34 favorites]
is there some giant group of leftists out there who are coordinating to entirely withhold their vote? Because in the absence of something you can point at, there's a real "straw feminists" vibe, where leftists are so weak that they can be ignored, but also so strong that they must be convinced to enthusiastically support Biden or else they're the reason he loses the election.
Otherwise, all the scolding of Fiery Leftists for "ducking out of the coalition" that doesn't even want them would perhaps be better aimed at the Apathetic Centrists who are running the party.
posted by sagc at 2:05 PM on May 29 [27 favorites]
Otherwise, all the scolding of Fiery Leftists for "ducking out of the coalition" that doesn't even want them would perhaps be better aimed at the Apathetic Centrists who are running the party.
posted by sagc at 2:05 PM on May 29 [27 favorites]
By not voting, you're, at least for that election, giving up a right.
I vote in every election even down to the most tedious local ones but not exercising a right at a given time is not the same as giving up a right. Under the US Constitution I have the right to own a stupidly staggering number of firearms but I haven't given up that right just because I don't.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 2:07 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
I vote in every election even down to the most tedious local ones but not exercising a right at a given time is not the same as giving up a right. Under the US Constitution I have the right to own a stupidly staggering number of firearms but I haven't given up that right just because I don't.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 2:07 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
For my money, the Fiery Leftists that are being scolded are the ones actually out there doing the work. They are helping out in tent cities, they are holding rallies for people who are being renovicted, and they are showing up at city council meetings. You see, those Fiery Leftists put their money where their mouth is. And it's not for nothing I see Liberals bemoaning that we need to focus on X and making fun of the Fiery Leftist who are out there actually helping in their community.
posted by Kitteh at 2:09 PM on May 29 [20 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 2:09 PM on May 29 [20 favorites]
not exercising a right at a given time is not the same as giving up a right
It will be once Trump II takes over, because we'll never have an actual election again.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 2:09 PM on May 29 [10 favorites]
It will be once Trump II takes over, because we'll never have an actual election again.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 2:09 PM on May 29 [10 favorites]
Whenever I read about the dems and their "Realpolitik" re: gaza, immigrants, trans people, cops, the environment etc etc etc etc., I think, a la the torment nexus, they read Freebird's Comment Fable about "progress in abstracted morality" and they thought, WOW WHAT A GOOD IDEA.
posted by lalochezia at 2:10 PM on May 29 [6 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 2:10 PM on May 29 [6 favorites]
The Fiery Leftists are also the ones going door to door, asking people to vote for candidates, and trying to run younger and more exciting candidates. Then Nancy Pelosi swoops into town and tells everyone they should vote for anti-abortion criminal Cuellar, only to have him charged with bribery later, or the party throws all of the donor money at candidates that don't poll well with voters but maybe one day they will if we run enough commercials.
The annoying leftists that have gotten into Congress like AOC and Rashida Tlaib poll incredibly well. Their districts love them. Instead of asking them for advice on how they do so well, they are constantly being shunted to the side by less popular but better funded legislators.
posted by tofu_crouton at 2:16 PM on May 29 [30 favorites]
The annoying leftists that have gotten into Congress like AOC and Rashida Tlaib poll incredibly well. Their districts love them. Instead of asking them for advice on how they do so well, they are constantly being shunted to the side by less popular but better funded legislators.
posted by tofu_crouton at 2:16 PM on May 29 [30 favorites]
people also seem extremely wedded to both a) "Trump is uniquely bad, and requires unique sacrifices to defeat" and b) "we must hold to a very traditional, aisle-crossing, restrained vision of the Democratic Party", and then conclude that it's everyone to the left of them that's wrong.
What if... it's the staid, procedurally-bound Democrats that need to give up on, say, not packing the courts? What if they should stop with the sham bipartisanship that makes obvious their disregard for anyone not like them?
But no, even though we'll "never have an election again", Democrats can't change anything. It's the children who need to change.
posted by sagc at 2:16 PM on May 29 [21 favorites]
What if... it's the staid, procedurally-bound Democrats that need to give up on, say, not packing the courts? What if they should stop with the sham bipartisanship that makes obvious their disregard for anyone not like them?
But no, even though we'll "never have an election again", Democrats can't change anything. It's the children who need to change.
posted by sagc at 2:16 PM on May 29 [21 favorites]
The way I see it, if you are fighting the system because it is so bad as to be unconscionable, then electing a president isn't about choosing your leader, it's about choosing your opponent.
posted by Zalzidrax at 2:17 PM on May 29 [23 favorites]
posted by Zalzidrax at 2:17 PM on May 29 [23 favorites]
It will be once Trump II takes over, because we'll never have an actual election again.
Yes. Those are the stakes. Doesn't that make it even more important to bring people into the coalition and not alienate them by calling them 'fiery leftists'? Doesn't that make it even more imperative that the wealthy make a few concessions to mollify those on the left in order to avert the end of everything as we know it?
Are you really going to choose authoritarianism over having to put up with 'fiery leftists', even if they are insufferable?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 2:17 PM on May 29 [15 favorites]
Yes. Those are the stakes. Doesn't that make it even more important to bring people into the coalition and not alienate them by calling them 'fiery leftists'? Doesn't that make it even more imperative that the wealthy make a few concessions to mollify those on the left in order to avert the end of everything as we know it?
Are you really going to choose authoritarianism over having to put up with 'fiery leftists', even if they are insufferable?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 2:17 PM on May 29 [15 favorites]
It will be once Trump II takes over, because we'll never have an actual election again.
Most of our votes won’t matter one tiny bit in deciding that.
posted by Artw at 2:17 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
Most of our votes won’t matter one tiny bit in deciding that.
posted by Artw at 2:17 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
So, this is where all the cock-eyed optimists have come to roost.
posted by y2karl at 2:18 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 2:18 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
It will be once Trump II takes over, because we'll never have an actual election again.
I will bet you any amount of money you would like to wager that if Trump wins in 2024 four years later there will be another election and if MetaFilter is still viable at that time there will be a thread just like this one where people will be saying this time for really-real we need to vote.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 2:21 PM on May 29 [14 favorites]
I will bet you any amount of money you would like to wager that if Trump wins in 2024 four years later there will be another election and if MetaFilter is still viable at that time there will be a thread just like this one where people will be saying this time for really-real we need to vote.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 2:21 PM on May 29 [14 favorites]
Perhaps it only seems that some leftists have "ducked" out of the party.
In my decades of experience with Democrats, I'm currently of the understanding that those in charge of the party have two asks of me: (1) vote Democratic and (2) keep my mouth shut in any space where dissenting voices might shift the conversation in any way that would threaten their power.
At this point, I'm happy to oblige them on both counts.
As Angela Davis writes in Freedom Is A Constant Struggle, the presidency is not where change emerges even if we need to vote there for harm reduction. Rather, elected officials are a focal point for a much broader, organized coalition to work upon:
In my decades of experience with Democrats, I'm currently of the understanding that those in charge of the party have two asks of me: (1) vote Democratic and (2) keep my mouth shut in any space where dissenting voices might shift the conversation in any way that would threaten their power.
At this point, I'm happy to oblige them on both counts.
As Angela Davis writes in Freedom Is A Constant Struggle, the presidency is not where change emerges even if we need to vote there for harm reduction. Rather, elected officials are a focal point for a much broader, organized coalition to work upon:
Whenever you conceptualize social justice struggles, you will always defeat your own purposes if you cannot imagine the people around whom you are struggling as equal partners.posted by audi alteram partem at 2:22 PM on May 29 [13 favorites]
I hardly ever comment, but seeing the replies here motivates me to. I know I'll be considered a "Dem votescold," but I'm queer and many of my loved ones are trans. I live in a swing county in a swing state where every vote matters. And every time someone says they can't bear to vote for Biden, I think about what will happen to my trans sister (who still lives in a red state) if Biden loses. I think about what will happen to Palestine (millions of willful deaths caused explicitly by the US military). I think about what will happen to every person with a uterus in a red state (registries for pregnancy and prosecution for miscarriage).
And I think, what a luxury it must be to be able to hold your nose and feel like you can wash your hands of all the real people that will suffer when Trump takes power again. What a blessed privilege. I wish I could abstract their suffering away the way you can.
posted by sunnybird at 2:23 PM on May 29 [46 favorites]
And I think, what a luxury it must be to be able to hold your nose and feel like you can wash your hands of all the real people that will suffer when Trump takes power again. What a blessed privilege. I wish I could abstract their suffering away the way you can.
posted by sunnybird at 2:23 PM on May 29 [46 favorites]
leftists are incapable of understanding that nobody else can stand them
This is I think the third thread you have dropped this line in. If there is a particular fight you are trying to pick, you might save time and be more direct about it.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 2:29 PM on May 29 [22 favorites]
This is I think the third thread you have dropped this line in. If there is a particular fight you are trying to pick, you might save time and be more direct about it.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 2:29 PM on May 29 [22 favorites]
And I think, what a luxury it must be to be able to hold your nose and feel like you can wash your hands of all the real people that will suffer when Trump takes power again. What a blessed privilege. I wish I could abstract their suffering away the way you can.
Oh shit, are we measuring credentials now? Ok. I'm a man who's been known to suck a dick or two for a good cause and I also have lots of trans loved ones and I can introduce you to some who were in the pro-Palestine encampments on campus when the cops came in swinging sticks and firing "less lethal" ordinance straight at heads with approval both tacit and explicit from Democratic leadership in a chain straight from City Hall to the fucking White House.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 2:31 PM on May 29 [11 favorites]
Oh shit, are we measuring credentials now? Ok. I'm a man who's been known to suck a dick or two for a good cause and I also have lots of trans loved ones and I can introduce you to some who were in the pro-Palestine encampments on campus when the cops came in swinging sticks and firing "less lethal" ordinance straight at heads with approval both tacit and explicit from Democratic leadership in a chain straight from City Hall to the fucking White House.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 2:31 PM on May 29 [11 favorites]
Honestly I think if you want queer rights in every state the last thing you want is the Democratic Party thinking they can just ignore us without consequence, because they absolutely will.
posted by Artw at 2:33 PM on May 29 [14 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:33 PM on May 29 [14 favorites]
Yeah, I think it's very important to point out that a lot of things people are afraid that a second Trump admin will usher in; abortion bans, crushing of political dissent, disasterous foreign policy, erosion of queer rights, etc. are all things that are currently happening under Biden. Right now.
This isn't to say that people shouldn't vote, or re-elect Trump, obviously. But it is an indication of how ineffective the Dems have been at living up to their own purported values.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 2:35 PM on May 29 [31 favorites]
This isn't to say that people shouldn't vote, or re-elect Trump, obviously. But it is an indication of how ineffective the Dems have been at living up to their own purported values.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 2:35 PM on May 29 [31 favorites]
The point is that I'm not convinced there will be an opposition party if Trump wins again. He has been very clear, over and over and over again, that he intends to be incredibly authoritarian. After January 6 I can't imagine him ever risking losing another election (or moving out of the White House). I'm genuinely flabbergasted how blasé some people in this thread are about what the stakes are for American democracy if Trump gets in again. Things are not going to be normal ever again.
posted by sunnybird at 2:36 PM on May 29 [21 favorites]
posted by sunnybird at 2:36 PM on May 29 [21 favorites]
And yes, I know they're not "normal" now - but I'm not willing to accelerate this country into the sun knowing how much would burn up along the way.
posted by sunnybird at 2:38 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
posted by sunnybird at 2:38 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
Ain’t nobody here in charge of that.
posted by Artw at 2:42 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:42 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
Doesn't that make it even more important to bring people into the coalition and not alienate them by calling them 'fiery leftists'? Doesn't that make it even more imperative that the wealthy make a few concessions to mollify those on the left in order to avert the end of everything as we know it?
For the record, I didn't start the phrase "fiery leftists" here. But to answer your first question, we want to bring more NET people into the coalition. It's important to understand that something designed to appeal to leftists is both a) going to drive away people at the other end of the coalition, and b) almost inevitably going to result in the vast majority of said leftists turning up their noses and calling it Not Good Enough. Sure, some of them are going to be like "well, that's a step in the right direction, I'm mollified for now", but the... constellation, let's call it, of policy proposals and rhetoric that would really get the especially fiery leftists on board would alienate far more than enough people to make the election completely unwinnable. Moreover, the leftists are not well distributed geographically in our system (which no arguments, it's a shitty system).
As far as your second question goes, the oligarchy HAVE made concessions: they're letting Biden speak forcefully about unions.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 2:42 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
For the record, I didn't start the phrase "fiery leftists" here. But to answer your first question, we want to bring more NET people into the coalition. It's important to understand that something designed to appeal to leftists is both a) going to drive away people at the other end of the coalition, and b) almost inevitably going to result in the vast majority of said leftists turning up their noses and calling it Not Good Enough. Sure, some of them are going to be like "well, that's a step in the right direction, I'm mollified for now", but the... constellation, let's call it, of policy proposals and rhetoric that would really get the especially fiery leftists on board would alienate far more than enough people to make the election completely unwinnable. Moreover, the leftists are not well distributed geographically in our system (which no arguments, it's a shitty system).
As far as your second question goes, the oligarchy HAVE made concessions: they're letting Biden speak forcefully about unions.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 2:42 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
the ultra rich have already decided they want fascism, they’re not going to be swayed further towards that.
posted by Artw at 2:44 PM on May 29 [11 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:44 PM on May 29 [11 favorites]
It will be once Trump II takes over, because we'll never have an actual election again.
It won't mean the end of elections in the US. It will just make them even more meaningless and even more tilted in the right:s favor, and the loss of meaningful civil rights protections for tens of millions of people. That is bad enough, and I wish the Democrats were actually treating it seriously instead of seeing a massive step towards open fascism as an election year issue to exploit.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 2:46 PM on May 29 [17 favorites]
It won't mean the end of elections in the US. It will just make them even more meaningless and even more tilted in the right:s favor, and the loss of meaningful civil rights protections for tens of millions of people. That is bad enough, and I wish the Democrats were actually treating it seriously instead of seeing a massive step towards open fascism as an election year issue to exploit.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 2:46 PM on May 29 [17 favorites]
the... constellation, let's call it, of policy proposals and rhetoric that would really get the especially fiery leftists on board would alienate far more than enough people to make the election completely unwinnable
Real Clinton-era DOMA/DADT "we had to punish the gays to save them" vibes.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 2:53 PM on May 29 [7 favorites]
Real Clinton-era DOMA/DADT "we had to punish the gays to save them" vibes.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 2:53 PM on May 29 [7 favorites]
If Trump wins, and all the terrible things we know are going to happen begin, wealthy liberals are going to condemn the people actually fighting the fascists. They're going to demand a return to normalcy while the blood of anarchists and communists is still being shed. If it looks like there might actually be a real and permanent resistance, they will help the fascists kill us and moralize about the rule of law.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 2:56 PM on May 29 [20 favorites]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 2:56 PM on May 29 [20 favorites]
On the propaganda/foreign influence point: effective propaganda has a core of truth in it. It's perfectly possible for the youth to be influenced by outside campaigns AND for those campaigns to be making a (distorted but recognisable) point.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 3:04 PM on May 29 [6 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 3:04 PM on May 29 [6 favorites]
things people are afraid that a second Trump admin will usher in
I actually am afraid because I think everything listed will be taken to its absolute worst extent. He will be complete emboldened and all bets will be off. All he's been talking about is revenge and he'll have a lot of support for that, including maybe two new 45-year-old SCOTUS justices.
posted by girlmightlive at 3:11 PM on May 29 [12 favorites]
I actually am afraid because I think everything listed will be taken to its absolute worst extent. He will be complete emboldened and all bets will be off. All he's been talking about is revenge and he'll have a lot of support for that, including maybe two new 45-year-old SCOTUS justices.
posted by girlmightlive at 3:11 PM on May 29 [12 favorites]
Here in America, a good citizen supports the lies and brutality of Israel and Saudi Arabia, and steers clear of the perfidious truths of our enemies.
posted by fleacircus at 3:19 PM on May 29 [4 favorites]
posted by fleacircus at 3:19 PM on May 29 [4 favorites]
so far the Vote for Biden sounds a lot like a vote for less genocide
people are supposed to vote for less genocide, I'm just going to sit with that for a spell
or wait: let's vote for not-quite-hell-if-you're-trans (sometimes, in some places, if you're lucky and assuming you don't get thrown under the bus so we don't lose those centrists)
these are the options? if that is your hill to die on, well I have good news: there will be hills to die on, believe me
posted by elkevelvet at 3:25 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
people are supposed to vote for less genocide, I'm just going to sit with that for a spell
or wait: let's vote for not-quite-hell-if-you're-trans (sometimes, in some places, if you're lucky and assuming you don't get thrown under the bus so we don't lose those centrists)
these are the options? if that is your hill to die on, well I have good news: there will be hills to die on, believe me
posted by elkevelvet at 3:25 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
If it looks like there might actually be a real and permanent resistance
Eh, we all know there won't be. There will be a lot of posts about pitchforks and tumbrels, and that'll be about the end of it, same as always. It's been going on since Usenet, with exactly the same impact. Just another way to do nothing.
...meanwhile, Trump is talking about a "unified Reich" and your enemies know exactly what to do about THAT.
posted by aramaic at 3:30 PM on May 29 [2 favorites]
Eh, we all know there won't be. There will be a lot of posts about pitchforks and tumbrels, and that'll be about the end of it, same as always. It's been going on since Usenet, with exactly the same impact. Just another way to do nothing.
...meanwhile, Trump is talking about a "unified Reich" and your enemies know exactly what to do about THAT.
posted by aramaic at 3:30 PM on May 29 [2 favorites]
Yeah I think you can assume we’ve heard about that.
So… You going to actually do anything or are zingers like that about it?
posted by Artw at 3:37 PM on May 29 [4 favorites]
So… You going to actually do anything or are zingers like that about it?
posted by Artw at 3:37 PM on May 29 [4 favorites]
I hardly ever comment, but seeing the replies here motivates me to. I know I'll be considered a "Dem votescold," but I'm queer and many of my loved ones are trans. I live in a swing county in a swing state where every vote matters. And every time someone says they can't bear to vote for Biden, I think about what will happen to my trans sister (who still lives in a red state) if Biden loses. I think about what will happen to Palestine (millions of willful deaths caused explicitly by the US military). I think about what will happen to every person with a uterus in a red state (registries for pregnancy and prosecution for miscarriage).
Here's the thing. I know a whole lot of leftists, and a whole lot of them are queer and/or trans and/or nonwhite and/or female and/or otherwise at the very sharp end of the stick which is the American Empire. (I am, in fact, a leftist, and in at least a couple of those categories myself!) And in their darker moments, a lot of them are prone to thinking "All of these things are happening now, and Biden isn't doing a goddamn thing about any of them, but at least under Trump maybe the goddamn liberals would care and be in the streets with us."
And you know? I don't agree with that calculus, but i also can't with any certainty tell them they're wrong.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:38 PM on May 29 [24 favorites]
Here's the thing. I know a whole lot of leftists, and a whole lot of them are queer and/or trans and/or nonwhite and/or female and/or otherwise at the very sharp end of the stick which is the American Empire. (I am, in fact, a leftist, and in at least a couple of those categories myself!) And in their darker moments, a lot of them are prone to thinking "All of these things are happening now, and Biden isn't doing a goddamn thing about any of them, but at least under Trump maybe the goddamn liberals would care and be in the streets with us."
And you know? I don't agree with that calculus, but i also can't with any certainty tell them they're wrong.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:38 PM on May 29 [24 favorites]
"All of these things are happening now, and Biden isn't doing a goddamn thing about any of them, but at least under Trump maybe the goddamn liberals would care and be in the streets with us."
Everyone saw what happened with the border and Gaza is going to be exactly like that.
posted by Artw at 3:41 PM on May 29 [7 favorites]
Everyone saw what happened with the border and Gaza is going to be exactly like that.
posted by Artw at 3:41 PM on May 29 [7 favorites]
I will bet you any amount of money you would like to wager that if Trump wins in 2024 four years later there will be another election and if MetaFilter is still viable at that time there will be a thread just like this one where people will be saying this time for really-real we need to vote.
I don't hold with those who say there won't be any more elections. Of course there will be. They had one in Russia in March. I encourage people to add "meaningful" as an adjective.
posted by tclark at 3:42 PM on May 29 [9 favorites]
I don't hold with those who say there won't be any more elections. Of course there will be. They had one in Russia in March. I encourage people to add "meaningful" as an adjective.
posted by tclark at 3:42 PM on May 29 [9 favorites]
What I like about these threads is how everyone in them assumes that anyone disagreeing with them is part of a monolithic behavior group working in lockstep and sharing the exact same reasons and justifications; no true leftist would ever vote/not vote for Biden, only a fake neolib centrist/reactionary accelerationist neofascist.
Anyway, keep up the good work, I'm sure that this time the vibrational frequency of shared outrage will echo through spacetime and retroactively give Trump a massive coronary as he comes down that fuckin' elevator.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 3:42 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
Anyway, keep up the good work, I'm sure that this time the vibrational frequency of shared outrage will echo through spacetime and retroactively give Trump a massive coronary as he comes down that fuckin' elevator.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 3:42 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
Did you just both-sides both-siding? Power move.
posted by Artw at 3:48 PM on May 29 [12 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:48 PM on May 29 [12 favorites]
interesting that some older voters are primarily motivated by money were younger voters are motivated by a future
posted by clavdivs at 3:49 PM on May 29 [7 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 3:49 PM on May 29 [7 favorites]
Did you just both-sides both-siding? Power move.
To match my power tie.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 3:52 PM on May 29 [11 favorites]
To match my power tie.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 3:52 PM on May 29 [11 favorites]
Obviously this is more of reflective of the demographics of a different platform, but @ExileGrimm:
Though: not entirely sure what will constitute a swing state this election. Kinda leery about Michigan.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:56 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
I'm going to be very clear, I don't care who you're going to vote for for president and you shouldn't care who I'm going to vote for for president because 80% of us live in NY/CA/TX and other already won states.Now, even in this thread itself we see posts from people who live in swing states, so this is definitely not a universal phenomenon. If I had to guess though, most of the people who are refusing to vote for Biden because of his Mideast policy are those who are already living in blue states, or blue diamond college towns in red states, anyway.
If you're spending serious time delving into people's presidential voting habits you're just spinning your wheels in mud because their vote is likely a total non-issue.
Screaming at someone who lives in Bedstuy about not voting is just not smart, their vote doesn't matter and they're probably fucking with you anyways.
[...]
But on a functional level if you view Biden's election as overwhelmingly important in such a deep and profound way, you're not actually doing anything talking to the coastal elite about it.
Though: not entirely sure what will constitute a swing state this election. Kinda leery about Michigan.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:56 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
I think a lot of the people getting hectored about stopping Trump are indeed doing everything they can to stop Trump. The fear is just so strong, and we have learned that we can't attack Republicans effectively, so we yell at each other.
posted by tofu_crouton at 3:57 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 3:57 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
Strongly suspect the liberal centrists types doing the screaming about votes don’t actually vote all that much more than the people they scream at, probably less.
posted by Artw at 3:59 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:59 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
Eh, we all know there won't be. There will be a lot of posts about pitchforks and tumbrels, and that'll be about the end of it, same as always.
Blood is going to be spilled in the case of a Trump win. Honestly, probably in the case of a Biden win, too. Covid, January 6th, Ferguson, the BLM protests. This country has changed. The illusion of unshakeable norms and a nation that acts in the interest of all its people is broken. The fascists and the anti-fascists know that. I don't think these will be peaceful protests.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 4:12 PM on May 29 [13 favorites]
Blood is going to be spilled in the case of a Trump win. Honestly, probably in the case of a Biden win, too. Covid, January 6th, Ferguson, the BLM protests. This country has changed. The illusion of unshakeable norms and a nation that acts in the interest of all its people is broken. The fascists and the anti-fascists know that. I don't think these will be peaceful protests.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 4:12 PM on May 29 [13 favorites]
But to answer your first question, we want to bring more NET people into the coalition. It's important to understand that something designed to appeal to leftists is both a) going to drive away people at the other end of the coalition, and b) almost inevitably going to result in the vast majority of said leftists turning up their noses and calling it Not Good Enough.
There is some truth to this. Some. But it is not the complete story, either.
It's also important to understand that something designed to appeal to "moderate Republicans" is both a) going to drive away people at the other end of the coalition, and b) almost inevitably going to result in the vast majority of said "moderate Republicans" voting for the Republican anyway because that is what they do unless the Republican alternative is a complete and utter dumpster fire -- and often even then.
People have heard "THIS is the most important election of our lifetimes" at every single election cycle for the past 30 years, and they have watched the Oval Office and Congress change hands repeatedly; sometimes it's one party in control, sometimes the other party, sometimes partisan gridlock. Whether it's inflation or recession, a Good Economy[tm] or a national crisis, so many people feel like what they want out of life continues to slip further out of their reach. Thanks to the Turtle's skullduggery, SCOTUS and other court systems have decayed steadily no matter which party has been on top.
When the alternative is a biblical disaster like Trump, voting for the non-tyrannical caretaker IS important... but if what you want and need and know is right is getting shut out because it won't play in the Cleaver household in some faraway swing-state suburb, getting the umph up to support the non-tyrannical caretaker loses much of its shine.
posted by delfin at 4:12 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
There is some truth to this. Some. But it is not the complete story, either.
It's also important to understand that something designed to appeal to "moderate Republicans" is both a) going to drive away people at the other end of the coalition, and b) almost inevitably going to result in the vast majority of said "moderate Republicans" voting for the Republican anyway because that is what they do unless the Republican alternative is a complete and utter dumpster fire -- and often even then.
People have heard "THIS is the most important election of our lifetimes" at every single election cycle for the past 30 years, and they have watched the Oval Office and Congress change hands repeatedly; sometimes it's one party in control, sometimes the other party, sometimes partisan gridlock. Whether it's inflation or recession, a Good Economy[tm] or a national crisis, so many people feel like what they want out of life continues to slip further out of their reach. Thanks to the Turtle's skullduggery, SCOTUS and other court systems have decayed steadily no matter which party has been on top.
When the alternative is a biblical disaster like Trump, voting for the non-tyrannical caretaker IS important... but if what you want and need and know is right is getting shut out because it won't play in the Cleaver household in some faraway swing-state suburb, getting the umph up to support the non-tyrannical caretaker loses much of its shine.
posted by delfin at 4:12 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
The illusion of unshakeable norms and a nation that acts in the interest of all its people is broken.
As someone who came of age during the Bush era, I'd argue it's been that way for a quarter century at least, never mind Iran-Contra, Watergate, the Gulf of Tonkin, and all that came before.
posted by Apocryphon at 4:16 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
As someone who came of age during the Bush era, I'd argue it's been that way for a quarter century at least, never mind Iran-Contra, Watergate, the Gulf of Tonkin, and all that came before.
posted by Apocryphon at 4:16 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
If the bad guys get entrenched enough to have their own Cultural Revolution, a lot of people are gonna wish they hadn't been too good for voting. Voting is the easiest way you are ever gonna stop these guys. Everything after that costs real money.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 4:18 PM on May 29 [14 favorites]
posted by Sing Or Swim at 4:18 PM on May 29 [14 favorites]
You're not wrong, but you do you know that what you've said has been repeated since 2004 at least?
And maybe you wouldn't have been wrong to say that for those elections then, either. Except it looks like far less a Cultural Revolution, and more like a Long March.
posted by Apocryphon at 4:21 PM on May 29 [4 favorites]
And maybe you wouldn't have been wrong to say that for those elections then, either. Except it looks like far less a Cultural Revolution, and more like a Long March.
posted by Apocryphon at 4:21 PM on May 29 [4 favorites]
The thing about crime is it’s mostly a vibes thing. Any attempt to materially change things in the world rather than appeal to the vibes is a complete waste of time. And the vibes are mostly based on knee jerk lizard brain shit that republicans utterly control, so Dems campaigning against Repubs on crime toughness are just going to get crushed like the losers they are.
I find it vaguely ironic that most people's complaints about the economy are about as much vibes as crime. As in: not backed by data. Is there inflation? Yes. Is it outpaced by wage growth? Also yes. Is there crime? Also yes, even though it's not as bad at media coverage. Vibes matter, clearly, more than data, to people on both sides of the political spectrum, and the negative bent works against incumbents of all sorts. I wish we wouldn't pick and choose our vibes. Consider that people who care about crime might sometimes have reasons beyond the media, in the same way that some people are negatively impacted in the current economy, despite both being by the numbers better than the recent past. I'm not holding my breath that mefi will escape its total doom narrative, but I sure do pray that it's not a sign of a larger self-fulfilling prophecy.
posted by ch1x0r at 4:27 PM on May 29 [4 favorites]
I find it vaguely ironic that most people's complaints about the economy are about as much vibes as crime. As in: not backed by data. Is there inflation? Yes. Is it outpaced by wage growth? Also yes. Is there crime? Also yes, even though it's not as bad at media coverage. Vibes matter, clearly, more than data, to people on both sides of the political spectrum, and the negative bent works against incumbents of all sorts. I wish we wouldn't pick and choose our vibes. Consider that people who care about crime might sometimes have reasons beyond the media, in the same way that some people are negatively impacted in the current economy, despite both being by the numbers better than the recent past. I'm not holding my breath that mefi will escape its total doom narrative, but I sure do pray that it's not a sign of a larger self-fulfilling prophecy.
posted by ch1x0r at 4:27 PM on May 29 [4 favorites]
It's also important to understand that something designed to appeal to "moderate Republicans" is both a) going to drive away people at the other end of the coalition, and b) almost inevitably going to result in the vast majority of said "moderate Republicans" voting for the Republican anyway because that is what they do unless the Republican alternative is a complete and utter dumpster fire -- and often even then.
You're not wrong, but I'm not really speaking about "moderate Republicans", though I don't doubt that Biden will try to get a bunch of those Haley voters to vote Biden—they're ripe for the picking and much more efficiently distributed, geographically—even though Haley herself bent the knee and not incidentally signed bombs headed for Gaza with "finish them", just in case anyone needed a reminder that "both sides are not the same". I'm talking about bread and butter Democrats who like higher minimum wages but are kind of socially conservative and don't care for street protestors or performative politics at all.
So I don't know. As of today I don't see myself voting for Biden. Maybe something will change before November. I'm in a solidly blue state so that doesn't matter much anyway
So basically, you're saying that you're relying on those awful "centrists" to keep your state blue so that you can indulge your feelings. Can you see for a minute that it's not really about you?
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 4:30 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
You're not wrong, but I'm not really speaking about "moderate Republicans", though I don't doubt that Biden will try to get a bunch of those Haley voters to vote Biden—they're ripe for the picking and much more efficiently distributed, geographically—even though Haley herself bent the knee and not incidentally signed bombs headed for Gaza with "finish them", just in case anyone needed a reminder that "both sides are not the same". I'm talking about bread and butter Democrats who like higher minimum wages but are kind of socially conservative and don't care for street protestors or performative politics at all.
So I don't know. As of today I don't see myself voting for Biden. Maybe something will change before November. I'm in a solidly blue state so that doesn't matter much anyway
So basically, you're saying that you're relying on those awful "centrists" to keep your state blue so that you can indulge your feelings. Can you see for a minute that it's not really about you?
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 4:30 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
so far the Vote for Biden sounds a lot like a vote for less genocide
people are supposed to vote for less genocide, I'm just going to sit with that for a spell
Yes, we are supposed to vote for less genocide. This argument might hold water if a third-party vote or not voting would actually reduce Palestinian deaths, but it's not going to. A third-party vote or a refusal to vote is not going to resurrect a single Palestinian life.
posted by jonp72 at 4:30 PM on May 29 [14 favorites]
people are supposed to vote for less genocide, I'm just going to sit with that for a spell
Yes, we are supposed to vote for less genocide. This argument might hold water if a third-party vote or not voting would actually reduce Palestinian deaths, but it's not going to. A third-party vote or a refusal to vote is not going to resurrect a single Palestinian life.
posted by jonp72 at 4:30 PM on May 29 [14 favorites]
People have heard "THIS is the most important election of our lifetimes" at every single election cycle for the past 30 years, and they have watched the Oval Office and Congress change hands repeatedly; sometimes it's one party in control, sometimes the other party, sometimes partisan gridlock.
Since Eisenhower, the only GOP President who I could confidently say did not have an appetite for dictatorship (yes that's a low bar) is George HW Bush, but except for Donald Trump they seemed to prefer to govern rather than rule. Donald wants nothing more than to rule -- and as such he is singular in at least the last 150 years the degree to which he, personally, is a threat to the very existence of a meaningful American democracy. And yes, every Presidential election is that important if for literally no other reason than the preservation of post-WW2 SCOTUS jurisprudence rather than it's steady dismantling. But for a few dozen votes and Sandra Day O'Connor, Al Gore would have won in 2000. But for a few thousand votes, but also thanks more than any other single person to James Comey, Clinton would have won in 2016.
They're important because, due to errors in our constitutional makeup, the elections have been extremely close, and that means at least in swing states, every vote REALLY DOES count. And because so much of voting regrettably is based on "vibes" even though Trump won in 2016 having lost the general tally by millions of votes, all those millions of votes even in blue states mattered. Every vote matters, even if the smallest amount only is another digit on the list of people who say "fuck Trump and his GOP and everyone who support them."
posted by tclark at 4:31 PM on May 29 [9 favorites]
Since Eisenhower, the only GOP President who I could confidently say did not have an appetite for dictatorship (yes that's a low bar) is George HW Bush, but except for Donald Trump they seemed to prefer to govern rather than rule. Donald wants nothing more than to rule -- and as such he is singular in at least the last 150 years the degree to which he, personally, is a threat to the very existence of a meaningful American democracy. And yes, every Presidential election is that important if for literally no other reason than the preservation of post-WW2 SCOTUS jurisprudence rather than it's steady dismantling. But for a few dozen votes and Sandra Day O'Connor, Al Gore would have won in 2000. But for a few thousand votes, but also thanks more than any other single person to James Comey, Clinton would have won in 2016.
They're important because, due to errors in our constitutional makeup, the elections have been extremely close, and that means at least in swing states, every vote REALLY DOES count. And because so much of voting regrettably is based on "vibes" even though Trump won in 2016 having lost the general tally by millions of votes, all those millions of votes even in blue states mattered. Every vote matters, even if the smallest amount only is another digit on the list of people who say "fuck Trump and his GOP and everyone who support them."
posted by tclark at 4:31 PM on May 29 [9 favorites]
As in: not backed by data. Is there inflation? Yes. Is it outpaced by wage growth? Also yes.
One of these is equally distributed. One of them is not.
posted by furnace.heart at 4:32 PM on May 29 [17 favorites]
One of these is equally distributed. One of them is not.
posted by furnace.heart at 4:32 PM on May 29 [17 favorites]
all those millions of votes even in blue states mattered. Every vote matters, even if the smallest amount only is another digit on the list of people who say "fuck Trump and his GOP and everyone who support them."
I'm sorry, but I recall seeing Twitter'ers haranguing solid state voters back in 2020 about how boosting the popular vote was a moral imperative in order to demonstrate the mandate that Biden had, to build legitimacy. (Incidentally, Ken Bone was one of those targets, after declaring that he was voting for Jo Jorgensen from the state of Illinois.) And guess what? The MAGA base and many GOP figures embraced election fraud conspiracism. They just built an entire post-QAnon religion around ballot dumps, complete with court cases and shady statisticians. Every time you try to do things right, they'll just find a way to cut around that corner anyway. They will never admit defeat.
posted by Apocryphon at 4:40 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
I'm sorry, but I recall seeing Twitter'ers haranguing solid state voters back in 2020 about how boosting the popular vote was a moral imperative in order to demonstrate the mandate that Biden had, to build legitimacy. (Incidentally, Ken Bone was one of those targets, after declaring that he was voting for Jo Jorgensen from the state of Illinois.) And guess what? The MAGA base and many GOP figures embraced election fraud conspiracism. They just built an entire post-QAnon religion around ballot dumps, complete with court cases and shady statisticians. Every time you try to do things right, they'll just find a way to cut around that corner anyway. They will never admit defeat.
posted by Apocryphon at 4:40 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
As in: not backed by data. Is there inflation? Yes. Is it outpaced by wage growth? Also yes.
One of these is equally distributed. One of them is not.
One of them has me paying into a bunch of GoFundMes so people can eat, the other is mostly the downtown business association jacking off at the idea of giving cops a new tank to crush homeless people with.
posted by Artw at 4:43 PM on May 29 [16 favorites]
One of these is equally distributed. One of them is not.
One of them has me paying into a bunch of GoFundMes so people can eat, the other is mostly the downtown business association jacking off at the idea of giving cops a new tank to crush homeless people with.
posted by Artw at 4:43 PM on May 29 [16 favorites]
even though Trump won in 2016 having lost the general tally by millions of votes, all those millions of votes even in blue states mattered.
Cannot underscore heavily enough how much the popular vote is not a thing that matters and not a thing you should give a shit about.
It should be, it isn’t.
posted by Artw at 4:45 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
Cannot underscore heavily enough how much the popular vote is not a thing that matters and not a thing you should give a shit about.
It should be, it isn’t.
posted by Artw at 4:45 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
"Haley herself bent the knee and not incidentally signed bombs headed for Gaza with "finish them", just in case anyone needed a reminder that "both sides are not the same"
Oh I'm sorry I missed the part where Biden bold didn't authorize or send those bombs due to his Executive Authority.
I'm so tired of fucking hippie-punching, especially when you're trying to pretend like you're somehow "one of the hippies" while sending those bombs, and then say "nope, that totally wasn't us, and see, SHE signed it. and besides if you don't vote for us, you're gonna get THEM."
It's gonna suck we know this, most of us end up falling in line, but dear god just stop hitting us while we continue to suck D.
posted by symbioid at 4:47 PM on May 29 [9 favorites]
Oh I'm sorry I missed the part where Biden bold didn't authorize or send those bombs due to his Executive Authority.
I'm so tired of fucking hippie-punching, especially when you're trying to pretend like you're somehow "one of the hippies" while sending those bombs, and then say "nope, that totally wasn't us, and see, SHE signed it. and besides if you don't vote for us, you're gonna get THEM."
It's gonna suck we know this, most of us end up falling in line, but dear god just stop hitting us while we continue to suck D.
posted by symbioid at 4:47 PM on May 29 [9 favorites]
So basically, you're saying that you're relying on those awful "centrists" to keep your state blue so that you can indulge your feelings. Can you see for a minute that it's not really about you?
So it isn't sufficient someone do every practical thing to oppose Trump, they also have vote for the genocidal old bastard because.... why? This seems like it has a lot more to do with your desire to start a fight with people to your left than any genuine opposition to those to your right.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 4:48 PM on May 29 [9 favorites]
So it isn't sufficient someone do every practical thing to oppose Trump, they also have vote for the genocidal old bastard because.... why? This seems like it has a lot more to do with your desire to start a fight with people to your left than any genuine opposition to those to your right.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 4:48 PM on May 29 [9 favorites]
Biden sending a powerful message by not personally signing the GBU-39 glide bomb used in the refugee camp massacre.
posted by Artw at 4:49 PM on May 29 [12 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:49 PM on May 29 [12 favorites]
I just want to make clear that Biden could shut up all us fiery leftists in one minute if he stopped arming Israel. That's where this is coming from. People were unhappy with, angry at and still with minor exception willing to vote for Biden back before October, and I remember because I was one of them. Before October, there was no question in my mind that I would vote for Biden despite my frustrations, just as I voted for both Clintons, Obama, Gore, etc. The vast majority of people on the left who vote in presidential elections were gearing up to do our usual suck-it-up-for-the-lesser-evil routine.
It is the Biden administration which has decided that it would rather try the difficult strategy of committing genocide against a small population of trapped, starving civilians while trying to silence or co-opt critics. The Biden administration would rather burn Gazan babies to death in their tents than get my vote.
As I say, I've put up with a lot from the Democratic party over the years. They don't have to do much to get me to vote for them. But my god, the worm finds itself turning now. There is some shit I will not eat, as the poet said.
Want my vote? Stop killing babies in Gaza and the rest can go under the bridge with all the other broken promises and failed plans. This is about Biden and his choices, not about my bad citizenship.
posted by Frowner at 4:54 PM on May 29 [37 favorites]
It is the Biden administration which has decided that it would rather try the difficult strategy of committing genocide against a small population of trapped, starving civilians while trying to silence or co-opt critics. The Biden administration would rather burn Gazan babies to death in their tents than get my vote.
As I say, I've put up with a lot from the Democratic party over the years. They don't have to do much to get me to vote for them. But my god, the worm finds itself turning now. There is some shit I will not eat, as the poet said.
Want my vote? Stop killing babies in Gaza and the rest can go under the bridge with all the other broken promises and failed plans. This is about Biden and his choices, not about my bad citizenship.
posted by Frowner at 4:54 PM on May 29 [37 favorites]
Just like reactionaries are incapable of understanding that nobody else thinks cruelty is funny, fiery leftists are incapable of understanding that nobody else can stand them, and certainly won't put them in positions of power.
Personally, I think that argument would hold a lot more water if Joe Biden weren't currently being outmatched by a guy who's probably about to be convicted of a felony. Yes, I think a center right democrat is what Americans wanted -- in 1996. They didn't want one in 2000, they definitely didn't want one in 2004, they didn't want one in 2008 but they got one because everyone thought for some reason they were voting for a radical, they...okay, maybe they actually did want one in 2012 but they SOUNDLY rejected one in 2016, and in 2020 I think they just wanted anyone who was not Donald Trump. Turns out "anyone" may have been too broad a qualification.
I think there have been times when Americans wanted a center right democrat, but I don't think we've lived in one of those times for a decade or so.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:12 PM on May 29 [12 favorites]
Personally, I think that argument would hold a lot more water if Joe Biden weren't currently being outmatched by a guy who's probably about to be convicted of a felony. Yes, I think a center right democrat is what Americans wanted -- in 1996. They didn't want one in 2000, they definitely didn't want one in 2004, they didn't want one in 2008 but they got one because everyone thought for some reason they were voting for a radical, they...okay, maybe they actually did want one in 2012 but they SOUNDLY rejected one in 2016, and in 2020 I think they just wanted anyone who was not Donald Trump. Turns out "anyone" may have been too broad a qualification.
I think there have been times when Americans wanted a center right democrat, but I don't think we've lived in one of those times for a decade or so.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:12 PM on May 29 [12 favorites]
I think part of the communication problem is that for a lot of us- myself included- there's a sort of understanding that you vote for the lesser evil, no matter what. That votes are not endorsements, that the system is lying when it valorizes itself, that liberal democracy talks bigger than it delivers, that your personal engagement as a voter qua voting doesn't actually mean very much, and you just do what you can to maybe make it a bit less worse, and that's common sense, isn't it? Of course it is. The smart move is to vote for for the person you find the least hateful and awful and move on to the non-voting parts.
The catch to that, though? When this feels like common sense to you, and it does to me, it can start to look very stupid that a lot of people can't see it- that they look at politics, at The System, whatever, and draw different conclusions about it. And you end up in arguments with people who don't see it the way you do, where you're screaming at them that they're being stupid and making the wrong choice in part because the first paragraph I typed seems so obvious and intrinsic that anybody who doesn't see that way is either lying or so goddamned stupid they shouldn't be trusted to feed themselves.
The thing I want to communicate, if you see it like me, is that even if your worst suspicions about people are right- even if your most ungenerous and wounded feelings are correct and they're just too stupid to see the obvious, patent reality- yelling at them is not going to change their minds. You are not going to convince somebody that they're wrong to be disgusted by the idea of voting for Genocide Joe by talking to them like they're stupid, not any more than you are going to convince a dinner date to get Chinese instead of pizza because they're stupid for wanting pizza. The impression you will give by screaming at them that they're idiots, especially when that idiot-calling is accompanied by signals like "you're stupid" and "you're lazy" and "you're dishonest", will not be that you are a reasonable person who they should listen to. It will be that you are a huge asshole that they are correct to disagree with.
And I mean, it doesn't even read like an attempt at persuasion. When you want to get somebody on your side, to recruit them for a cause, do you scream abuse at them? Do you tell them what a shit they are for not already being on side? Do you treat them like an equal that has something you want, and figure out a way to get them to give it to you? Or do you treat them as somebody who has stolen something from you? What do you communicate about how you see a person, and how you see the issue you are arguing over, when you argue like that?
I've been on Metafilter a long time. Seventeen years, last month. And I'll be the first to tell you, even before the people who had to deal with me back then, I used to be a huge asshole here. Sometimes I still am, and I'm sorry for that, but I was so much worse back in the day. Sometimes I get a random fave on an old comment, or stumble across an old thread in a Google search, and I read old threads I was in, and even on topics I was on the right side of, I frequently think: Christ, what an asshole. Did I change any minds, talking to people like this? Some people liked it, because they agreed with me and it's satisfying to see somebody you agree with be a dick to people you don't. Did I do anything but entertain them? Did I do anything but feel better about myself, for being vicious to people I was sure I was better than? Did I do any actual good, talking like that?
I don't think I did.
I don't think anybody does.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:14 PM on May 29 [34 favorites]
The catch to that, though? When this feels like common sense to you, and it does to me, it can start to look very stupid that a lot of people can't see it- that they look at politics, at The System, whatever, and draw different conclusions about it. And you end up in arguments with people who don't see it the way you do, where you're screaming at them that they're being stupid and making the wrong choice in part because the first paragraph I typed seems so obvious and intrinsic that anybody who doesn't see that way is either lying or so goddamned stupid they shouldn't be trusted to feed themselves.
The thing I want to communicate, if you see it like me, is that even if your worst suspicions about people are right- even if your most ungenerous and wounded feelings are correct and they're just too stupid to see the obvious, patent reality- yelling at them is not going to change their minds. You are not going to convince somebody that they're wrong to be disgusted by the idea of voting for Genocide Joe by talking to them like they're stupid, not any more than you are going to convince a dinner date to get Chinese instead of pizza because they're stupid for wanting pizza. The impression you will give by screaming at them that they're idiots, especially when that idiot-calling is accompanied by signals like "you're stupid" and "you're lazy" and "you're dishonest", will not be that you are a reasonable person who they should listen to. It will be that you are a huge asshole that they are correct to disagree with.
And I mean, it doesn't even read like an attempt at persuasion. When you want to get somebody on your side, to recruit them for a cause, do you scream abuse at them? Do you tell them what a shit they are for not already being on side? Do you treat them like an equal that has something you want, and figure out a way to get them to give it to you? Or do you treat them as somebody who has stolen something from you? What do you communicate about how you see a person, and how you see the issue you are arguing over, when you argue like that?
I've been on Metafilter a long time. Seventeen years, last month. And I'll be the first to tell you, even before the people who had to deal with me back then, I used to be a huge asshole here. Sometimes I still am, and I'm sorry for that, but I was so much worse back in the day. Sometimes I get a random fave on an old comment, or stumble across an old thread in a Google search, and I read old threads I was in, and even on topics I was on the right side of, I frequently think: Christ, what an asshole. Did I change any minds, talking to people like this? Some people liked it, because they agreed with me and it's satisfying to see somebody you agree with be a dick to people you don't. Did I do anything but entertain them? Did I do anything but feel better about myself, for being vicious to people I was sure I was better than? Did I do any actual good, talking like that?
I don't think I did.
I don't think anybody does.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:14 PM on May 29 [34 favorites]
Also: six months before the election, nobody is voting yet. Someone expressing that they are going to withhold their vote, at this point, is a perfectly valid political strategy, and in fact is the only fucking leverage they have unless they're a gazillionaire.
Some of the folks who say "I'm not voting for Biden unless he stops being a genocidaire" will, in fact, go ahead and vote for Biden in November, because they know the stakes just as well as you do. Here in May 2024, you're not even "vote shaming" them, because you don't fucking know how they will actually vote; all you are doing is making yourself feel better by telling them, in just about as many words, to shut the fuck up.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:30 PM on May 29 [40 favorites]
Some of the folks who say "I'm not voting for Biden unless he stops being a genocidaire" will, in fact, go ahead and vote for Biden in November, because they know the stakes just as well as you do. Here in May 2024, you're not even "vote shaming" them, because you don't fucking know how they will actually vote; all you are doing is making yourself feel better by telling them, in just about as many words, to shut the fuck up.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:30 PM on May 29 [40 favorites]
(Adam Johnson made this point about vote-shaming and preemptive loyalty pledges really well on The Column, a couple months back.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:35 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:35 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
Why can't Biden just say "Israel is our ally but they need to stop this genocide". Is that so hard? The country may be an ally but Netanyahu isn't and he's the one leading the genocide (with US help of course). Just say we support Israel but they have to stop the genocide. It's not hard.
posted by downtohisturtles at 5:38 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
posted by downtohisturtles at 5:38 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
Because Biden doesn't actually think Palestinians are human, and he supports everything Israel is doing.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:49 PM on May 29 [13 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:49 PM on May 29 [13 favorites]
When this feels like common sense to you, and it does to me, it can start to look very stupid that a lot of people can't see it- that they look at politics, at The System, whatever, and draw different conclusions about it.
Some people see a good cop and a bad cop, other people see a routine
posted by Geoff Epstein (no relation) at 6:30 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
Some people see a good cop and a bad cop, other people see a routine
posted by Geoff Epstein (no relation) at 6:30 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
Joseph Tainter argues persuasively that most Roman subjects benefitted from the collapse of the Roman empire, Slackermagee. It'll almost surely benefit most humans, whenever the US loses its conventional force projection capabilities, likely even benefit most first world citizens.
Joseph Tainter also observes that elites shielding themselves from consequences predicts real collapse, which really sounds familiar.
Anyways "2024 is a pivotal year for global politics, with elections impacting half the world's population" (search). We'll have plenty of elections more important than Trump v Biden, like India of course, but even Europe.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:33 PM on May 29 [6 favorites]
Joseph Tainter also observes that elites shielding themselves from consequences predicts real collapse, which really sounds familiar.
Anyways "2024 is a pivotal year for global politics, with elections impacting half the world's population" (search). We'll have plenty of elections more important than Trump v Biden, like India of course, but even Europe.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:33 PM on May 29 [6 favorites]
Why can't Biden just say "Israel is our ally but they need to stop this genocide". Is that so hard? The country may be an ally but Netanyahu isn't and he's the one leading the genocide (with US help of course). Just say we support Israel but they have to stop the genocide. It's not hard.
don't forget the important feelings of rich donors and their proxies who consider anything but the mildest criticism of israel - much less action to stop them doing evil things - to be the rankest betrayal of the highest ideals ....and that said criticism/action will launch said donors and their proxies into the arms of the republicans who will protect the world from the evil hamas etc. etc
posted by lalochezia at 6:56 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
I think a lot of Gen X progressives are still actively voting, but are disillusioned all the same. This is because of the Democratic Party's continued belief that maybe just maybe bipartisanship isn't dead.
This means that only the most right center candidates generally win, when we'd need slates of fiery leftists with bold policy ideas to actually drum up any voter enthusiasm.
We just keep watching our party drift ever rightward.
Huh? The Democratic Party is more progressive now than it's been since, probably, the early '80s.
It's WAY more progressive than it was at the end of the Clinton era.
Dems have largely abandoned austerity economics, cutting Social Security, and so many other bad policies of that time -- stuff that Obama was still flirting with a decade ago. They've moved miles to the left on LGBTQ issues. The Biden administration has made absolutely gobsmackingly huge moves on renewable energy, carbon emissions, EVs, environmental justice, limiting fossil fuel extraction on federal land, and related issues. It's also largely abandoned the "free trade all the time" mantra that the party embraced in the '90s. Industrial policy is back, baby!
Biden has forgiven more student loans, by multiple orders of magnitude, than any president in history. As of today, he appointed his 200th federal judge -- and has appointed more black and female judges than any president before. He ended the U.S.'s longest war shortly after entering office, and has reduced U.S. drone strikes to nearly zero. He chose the first woman, the first black person, and the first Asian as his VP, and appointed the first black female justice to SCOTUS.
I know the usual suspects here will still call him "an old racist man" because vibes, of course.
But if you, you know, actually look at policy over time, Biden and his party are more progressive than they've been in a generation.
Stop paying attention to internet echo chambers and start paying attention to reliable information sources.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 7:23 PM on May 29 [20 favorites]
This means that only the most right center candidates generally win, when we'd need slates of fiery leftists with bold policy ideas to actually drum up any voter enthusiasm.
We just keep watching our party drift ever rightward.
Huh? The Democratic Party is more progressive now than it's been since, probably, the early '80s.
It's WAY more progressive than it was at the end of the Clinton era.
Dems have largely abandoned austerity economics, cutting Social Security, and so many other bad policies of that time -- stuff that Obama was still flirting with a decade ago. They've moved miles to the left on LGBTQ issues. The Biden administration has made absolutely gobsmackingly huge moves on renewable energy, carbon emissions, EVs, environmental justice, limiting fossil fuel extraction on federal land, and related issues. It's also largely abandoned the "free trade all the time" mantra that the party embraced in the '90s. Industrial policy is back, baby!
Biden has forgiven more student loans, by multiple orders of magnitude, than any president in history. As of today, he appointed his 200th federal judge -- and has appointed more black and female judges than any president before. He ended the U.S.'s longest war shortly after entering office, and has reduced U.S. drone strikes to nearly zero. He chose the first woman, the first black person, and the first Asian as his VP, and appointed the first black female justice to SCOTUS.
I know the usual suspects here will still call him "an old racist man" because vibes, of course.
But if you, you know, actually look at policy over time, Biden and his party are more progressive than they've been in a generation.
Stop paying attention to internet echo chambers and start paying attention to reliable information sources.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 7:23 PM on May 29 [20 favorites]
Maybe Biden would have less racist "vibes" if he stopped helping Netanyahu carry out a genocide.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:33 PM on May 29 [16 favorites]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:33 PM on May 29 [16 favorites]
Men, anyone? Men and heirarchy?
posted by kneecapped at 7:41 PM on May 29
posted by kneecapped at 7:41 PM on May 29
I blame Cicero.
posted by clavdivs at 7:48 PM on May 29 [6 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 7:48 PM on May 29 [6 favorites]
Maybe Biden would have less racist "vibes" if he stopped helping Netanyahu carry out a genocide.
How will withholding ones vote prevent that? Will Trump winning prevent that? No, it will be worse, not just for Gaza, but the West bank as well, not to mention other countries as well as the domestic terror his minions will unleash. Trump will likely discontinue any food aid to Gaza, redirect all Ukraine weapons shipments to Israel and the slaughter will escalate dramatically, both there and in Ukraine. Voting for Biden will prevent that.
Think of it this way: voting for Biden will save hundreds of thousands of Palestinian and European lives. This is a trolley problem and there are only two tracks.
posted by CynicalKnight at 7:58 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
How will withholding ones vote prevent that? Will Trump winning prevent that? No, it will be worse, not just for Gaza, but the West bank as well, not to mention other countries as well as the domestic terror his minions will unleash. Trump will likely discontinue any food aid to Gaza, redirect all Ukraine weapons shipments to Israel and the slaughter will escalate dramatically, both there and in Ukraine. Voting for Biden will prevent that.
Think of it this way: voting for Biden will save hundreds of thousands of Palestinian and European lives. This is a trolley problem and there are only two tracks.
posted by CynicalKnight at 7:58 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
How will withholding ones vote prevent that?
Who says it will? It doesn't change that Biden is perceived as a racist for his racist actions, not some vague animus against him.
If Biden if losing votes because he keeps murdering children, maybe that is a problem with him, rather than the voters.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:00 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
Who says it will? It doesn't change that Biden is perceived as a racist for his racist actions, not some vague animus against him.
If Biden if losing votes because he keeps murdering children, maybe that is a problem with him, rather than the voters.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:00 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
So, take Semafor with a grain of salt.
Chinese companies
Semafor has received criticism for its relationship with persons or entities with ties to the Chinese Communist Party (CCP).[20] In January 2023, Voice of America reported that Semafor received sponsorship funding from Chinese e-commerce giant, Alibaba Group.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 8:04 PM on May 29 [1 favorite]
Chinese companies
Semafor has received criticism for its relationship with persons or entities with ties to the Chinese Communist Party (CCP).[20] In January 2023, Voice of America reported that Semafor received sponsorship funding from Chinese e-commerce giant, Alibaba Group.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 8:04 PM on May 29 [1 favorite]
I can assure everyone the child murdering is unpopular.
posted by Artw at 8:12 PM on May 29 [11 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:12 PM on May 29 [11 favorites]
I know I'm posting all sorts of contrarian takes in this discussion, but I generally think that it's a debate that's been done every election for a few decades now. To once again source my info from Twitter, today this post from a random citizen expressing surprise about the process has garnered a lot of more-knowing-than-thou responses about uneducated voters or disengaged voters.
But the thing is, general elections usually have a turnout in the 60s. 2020 hit a record high at 66.3%, which is great (I have to wonder if it's because the pandemic forced vote-by-mail), but that's still a ton of non-voters out there. A lot of whom I doubt are actually boycotting the election because they think it's rigged, man. Some are politically disengaged. Some are voter suppressed. Some are... I'm sure there are more reasons. The thing is, maybe instead of yelling at those in your ostensible camp which are sitting this one out because of personal scruples, or trying to appeal to that mythical moderate crossover vote in the other camp, maybe focus on trying to sell your case to that over 30% of the electorate, or help them get registered to vote?
posted by Apocryphon at 8:40 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
But the thing is, general elections usually have a turnout in the 60s. 2020 hit a record high at 66.3%, which is great (I have to wonder if it's because the pandemic forced vote-by-mail), but that's still a ton of non-voters out there. A lot of whom I doubt are actually boycotting the election because they think it's rigged, man. Some are politically disengaged. Some are voter suppressed. Some are... I'm sure there are more reasons. The thing is, maybe instead of yelling at those in your ostensible camp which are sitting this one out because of personal scruples, or trying to appeal to that mythical moderate crossover vote in the other camp, maybe focus on trying to sell your case to that over 30% of the electorate, or help them get registered to vote?
posted by Apocryphon at 8:40 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
Yeah, I figured "Gaza" would be the nonresponse to all the stuff I posted about how the Democratic has, on countless metrics, moved to the left, not the right.
Nonetheless, I said what I said.
In many ways, this feels like a replay of 1968. We've got an older president, an extremely experienced veteran of the Senate, who served as another guy's VP before taking the top spot himself. He's got the most massive array of progressive accomplishments in a generation, thanks in no small part to his knowledge of how D.C. is wired, his ability to finesse things thru Congress, and the fact that precisely because he doesn't look like a bleeding heart liberal to people, he can actually get really big stuff done without setting off as many alarm bells on the right.
But the younger, more charismatic guy he veeped for is still more beloved by his party, despite having accomplished much less. Why? Because... vibes. Young and left-leaning folks just don't like the old dude. Don't bother them with facts, figures, and policy! He's an old white guy, and his vibes are off.
Certainly, it must be acknowledged: There is also a controversial war going on on the other side of the world, and the POTUS is linked to it. And many of those young and lefty folks are furious at him about it.
Still, there are 2 key differences between 2024 and 1968:
1. The war in Gaza isn't Biden's war, in the way that Vietnam was LBJ's war. Of course, Americans of all political stripes are afflicted with a really bad case of Main Character Syndrome, so the lefties accuse Biden of personally going to Gaza and killing Palestinian babies with his bare hands, rather than merely respecting longstanding aid agreements with a significant ally (that is in fact engaged in an extremely bloody, vicious, and poorly conceived military campaign). BUT: American kids aren't being drafted into this war. And it's actually relatively low on the priority list for most voters.
2. Biden hasn't dropped out, like LBJ did. LBJ's decision to throw in the towel certainly didn't end well for the Democratic party, or for progressive causes generally. So I'm glad Biden's sticking it out. He defeated Trump once before, and it's within his grasp to do it again.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:41 PM on May 29 [12 favorites]
Nonetheless, I said what I said.
In many ways, this feels like a replay of 1968. We've got an older president, an extremely experienced veteran of the Senate, who served as another guy's VP before taking the top spot himself. He's got the most massive array of progressive accomplishments in a generation, thanks in no small part to his knowledge of how D.C. is wired, his ability to finesse things thru Congress, and the fact that precisely because he doesn't look like a bleeding heart liberal to people, he can actually get really big stuff done without setting off as many alarm bells on the right.
But the younger, more charismatic guy he veeped for is still more beloved by his party, despite having accomplished much less. Why? Because... vibes. Young and left-leaning folks just don't like the old dude. Don't bother them with facts, figures, and policy! He's an old white guy, and his vibes are off.
Certainly, it must be acknowledged: There is also a controversial war going on on the other side of the world, and the POTUS is linked to it. And many of those young and lefty folks are furious at him about it.
Still, there are 2 key differences between 2024 and 1968:
1. The war in Gaza isn't Biden's war, in the way that Vietnam was LBJ's war. Of course, Americans of all political stripes are afflicted with a really bad case of Main Character Syndrome, so the lefties accuse Biden of personally going to Gaza and killing Palestinian babies with his bare hands, rather than merely respecting longstanding aid agreements with a significant ally (that is in fact engaged in an extremely bloody, vicious, and poorly conceived military campaign). BUT: American kids aren't being drafted into this war. And it's actually relatively low on the priority list for most voters.
2. Biden hasn't dropped out, like LBJ did. LBJ's decision to throw in the towel certainly didn't end well for the Democratic party, or for progressive causes generally. So I'm glad Biden's sticking it out. He defeated Trump once before, and it's within his grasp to do it again.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:41 PM on May 29 [12 favorites]
Israel has just announced the war will last seven more months - in other words, just long enough to get the Democrats ousted. He is slaughtering Gazans just slowly enough to guarantee it.
posted by CynicalKnight at 8:43 PM on May 29 [6 favorites]
posted by CynicalKnight at 8:43 PM on May 29 [6 favorites]
If Biden if losing votes because he keeps murdering children, maybe that is a problem with him, rather than the voters.
If Trump wins and murders even more children because some people decided they'd rather not vote for Biden, then yeah, that's a problem with the voters. It's a problem with Biden too! Even more than either of those it's a problem with Trump and the people who vote for him. Everyone sucks here.
It sucks but political parties move to where the votes are, not where they aren't, so withholding votes doesn't actually work to move Democrats left. I liked this article from Brian Beutler about "leverage" in politics.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 8:44 PM on May 29 [10 favorites]
If Trump wins and murders even more children because some people decided they'd rather not vote for Biden, then yeah, that's a problem with the voters. It's a problem with Biden too! Even more than either of those it's a problem with Trump and the people who vote for him. Everyone sucks here.
It sucks but political parties move to where the votes are, not where they aren't, so withholding votes doesn't actually work to move Democrats left. I liked this article from Brian Beutler about "leverage" in politics.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 8:44 PM on May 29 [10 favorites]
Israel has just announced the war will last seven more months - in other words, just long enough to get the Democrats ousted. He is slaughtering Gazans just slowly enough to guarantee it.
That could well be. Netanyahu is pursuing this horrifying course largely to save his own skin. And if he gets Biden out of office, Trump will then back him to the hilt -- and the war can go on indefinitely.
Biden has thus far given pretty gentle but slowly escalating pushback to Netanyahu's most reckless decisions. The real-world alternative is someone who, rather than giving any pushback at all, offers Bibi a tanker truck full of gasoline to throw on the fire.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:47 PM on May 29 [6 favorites]
That could well be. Netanyahu is pursuing this horrifying course largely to save his own skin. And if he gets Biden out of office, Trump will then back him to the hilt -- and the war can go on indefinitely.
Biden has thus far given pretty gentle but slowly escalating pushback to Netanyahu's most reckless decisions. The real-world alternative is someone who, rather than giving any pushback at all, offers Bibi a tanker truck full of gasoline to throw on the fire.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:47 PM on May 29 [6 favorites]
I think the funniest possible option for this go-round is that Biden wins the electoral vote, but not the popular one.
But not funny ha-ha
posted by Rudy_Wiser at 8:54 PM on May 29 [6 favorites]
But not funny ha-ha
posted by Rudy_Wiser at 8:54 PM on May 29 [6 favorites]
It sucks but political parties move to where the votes are, not where they aren't, so withholding votes doesn't actually work to move Democrats left.
Indeed. At the risk of sounding like a broken record (because I've posted about this several times before): the largest voting bloc in the Democratic party is multiracial moderates.
This is why Biden, Pelosi, Schumer, Clinton, etc. don't all sound like Bernie Sanders: because the biggest group of Democratic voters wouldn't respond well if they did.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:55 PM on May 29 [1 favorite]
Indeed. At the risk of sounding like a broken record (because I've posted about this several times before): the largest voting bloc in the Democratic party is multiracial moderates.
This is why Biden, Pelosi, Schumer, Clinton, etc. don't all sound like Bernie Sanders: because the biggest group of Democratic voters wouldn't respond well if they did.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:55 PM on May 29 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I figured "Gaza" would be the nonresponse to all the stuff I posted about how the Democratic has, on countless metrics, moved to the left, not the right..
Oh please. All of these points have been responded to ad nauseum in countless other threads.
The fact that you refuse to address the fact that the on going genocide Biden is participating in makes him unfit for office makes picking through your list of DNC talking points even more pointless than typical.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:58 PM on May 29 [9 favorites]
Oh please. All of these points have been responded to ad nauseum in countless other threads.
The fact that you refuse to address the fact that the on going genocide Biden is participating in makes him unfit for office makes picking through your list of DNC talking points even more pointless than typical.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:58 PM on May 29 [9 favorites]
So we’re doing this again where we try to convince people to vote for the better Nazi?
posted by iamck at 9:01 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
posted by iamck at 9:01 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
your list of DNC talking points
Otherwise known as "facts".
I work for a legal news publication. I track legislation and regulation closely across many policy areas. Everything I posted in that list of Biden's accomplishments, and the shifts in Democratic policy generally, is objectively accurate. Believe me, I can expand on any of those points in mind-numbing, well-researched detail.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:08 PM on May 29 [7 favorites]
Otherwise known as "facts".
I work for a legal news publication. I track legislation and regulation closely across many policy areas. Everything I posted in that list of Biden's accomplishments, and the shifts in Democratic policy generally, is objectively accurate. Believe me, I can expand on any of those points in mind-numbing, well-researched detail.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:08 PM on May 29 [7 favorites]
So we’re doing this again where we try to convince people to vote for the better Nazi?
Nah. Vote for Joe Biden, who is not a Nazi. Thanks! Good night!
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:11 PM on May 29 [12 favorites]
Nah. Vote for Joe Biden, who is not a Nazi. Thanks! Good night!
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:11 PM on May 29 [12 favorites]
Vote for Joe Biden, who is not a Nazi.
He's not from the Austrian region, so he's just a sparkling war criminal.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:13 PM on May 29 [12 favorites]
He's not from the Austrian region, so he's just a sparkling war criminal.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:13 PM on May 29 [12 favorites]
Certainly there has to be at least one here. You only joined in 2020. Does anyone know this person IRL? If so, I retract my accusation and apologize.
This is serious Blue MAGA territory. Every critic must be a secret fascist. Every criticism is Russo-Chinese propaganda.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:21 PM on May 29 [16 favorites]
This is serious Blue MAGA territory. Every critic must be a secret fascist. Every criticism is Russo-Chinese propaganda.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:21 PM on May 29 [16 favorites]
Far as I know, Manwich rides for one of the many Circle A Ranches.
posted by house-goblin at 9:33 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
posted by house-goblin at 9:33 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
If we're going to descend into "everyone who disagrees with me is a foreign troll", can we at least do low-rent The Thing this time instead of budget-McCarthy?
Who among us has seen this Mefite bleed human blood? (wrong answer, real Mefites bleed blue & green!)
posted by CrystalDave at 9:33 PM on May 29 [6 favorites]
Who among us has seen this Mefite bleed human blood? (wrong answer, real Mefites bleed blue & green!)
posted by CrystalDave at 9:33 PM on May 29 [6 favorites]
When it comes to the Gaza discussion, isn’t it too late to salvage his reputation with voters who withhold for that reason? It can’t be undone that he’s appeared to stand by throughout the majority of this.
posted by Selena777 at 9:41 PM on May 29
posted by Selena777 at 9:41 PM on May 29
When it comes to the Gaza discussion, isn’t it too late to salvage his reputation with voters who withhold for that reason? It can’t be undone that he’s appeared to stand by throughout the majority of this.
There are people withholding their support as a means of putting pressure on Biden to take steps to end the genocide in Gaza (beginning with stopping actively supporting it.) So there are definitely votes that can be recovered.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:44 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
There are people withholding their support as a means of putting pressure on Biden to take steps to end the genocide in Gaza (beginning with stopping actively supporting it.) So there are definitely votes that can be recovered.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:44 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
I guess I’m mixing up those people with the ones who appear to be disgusted with his character as a leader..
posted by Selena777 at 9:46 PM on May 29
posted by Selena777 at 9:46 PM on May 29
There are definitely people who are just done with Biden and won't come back. But I have no idea how many of them are out there compared to the ones who really want to be able to vote against Trump without supporting mass murder in Gaza.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:50 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:50 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
When it comes to the Gaza discussion, isn’t it too late to salvage his reputation with voters who withhold for that reason?
Could I be convinced to vote for Biden in the fall? Probably not, because as we've seen and as he's stated himself, he will continue unwavering support for Israel, no matter what they do. He's an avowed Zionist.
Best we can hope for is that he will either 1) die or 2) step down.
I have no doubt that Biden would rather go down in flames than acknowledge his wrongheadedness.
posted by iamck at 9:50 PM on May 29 [6 favorites]
Could I be convinced to vote for Biden in the fall? Probably not, because as we've seen and as he's stated himself, he will continue unwavering support for Israel, no matter what they do. He's an avowed Zionist.
Best we can hope for is that he will either 1) die or 2) step down.
I have no doubt that Biden would rather go down in flames than acknowledge his wrongheadedness.
posted by iamck at 9:50 PM on May 29 [6 favorites]
Selena777: there are plenty of people who are disgusted with Biden's character as a leader but would still hold their nose and vote for him again, just like they did in 2020, if not for all the gratuitous starvation and baby murder.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:54 PM on May 29 [7 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:54 PM on May 29 [7 favorites]
I see it every day. The destroyed hospitals and universities. The drone rockets desintegrating people carrying food rations. The burning and dead children. The wounded bulldozed into the ground by the IDF.
The entire rest of the thread regardless, and I mean this very earnestly: it is harmful to watch this type of stuff and more harmful to do so every day. Unless you need to do so for your job, you should really stop. Stay informed as much as you need to, but watching video of atrocities is a good way to give yourself moral injury and a bad way to help anyone. It's very likely that you have seen enough to form opinions, and more will not change them. Please consider taking care of yourself and stepping away.
If you meant "see" in a metaphorical sense of reading about it, then I think it sounds like you're probably still more engaged with the atrocities than is healthy or helpful. But images and especially video in particular is what fucks people up and should be approached carefully.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 9:56 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
The entire rest of the thread regardless, and I mean this very earnestly: it is harmful to watch this type of stuff and more harmful to do so every day. Unless you need to do so for your job, you should really stop. Stay informed as much as you need to, but watching video of atrocities is a good way to give yourself moral injury and a bad way to help anyone. It's very likely that you have seen enough to form opinions, and more will not change them. Please consider taking care of yourself and stepping away.
If you meant "see" in a metaphorical sense of reading about it, then I think it sounds like you're probably still more engaged with the atrocities than is healthy or helpful. But images and especially video in particular is what fucks people up and should be approached carefully.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 9:56 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
it is harmful to watch this type of stuff and more harmful to do so every day
It is harmful. I accidentally saw a photo of a child's body today. And while I don't advise anyone to look for this type of material, that is the real cost, and the real choice. When people talk about "holding our noses" and supporting Biden because these hypothetical Trump horrors, I realize they can talk like that because they didn't see the pictures.
There's a reason Instagram suddenly blocked "political" content by default. You can't see this horror and hand wave it away.
posted by iamck at 10:04 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
It is harmful. I accidentally saw a photo of a child's body today. And while I don't advise anyone to look for this type of material, that is the real cost, and the real choice. When people talk about "holding our noses" and supporting Biden because these hypothetical Trump horrors, I realize they can talk like that because they didn't see the pictures.
There's a reason Instagram suddenly blocked "political" content by default. You can't see this horror and hand wave it away.
posted by iamck at 10:04 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
If you or anyone else here does have a real need to engage with traumatizing images and video coming out of Gaza, then I recommend this guide on how to minimize the potential trauma of that. The author is Denise Paolucci who currently runs Dreamwidth and previously worked Trust and Safety for Livejournal. She knows what's she's talking about.
[I]t is not necessary to expose yourself to traumatizing, violent, or distressing images unless you have a very good reason for it and are prepared and set up to minimize the trauma to you. You do not have to watch videos or view images of atrocities in order to be a morally good person. People often pressure themselves to expose themselves to those atrocities in order to bear witness, and while that's a noble goal, it's also an emotionally wrenching thing that can have long-term consequences for your mental health.posted by vibratory manner of working at 10:08 PM on May 29 [7 favorites]
It's okay to avoid seeing these things. If you do feel like you need to see them, it's okay to quarantine seeing them into a dedicated block of time and avoid them otherwise. There is a very real and very distressing mental health impact from exposing yourself to images and video of atrocities, and I want to stress that you are not a bad person for protecting yourself and minimizing the amount of trauma it can cause you. You cannot do anything about atrocities that are happening in the world if you are too emotionally traumatized to think clearly and critically about what's happening, and it is not wrong to distance yourself from casual exposure to this sort of content. Taking steps to minimize the vicarious trauma and moral hazard of being exposed to graphic content will help you much, much more in the long run than forcing yourself to watch it.
POUM and PCE/PSUC fighting, yet again, as they always do, despite the looming Bando Nacional.
...followed by them being surprised, yet again, when their enemies turn out to be just exactly as efficient and brutal as they'd claimed to be. Ask Andreu Nin how that worked out for him, if you can find his bones.
Can you?
Find his bones, I mean?
They're still out there, this is not a theoretical discussion, those bones still need to be found.
Despite how many bones got piled in later on top. Many of which may be POUM or PCE, who can tell at this point?
Can you tell if they were sufficiently pure? Not, y'know, the wrong kind? Is it a calcium isotope question, maybe?
posted by aramaic at 10:16 PM on May 29 [2 favorites]
...followed by them being surprised, yet again, when their enemies turn out to be just exactly as efficient and brutal as they'd claimed to be. Ask Andreu Nin how that worked out for him, if you can find his bones.
Can you?
Find his bones, I mean?
They're still out there, this is not a theoretical discussion, those bones still need to be found.
Despite how many bones got piled in later on top. Many of which may be POUM or PCE, who can tell at this point?
Can you tell if they were sufficiently pure? Not, y'know, the wrong kind? Is it a calcium isotope question, maybe?
posted by aramaic at 10:16 PM on May 29 [2 favorites]
The POUM tried to politically and militarily cooperate with the Stalinists and Republicans and were murdered for their troubles. I don't think that is the best example to argue for collaboration in the face of a fascist enemy.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:47 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:47 PM on May 29 [5 favorites]
The outcomes are still hard to predict. Biden admin may feel that they can afford to lose votes of people who are basing their vote on what’s happening in Gaza, because most people aren’t. It’s too early to know if this calculation is wrong.
posted by girlmightlive at 10:58 PM on May 29
posted by girlmightlive at 10:58 PM on May 29
So, um. My partner is trans, and my best friend has lost multiple family members to the IDF in Gaza.
My understanding of American identity is that it is founded on our intervention in WW2, and that we stopped a genocide.
I know all the reasons that story is incomplete, but, if we cannot refuse to send weapons to a country committing mechanized genocide, and our youth are going to be beaten up by cops and denied degrees for protesting that... It's collapsed already, and voting for harm reduction is just delaying the inevitable baccanal.
Go spend your time scaring the ever living shit out of the conservative people you know who support genocide. The people spending their time telling the left not to be upset could spend their time turning right and making there be actual consequences for the folks to the right.
posted by constraint at 11:06 PM on May 29 [18 favorites]
My understanding of American identity is that it is founded on our intervention in WW2, and that we stopped a genocide.
I know all the reasons that story is incomplete, but, if we cannot refuse to send weapons to a country committing mechanized genocide, and our youth are going to be beaten up by cops and denied degrees for protesting that... It's collapsed already, and voting for harm reduction is just delaying the inevitable baccanal.
Go spend your time scaring the ever living shit out of the conservative people you know who support genocide. The people spending their time telling the left not to be upset could spend their time turning right and making there be actual consequences for the folks to the right.
posted by constraint at 11:06 PM on May 29 [18 favorites]
Like, do you have conservative family members you keep in touch with? Call them and tell them you can't in good faith continue to associate with them.
Friends with someone who keeps changing the topic to anti semitism when the genocide in Gaza comes up? Call them and tell them you can't in good faith associate with them.
Is your employer firing people for protesting? Start the job search yesterday.
Does your university ask you for donations? How did they handle protestors? Tell them you will not be donating.
You're gonna want to be taking steps that feel painful to you.
posted by constraint at 11:15 PM on May 29 [6 favorites]
Friends with someone who keeps changing the topic to anti semitism when the genocide in Gaza comes up? Call them and tell them you can't in good faith associate with them.
Is your employer firing people for protesting? Start the job search yesterday.
Does your university ask you for donations? How did they handle protestors? Tell them you will not be donating.
You're gonna want to be taking steps that feel painful to you.
posted by constraint at 11:15 PM on May 29 [6 favorites]
If Biden promised to ban abortion after 16 weeks and Trump promised to ban abortion after 12 weeks, would it be justifiable to vote for a third party?
Is it valid to be a single-issue voter if the single issue is genocide?
posted by Geoff Epstein (no relation) at 11:22 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
Is it valid to be a single-issue voter if the single issue is genocide?
posted by Geoff Epstein (no relation) at 11:22 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
It is pure craziness to suppose Biden helps himself by opposing Israel. There aren’t 500,000 leftists who will stay home because Biden supports Israel. There ARE 10 million apathetic people who will stay home unless someone gets out their vote, and Biden wins if he has a billion more dollars to get out his slice of that population than Trump has to get out his slice. Biden just slowing some weapons deliveries and letting his pro-Palestinian younger staffers talk more to the press in the last couple of months has unlocked hundreds of millions of dollars for Trump. A little more opposition to Israel and Trump closes the gap even further, and not just with sidelines Republicans jumping but big longtime Democratic donors who hate Trump, but would rather see him back in the White House than the US helping Hamas stay in Gaza.
posted by MattD at 11:47 PM on May 29 [1 favorite]
posted by MattD at 11:47 PM on May 29 [1 favorite]
Beyond Israel-Palestine, I will tell you what the parties need to get young people. MAKE THINGS CHEAPER! Republicans and Democrats are each worse than the other with policies that make things more expensive and competitive except for some favored class or another of special pleader or another. Young people with pride don’t want to be welfare recipients, they want the market to be able to provide cheap housing, cheap power and cheap food, so they can start families and build wealth.
posted by MattD at 11:59 PM on May 29 [2 favorites]
posted by MattD at 11:59 PM on May 29 [2 favorites]
I guess we’ll see how pure craziness it is when Biden loses this November.
posted by iamck at 12:05 AM on May 30 [5 favorites]
posted by iamck at 12:05 AM on May 30 [5 favorites]
The market needs to do it or the elected officials in government? Or is the demand for a gov subsidy disguised as a low cost offer from the market?
posted by Selena777 at 12:23 AM on May 30 [1 favorite]
posted by Selena777 at 12:23 AM on May 30 [1 favorite]
MattD: "the US helping Hamas stay in Gaza" is one way to characterize international humanitarian law
posted by Geoff Epstein (no relation) at 12:37 AM on May 30 [13 favorites]
posted by Geoff Epstein (no relation) at 12:37 AM on May 30 [13 favorites]
i want to be a welfare recipient and you should too. the things that people get up to when they work for pay are generally bad, and the things that people get up to when they don’t have to work for pay are generally better.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 12:52 AM on May 30 [10 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 12:52 AM on May 30 [10 favorites]
Does anyone else think it is very strange that Biden has absolutely nothing to say about the fact that two Supreme Court justices have family connections to the Jan 6 movement, but are refusing to recuse themselves from rulings on electoral interference?
I guess he just doesn't want to politicize the Court.
posted by Geoff Epstein (no relation) at 1:50 AM on May 30 [15 favorites]
I guess he just doesn't want to politicize the Court.
posted by Geoff Epstein (no relation) at 1:50 AM on May 30 [15 favorites]
Biden just slowing some weapons deliveries and letting his pro-Palestinian younger staffers talk more to the press in the last couple of months has unlocked hundreds of millions of dollars for Trump.
What are we basing this claim on?
Going from "Biden is doing his best to minimise the deaths and rein in the IDF, actually, just behind the scenes" to "actually, he's got to keep up complete support for the genocide, even talking about theoretical, non-binding red lines is handing Trump the win" is quite the escalation.
I actually believe that a lot of senior Democrats believe it, that's not what I'm questioning, more, are we just admitting that all the "Biden's backroom deals are the real peace process" bullshit was exactly that, bullshit?
Doesn't that wedge some of your allies who are trying to argue that Biden is actually good and pure and woke and only hated for "vibes"?
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:06 AM on May 30 [7 favorites]
What are we basing this claim on?
Going from "Biden is doing his best to minimise the deaths and rein in the IDF, actually, just behind the scenes" to "actually, he's got to keep up complete support for the genocide, even talking about theoretical, non-binding red lines is handing Trump the win" is quite the escalation.
I actually believe that a lot of senior Democrats believe it, that's not what I'm questioning, more, are we just admitting that all the "Biden's backroom deals are the real peace process" bullshit was exactly that, bullshit?
Doesn't that wedge some of your allies who are trying to argue that Biden is actually good and pure and woke and only hated for "vibes"?
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:06 AM on May 30 [7 favorites]
Quick review of where things are sitting:
Biden is down by ten points or so in deep-blue states, where, frankly, losing ten points won't change the electoral college. Biden will win New York, California, Massachusetts regardless.
In lighter-blue states (Colorado, Minnesota, Virginia), there might be some slight concern, but there's no strong indication that these states are in danger of flipping at this time (remembering that the election is five months away).
In northern swing states, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, effectively no change. They all look very close, just as they did in both 2020 and 2016. They could go either way. Point being, Biden is not ten points down in these states, or else the headlines and reporting would be much, much different--if Biden were showing ten points down in PA, Trump would have a near lock on winning the election already.
In sunbelt swing states (Arizona, Georgia, North Carolina), Trump has small leads that look very similar to the final 2016 results. Nevada is also reporting small Trump leads, note that Biden won NV in 2020 and Clinton won NV in 2016.
Data from deep-red states is limited. Trump might be down a bit in Utah, but he'll win it anyway. Florida shows increasingly red in polling. Texas is depressingly stable, Republican leads there are never that large, but they also never shrink, they just stay the same.
Summary: 2024 looks a lot like 2016, which was also a coin flip.
A note on the "youth vote" in 2016 -- in Wisconsin, one of Clinton's strongest counties was Dane County, Madison and the U of Wisconsin. There was a lot of noise that year about "disaffected Bernie Bros" staying home and not voting....that didn't happen. The youth vote turned out that year, but the Clinton campaign lost a lot of voters in more "lunchbucket" type areas like Sheboygan and Racine. Fun fact: Trump won Wisconsin in 2016 with very slightly fewer voters than Mitt Romney got in Wisconsin when he lost in 2012.
Republicans win when they convince voters to stay home. Casual voters get exhausted and disgusted with politics, and don't bother to show up. Republican crazies do show up and take the election. It's another manifestation of voter suppression, and it works for them, alongside more overt attempts to keep people from voting.
posted by gimonca at 4:14 AM on May 30 [5 favorites]
Biden is down by ten points or so in deep-blue states, where, frankly, losing ten points won't change the electoral college. Biden will win New York, California, Massachusetts regardless.
In lighter-blue states (Colorado, Minnesota, Virginia), there might be some slight concern, but there's no strong indication that these states are in danger of flipping at this time (remembering that the election is five months away).
In northern swing states, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, effectively no change. They all look very close, just as they did in both 2020 and 2016. They could go either way. Point being, Biden is not ten points down in these states, or else the headlines and reporting would be much, much different--if Biden were showing ten points down in PA, Trump would have a near lock on winning the election already.
In sunbelt swing states (Arizona, Georgia, North Carolina), Trump has small leads that look very similar to the final 2016 results. Nevada is also reporting small Trump leads, note that Biden won NV in 2020 and Clinton won NV in 2016.
Data from deep-red states is limited. Trump might be down a bit in Utah, but he'll win it anyway. Florida shows increasingly red in polling. Texas is depressingly stable, Republican leads there are never that large, but they also never shrink, they just stay the same.
Summary: 2024 looks a lot like 2016, which was also a coin flip.
A note on the "youth vote" in 2016 -- in Wisconsin, one of Clinton's strongest counties was Dane County, Madison and the U of Wisconsin. There was a lot of noise that year about "disaffected Bernie Bros" staying home and not voting....that didn't happen. The youth vote turned out that year, but the Clinton campaign lost a lot of voters in more "lunchbucket" type areas like Sheboygan and Racine. Fun fact: Trump won Wisconsin in 2016 with very slightly fewer voters than Mitt Romney got in Wisconsin when he lost in 2012.
Republicans win when they convince voters to stay home. Casual voters get exhausted and disgusted with politics, and don't bother to show up. Republican crazies do show up and take the election. It's another manifestation of voter suppression, and it works for them, alongside more overt attempts to keep people from voting.
posted by gimonca at 4:14 AM on May 30 [5 favorites]
Republicans win when they convince voters to stay home. Casual voters get exhausted and disgusted with politics, and don't bother to show up. Republican crazies do show up and take the election. It's another manifestation of voter suppression
It's not voter suppression when the candidate sucks. Like good lord, words have actual meanings. Voter suppression is when someone keeps you from voting, not when the guy running makes you want to not vote for him because he sucks at life.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:38 AM on May 30 [9 favorites]
It's not voter suppression when the candidate sucks. Like good lord, words have actual meanings. Voter suppression is when someone keeps you from voting, not when the guy running makes you want to not vote for him because he sucks at life.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:38 AM on May 30 [9 favorites]
perhaps they are accusing Biden of voter suppression. I wouldn't argue with that.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:05 AM on May 30 [6 favorites]
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:05 AM on May 30 [6 favorites]
Mod note: Several comments and responds removed.
Do not engage in baseless accusations of other members being conservative trolls.
Do not attempt to get other members of the community to engage in verifying whether another user is a conservative troll.
If anyone has concerns about another user, please use the Contact Us form at the bottom of every page. Again, refrain from accusations you then have to apologize for in the morning (thank you for that) and avoid trying to form a virtual mob. That behavior could result in a permanent banning from the site.
CynicalKnight, consider removing yourself from this thread. Please do not do that again.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:24 AM on May 30 [11 favorites]
Do not engage in baseless accusations of other members being conservative trolls.
Do not attempt to get other members of the community to engage in verifying whether another user is a conservative troll.
If anyone has concerns about another user, please use the Contact Us form at the bottom of every page. Again, refrain from accusations you then have to apologize for in the morning (thank you for that) and avoid trying to form a virtual mob. That behavior could result in a permanent banning from the site.
CynicalKnight, consider removing yourself from this thread. Please do not do that again.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:24 AM on May 30 [11 favorites]
A little more opposition to Israel and Trump closes the gap even further, and not just with sidelines Republicans jumping but big longtime Democratic donors who hate Trump, but would rather see him back in the White House than the US helping Hamas stay in Gaza
But don't you see the level of absolute hypocrisy that's on display with this reasoning? You're telling one group of would-be allies how existentially important it is for the future of the country to stop complaining and accept that an imperfect candidate isn't supporting their cause because there's another group of would-be allies who who would gladly switch sides and support Trump in a heartbeat if they aren't completely satisfied?
You're telling young people to grow up and think about the bigger picture because there are lots grown-ups who who have already made it clear that they absolutely will take their ball and go home if they don't get what they want.
You're picking and choosing who gets to act like a selfish asshole in order to influence policy.
And that's why kids today don't see any hope in the system.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:29 AM on May 30 [13 favorites]
But don't you see the level of absolute hypocrisy that's on display with this reasoning? You're telling one group of would-be allies how existentially important it is for the future of the country to stop complaining and accept that an imperfect candidate isn't supporting their cause because there's another group of would-be allies who who would gladly switch sides and support Trump in a heartbeat if they aren't completely satisfied?
You're telling young people to grow up and think about the bigger picture because there are lots grown-ups who who have already made it clear that they absolutely will take their ball and go home if they don't get what they want.
You're picking and choosing who gets to act like a selfish asshole in order to influence policy.
And that's why kids today don't see any hope in the system.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:29 AM on May 30 [13 favorites]
Turns out the kids aren’t being cynical ENOUGH.
posted by Artw at 5:43 AM on May 30 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:43 AM on May 30 [6 favorites]
Despite what I said wayyyyyyy up above, I think people who don't want to vote for Biden should do what they feel is right. There are still 5 months to make a decision, during which almost anything could happen. For me personally, the Gaza issue is a huge one, and I can feel myself buffeted by something that was discussed on The Wilderness podcast s4e2. There are "double-haters", meaning people who hate Trump *and* Biden. I'm probably one of those at this point, but the hate for Biden is honestly more hate for him failing to take obvious but politically difficult actions to restrain Israel. Other than that, his administration is doing a ton of good and would be a great gateway to moving even further left in the future. Here's the issue that the podcast discussed:
* If I just read about the stupid pier in Gaza, or the bombing of a refugee camp, there's NO FUCKING WAY I'M VOTING FOR BIDEN.
* If I just read about Project 2025 or heard Donald Trump's voice or read about literally anything the Republicans have done, OBVIOUSLY I'M VOTING FOR BIDEN,
* I can feel that flipper flipping in my heart multiple times a day.
A lot of people in the thread seem really hung up on the idea that people are asking them to "keep their mouths shut" and vote for Biden, which I haven't seen anyone ask, or they just assume that anyone urging them to vote for Biden is some sort of centrist apologist, which is obviously not true. This is a hard election for all of us, and back to the original FPP, it's a hard time in the world for all of us and getting harder. I guess on balance I feel that voting for Biden is going to have a better impact on the future than voting for Trump or 3rd party/abstention, but I don't really *know* that.
posted by caviar2d2 at 6:06 AM on May 30 [16 favorites]
* If I just read about the stupid pier in Gaza, or the bombing of a refugee camp, there's NO FUCKING WAY I'M VOTING FOR BIDEN.
* If I just read about Project 2025 or heard Donald Trump's voice or read about literally anything the Republicans have done, OBVIOUSLY I'M VOTING FOR BIDEN,
* I can feel that flipper flipping in my heart multiple times a day.
A lot of people in the thread seem really hung up on the idea that people are asking them to "keep their mouths shut" and vote for Biden, which I haven't seen anyone ask, or they just assume that anyone urging them to vote for Biden is some sort of centrist apologist, which is obviously not true. This is a hard election for all of us, and back to the original FPP, it's a hard time in the world for all of us and getting harder. I guess on balance I feel that voting for Biden is going to have a better impact on the future than voting for Trump or 3rd party/abstention, but I don't really *know* that.
posted by caviar2d2 at 6:06 AM on May 30 [16 favorites]
It is pure craziness to suppose Biden helps himself by opposing Israel.
If the US is so intrinsically criminal that abetting genocide is the only way to get elected, then why should it be treated as anything more than another Putinist Russia, or Nazi Germany? If the American people are so hellbent on spilling Palestinian blood, then how can we possibly engage in electoral politics instead of active resistance? I can understand believing the US electorate is that depraved. But I can't understand treating that as anything but a profound condemnation.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:35 AM on May 30 [5 favorites]
If the US is so intrinsically criminal that abetting genocide is the only way to get elected, then why should it be treated as anything more than another Putinist Russia, or Nazi Germany? If the American people are so hellbent on spilling Palestinian blood, then how can we possibly engage in electoral politics instead of active resistance? I can understand believing the US electorate is that depraved. But I can't understand treating that as anything but a profound condemnation.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:35 AM on May 30 [5 favorites]
When people talk about "holding our noses" and supporting Biden because these hypothetical Trump horrors, I realize they can talk like that because they didn't see the pictures.
Bullshit. Bull fucking shit.
I've watched those pictures. I've watched the videos. I've watched the IDF lie and lie and lie about every attack knowingly where civilians are and go "whoopsie daisy!" with a wink.
And I've watched Biden fall short at every step, not putting enough pressure on Israel to just fucking stop genociding.
It utterly burns me up inside to see it.
And yet I can also remain objective enough (perhaps just barely) to know that Trump is so much worse, and what he'd have done in this situation would've made Ben-Gvir the dictator of a new Greater Israel because that's what the Evangelical fascists want. Until it's time to serve Israel up for their god'sRighteous Slaughter Rapture.
This isn't "hold your nose" and vote for the lesser evil. This is crawl to the voting place through a haze of moral injury fog and know you're voting for a LOT OF EVIL.
And yet -- and yet! It is still less. If in November those are the options before me, I have a moral obligation to prevent worse from happening. All else is accelerationism in moral-indignation disguise.
Act as your conscience directs you. I cannot ask more than that. But don't accuse those who will vote for Biden in November of not knowing what that means and of not engaging with the horror of our current reality.
posted by tclark at 6:50 AM on May 30 [29 favorites]
Bullshit. Bull fucking shit.
I've watched those pictures. I've watched the videos. I've watched the IDF lie and lie and lie about every attack knowingly where civilians are and go "whoopsie daisy!" with a wink.
And I've watched Biden fall short at every step, not putting enough pressure on Israel to just fucking stop genociding.
It utterly burns me up inside to see it.
And yet I can also remain objective enough (perhaps just barely) to know that Trump is so much worse, and what he'd have done in this situation would've made Ben-Gvir the dictator of a new Greater Israel because that's what the Evangelical fascists want. Until it's time to serve Israel up for their god's
This isn't "hold your nose" and vote for the lesser evil. This is crawl to the voting place through a haze of moral injury fog and know you're voting for a LOT OF EVIL.
And yet -- and yet! It is still less. If in November those are the options before me, I have a moral obligation to prevent worse from happening. All else is accelerationism in moral-indignation disguise.
Act as your conscience directs you. I cannot ask more than that. But don't accuse those who will vote for Biden in November of not knowing what that means and of not engaging with the horror of our current reality.
posted by tclark at 6:50 AM on May 30 [29 favorites]
Again, I can’t help but to think all of this yelling is between mere hundreds of thousands of the electorate when there are millions out there too clueless, careless, or incarcerated to vote at all.
And maybe going after those votes is not the way. But I do think we need to at least acknowledge they’re out there.
posted by Apocryphon at 7:12 AM on May 30 [7 favorites]
And maybe going after those votes is not the way. But I do think we need to at least acknowledge they’re out there.
posted by Apocryphon at 7:12 AM on May 30 [7 favorites]
What's the purpose of this whole going online to pledge your vote for Biden to "prevent harm" or whatever? Who gives a shit? What are you doing? Who are you talking to?
"Yeah, Biden is helping a genocide but ya know what yall, *I'm* gonna vote for him anyway to 'minimize harm' because *I'm* a good person and *I* recognize the *difference* between Biden and Trump" oh just fuck off with it already. What even is this? Do people think they're doing politics here? Do some of you honestly think Palestinian and Arab Americans living in Dearborn Michigan for example don't know that "Trump would be worse"? Or in other words: Do you just think they're stupid, they're ignorant?
These utterly pathetic displays of "resigned" fealty to democrats serve literally zero purpose except to do one thing: Undermine the only power and leverage that these anti-genocide voters have, which is to loudly announce en mass that they will not vote for Biden in November. It's too bad it has to come to that, but that's what they've determined it's come to and it's frankly all there is that they can do.
The Biden administration should be haunted by this shit every day; instead they are absolutely content to play chicken and make this sick wager that they can continue arming Israel, provided that they think that progressives will fall in line in November partly fueled by a plurality of feckless little cowards doing public displays of "erm well um Trump Would Be Worse actually" six months out from election day. No one actually needs this shit as much as you think they do, I promise you are all not "educating" or helping anyone here.
posted by windbox at 7:27 AM on May 30 [15 favorites]
"Yeah, Biden is helping a genocide but ya know what yall, *I'm* gonna vote for him anyway to 'minimize harm' because *I'm* a good person and *I* recognize the *difference* between Biden and Trump" oh just fuck off with it already. What even is this? Do people think they're doing politics here? Do some of you honestly think Palestinian and Arab Americans living in Dearborn Michigan for example don't know that "Trump would be worse"? Or in other words: Do you just think they're stupid, they're ignorant?
These utterly pathetic displays of "resigned" fealty to democrats serve literally zero purpose except to do one thing: Undermine the only power and leverage that these anti-genocide voters have, which is to loudly announce en mass that they will not vote for Biden in November. It's too bad it has to come to that, but that's what they've determined it's come to and it's frankly all there is that they can do.
The Biden administration should be haunted by this shit every day; instead they are absolutely content to play chicken and make this sick wager that they can continue arming Israel, provided that they think that progressives will fall in line in November partly fueled by a plurality of feckless little cowards doing public displays of "erm well um Trump Would Be Worse actually" six months out from election day. No one actually needs this shit as much as you think they do, I promise you are all not "educating" or helping anyone here.
posted by windbox at 7:27 AM on May 30 [15 favorites]
Ongoing Democratic support for the genocide in Gaza is incredibly destructive to the future of this country, because it is raising up an electorate that is unmoved by the literal obvious evidence of murder that they are seeing in the same high quality as when they facetime Aunt Marsha. The Democratic party wants people to see that stuff and just...brush it aside, decide that they don't have the bandwidth, decide that something else is more important, decide that it's sad but not enough to change anything, etc. They are willfully creating a morally damaged electorate, probably just for the sake of convenience rather than as a deep strategy for getting us to write off parts of the US as climate change hits, but it still tells me that they do not give two shits for the future of the nation.
Say what you will about, eg, John F Kennedy, but he at least understood that you don't want to raise up a generation of disaffected and cynical voters who assume that the state will just always perpetuate the most grotesque violence and corruption and that your job is to game out which violent, corrupt oligarch will do the least harm to you personally.
Now, in general, I do believe that the state will always perpetuate violence, etc, but up until fairly recently politicians at least attempted to give some greater justification for government than "you are too weak to compel us to listen to you" and I think it's a bad change when they no longer feel the need.
People already don't vote because they assume that government is just bad weather - sometimes it's a thunderstorm, sometimes it's a heat wave, sometimes it's a tornado and you just have to buckle down. Telling people, "yes, it's true, we are not just doing what we please while you get poorer, we are literally bombing and burning other people as real as you on the other end of Tik-Tok and if you object we'll jail you but the other option is that Trump puts you and your loved ones in a camp" is, I mean, it's like the torment nexus of political malpractice.
If they don't want political polarization, they're making some funny choices, because the options more and more seem "depraved indifference", "depraved enthusiasm" and "total hatred of and rejection of the system", which id definitely how you get civil war.
posted by Frowner at 7:27 AM on May 30 [26 favorites]
Say what you will about, eg, John F Kennedy, but he at least understood that you don't want to raise up a generation of disaffected and cynical voters who assume that the state will just always perpetuate the most grotesque violence and corruption and that your job is to game out which violent, corrupt oligarch will do the least harm to you personally.
Now, in general, I do believe that the state will always perpetuate violence, etc, but up until fairly recently politicians at least attempted to give some greater justification for government than "you are too weak to compel us to listen to you" and I think it's a bad change when they no longer feel the need.
People already don't vote because they assume that government is just bad weather - sometimes it's a thunderstorm, sometimes it's a heat wave, sometimes it's a tornado and you just have to buckle down. Telling people, "yes, it's true, we are not just doing what we please while you get poorer, we are literally bombing and burning other people as real as you on the other end of Tik-Tok and if you object we'll jail you but the other option is that Trump puts you and your loved ones in a camp" is, I mean, it's like the torment nexus of political malpractice.
If they don't want political polarization, they're making some funny choices, because the options more and more seem "depraved indifference", "depraved enthusiasm" and "total hatred of and rejection of the system", which id definitely how you get civil war.
posted by Frowner at 7:27 AM on May 30 [26 favorites]
MattD: "the US helping Hamas stay in Gaza" is one way to characterize international humanitarian law
International humanitarian law requires that Palestinian civilians have the chance to live without fear of death in Gaza. It in no way requires that Hamas be allowed to stay in Gaza. If the war can be ended by allowing Hamas fighters to get sanctuary in another country, why is that a bad thing?
posted by jonp72 at 7:32 AM on May 30
International humanitarian law requires that Palestinian civilians have the chance to live without fear of death in Gaza. It in no way requires that Hamas be allowed to stay in Gaza. If the war can be ended by allowing Hamas fighters to get sanctuary in another country, why is that a bad thing?
posted by jonp72 at 7:32 AM on May 30
These utterly pathetic displays of "resigned" fealty to democrats serve literally zero purpose except to do one thing: Undermine the only power and leverage that these anti-genocide voters have, which is to loudly announce en mass that they will not vote for Biden in November. It's too bad it has to come to that, but that's what they've determined it's come to and it's frankly all there is that they can do.
So stay home. Convince all your friends to stay home. Spend lots of hours on the internet convincing lots of strangers to stay home. See what you get; I'm done caring.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:52 AM on May 30 [5 favorites]
So stay home. Convince all your friends to stay home. Spend lots of hours on the internet convincing lots of strangers to stay home. See what you get; I'm done caring.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:52 AM on May 30 [5 favorites]
windbox, you said it
and for everyone going on about how much worse it will be with Trump: the world sees you. The world sees US policy in action, this is the best Biden can do, and the world sees it. So there is the absolute devastation to Gaza, the genocide, and politically the death of a percentage of the young US vote: young people with eyes and brains, who will simply terminate their participation in a system that is so feckless that this is the best it can do in the face of the "worse" monster
you don't get it, do you
posted by elkevelvet at 7:57 AM on May 30 [6 favorites]
and for everyone going on about how much worse it will be with Trump: the world sees you. The world sees US policy in action, this is the best Biden can do, and the world sees it. So there is the absolute devastation to Gaza, the genocide, and politically the death of a percentage of the young US vote: young people with eyes and brains, who will simply terminate their participation in a system that is so feckless that this is the best it can do in the face of the "worse" monster
you don't get it, do you
posted by elkevelvet at 7:57 AM on May 30 [6 favorites]
you don't get it, do you
I get it. What I get is that one of the main fundamental disconnects in this discussion is that one side considers the present horror bad enough to disengage entirely, and the other side sees a future that is worse that can be averted. I get what side you're on. And now you get what side I'm on. If Donald J. Trump wins in November, what is your next move? If Biden wins in November, I know what mine is. All the pressure I can feasibly muster. And if what I intend comes to pass, I will not have a President whose stated intentions to destroy anyone he perceives as an enemy are so various and sundry we can simply take them as read.
posted by tclark at 8:04 AM on May 30 [13 favorites]
I get it. What I get is that one of the main fundamental disconnects in this discussion is that one side considers the present horror bad enough to disengage entirely, and the other side sees a future that is worse that can be averted. I get what side you're on. And now you get what side I'm on. If Donald J. Trump wins in November, what is your next move? If Biden wins in November, I know what mine is. All the pressure I can feasibly muster. And if what I intend comes to pass, I will not have a President whose stated intentions to destroy anyone he perceives as an enemy are so various and sundry we can simply take them as read.
posted by tclark at 8:04 AM on May 30 [13 favorites]
For all the wars we have fought in and/or supported in other countries, Americans will never hate an outside enemy as much as they do each other.
posted by Kitteh at 8:09 AM on May 30 [2 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 8:09 AM on May 30 [2 favorites]
So stay home. Convince all your friends to stay home. Spend lots of hours on the internet convincing lots of strangers to stay home. See what you get; I'm done caring.
I understand the fear and the anger. Believe me, I do. But the comment you are replying to isn't calling for staying home, or political apathy. It is calling for using the literal only means the average American has to try to stop what this administration is doing. If we just shrug our shoulders and say "well, at least he isn't Trump", then we are giving up any hope of stemming the tide of bloodshed in Palestine.
Is American democracy is so broken that saying "I will not vote for you as long as you are engaged in abetting genocide" is a fatal and unacceptable defection? If it is, we should be working towards building systems to protect people when it fails entirely.
If it isn't, then we need to let people try some of that for the people, by the people stuff.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:11 AM on May 30 [12 favorites]
I understand the fear and the anger. Believe me, I do. But the comment you are replying to isn't calling for staying home, or political apathy. It is calling for using the literal only means the average American has to try to stop what this administration is doing. If we just shrug our shoulders and say "well, at least he isn't Trump", then we are giving up any hope of stemming the tide of bloodshed in Palestine.
Is American democracy is so broken that saying "I will not vote for you as long as you are engaged in abetting genocide" is a fatal and unacceptable defection? If it is, we should be working towards building systems to protect people when it fails entirely.
If it isn't, then we need to let people try some of that for the people, by the people stuff.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:11 AM on May 30 [12 favorites]
Sometimes, as Douglas Adams nailed it quite some time ago, one feels compelled to vote for the right lizard.
posted by delfin at 8:15 AM on May 30 [1 favorite]
posted by delfin at 8:15 AM on May 30 [1 favorite]
The Gaza thing is the most morally important issue right now (to me at least), and I'm angry that that the Biden team is playing pure politics for the fall. For example, winning 2 Obama-Trump voters in a swing state is judged to be more important than winning 3 student votes in a blue state. I mean of course he needs to win, but the American electoral system rewards this behavior, and it makes people cynical. It's not just Biden - it's pretty much every recent president and candidate for major office. It's short-term thinking, some selfish and some pragmatic, and keeps candidates from swinging for the fences. So I think what we need in 2028 is a center-left Trump. People like the fact that Trump pretty much says what he thinks, even though it's mostly stupid, wrong, and inconsistent. A charismatic, young, reasonable and non-elitist candidate could win, especially if they avoid demonizing the Republican voters or the boring centrists or whoever. If a beautiful trans person of color lays out a plan for making housing a right and sticking it to corporate and foreign landlords, and for bringing back family farms and holding down the price of groceries, that's a winner, especially if that person walks among the non-college-educated voters in the South and doesn't just rely on coastal and urban bubbles.
And on the Gaza topic, let's not forget that Trump killed the Iran deal and moved the US embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, both of which made the October 7 massacre much more likely, thus kicking off the whole Gaza war. In both Israel and Iran, Trump essentially rewarded the hard right authoritarians and made any sort of "maybe the US has changed" moderates laughingstocks in their own countries.
Also, Trump winning in 2016 over Clinton is the reason people no longer have the right to abortions. If he wins this year, the older R judges will retire and we'll get two new even more right-wing 40 year old justices who will still be on the court in 2050 or 2060 when Florida is swallowed by the sea.
posted by caviar2d2 at 8:24 AM on May 30 [11 favorites]
And on the Gaza topic, let's not forget that Trump killed the Iran deal and moved the US embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, both of which made the October 7 massacre much more likely, thus kicking off the whole Gaza war. In both Israel and Iran, Trump essentially rewarded the hard right authoritarians and made any sort of "maybe the US has changed" moderates laughingstocks in their own countries.
Also, Trump winning in 2016 over Clinton is the reason people no longer have the right to abortions. If he wins this year, the older R judges will retire and we'll get two new even more right-wing 40 year old justices who will still be on the court in 2050 or 2060 when Florida is swallowed by the sea.
posted by caviar2d2 at 8:24 AM on May 30 [11 favorites]
I understand the fear and the anger.
That was a while ago. Now I just don't care. I think that broad camp of people understand that they're working in ways that help Trump win and are okay with that. So... whatever. If they're okay with that, so am I. I'm white and cis and straight and male and I can socially pass for maga if I gotta. I'll be fine, and maybe my 403b will do well enough to let me retire a few years earlier. Y'all do y'all.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:34 AM on May 30 [3 favorites]
That was a while ago. Now I just don't care. I think that broad camp of people understand that they're working in ways that help Trump win and are okay with that. So... whatever. If they're okay with that, so am I. I'm white and cis and straight and male and I can socially pass for maga if I gotta. I'll be fine, and maybe my 403b will do well enough to let me retire a few years earlier. Y'all do y'all.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:34 AM on May 30 [3 favorites]
And yet -- and yet! It is still less. If in November those are the options before me, I have a moral obligation to prevent worse from happening.
The problem here is that the Democrats know that. This attitude, this unrelenting fear of Trump is really what they are counting on. It's why they're not being held accountable. If you really want to see change, it would take a healthy amount of the electorate saying loudly and clearly "No, we're not going to vote for this." Until that happens, expect more of the same.
posted by iamck at 8:35 AM on May 30 [4 favorites]
The problem here is that the Democrats know that. This attitude, this unrelenting fear of Trump is really what they are counting on. It's why they're not being held accountable. If you really want to see change, it would take a healthy amount of the electorate saying loudly and clearly "No, we're not going to vote for this." Until that happens, expect more of the same.
posted by iamck at 8:35 AM on May 30 [4 favorites]
From my vantage point of observing previous elections, it seems that republicans can make a big show of having second thoughts about Trump, and voted for him (or other republicans) anyway, but that was enough to get the media in a spin trying to find ways to appease or cajole them.
So why not let typical sections of gettable Biden votes express their feelings? It's months to go, and politicians deserve all the public hectoring they can get. It seems like people are more ready to scold the centre-left but would baby and coddle the centre-right because of some perceived authenticity and steadfastness of values (?). Let them feel cold in their stomach. There's a lot of great policy wins they've scored but as noted, don't really advertise or promote (same with Obama's era - again it's this fear to disappoint the centre-right steadfastness), and then there's the big genocidal elephant in the room. Let them answer the heckling. That's their platform, that's their job. We can talk it out but what's the need to play defence like it's sports?
posted by cendawanita at 8:47 AM on May 30 [14 favorites]
So why not let typical sections of gettable Biden votes express their feelings? It's months to go, and politicians deserve all the public hectoring they can get. It seems like people are more ready to scold the centre-left but would baby and coddle the centre-right because of some perceived authenticity and steadfastness of values (?). Let them feel cold in their stomach. There's a lot of great policy wins they've scored but as noted, don't really advertise or promote (same with Obama's era - again it's this fear to disappoint the centre-right steadfastness), and then there's the big genocidal elephant in the room. Let them answer the heckling. That's their platform, that's their job. We can talk it out but what's the need to play defence like it's sports?
posted by cendawanita at 8:47 AM on May 30 [14 favorites]
And if people are sharing how they're going to vote, that's fine, that's absolutely their right to share, especially if they're not drawing the conclusion that this is why anyone else should do what they do. For those who are, well, that's the hill they want to plant a discourse flag on.
posted by cendawanita at 8:48 AM on May 30 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 8:48 AM on May 30 [1 favorite]
I'm angry that that the Biden team is playing pure politics for the fall.
Given that Michigan is a swing state and the genocide polls very, very badly across the U.S., I don't think that they are behaving this way because they are playing politics.
posted by tofu_crouton at 8:51 AM on May 30 [4 favorites]
Given that Michigan is a swing state and the genocide polls very, very badly across the U.S., I don't think that they are behaving this way because they are playing politics.
posted by tofu_crouton at 8:51 AM on May 30 [4 favorites]
Just make sure if you're not voting for Biden to let HIM know loudly and frequently, and why. That's the only way it matters.
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:57 AM on May 30 [9 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:57 AM on May 30 [9 favorites]
Given that Michigan is a swing state and the genocide polls very, very badly across the U.S., I don't think that they are behaving this way because they are playing politics.
But that's the tremendous benefit of Trump as an opponent - anything less bad than Trump is now possible, because you can cow voters with the threat of worse. That's the whole point of the Democratic ratchet, and how it benefits our wealthy leaders. Anything that isn't literally the GOP 2025 plan is the lesser of two evils, so it frees the nominally liberal party to loot and grift.
posted by Frowner at 9:23 AM on May 30 [15 favorites]
But that's the tremendous benefit of Trump as an opponent - anything less bad than Trump is now possible, because you can cow voters with the threat of worse. That's the whole point of the Democratic ratchet, and how it benefits our wealthy leaders. Anything that isn't literally the GOP 2025 plan is the lesser of two evils, so it frees the nominally liberal party to loot and grift.
posted by Frowner at 9:23 AM on May 30 [15 favorites]
That was a while ago. Now I just don't care.
Yeah, they count on that.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:54 AM on May 30
Yeah, they count on that.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:54 AM on May 30
But that's the tremendous benefit of Trump as an opponent - anything less bad than Trump is now possible, because you can cow voters with the threat of worse.
If you think I'm not furious about the state of where we are, you're mistaken. But it doesn't matter how angry I am about *waves arms around* all this shit going on. If both Biden and Trump live to see November, we will be faced with a choice. There are, broadly speaking, two different futures as the outcome, and they're very different from one another. Maybe two different flavors of grim meathook future are all that are on offer.
Anyone who honestly believes that the world will get better faster with Trump and Project 2025 in the White House, should take their action to make it happen. That is, fundamentally, an accelerationist argument "crash the system fast so we can build a bright new future." I don't believe that the latter is in any way guaranteed by the former. As a matter of fact, I believe that the far side of that kind of accelerationism in the US will be measured in decades, not months or years. It took 40+ years for Spain to stumble its way to a reasonably functioning democracy. Russia still hasn't pulled it off. If a Trump administration brings out the crash of the system, paving way for a brighter future, I swear to you that your grandkids or grand-nieces/nephews might live to see it.
You can hate it all you want -- and you probably only have the vaguest inkling of how much I hate it (think the AM computer with HATE HATE HATE written all the way down to the quantum level and you won't far exceed my feelings on where we are in the world right now), but barring a momentous event, in January 2025 either Joe Biden or Donald Trump will be in the White House, with an entire coterie of sycophants, grifters, and even the occasional true believer in various positions. What do those futures look like? Which is more objectionable to you? You know which one is more objectionable to me, and thus I will do what I can to avert it.
posted by tclark at 10:09 AM on May 30 [10 favorites]
If you think I'm not furious about the state of where we are, you're mistaken. But it doesn't matter how angry I am about *waves arms around* all this shit going on. If both Biden and Trump live to see November, we will be faced with a choice. There are, broadly speaking, two different futures as the outcome, and they're very different from one another. Maybe two different flavors of grim meathook future are all that are on offer.
Anyone who honestly believes that the world will get better faster with Trump and Project 2025 in the White House, should take their action to make it happen. That is, fundamentally, an accelerationist argument "crash the system fast so we can build a bright new future." I don't believe that the latter is in any way guaranteed by the former. As a matter of fact, I believe that the far side of that kind of accelerationism in the US will be measured in decades, not months or years. It took 40+ years for Spain to stumble its way to a reasonably functioning democracy. Russia still hasn't pulled it off. If a Trump administration brings out the crash of the system, paving way for a brighter future, I swear to you that your grandkids or grand-nieces/nephews might live to see it.
You can hate it all you want -- and you probably only have the vaguest inkling of how much I hate it (think the AM computer with HATE HATE HATE written all the way down to the quantum level and you won't far exceed my feelings on where we are in the world right now), but barring a momentous event, in January 2025 either Joe Biden or Donald Trump will be in the White House, with an entire coterie of sycophants, grifters, and even the occasional true believer in various positions. What do those futures look like? Which is more objectionable to you? You know which one is more objectionable to me, and thus I will do what I can to avert it.
posted by tclark at 10:09 AM on May 30 [10 favorites]
A lot of people in the thread seem really hung up on the idea that people are asking them to "keep their mouths shut" and vote for Biden, which I haven't seen anyone ask
caviar2d2: this comment here (not yours) is an excellent example of the genre, for instance.
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:15 AM on May 30 [4 favorites]
caviar2d2: this comment here (not yours) is an excellent example of the genre, for instance.
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:15 AM on May 30 [4 favorites]
Joseph Tainter argues persuasively that most Roman subjects benefitted from the collapse of the Roman empire, Slackermagee. It'll almost surely benefit most humans, whenever the US loses its conventional force projection capabilities, likely even benefit most first world citizens.
Hell no it won't. At best it'll be a wash as Russia and China step up to fill the void left by the US, and in that scenario, I have a hard time believing Ukrainians, Armenians, Georgians, Kazakhs, or Taiwanese folks will feel benefited. Years ago my father's home country was threatened with annihilation by a much more powerful neighbor and the threat of US conventional force projection was literally the only thing that prevented it. So don't be so certain that if the US ceased to be a global power, the whole world would be over the moon with joy.
posted by Method Man at 10:17 AM on May 30 [8 favorites]
Hell no it won't. At best it'll be a wash as Russia and China step up to fill the void left by the US, and in that scenario, I have a hard time believing Ukrainians, Armenians, Georgians, Kazakhs, or Taiwanese folks will feel benefited. Years ago my father's home country was threatened with annihilation by a much more powerful neighbor and the threat of US conventional force projection was literally the only thing that prevented it. So don't be so certain that if the US ceased to be a global power, the whole world would be over the moon with joy.
posted by Method Man at 10:17 AM on May 30 [8 favorites]
but barring a momentous event, in January 2025 either Joe Biden or Donald Trump will be in the White House
God it's so funny that people like this think they are telling anyone anything new here. It is not November yet, ok champ? Anti-war people are exerting literally the only point of leverage that they have as individuals who are interested in creating a bloc of pressure on the Biden administration to stop aiding and abetting a genocide. People have taken to the streets, they've taken over their college campuses, they are disrupting events. Nothing has changed so now it comes to this.
No point to doing this utterly patronizing "ummmm ya know ONE of them is gonna be president right, smirk emoji" bullshit unless you seriously just wish to see this effort undermined. How about go make phone calls for Biden and start organizing others to volunteer for the Biden campaign if you're that concerned about it all six months out, christ.
posted by windbox at 10:23 AM on May 30 [19 favorites]
God it's so funny that people like this think they are telling anyone anything new here. It is not November yet, ok champ? Anti-war people are exerting literally the only point of leverage that they have as individuals who are interested in creating a bloc of pressure on the Biden administration to stop aiding and abetting a genocide. People have taken to the streets, they've taken over their college campuses, they are disrupting events. Nothing has changed so now it comes to this.
No point to doing this utterly patronizing "ummmm ya know ONE of them is gonna be president right, smirk emoji" bullshit unless you seriously just wish to see this effort undermined. How about go make phone calls for Biden and start organizing others to volunteer for the Biden campaign if you're that concerned about it all six months out, christ.
posted by windbox at 10:23 AM on May 30 [19 favorites]
Years ago my father's home country was threatened with annihilation by a much more powerful neighbor and the threat of US conventional force projection was literally the only thing that prevented it. So don't be so certain that if the US ceased to be a global power, the whole world would be over the moon with joy.
And plenty of other people's countries were invaded, had their democracies destroyed, and endured decades of horror to advance the interests of the US. On the scale of global politics, there are very few changes that are unalloyed goods or evils. I don't think it would be at all unreasonable to hold that the US is poised to be a net negative to the welfare of humanity going forward. Whether it has been in the past is not exactly settled, either.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:29 AM on May 30 [5 favorites]
And plenty of other people's countries were invaded, had their democracies destroyed, and endured decades of horror to advance the interests of the US. On the scale of global politics, there are very few changes that are unalloyed goods or evils. I don't think it would be at all unreasonable to hold that the US is poised to be a net negative to the welfare of humanity going forward. Whether it has been in the past is not exactly settled, either.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:29 AM on May 30 [5 favorites]
Armenia is a Russian ally, the CSTO has just been completely derelict in its supposed duty to defend in the face of Azerbaijani aggression.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:33 AM on May 30
posted by Apocryphon at 10:33 AM on May 30
Armenia is a Russian ally, the CSTO has just been completely derelict in its supposed duty to defend in the face of Azerbaijani aggression.
This is a very surface level understanding of what has long been a fundamentally exploitative, imperialist relationship. Armenia is not a Russian ally, Armenia has been made to rely on Russia to survive against two much stronger countries that have committed genocide against Armenians, and it has been made to do so despite Russia actively playing both sides and providing resources and assistance to Azerbaijan. The CSTO’s “dereliction of duty” was caused by Armenia finally showing a willingness to break with Russia and seek support elsewhere (Iran, India, the US, etc), not vice versa.
If you’re an ally insomuch as you accept not being allowed to form alliances with anybody else while your supposed “ally” economically exploits you and quietly supports an enemy that wants to commit genocide against you, you’re not an ally, you’re on the wrong end of an abusive relationship.
posted by Method Man at 10:42 AM on May 30 [2 favorites]
This is a very surface level understanding of what has long been a fundamentally exploitative, imperialist relationship. Armenia is not a Russian ally, Armenia has been made to rely on Russia to survive against two much stronger countries that have committed genocide against Armenians, and it has been made to do so despite Russia actively playing both sides and providing resources and assistance to Azerbaijan. The CSTO’s “dereliction of duty” was caused by Armenia finally showing a willingness to break with Russia and seek support elsewhere (Iran, India, the US, etc), not vice versa.
If you’re an ally insomuch as you accept not being allowed to form alliances with anybody else while your supposed “ally” economically exploits you and quietly supports an enemy that wants to commit genocide against you, you’re not an ally, you’re on the wrong end of an abusive relationship.
posted by Method Man at 10:42 AM on May 30 [2 favorites]
No point to doing this utterly patronizing "ummmm ya know ONE of them is gonna be president right, smirk emoji" bullshit unless you seriously just wish to see this effort undermined.
If I believed that your comments in this thread in particular and those of some others in general were intended to be a pressure tactic, that's all fine and good. But I don't have any reason to believe that. I doubt any Dem party folks are reading this to take the temperature of the Mood of Metafilter for their suggestions to the White House and so I have no reason to not take such comments literally.
posted by tclark at 10:54 AM on May 30 [1 favorite]
If I believed that your comments in this thread in particular and those of some others in general were intended to be a pressure tactic, that's all fine and good. But I don't have any reason to believe that. I doubt any Dem party folks are reading this to take the temperature of the Mood of Metafilter for their suggestions to the White House and so I have no reason to not take such comments literally.
posted by tclark at 10:54 AM on May 30 [1 favorite]
caviar2d2: this comment here (not yours) is an excellent example of the genre, for instance.
I was being completely sincere. Please don't accuse other users of insincerity.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 11:09 AM on May 30 [1 favorite]
I was being completely sincere. Please don't accuse other users of insincerity.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 11:09 AM on May 30 [1 favorite]
Do you really not care if people stay home and don't vote for Biden or are you just resigned to the fact that there's nothing you/we can say to change their minds? 'Cause I would definitely prefer that Trump not become president so I care quite a bit even if I agree that changing minds is difficult if not impossible.
posted by Justinian at 11:16 AM on May 30
posted by Justinian at 11:16 AM on May 30
I think at this point that the people thinking like that recognize that their choices make Trump winning more likely and are okay with that. I don't think Trump winning would hurt me personally, so... okay. You do you.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 11:23 AM on May 30 [1 favorite]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 11:23 AM on May 30 [1 favorite]
And to expand a bit on my previous comment, if you're saying you're withholding your vote as a pressure tactic to shift current policy on Israel, by all means do so. More power to you, and I fervently hope you succeed. All of my comments literally do not apply to you. I've (repeatedly now) said that regardless of how you've applied pressure now and throughout the campaign, when you have a ballot in front of you, you must follow your conscience in full awareness of the futures that may lie ahead.
posted by tclark at 11:32 AM on May 30 [8 favorites]
posted by tclark at 11:32 AM on May 30 [8 favorites]
I was being completely sincere. Please don't accuse other users of insincerity.
My understanding is the genre was not insincerity but "asking them to "keep their mouths shut" and vote for Biden."
Your statement in question was:
So stay home. Convince all your friends to stay home. Spend lots of hours on the internet convincing lots of strangers to stay home. See what you get; I'm done caring.
If you don't interpret your statement as "asking them to "keep their mouths shut" and vote for Biden," then there's not really much to discuss.
posted by CPAnarchist at 1:40 PM on May 30 [5 favorites]
My understanding is the genre was not insincerity but "asking them to "keep their mouths shut" and vote for Biden."
Your statement in question was:
So stay home. Convince all your friends to stay home. Spend lots of hours on the internet convincing lots of strangers to stay home. See what you get; I'm done caring.
If you don't interpret your statement as "asking them to "keep their mouths shut" and vote for Biden," then there's not really much to discuss.
posted by CPAnarchist at 1:40 PM on May 30 [5 favorites]
Yes, there is not much to discuss. I meant the literal meaning of what I said.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 2:18 PM on May 30
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 2:18 PM on May 30
@ExileGrimm: 2016 if third parties had swung to the major parties roughly aligned with their ideologies (Libertarians - R, Green - D)
and
and
Do you think most libertarians would REALLY vote for Trump?"posted by Apocryphon at 3:23 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]
And I was like "A higher percentage of libertarians would vote for Trump with no other option than green would vote for Hillary, but more importantly they outnumber green 4:1
Heh: Unable to Defend Biden’s Gaza Policy on Its Merits, Elite Pundits Turn to Anti-Zoomer Psychobabble - According to mainstream commentators, kids these days are opposing U.S.-backed mass killing because of Chinese psyops, rigid groupthink and social contagion.
posted by cendawanita at 11:35 PM on May 30 [11 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 11:35 PM on May 30 [11 favorites]
Just make sure if you're not voting for Biden to let HIM know loudly and frequently, and why. That's the only way it matters.
NBC: How Biden aides are trying to shield the president from protests -
The president's team has deployed tactics such as hosting smaller events and withholding their precise locations from the media and the public to minimize disruptions.
Also, earlier, Politico: Dems in full-blown ‘freakout’ over Biden -
One adviser to major Democratic donors keeps a running list of reasons Biden could lose.
All year, Democrats had been on a joyless and exhausting grind through the 2024 election. But now, nearly five months from the election, anxiety has morphed into palpable trepidation, according to more than a dozen party leaders and operatives. And the gap between what Democrats will say on TV or in print, and what they’ll text their friends, has only grown as worries have surged about Biden’s prospects.
“You don’t want to be that guy who is on the record saying we’re doomed, or the campaign’s bad or Biden’s making mistakes. Nobody wants to be that guy,” said a Democratic operative in close touch with the White House and granted anonymity to speak freely.
But Biden’s stubbornly poor polling and the stakes of the election “are creating the freakout,” he said.
(Which makes this Isaac Chotiner interview with Democratic Party strategist Simon Rosenberg even more remarkable.)
posted by cendawanita at 12:32 AM on May 31 [10 favorites]
NBC: How Biden aides are trying to shield the president from protests -
The president's team has deployed tactics such as hosting smaller events and withholding their precise locations from the media and the public to minimize disruptions.
Also, earlier, Politico: Dems in full-blown ‘freakout’ over Biden -
One adviser to major Democratic donors keeps a running list of reasons Biden could lose.
All year, Democrats had been on a joyless and exhausting grind through the 2024 election. But now, nearly five months from the election, anxiety has morphed into palpable trepidation, according to more than a dozen party leaders and operatives. And the gap between what Democrats will say on TV or in print, and what they’ll text their friends, has only grown as worries have surged about Biden’s prospects.
“You don’t want to be that guy who is on the record saying we’re doomed, or the campaign’s bad or Biden’s making mistakes. Nobody wants to be that guy,” said a Democratic operative in close touch with the White House and granted anonymity to speak freely.
But Biden’s stubbornly poor polling and the stakes of the election “are creating the freakout,” he said.
(Which makes this Isaac Chotiner interview with Democratic Party strategist Simon Rosenberg even more remarkable.)
posted by cendawanita at 12:32 AM on May 31 [10 favorites]
...never mind Iran-Contra, Watergate, the Gulf of Tonkin, and all that came before.
Ya think? I was here for all that, the Cuban Missile Crisis, assassinations of Kennedy, Kennedy and King. And so on 911 Iraq to Putin prepares tactical warhead drill in Belarus and so on. We have always been living on the knife's edge. History has been shared PTSD for us all since forever.
posted by y2karl at 2:02 AM on May 31 [3 favorites]
Ya think? I was here for all that, the Cuban Missile Crisis, assassinations of Kennedy, Kennedy and King. And so on 911 Iraq to Putin prepares tactical warhead drill in Belarus and so on. We have always been living on the knife's edge. History has been shared PTSD for us all since forever.
posted by y2karl at 2:02 AM on May 31 [3 favorites]
(Which makes this Isaac Chotiner interview with Democratic Party strategist Simon Rosenberg even more remarkable.)
Giving me a little hope as though it’s a pitiful thing to see in a battle between FiveThirtyEight and a Democratic insider over who can be the most wrong FiveThirtyEight is always going to carry it.
posted by Artw at 5:58 AM on May 31 [2 favorites]
Giving me a little hope as though it’s a pitiful thing to see in a battle between FiveThirtyEight and a Democratic insider over who can be the most wrong FiveThirtyEight is always going to carry it.
posted by Artw at 5:58 AM on May 31 [2 favorites]
you can cow voters with the threat of worse
Turns out that, for the Arab-American Muslim voters who provided most of Biden's margin of victory in Michigan in 2020, you can't, actually, cow them with the threat that Trump is worse.
Hamad said he has voted for Democrats all his life and voted enthusiastically for Biden in 2020. He knew Biden considered himself a Zionist, but that didn’t matter much to him. Although Palestinian self-determination has always been important to Hamad, it wasn’t the only issue he cared about. He liked Biden’s stances on health care, taxes and social justice. “Traditionally, I’ve been a pragmatist,” said Hamad.
The past six months threw all that out of the window. He’d hoped Biden would see the moral urgency of a ceasefire; that the country’s opinions on the war and on Palestinian self-determination were changing. He’d hoped that by voting for Uncommitted he and thousands of others would show Biden that his position was unwise not just morally, but politically.
A few weeks after the primary, he no longer believed that the president would change his mind. Biden hadn’t, in his view, made any significant movement in the right direction. Hamad had come to see the president as complicit in the slaughter of a people, unmoved by protest and demonstrations.
Two of Hamad’s aunts still live in Gaza, as do more members of his extended family – cousins, great-aunts and great-uncles – than he can count. A single Israeli assault killed 30 of them, he told me. There are days, he said, when he can’t stop himself from seeking out and obsessively watching the brutality and suffering happening in his family’s ancestral home.
As president, Trump had issued a travel ban for citizens of seven Muslim-majority countries in Africa and the Middle East. But for Hamad, there is no balancing the virtue of Biden’s domestic policies against, as he put it, “a genocide that’s being livestreamed”. He has lost all faith in the president’s good intentions. “How could I trust him to take care of my children? To act on climate change? To pursue social justice?”
“Look, I hate Trump,” he continued. “With every fibre of my being. I know what he is. But I’ve talked to so many people who voted for [Biden] whose attitude is now, ‘we have to make [him] lose, at any cost. And rather than voting for a third party, I’m going to double my vote and vote for Trump.’ It shocked me at first. But you want to do everything you can to make him pay the price.”
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:32 AM on May 31 [9 favorites]
Turns out that, for the Arab-American Muslim voters who provided most of Biden's margin of victory in Michigan in 2020, you can't, actually, cow them with the threat that Trump is worse.
Hamad said he has voted for Democrats all his life and voted enthusiastically for Biden in 2020. He knew Biden considered himself a Zionist, but that didn’t matter much to him. Although Palestinian self-determination has always been important to Hamad, it wasn’t the only issue he cared about. He liked Biden’s stances on health care, taxes and social justice. “Traditionally, I’ve been a pragmatist,” said Hamad.
The past six months threw all that out of the window. He’d hoped Biden would see the moral urgency of a ceasefire; that the country’s opinions on the war and on Palestinian self-determination were changing. He’d hoped that by voting for Uncommitted he and thousands of others would show Biden that his position was unwise not just morally, but politically.
A few weeks after the primary, he no longer believed that the president would change his mind. Biden hadn’t, in his view, made any significant movement in the right direction. Hamad had come to see the president as complicit in the slaughter of a people, unmoved by protest and demonstrations.
Two of Hamad’s aunts still live in Gaza, as do more members of his extended family – cousins, great-aunts and great-uncles – than he can count. A single Israeli assault killed 30 of them, he told me. There are days, he said, when he can’t stop himself from seeking out and obsessively watching the brutality and suffering happening in his family’s ancestral home.
As president, Trump had issued a travel ban for citizens of seven Muslim-majority countries in Africa and the Middle East. But for Hamad, there is no balancing the virtue of Biden’s domestic policies against, as he put it, “a genocide that’s being livestreamed”. He has lost all faith in the president’s good intentions. “How could I trust him to take care of my children? To act on climate change? To pursue social justice?”
“Look, I hate Trump,” he continued. “With every fibre of my being. I know what he is. But I’ve talked to so many people who voted for [Biden] whose attitude is now, ‘we have to make [him] lose, at any cost. And rather than voting for a third party, I’m going to double my vote and vote for Trump.’ It shocked me at first. But you want to do everything you can to make him pay the price.”
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:32 AM on May 31 [9 favorites]
Certainly an area where I would advise Johnny Vote-scold absolutely not to bother trying their schtick as they’ll just look like an idiot or make things worse.
posted by Artw at 10:10 AM on May 31 [8 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:10 AM on May 31 [8 favorites]
"I think at this point that the people thinking like that recognize that their choices make Trump winning more likely and are okay with that. I don't think Trump winning would hurt me personally, so... okay. You do you."
Conversely some of us are aware that Trump is a "greater danger (domestically)", but.
Unlike certain conservative/moderate minded people recognize there's more to the world than just "me personally".
I'm reminded of the anti-pot Republican legislator in my state who was all pro-drug war til "personally" she got cancer, suddenly she has "empathy" (but only for people who had the same disease she has, not just anyone and certainly who gives a fuck about "those other brown skinned people" - lock them up (or murder them).
This is the same mentality that pretends it's about caring for others, but still making it personal.
I do not look forward to Trump winning. And I do not look forward to the left being blamed instead of Biden being able to be a competent candidate (look I'm sorry he's literally more unpopular than any president in the past 50 years (You have to go all the way back to Nixon). I'm not saying it's justified that he's so unpopular, I think in the aggregate (domestically) he has not been as bad as he could have been, and a lot of the worst is due to the pressure from the right.
But if you want to talk about moral principles and stances and where they come from? It seems "personally" is doing a lot of lifting and you're relying on using a conservative selfish metric, when there are those of us who feel that our privileges, rights and responsibilities are nothing if a genocide is being perpetrated in our name and with our tax money. And if the person on "my" side happens to just be cool with that, I'm not sure I'm cool with him.
You're a nationalist with more concern about your own welfare than any sort of "solidarity" and yet you demand the same solidarity because we live in the same country? I have many queer and trans friends and I'm non-binary. But appealing to our egos is the wrong tactic when you're talking to people who are talking about mass murder of people on a scale that is horrifying. You only care about innocent loss if its "personal" or at least that's the argument you're trying to strawman us with.
Maybe not everyone sees the world the same way you do, and thinks there are greater things at play, and principles beyond a hypothetical (likely) bad thing where there is an absolutely active currently bad thing.
I am still undecided. I am not just going to hand over a vote because "bad boogie man" I have voted for every election for the same reason and we are not getting ANYWHERE. We have minor success in recognition, but that's merely because we had a supreme court that was nice to us couple times (and we still have to fight the reactionaries, regardless of who's in power).
The political system is broken, and if all you have to offer is lesser of two evils while the plunge to hell continues, well what exactly do you propose to force them to wake the fuck up and stop supporting genocide? Or is it that you're ok with genocide so long as it's not personally affecting you, then suddenly you care.
IDFK, these are hard issues, and it would be nice if maybe people didn't pretend it was fucking black and white or that those of us who are trying to put pressure to stop this madness are the bad guys instead of you know, the people sending bombs and weapons to the genocidal regime.
But I guess as long as its only about "personal" issues, why should we care.
(Yes "trump is worse" but again, we're going to have these fights with or without) and if you have enough faith in the Dems to fight against Trump (I mean you do believe they'll fight him) then maybe they'd do better actually fighting him when he's in power instead of mollycoddling him all the way to the election just so they have a boogieman to scare us into voting for Biden.
Just tired of "personally" being an excuse for moral political action when I see it so often used by the conservative wing who only ever gives a fuck about an issue once they experience it first hand and THEN they seem to care.
I grew up in homophobic America, I know what it's like to be called "f*****" and beat up. Even if at the time I didn't even know I was queer. i know the dangers involved. I know we live in a scary country and that this country will continue to be scary, but right now, there are thousands up thousands of people being murdered with the complicity of "my guy" and damnit, I have a moral responsibility to speak out.
Nothing "personal"
posted by symbioid at 12:11 PM on May 31 [12 favorites]
Conversely some of us are aware that Trump is a "greater danger (domestically)", but.
Unlike certain conservative/moderate minded people recognize there's more to the world than just "me personally".
I'm reminded of the anti-pot Republican legislator in my state who was all pro-drug war til "personally" she got cancer, suddenly she has "empathy" (but only for people who had the same disease she has, not just anyone and certainly who gives a fuck about "those other brown skinned people" - lock them up (or murder them).
This is the same mentality that pretends it's about caring for others, but still making it personal.
I do not look forward to Trump winning. And I do not look forward to the left being blamed instead of Biden being able to be a competent candidate (look I'm sorry he's literally more unpopular than any president in the past 50 years (You have to go all the way back to Nixon). I'm not saying it's justified that he's so unpopular, I think in the aggregate (domestically) he has not been as bad as he could have been, and a lot of the worst is due to the pressure from the right.
But if you want to talk about moral principles and stances and where they come from? It seems "personally" is doing a lot of lifting and you're relying on using a conservative selfish metric, when there are those of us who feel that our privileges, rights and responsibilities are nothing if a genocide is being perpetrated in our name and with our tax money. And if the person on "my" side happens to just be cool with that, I'm not sure I'm cool with him.
You're a nationalist with more concern about your own welfare than any sort of "solidarity" and yet you demand the same solidarity because we live in the same country? I have many queer and trans friends and I'm non-binary. But appealing to our egos is the wrong tactic when you're talking to people who are talking about mass murder of people on a scale that is horrifying. You only care about innocent loss if its "personal" or at least that's the argument you're trying to strawman us with.
Maybe not everyone sees the world the same way you do, and thinks there are greater things at play, and principles beyond a hypothetical (likely) bad thing where there is an absolutely active currently bad thing.
I am still undecided. I am not just going to hand over a vote because "bad boogie man" I have voted for every election for the same reason and we are not getting ANYWHERE. We have minor success in recognition, but that's merely because we had a supreme court that was nice to us couple times (and we still have to fight the reactionaries, regardless of who's in power).
The political system is broken, and if all you have to offer is lesser of two evils while the plunge to hell continues, well what exactly do you propose to force them to wake the fuck up and stop supporting genocide? Or is it that you're ok with genocide so long as it's not personally affecting you, then suddenly you care.
IDFK, these are hard issues, and it would be nice if maybe people didn't pretend it was fucking black and white or that those of us who are trying to put pressure to stop this madness are the bad guys instead of you know, the people sending bombs and weapons to the genocidal regime.
But I guess as long as its only about "personal" issues, why should we care.
(Yes "trump is worse" but again, we're going to have these fights with or without) and if you have enough faith in the Dems to fight against Trump (I mean you do believe they'll fight him) then maybe they'd do better actually fighting him when he's in power instead of mollycoddling him all the way to the election just so they have a boogieman to scare us into voting for Biden.
Just tired of "personally" being an excuse for moral political action when I see it so often used by the conservative wing who only ever gives a fuck about an issue once they experience it first hand and THEN they seem to care.
I grew up in homophobic America, I know what it's like to be called "f*****" and beat up. Even if at the time I didn't even know I was queer. i know the dangers involved. I know we live in a scary country and that this country will continue to be scary, but right now, there are thousands up thousands of people being murdered with the complicity of "my guy" and damnit, I have a moral responsibility to speak out.
Nothing "personal"
posted by symbioid at 12:11 PM on May 31 [12 favorites]
Certainly an area where I would advise Johnny Vote-scold absolutely not to bother trying their schtick as they’ll just look like an idiot or make things worse.
If someone believes that the US president has absolute political power to fix old problems, then they will vote for the candidate who also believes the same. Humans easily conclude that a strong man willing to silence or crush opponents is the same guy they should beg such favors from.
posted by Brian B. at 12:57 PM on May 31
If someone believes that the US president has absolute political power to fix old problems, then they will vote for the candidate who also believes the same. Humans easily conclude that a strong man willing to silence or crush opponents is the same guy they should beg such favors from.
posted by Brian B. at 12:57 PM on May 31
If someone believes that the US president has absolute political power to fix old problems
Absolutely awesome failure to read what was being replied to; this isn't about "fixing old problems", this is about not voting for the guy who's arming and funding the genocide of their family members.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:00 PM on May 31 [11 favorites]
this isn't about "fixing old problems"
It is to one of the candidates, but his middle east envoy son-in-law sees it slightly differently.
posted by Brian B. at 1:19 PM on May 31
It is to one of the candidates, but his middle east envoy son-in-law sees it slightly differently.
posted by Brian B. at 1:19 PM on May 31
It is to one of the candidates
Who is not currently president. Joe Biden is. It's Biden's unequivocal support of Israel as it commits genocide that's lost him a significant number of voters who voted for him in 2020 and now will not vote for him for any reason, regardless of who the other candidate may be.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:27 PM on May 31 [4 favorites]
Who is not currently president. Joe Biden is. It's Biden's unequivocal support of Israel as it commits genocide that's lost him a significant number of voters who voted for him in 2020 and now will not vote for him for any reason, regardless of who the other candidate may be.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:27 PM on May 31 [4 favorites]
If you make it a choice between Biden and Trump, any reasonable person must choose Biden.
If you eliminate Trump as an option, as any rational person must do, then you are faced with a binary choice: to vote for Biden or not to vote. A vote for Biden signals approval for Biden to carry on as he has been. Failing to vote is a refusal to endorse him.
I'm not sure what anyone should do. But I would argue that the choice is not the same for all of us, and it is a mistake to presume it is.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:29 PM on May 31
If you eliminate Trump as an option, as any rational person must do, then you are faced with a binary choice: to vote for Biden or not to vote. A vote for Biden signals approval for Biden to carry on as he has been. Failing to vote is a refusal to endorse him.
I'm not sure what anyone should do. But I would argue that the choice is not the same for all of us, and it is a mistake to presume it is.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:29 PM on May 31
If you make it a choice between Biden and Trump, any reasonable person must choose Biden.
I don't know, if 80 of my family members were killed by the genocidal regime Biden's been enthusiastically supporting, while shielding from consequences, I'd probably vote for his opponent, too. And I wouldn't think that there was anything unreasonable in doing so.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:34 PM on May 31 [5 favorites]
I don't know, if 80 of my family members were killed by the genocidal regime Biden's been enthusiastically supporting, while shielding from consequences, I'd probably vote for his opponent, too. And I wouldn't think that there was anything unreasonable in doing so.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:34 PM on May 31 [5 favorites]
So ... the basic problem is that Gazans aren't being killed fast enough, so you wanna double-down? Odd thing to admit in public.
If no vote for any presidential candidate will change the outcome on this issue, then abstaining is hardly "doubling down". Go use that logic on all the people in Michigan who've seen their relatives slaughtered with US-provided weapons for the past 7 months who won't be voting for Biden and see how far it gets you.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:56 PM on May 31 [1 favorite]
If no vote for any presidential candidate will change the outcome on this issue, then abstaining is hardly "doubling down". Go use that logic on all the people in Michigan who've seen their relatives slaughtered with US-provided weapons for the past 7 months who won't be voting for Biden and see how far it gets you.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:56 PM on May 31 [1 favorite]
One can fully understand why some people might feel like defeating Biden by helping Trump get elected is reasonable while still feeling negatively about people helping Trump get elected. Trump is going to hurt very, very many people and if and when that happens I don't think people he hurts are going to be parsing the reasons why various people put him in a position to do so. And that's reasonable, just like the fact that there are people who feel like hurting Biden because of his policies re Israel and Gaza is reasonable.
We all make choices and sometimes there aren't any good ones.
posted by Justinian at 3:32 PM on May 31 [2 favorites]
We all make choices and sometimes there aren't any good ones.
posted by Justinian at 3:32 PM on May 31 [2 favorites]
> Conversely some of us are aware that Trump is a "greater danger (domestically)", but. Unlike certain conservative/moderate minded people recognize there's more to the world than just "me personally".
I think that most people in this thread on the side of "voting for Biden is the easy decision" would agree with me when I say that Trump is the greater danger internationally as well.
To pick a recent example, when Iran fired hundreds of missiles at Israel, Biden did not escalate and discouraged Netenyahu from escalating (reportedly saying to him, "You got a win. Take the win"). Nobody knows for sure what would have happened if Trump had been president at the time, but it's hard to imagine him discouraging escalation, and easy to imagine escalation into a broader war.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 4:02 PM on May 31 [4 favorites]
I think that most people in this thread on the side of "voting for Biden is the easy decision" would agree with me when I say that Trump is the greater danger internationally as well.
To pick a recent example, when Iran fired hundreds of missiles at Israel, Biden did not escalate and discouraged Netenyahu from escalating (reportedly saying to him, "You got a win. Take the win"). Nobody knows for sure what would have happened if Trump had been president at the time, but it's hard to imagine him discouraging escalation, and easy to imagine escalation into a broader war.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 4:02 PM on May 31 [4 favorites]
That's definitely my position. Trump is by far the greater danger both domestically and internationally. The world is a big place and "internationally" encompasses way more than just Israel and Gaza. The rest of the Gulf region, Taiwan and China, Ukraine and Russia, NATO, North Korea, Central and South America, you name it and Trump may very well find a way to fuck it up.
posted by Justinian at 4:35 PM on May 31 [4 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 4:35 PM on May 31 [4 favorites]
maybe they'd do better actually fighting him when he's in power instead of mollycoddling him all the way to the election
gorsuch, kavanaugh and barrett are what the usa got the last time trump was in power, and this court will be dismantling all of our rights for another decade
putting trump back in office closes the door on changes to the court more or less for the remainder of most posters lives
good luck trying to organize around that
posted by lescour at 11:45 PM on June 2 [2 favorites]
gorsuch, kavanaugh and barrett are what the usa got the last time trump was in power, and this court will be dismantling all of our rights for another decade
putting trump back in office closes the door on changes to the court more or less for the remainder of most posters lives
good luck trying to organize around that
posted by lescour at 11:45 PM on June 2 [2 favorites]
Yeah, all the organizing and meetings and protests in the world won't accomplish much in the face of a 7-2 MAGA supreme court.
posted by Justinian at 9:54 AM on June 3
posted by Justinian at 9:54 AM on June 3
Now, who is the president who could have done something about that in the last four years...
Instead, better tighten [your] borders.
posted by sagc at 12:24 PM on June 4 [4 favorites]
Instead, better tighten [your] borders.
posted by sagc at 12:24 PM on June 4 [4 favorites]
About what? The SC? He did, he appointed Ketanji Brown Jackson. But none of the other seats have opened up so I'm not sure exactly what you think he could have done about that.
posted by Justinian at 12:43 PM on June 4 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 12:43 PM on June 4 [2 favorites]
He won an election by fewer than 80,000 votes spread across the tightest three states. And that's being generous! If you just pick one that put him over the edge with the largest margin, I think it's 40,000 votes.
His opponent had a scandal a day for 4 years. A cratered economy. A SIX FIGURE pandemic body count. Social norms and traditions shredded. And Biden won against THAT by fewer than 80,000 votes.
What in the ever loving fuck is he doing? Fucking with asylum seekers on top of everything in Gaza? He and his campaign staff are huffing something very strong and I want some of it.
posted by Slackermagee at 12:49 PM on June 4 [6 favorites]
His opponent had a scandal a day for 4 years. A cratered economy. A SIX FIGURE pandemic body count. Social norms and traditions shredded. And Biden won against THAT by fewer than 80,000 votes.
What in the ever loving fuck is he doing? Fucking with asylum seekers on top of everything in Gaza? He and his campaign staff are huffing something very strong and I want some of it.
posted by Slackermagee at 12:49 PM on June 4 [6 favorites]
But none of the other seats have opened up so I'm not sure exactly what you think he could have done about that.Packing the court would be nice.
posted by april of time at 5:25 PM on June 4 [1 favorite]
It’s okay, I have it on good authority he can’t really do anything so obviously the terrible shitting on asylum seekers shit isn’t happening.
posted by Artw at 5:34 PM on June 4 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 5:34 PM on June 4 [1 favorite]
What in the ever loving fuck is he doing? Fucking with asylum seekers on top of everything in Gaza? He and his campaign staff are huffing something very strong and I want some of it.
I submit that if you think Biden's move today will hurt his electoral chances, you might want to do a bit more research on current popular opinion in the U.S. regarding immigration.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 5:51 PM on June 4
I submit that if you think Biden's move today will hurt his electoral chances, you might want to do a bit more research on current popular opinion in the U.S. regarding immigration.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 5:51 PM on June 4
Yes we know America is dumb and cruel and racist.
You can’t actually get more votes by being more dumb and cruel and racist though, there’s a party that has that sown up. He either wants to be dumb and cruel or he’s just doing it for nothing. It’s stupidity.
posted by Artw at 5:56 PM on June 4 [7 favorites]
You can’t actually get more votes by being more dumb and cruel and racist though, there’s a party that has that sown up. He either wants to be dumb and cruel or he’s just doing it for nothing. It’s stupidity.
posted by Artw at 5:56 PM on June 4 [7 favorites]
I submit that if you think Biden's move today will hurt his electoral chances, you might want to do a bit more research on current popular opinion in the U.S. regarding immigration.
Trying to outfash Trump is a bold strategy.
If Biden manages to lose to fucking Donald Trump by alienating Hispanic and Muslim voters, I don't want to hear anyone whining about leftists costing him the election. I mean, I will, but I won't want to.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:58 PM on June 4 [5 favorites]
Trying to outfash Trump is a bold strategy.
If Biden manages to lose to fucking Donald Trump by alienating Hispanic and Muslim voters, I don't want to hear anyone whining about leftists costing him the election. I mean, I will, but I won't want to.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:58 PM on June 4 [5 favorites]
The policy seems bad to me and I don't know precisely why he's doing it now (unless he thinks its the right policy I guess) but there's no reason to think it'll meaningful affect his chances. The polling has been remarkably stable for a long time now, and his weakness in the polling with Hispanic voters long predates any of this. They just seem to like Trump (more than previous Republicans) for no reason I can fathom. I guess its possible the Muslim voters thing could cost him the election but it would mean he lost Michigan while winning Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and I don't think that's going to happen. (ie I think he either wins or loses all of them).
In any case, if he loses there will be a million reasons and I'm sure the fingers will be pointing in every direction at once. But it will have to grapple with the fact that his polling now is not meaningful worse than it was before this or before the Gaza invasion. And it will have to grapple with the fact that a loooot of people, including young men of color for whatever insane reason, really like Donald Trump.
When we ask with incredulity "how could XXXXX lose to this guy" because we see how awful Trump is, it's hard to grapple with the truth which is that the answer is "because a loooooooot of Americans really like Donald Trump". They do! A lot hate him too. Which is how he lost as an incumbent in 2020. But... and I still have trouble believing it... an equal number do actually want the guy to be President.
If he wins it'll be because more people wanted him to be President than any other person in history save Biden in 2020.
posted by Justinian at 6:30 PM on June 4 [1 favorite]
In any case, if he loses there will be a million reasons and I'm sure the fingers will be pointing in every direction at once. But it will have to grapple with the fact that his polling now is not meaningful worse than it was before this or before the Gaza invasion. And it will have to grapple with the fact that a loooot of people, including young men of color for whatever insane reason, really like Donald Trump.
When we ask with incredulity "how could XXXXX lose to this guy" because we see how awful Trump is, it's hard to grapple with the truth which is that the answer is "because a loooooooot of Americans really like Donald Trump". They do! A lot hate him too. Which is how he lost as an incumbent in 2020. But... and I still have trouble believing it... an equal number do actually want the guy to be President.
If he wins it'll be because more people wanted him to be President than any other person in history save Biden in 2020.
posted by Justinian at 6:30 PM on June 4 [1 favorite]
The ultimate point here, which is that chaos agents benefit from low trust, is important.
If the temper of Metafilter comments is an indicator, we are all doomed.
posted by ovvl at 8:43 PM on June 4
If the temper of Metafilter comments is an indicator, we are all doomed.
posted by ovvl at 8:43 PM on June 4
In the spirit of this FPP ("empire"), I share with you the Time interview with Biden, titled, ‘We Are the World Power.’ How Joe Biden Leads (they also posted the full interview transcript). A buffet of imperial core sympathetic coverage, take your pick. And yet, for all that--
posted by cendawanita at 4:35 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 4:35 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
Centrist: Politics is all about compromise.
Me: So compromise with the left
Centrist: Oh God no, I meant compromise with racists
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:19 AM on June 5 [9 favorites]
Me: So compromise with the left
Centrist: Oh God no, I meant compromise with racists
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:19 AM on June 5 [9 favorites]
Trump and the GOP: Crooked Joe Biden is Legalizing Illegal Immigration
Oh well try harder next time, maybe one more notch on the racism dial will sway them.
posted by Artw at 12:39 PM on June 5 [8 favorites]
Oh well try harder next time, maybe one more notch on the racism dial will sway them.
posted by Artw at 12:39 PM on June 5 [8 favorites]
The policy seems bad to me and I don't know precisely why he's doing it now
The answer to that should be pretty obvious; his policies on Gaza and support of Israel have alienated a significant number of voters on the left, so he's running to the right in the hopes of scooping up the racist/xenophobe vote and counting on pandering on immigration and Trump's conviction being enough to win without having to concede anything to the left.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:05 PM on June 5 [3 favorites]
The answer to that should be pretty obvious; his policies on Gaza and support of Israel have alienated a significant number of voters on the left, so he's running to the right in the hopes of scooping up the racist/xenophobe vote and counting on pandering on immigration and Trump's conviction being enough to win without having to concede anything to the left.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:05 PM on June 5 [3 favorites]
I just saw a paper (and goddammit I can't find the link) that said that historically, center-left parties that attempted to run to the right just alienated their core base while looking weak compared to the right parties, so it really didn't help matters.
After all, if you are a big idiot and think in the face of both practical and research evidence that we ought to close the borders and that we have an "immigration crisis", isn't Trump going to look much more attractive? Are there a lot of people who would vote for Biden if he only defied international law about refugee status?
posted by Frowner at 1:17 PM on June 5 [8 favorites]
After all, if you are a big idiot and think in the face of both practical and research evidence that we ought to close the borders and that we have an "immigration crisis", isn't Trump going to look much more attractive? Are there a lot of people who would vote for Biden if he only defied international law about refugee status?
posted by Frowner at 1:17 PM on June 5 [8 favorites]
It’s a stupid policy, but it doesn’t matter, because as above re:crime it absolutely isn’t about policy or the effects of policy on the external world, it’s about having the correct vibes and appealing to people’s bad instincts and inner demons. You think anyone is going to appeal to bad instincts and inner demons better than Trump? He’s basically running as a manifestation of id.
posted by Artw at 1:31 PM on June 5 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:31 PM on June 5 [4 favorites]
Trying to outfash Trump is a bold strategy.
If Biden manages to lose to fucking Donald Trump by alienating Hispanic and Muslim voters, I don't want to hear anyone whining about leftists costing him the election.
Requiring asylum seekers to apply on the other side of the border, instead of crossing unlawfully and then applying on the U.S. side, is not on any list of characteristics of fascism that I'm familiar with.
I do know, however, that even my Democrat-voting Latino neighbor (whose Latino spouse is an undocumented immigrant) thinks that the border situation is chaotic and out of control. And my neighbor's twentysomething son has declared his intention to vote for Trump, partly as a result of this issue.
Assuming that anyone who wants somewhat more controlled immigration is racist, fascist, and anti-Latino is not a safe assumption.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 6:34 PM on June 5 [3 favorites]
If Biden manages to lose to fucking Donald Trump by alienating Hispanic and Muslim voters, I don't want to hear anyone whining about leftists costing him the election.
Requiring asylum seekers to apply on the other side of the border, instead of crossing unlawfully and then applying on the U.S. side, is not on any list of characteristics of fascism that I'm familiar with.
I do know, however, that even my Democrat-voting Latino neighbor (whose Latino spouse is an undocumented immigrant) thinks that the border situation is chaotic and out of control. And my neighbor's twentysomething son has declared his intention to vote for Trump, partly as a result of this issue.
Assuming that anyone who wants somewhat more controlled immigration is racist, fascist, and anti-Latino is not a safe assumption.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 6:34 PM on June 5 [3 favorites]
Unfortunately, you must be present within the boundaries of the U.S. to apply for asylum.
posted by tofu_crouton at 7:42 PM on June 5 [7 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 7:42 PM on June 5 [7 favorites]
Assuming that anyone who wants somewhat more controlled immigration is racist, fascist, and anti-Latino is not a safe assumption.
No, it seems to work pretty well. Most of the time, the folks repeating the fascist talking points are at least fascist adjacent. Which is at least refreshingly straightforward. It is certainly less grating than the alternative.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:51 PM on June 5 [3 favorites]
No, it seems to work pretty well. Most of the time, the folks repeating the fascist talking points are at least fascist adjacent. Which is at least refreshingly straightforward. It is certainly less grating than the alternative.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:51 PM on June 5 [3 favorites]
I didn't expect Biden to be some amazing leftist radical, but he put forth a platform in 2020. Things like saying he would:
Welcome immigrants in our communities
Reassert America’s commitment to asylum-seekers and refugees
Tackle the root causes of irregular migration
(All from his 2020 campaign's position paper on immigration.)
This flies in the face of all those promises. It is very obvious this is an effort to look effectual and draw right wing voters. His response to anger about the indifference he has shown to human life in Gaza, and his law and order response to the student protests is to adopt Republican border policies. That is going to leave a lot of people to his left disgusted.
This is abandoning the policies he ran and won on, in order to court people who are almost certainly going to be Trump voters. In 2020, his campaign recognized they needed to clearly distinguish themselves from the Republicans' border policies. Apparently not anymore.
A lot of innocent people are going to die because of this decision. Maybe it helps him win in 2024. Who knows?
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:00 PM on June 5 [5 favorites]
Welcome immigrants in our communities
Reassert America’s commitment to asylum-seekers and refugees
Tackle the root causes of irregular migration
(All from his 2020 campaign's position paper on immigration.)
This flies in the face of all those promises. It is very obvious this is an effort to look effectual and draw right wing voters. His response to anger about the indifference he has shown to human life in Gaza, and his law and order response to the student protests is to adopt Republican border policies. That is going to leave a lot of people to his left disgusted.
This is abandoning the policies he ran and won on, in order to court people who are almost certainly going to be Trump voters. In 2020, his campaign recognized they needed to clearly distinguish themselves from the Republicans' border policies. Apparently not anymore.
A lot of innocent people are going to die because of this decision. Maybe it helps him win in 2024. Who knows?
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:00 PM on June 5 [5 favorites]
This is how we got the entire Dem establishment voting for and implementing super-hateful shit like the "superpredator" legislation, the Defense of Marriage Act, and Don't Ask Don't Tell to mollify bigots. Of course, it blew up in their faces in 2000, so they've spent the last quarter of a century absolutely raging about how perfidious leftists are the ones that sabotaged their fash party, so here we are.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 3:14 AM on June 6 [8 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 3:14 AM on June 6 [8 favorites]
The border stuff really riles me up, partly because I am Texan but also because it was one of the reasons I told people to vote for Biden for 2020. Specifically, "at least there won't be kids in cages" and "at least he would protect abortion." We not only have kids in cages, but we also added razor wire obstacle courses to literally rip kids apart.
posted by tofu_crouton at 4:31 AM on June 6 [8 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 4:31 AM on June 6 [8 favorites]
I just would like to vote for a non-genocide AND a non-okay let's continue being tough on migrants option. It's sad that that feels like a huge ask anymore.
Unfortunately, you must be present within the boundaries of the U.S. to apply for asylum.
Same as in Canada. You claim asylum when you cross the border not at the other side.
posted by Kitteh at 6:17 AM on June 6 [3 favorites]
Unfortunately, you must be present within the boundaries of the U.S. to apply for asylum.
Same as in Canada. You claim asylum when you cross the border not at the other side.
posted by Kitteh at 6:17 AM on June 6 [3 favorites]
At this point I have to assume there's polling showing that white republican women in the suburbs will outweigh people protest voting the primary (or staying home). Running on abortion, punishing scary brown people at home (border security), and punishing scary brown people abroad (Gaza) really only targets one relatively large demographic? And this has not worked before at any time since 1990?
posted by Slackermagee at 6:26 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
posted by Slackermagee at 6:26 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
At this point I have to assume there's polling showing that white republican women in the suburbs will outweigh people protest voting the primary (or staying home).
I could believe it. I could also believe that Biden is in fact very racist and genuinely thinks of migrants and asylum seekers (and Palestinians) as scary brown hordes.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:52 AM on June 6 [3 favorites]
I could believe it. I could also believe that Biden is in fact very racist and genuinely thinks of migrants and asylum seekers (and Palestinians) as scary brown hordes.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:52 AM on June 6 [3 favorites]
I'd like to be clear in that yes I will be voting for Biden, but I resent not having better options. I resent that I have to choose between flat out evil and conciliatory let's give the shitty folks a sop to hopefully maybe get them to vote Democrat....while throwing migrants under the bus.
posted by Kitteh at 8:02 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
posted by Kitteh at 8:02 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
Same as in Canada. You claim asylum when you cross the border not at the other side.
That's just how asylum works. That's what asylum is. It's one thing for random private citizens not to know that but anybody seriously involved in politics who pretends you apply for asylum before entering is lying.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:15 PM on June 6 [3 favorites]
That's just how asylum works. That's what asylum is. It's one thing for random private citizens not to know that but anybody seriously involved in politics who pretends you apply for asylum before entering is lying.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:15 PM on June 6 [3 favorites]
At this point I have to assume there's polling showing that white republican women in the suburbs will outweigh people protest voting the primary (or staying home).
It's more like polling showing that Democratic voters think the border situation is out of control.
66% of Dems said it was either a major problem or a crisis in a February poll. Even 59% of liberals agreed.
In so many of these politics threads on MeFi, I'm struck by the bafflement about why Democratic politicians do the things they do, and the grasping for outré explanations, when the answer is usually, and obviously (if you make an effort to look at polling data), that this is what Democratic voters want them to do.
But no, that can't be! Everyone in my tiny echo chamber hates this policy! Therefore we can safely assume that all Democrats must agree! And these these highly successful Democratic politicians — who have been elected again and again by Democrats — are "pandering to fascists". LOL.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 3:22 PM on June 6
It's more like polling showing that Democratic voters think the border situation is out of control.
66% of Dems said it was either a major problem or a crisis in a February poll. Even 59% of liberals agreed.
In so many of these politics threads on MeFi, I'm struck by the bafflement about why Democratic politicians do the things they do, and the grasping for outré explanations, when the answer is usually, and obviously (if you make an effort to look at polling data), that this is what Democratic voters want them to do.
But no, that can't be! Everyone in my tiny echo chamber hates this policy! Therefore we can safely assume that all Democrats must agree! And these these highly successful Democratic politicians — who have been elected again and again by Democrats — are "pandering to fascists". LOL.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 3:22 PM on June 6
I don't know what you're getting at, I think I've made it pretty clear that Democratic politicians and their base find it perfectly acceptable being evil fucking bastards if the polling supports it.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 3:30 PM on June 6 [6 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 3:30 PM on June 6 [6 favorites]
What you are saying is that they are pandering to nativists because a lot of Democrats are as nativist as Republicans. Border control is the message for appealing to 66% of Dem voters, and "but we are not as nativist as them!" is the message to appeal to the other 34%?
posted by tofu_crouton at 3:41 PM on June 6 [3 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 3:41 PM on June 6 [3 favorites]
I resent not having better options
The way to do that is to create better options, not sit around waiting for them to magically appear. Maybe you personally could be the better option. Won't know if you don't try.
posted by aramaic at 4:03 PM on June 6
The way to do that is to create better options, not sit around waiting for them to magically appear. Maybe you personally could be the better option. Won't know if you don't try.
posted by aramaic at 4:03 PM on June 6
Maybe you personally could be the better option. Won't know if you don't try.
I dunno, am I allowed to run for anything even if I no longer live in the US? I can't create better options from a different country. I am currently making sure I have better options where I live (and will live for the rest of my life).
posted by Kitteh at 4:08 PM on June 6 [2 favorites]
I dunno, am I allowed to run for anything even if I no longer live in the US? I can't create better options from a different country. I am currently making sure I have better options where I live (and will live for the rest of my life).
posted by Kitteh at 4:08 PM on June 6 [2 favorites]
I actually help develop and promote local dem candidates. I am on the phone doing GOTV calls multiple periods of the year and listening to what voters say they are interested in. A lot of my bitterness comes from seeing people do so much hard work to get people enthusiastic about this party and then someone from the DNCC swoops in and gives all the money and publicity to the most unlikeable, right wing campaign or candidate they can.
The original article was about young voters being disillusioned with the Democratic party. A major part of their dissatisfaction is that it doesn't seem like there's a way to influence it. They have no evidence that if a random twenty-something is inspired by Metafilter and like-minded commentators, that they can step up and run for office. Instead what they are seeing is that if they run as a Democrat and speak up about things like genocide they would see the juggernaut turn against them.
posted by tofu_crouton at 4:17 PM on June 6 [7 favorites]
The original article was about young voters being disillusioned with the Democratic party. A major part of their dissatisfaction is that it doesn't seem like there's a way to influence it. They have no evidence that if a random twenty-something is inspired by Metafilter and like-minded commentators, that they can step up and run for office. Instead what they are seeing is that if they run as a Democrat and speak up about things like genocide they would see the juggernaut turn against them.
posted by tofu_crouton at 4:17 PM on June 6 [7 favorites]
I mean, isn't someone like AOC exactly that kind of evidence? Ok it wasn't metafilter but she was a random twenty something that took it upon herself to run for congress and she defeated the second ranking democrat in the House.
posted by Justinian at 5:10 PM on June 6
posted by Justinian at 5:10 PM on June 6
And these these highly successful Democratic politicians — who have been elected again and again by Democrats — are "pandering to fascists".
Yeah.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:39 PM on June 6 [3 favorites]
Yeah.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:39 PM on June 6 [3 favorites]
If you wish to convince yourself that the victory of fascism is unavoidable, you may choose to do so.
...just don't pretend you're not part of the Bando Nacional, in that case.
You'll note, perhaps amusingly, that your ideological opponents have no such concerns. They run for literally every possible office, using any language they think will help them win with whatever voting base they've managed to scrape together.
Ever wonder why it seems like they're always on the verge of winning?
I don't.
posted by aramaic at 5:52 PM on June 6
...just don't pretend you're not part of the Bando Nacional, in that case.
You'll note, perhaps amusingly, that your ideological opponents have no such concerns. They run for literally every possible office, using any language they think will help them win with whatever voting base they've managed to scrape together.
Ever wonder why it seems like they're always on the verge of winning?
I don't.
posted by aramaic at 5:52 PM on June 6
If you wish to convince yourself that the victory of fascism is unavoidable, you may choose to do so.
...just don't pretend you're not part of the Bando Nacional, in that case.
I have had to rewrite this first sentence a half-dozen times to make it civil. This is a genuinely disgusting thing to say.
Yes, I think the US is on an unavoidable course into fascism. I don't expect to survive it. I expect a lot of people I love won't either. We don't have the resources to run. And I am going to vote for a candidate directly supporting an ongoing genocide in the hopes that if it that fall into fascism happens a little bit slower some few more people might get out.
Ever wonder why it seems like they're always on the verge of winning?
I don't.
Me either.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:03 PM on June 6 [4 favorites]
...just don't pretend you're not part of the Bando Nacional, in that case.
I have had to rewrite this first sentence a half-dozen times to make it civil. This is a genuinely disgusting thing to say.
Yes, I think the US is on an unavoidable course into fascism. I don't expect to survive it. I expect a lot of people I love won't either. We don't have the resources to run. And I am going to vote for a candidate directly supporting an ongoing genocide in the hopes that if it that fall into fascism happens a little bit slower some few more people might get out.
Ever wonder why it seems like they're always on the verge of winning?
I don't.
Me either.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:03 PM on June 6 [4 favorites]
Sorry, aramaic. I just finished reading about the tortures Palestinian prisoners have reported, and I was sickened and angry about it, and all the other awful things, and about the fact I see no way not to be somehow complicit in it no matter what I do. I was in a pretty bleak place and I shouldn't have unloaded it on you. Please forgive me.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:21 PM on June 6 [2 favorites]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:21 PM on June 6 [2 favorites]
You'll note, perhaps amusingly, that your ideological opponents have no such concerns. They run for literally every possible office, using any language they think will help them win with whatever voting base they've managed to scrape together.
God, the smarmy tone here is awful. Y'all tell us to run for every office we can, then demonize us when we do, then yell at us when we lose because you think we're not running in the first place. It's just an excuse (and a factually inaccurate one at that) to enjoy punching hippies.
Meanwhile, here in the real world, there are plenty of leftists and progressives running for offices up and down the ballots, just follow accounts like Daniel Nichanian on social media and you'd probably be shocked. Not just at how many leftists run for downballot positions, either, but how many of them are smeared as extremists by moderates and their own party.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:29 AM on June 7 [9 favorites]
God, the smarmy tone here is awful. Y'all tell us to run for every office we can, then demonize us when we do, then yell at us when we lose because you think we're not running in the first place. It's just an excuse (and a factually inaccurate one at that) to enjoy punching hippies.
Meanwhile, here in the real world, there are plenty of leftists and progressives running for offices up and down the ballots, just follow accounts like Daniel Nichanian on social media and you'd probably be shocked. Not just at how many leftists run for downballot positions, either, but how many of them are smeared as extremists by moderates and their own party.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:29 AM on June 7 [9 favorites]
Apparently the American electorate isn't entirely on board with Biden's policies:
NAACP Asks Biden to Halt Weapons to Israel as He Seeks to Shore Up Black Voter Support
“The NAACP calls on President Biden to draw the red line and indefinitely end the shipment of all weapons and artillery to the state of Israel and other states that supply weapons to Hamas and other terrorist organizations. It is imperative that the violence that has claimed so many civilian lives, immediately stop,” the organization said in a statement first provided to Reuters.
Biden's tougher border stance tests Latino vote in Nevada
Under pressure from Republicans who accuse him of failing to control the border, Biden called on Congress last year to provide more enforcement funding and said he would "shut down the border" if given new authority to turn back migrants.
While that may placate moderates, it could dampen enthusiasm among more liberal Democrat voters and some Latinos.
"His tougher policies are making it extremely difficult for people on the ground that are getting out the vote," Ocampo said.
After backing him in 2020, a new poll shows some young voters are Biden's to lose
But among younger Black, Latino and Asian American voters, who overwhelmingly sided with Biden in 2020, and at higher rates than young white voters did, support has considerably faltered, according to the University of Chicago’s latest GenForward survey.
Maybe there is hope for this country.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:53 AM on June 7 [1 favorite]
NAACP Asks Biden to Halt Weapons to Israel as He Seeks to Shore Up Black Voter Support
“The NAACP calls on President Biden to draw the red line and indefinitely end the shipment of all weapons and artillery to the state of Israel and other states that supply weapons to Hamas and other terrorist organizations. It is imperative that the violence that has claimed so many civilian lives, immediately stop,” the organization said in a statement first provided to Reuters.
Biden's tougher border stance tests Latino vote in Nevada
Under pressure from Republicans who accuse him of failing to control the border, Biden called on Congress last year to provide more enforcement funding and said he would "shut down the border" if given new authority to turn back migrants.
While that may placate moderates, it could dampen enthusiasm among more liberal Democrat voters and some Latinos.
"His tougher policies are making it extremely difficult for people on the ground that are getting out the vote," Ocampo said.
After backing him in 2020, a new poll shows some young voters are Biden's to lose
But among younger Black, Latino and Asian American voters, who overwhelmingly sided with Biden in 2020, and at higher rates than young white voters did, support has considerably faltered, according to the University of Chicago’s latest GenForward survey.
Maybe there is hope for this country.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:53 AM on June 7 [1 favorite]
how many of them are smeared as extremists
This is how you can tell their positions are not as popular as you'd like them to be.
They should be.
...but they aren't.
...and that's the challenge, isn't it? Let's face it, clearly most US voters don't give a shit about dead kids in Gaza. They should, but they don't. So therein lies your challenge. The Right is exceptionally good at making every single news item a matter of key importance to every Decent American Family. The Left is spectacularly bad at it.
Does it matter if you were more philosophically correct if, in the end, you all get killed by the disingenous grifters?
posted by aramaic at 6:08 PM on June 8
This is how you can tell their positions are not as popular as you'd like them to be.
They should be.
...but they aren't.
...and that's the challenge, isn't it? Let's face it, clearly most US voters don't give a shit about dead kids in Gaza. They should, but they don't. So therein lies your challenge. The Right is exceptionally good at making every single news item a matter of key importance to every Decent American Family. The Left is spectacularly bad at it.
Does it matter if you were more philosophically correct if, in the end, you all get killed by the disingenous grifters?
posted by aramaic at 6:08 PM on June 8
Hell, at least half of US voters don't care about dead kids in America.
posted by Justinian at 6:26 PM on June 8
posted by Justinian at 6:26 PM on June 8
This is how you can tell their positions are not as popular as you'd like them to be.
No, this is how you can tell centrists are afraid their positions would be popular if they got a fair hearing. They wouldn't bother if they thought they were non-starters.
Does it matter if you were more philosophically correct if, in the end, you all get killed by the disingenous grifters?
Yeah. Because it means I wasn't the kind of person who would trade human lives for power.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:32 PM on June 8 [5 favorites]
No, this is how you can tell centrists are afraid their positions would be popular if they got a fair hearing. They wouldn't bother if they thought they were non-starters.
Does it matter if you were more philosophically correct if, in the end, you all get killed by the disingenous grifters?
Yeah. Because it means I wasn't the kind of person who would trade human lives for power.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:32 PM on June 8 [5 favorites]
Yeah. Because it means I wasn't the kind of person who would trade human lives for power.
i don't care that you personally won't vote against fascism, but throwing people into the meat grinder today for your hypothetical is deeply immoral
posted by lescour at 8:33 AM on June 10
i don't care that you personally won't vote against fascism, but throwing people into the meat grinder today for your hypothetical is deeply immoral
posted by lescour at 8:33 AM on June 10
what
biden is sending arms to the meat grinder, and making the border more of a meat grinder right now
posted by sagc at 8:37 AM on June 10 [4 favorites]
biden is sending arms to the meat grinder, and making the border more of a meat grinder right now
posted by sagc at 8:37 AM on June 10 [4 favorites]
USA_Polling: Trump ahead by 1% nationally while Biden is ahead in the battleground states by 1%
Biden winning the electoral college while losing the popular vote would be the most ironic turn for this country after 2000. Once again, swing state voters must shoulder the awful burden of being responsible for the fate of this nation. Everyone else in a solid state, vote to your heart's content.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:00 AM on June 10
Biden winning the electoral college while losing the popular vote would be the most ironic turn for this country after 2000. Once again, swing state voters must shoulder the awful burden of being responsible for the fate of this nation. Everyone else in a solid state, vote to your heart's content.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:00 AM on June 10
I would hope for jail time for Trump. He would say that it will guarantee his election, but in fact it will guarantee his comparisons to Hitler, which is how the Democrats should run against him. The right wing is crossing their fingers that nobody envisions their candidate beyond the word dictator, which most of America thinks is a mean person and not a constitution suspender.
posted by Brian B. at 11:12 AM on June 10
posted by Brian B. at 11:12 AM on June 10
I hope Biden wins both the electoral college and the popular vote, and by more is better, but if he did only win the former while losing the latter maybe we'd finally get some damn movement out of Republicans on moving to a popular vote.
spoiler: we wouldn't.
but a guy can dream
posted by Justinian at 1:46 PM on June 10 [1 favorite]
spoiler: we wouldn't.
but a guy can dream
posted by Justinian at 1:46 PM on June 10 [1 favorite]
Maybe some red governors would take a second look at the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact but probably not
posted by Apocryphon at 2:09 PM on June 10
posted by Apocryphon at 2:09 PM on June 10
i don't care that you personally won't vote against fascism, but throwing people into the meat grinder today for your hypothetical is deeply immoral
I didn't say anything about not voting. This seems like a non sequitur. Or maybe I am just not following you.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:57 PM on June 10 [2 favorites]
I didn't say anything about not voting. This seems like a non sequitur. Or maybe I am just not following you.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:57 PM on June 10 [2 favorites]
I understand deep in my soul the existential risk Trump poses. But I also get why young people are having a hard time joining fully in—it’s because of Gaza, above all. And we do not want a world where young people would not be hideously upset by Israel’s endless bombing campaign, a campaign of immiseration clearly designed, as Biden said this week, to protect Netanyahu’s political future. Though the media has seized on every example of left obtuseness they can find (usually from middle-aged college professors), the young people I’ve watched have been clear in their condemnation both of Hamas’ repulsive violence, and of anti-Semitism. And in part because of their hard work, Biden has shown more willingness to stand up to the repugnant Netanyahu and try to end the fighting even as he works to head off a regional war. The invaluable Kate Aronoff has a fine account of the Sunrise news in the New Republic yesterday, and she even bothered to call up the head of the thing and ask what it meant.
“Do we want to be fighting for a Green New Deal under a Trump presidency or a Biden presidency? To me, the answer is pretty clear,” Stevie O’Hanlon told me earlier today. “Donald Trump winning a second term is an existential threat to our climate and our democracy and will set back the fight for a Green New Deal.”
So yes, Gaza is complicated and nuanced. But a society needs people for whom complication and nuance are not central, and these are usually young people. They offer useful clarity. And if Biden eventually loses, it will be less because young people don’t support him than because old people don’t: there are far more of us, and we are not reliably voting in defense of the values we grew up with (like, respect, decency, kindness, and not getting convicted of felonies).
- Bill MicKibben, in his climate activism substack.
posted by tofu_crouton at 5:25 AM on June 12 [1 favorite]
“Do we want to be fighting for a Green New Deal under a Trump presidency or a Biden presidency? To me, the answer is pretty clear,” Stevie O’Hanlon told me earlier today. “Donald Trump winning a second term is an existential threat to our climate and our democracy and will set back the fight for a Green New Deal.”
So yes, Gaza is complicated and nuanced. But a society needs people for whom complication and nuance are not central, and these are usually young people. They offer useful clarity. And if Biden eventually loses, it will be less because young people don’t support him than because old people don’t: there are far more of us, and we are not reliably voting in defense of the values we grew up with (like, respect, decency, kindness, and not getting convicted of felonies).
- Bill MicKibben, in his climate activism substack.
posted by tofu_crouton at 5:25 AM on June 12 [1 favorite]
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posted by CynicalKnight at 10:31 AM on May 29 [31 favorites]