Pride Flag identification
June 6, 2024 8:58 AM Subscribe
Confused as to the meanings and colours of various Pride Flags? Well this site tells you! That's it. That's all it does.
Eah flag has a drop down Details section that gives a short definition, citations, origin and usage.
Happy Pride y'all !
Eah flag has a drop down Details section that gives a short definition, citations, origin and usage.
Happy Pride y'all !
Totes jealous of the UK gay pride flag.
posted by Kitteh at 9:13 AM on June 6 [2 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 9:13 AM on June 6 [2 favorites]
My night mode settings made the progress flag look like a white gay pride flag.
posted by constraint at 9:28 AM on June 6
posted by constraint at 9:28 AM on June 6
Lesbian Feminism as a movement sounds like it may be a mixed bag (particularly w/r/t trans issues) but damned if it doesn't have a good flag
posted by dismas at 9:29 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
posted by dismas at 9:29 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
This is helpful to me. Thank you and Happy Pride!
posted by jessamyn at 9:36 AM on June 6 [3 favorites]
posted by jessamyn at 9:36 AM on June 6 [3 favorites]
Not included on the site: the flag I've been seeing recently in Seattle is this one, which adds intersex pride to the Progress flag.
Textbook flag design says flags should be simple, but if you think about it the Pride flag is really an anti-flag. It's messy and cluttered because queerness is messy and cluttered. At least that's how I think about it.
I don't know much history, so I'm learning this stuff now: apparently, there was nearly a decade and a continent between the Black/brown/trans-led Stonewall riots (NYC 1969) and the first rainbow flag (San Francisco 1978). Which explains why the original rainbow flag might not have resonated with QTPOC, perhaps.
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:49 AM on June 6 [7 favorites]
Textbook flag design says flags should be simple, but if you think about it the Pride flag is really an anti-flag. It's messy and cluttered because queerness is messy and cluttered. At least that's how I think about it.
I don't know much history, so I'm learning this stuff now: apparently, there was nearly a decade and a continent between the Black/brown/trans-led Stonewall riots (NYC 1969) and the first rainbow flag (San Francisco 1978). Which explains why the original rainbow flag might not have resonated with QTPOC, perhaps.
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:49 AM on June 6 [7 favorites]
fwiw, the lipstick lesbian flag was created by someone with some pretty problematic views
https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/s/3biu9oKJOi
posted by kokaku at 9:50 AM on June 6
https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/s/3biu9oKJOi
posted by kokaku at 9:50 AM on June 6
Oh, I love the fuck out of my teen daughters, but their absolute need to have a flag and banner for every microdivision is frankly exhausting to overworked me, and my absolute inability to remember which flag stands for which identity outside of the regular pride flag is so frustrating to themâand so is my constant, "wait, who is [name] again?" after their friend changes their name for the sixth time in the last two years. I'm Gen X, nobody gave a shit what we thought, did or were, and "do what you want, just wash your hands" just isn't enough for them.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 10:00 AM on June 6 [17 favorites]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 10:00 AM on June 6 [17 favorites]
Not included on the site: the flag I've been seeing recently in Seattle is this one, which adds intersex pride to the Progress flag.
That particular variant of the progress flag has become the dominant one I see in Portland, at least in the SW part. The most novel one I've seen of late is the Gadsden/rainbow mashup.
posted by Dr. Twist at 10:03 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
That particular variant of the progress flag has become the dominant one I see in Portland, at least in the SW part. The most novel one I've seen of late is the Gadsden/rainbow mashup.
posted by Dr. Twist at 10:03 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
It's messy and cluttered because queerness is messy and cluttered. At least that's how I think about it.
Or as I recently read on BlueSky:
This is not a flag that cares if you find it pretty or sophisticated it cares that you treat those it represents as people and when you can do that you can have your pretty aesthetics and your neat rainbow but right now this flag says be gay do vexological crimes
posted by Jeanne at 10:04 AM on June 6 [13 favorites]
Or as I recently read on BlueSky:
This is not a flag that cares if you find it pretty or sophisticated it cares that you treat those it represents as people and when you can do that you can have your pretty aesthetics and your neat rainbow but right now this flag says be gay do vexological crimes
posted by Jeanne at 10:04 AM on June 6 [13 favorites]
I rock the Straight Ally Pride Flag...that has a place in the list.
posted by Chuffy at 10:04 AM on June 6
posted by Chuffy at 10:04 AM on June 6
If you say it enough times the word "flag" starts to sound like a reclaimed slur.
posted by rikschell at 10:08 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
posted by rikschell at 10:08 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
Oh, I love the fuck out of my teen daughters, but their absolute need to have a flag and banner for every microdivision is frankly exhausting to overworked me, and my absolute inability to remember which flag stands for which identity outside of the regular pride flag is so frustrating to themâand so is my constant, "wait, who is [name] again?" after their friend changes their name for the sixth time in the last two years. I'm Gen X, nobody gave a shit what we thought, did or were, and "do what you want, just wash your hands" just isn't enough for them.
old mx yells at rainbow?
posted by lalochezia at 10:09 AM on June 6 [4 favorites]
Sounds like someone needs to wave the white flag of surrender/ingender.
posted by rikschell at 10:15 AM on June 6
posted by rikschell at 10:15 AM on June 6
I don't understand why, in 90% of conversations I have with cishet people about LGBT+ issues, there is always, always a moment where they just have to tell me how complicated and confusing it is for them to keep up with the latest [acronym/flag/pronouns/political issue]! Like, how do we cope! All these young people and their genders and their flags! Gosh!
It's like they physically cannot continue the conversation without centering themselves and their inability to grasp the sheer concept of LGBT+ existence, rather than listening to what I actually have to say to them.
In the past, I've just smiled and nodded and made sympathetic noises. But I think I'm finally sick enough of it that I'm going to start asking them why the fuck they think I care.
Anyway. Neat site.
posted by fight or flight at 10:19 AM on June 6 [34 favorites]
It's like they physically cannot continue the conversation without centering themselves and their inability to grasp the sheer concept of LGBT+ existence, rather than listening to what I actually have to say to them.
In the past, I've just smiled and nodded and made sympathetic noises. But I think I'm finally sick enough of it that I'm going to start asking them why the fuck they think I care.
Anyway. Neat site.
posted by fight or flight at 10:19 AM on June 6 [34 favorites]
their absolute need to have a flag and banner for every microdivision
May I introduce you to the hanky code?
posted by mittens at 10:25 AM on June 6 [11 favorites]
May I introduce you to the hanky code?
posted by mittens at 10:25 AM on June 6 [11 favorites]
Did you know Gilbert Baker's original Pride flag had 8 stripes? (Pink and light blue were later dropped.) Also he assigned meanings to the stripes. Sex Life Healing Sunlight Nature Magic Serenity Spirit (tag urself).
Also I think this is at least half parody but here's a collection of monster fucker pride flags as seen in the new-to-me Queer Vexillology subreddit (21k members!).
posted by Nelson at 10:28 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
Also I think this is at least half parody but here's a collection of monster fucker pride flags as seen in the new-to-me Queer Vexillology subreddit (21k members!).
posted by Nelson at 10:28 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
It's always over something incredibly petty, too. A couple years back, a transphobe started an argument about using the singular "they" because it wasn't good grammar. As it turns out, they were also factually incorrect as well as hating trans people. Before that, we had several users who tried to make "cis" and "cisgender" into slurs because (in their own words) it meant that it no longer meant "normal".
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:30 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:30 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
I'm trying to follow the guideline of "If you don't know what it stands for, it's not you."
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 10:32 AM on June 6 [3 favorites]
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 10:32 AM on June 6 [3 favorites]
I don't understand why, in 90% of conversations I have with cishet people about LGBT+ issues, there is always, always a moment where they just have to tell me how complicated and confusing it is for them to keep up with the latest [acronym/flag/pronouns/political issue]! Like, how do we cope! All these young people and their genders and their flags! Gosh!
^This.^
Comments of "ugh I have to keep up something else and it's dumb we didn't need to do that" is not a great look and reminds me of my Trump supporting BIL who refuses to recognize that teens have so many more options than we did to express our gender and our sexuality.
posted by Kitteh at 10:37 AM on June 6 [6 favorites]
^This.^
Comments of "ugh I have to keep up something else and it's dumb we didn't need to do that" is not a great look and reminds me of my Trump supporting BIL who refuses to recognize that teens have so many more options than we did to express our gender and our sexuality.
posted by Kitteh at 10:37 AM on June 6 [6 favorites]
If your rant is basically "I don't understand kids these days" you're literally dying as you blabber. Whatever the kids are doing now, better get on board with it cause it's what adults are gonna be doing in the next few years. And since when, few exceptions to be noted, are the kids "wrong"?
Don't stand in the doorways, don't block up the halls
posted by rene_billingsworth at 10:45 AM on June 6 [9 favorites]
Don't stand in the doorways, don't block up the halls
posted by rene_billingsworth at 10:45 AM on June 6 [9 favorites]
This is cool! Although I wish that in addition to info about the corresponding identities (which can be found elsewhere), there was more info/context about the actual flags. Like, when / where / by whom was this flag devised? In what contexts might you see this flag in the wild (or was it just invented by someone obscure on tumblr with little-to-no usage, which is totally fine but useful to know)? etc
posted by dusty potato at 10:49 AM on June 6 [5 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 10:49 AM on June 6 [5 favorites]
I spent the first few flags thinking someone from Queens was trying to tell me about their agenda.
This is a fun site. Thanks.
posted by Captaintripps at 10:52 AM on June 6 [2 favorites]
This is a fun site. Thanks.
posted by Captaintripps at 10:52 AM on June 6 [2 favorites]
Queerness is so exciting because it's open to everybody! (Or everybody who is not intolerant, anyway.) The rainbow flag is such a great metaphor, because once you explode the binary aspects of sex and gender and relationships, you can see how diverse the spectrum is. No one thinks of the rainbow as just a continuum of red and violet. There's beautiful stuff all along the way, and it continues into places we can't even see. It's the opposite of status-quo patriarchy, inventing all kinds of ways of being and feeling that would otherwise go unrecognized.
posted by rikschell at 10:52 AM on June 6 [4 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 10:52 AM on June 6 [4 favorites]
I mean it is messy and confusing and constantly shifting. We're in a period of transition, exploration and greater understanding and therefore symbology will keep shifting. I figure my job as a cishet white straight dude is look around, go "ok" and keep on being as kind to people as I can be.
To see the completely shifting and overwhelming panoply of flags, markers, identifiers is as fascinating to me as cracking open an atlas as kid and learning about somewhere new.
I wonder how much of the "it's confusing" is tied to the always older generation mantra of "the world is confusing and changing too fast" (see the invention of the horse and buggy, telegraph, civil rights, etc) and how much of it is tied to the nominal ally fear of "If I misidentify someone then I'm the bad guy". I'm guessing that's really only a concern in progressive circles.
posted by drewbage1847 at 10:54 AM on June 6 [6 favorites]
To see the completely shifting and overwhelming panoply of flags, markers, identifiers is as fascinating to me as cracking open an atlas as kid and learning about somewhere new.
I wonder how much of the "it's confusing" is tied to the always older generation mantra of "the world is confusing and changing too fast" (see the invention of the horse and buggy, telegraph, civil rights, etc) and how much of it is tied to the nominal ally fear of "If I misidentify someone then I'm the bad guy". I'm guessing that's really only a concern in progressive circles.
posted by drewbage1847 at 10:54 AM on June 6 [6 favorites]
Thank you for this post! It's helpful and informative and I'm a queer person who didn't know a lot of these and am now in a better spot to be supportive of others.
For people who want to talk about how complicated and confusing all this gender stuff nowadays is, great news! If you click the link at the top of the page you will get a handy little reference guide that might address some of your many good-faith questions and concerns.
posted by an octopus IRL at 11:00 AM on June 6 [11 favorites]
For people who want to talk about how complicated and confusing all this gender stuff nowadays is, great news! If you click the link at the top of the page you will get a handy little reference guide that might address some of your many good-faith questions and concerns.
posted by an octopus IRL at 11:00 AM on June 6 [11 favorites]
I think that maybe we might consider going a bit beyond "I can't do this/you must do this" and go back to TFA and contemplate what it might signify when taken as a whole, and what it means to me is this:
It's less about recognizing the flag than raising the flag.
The last one is a transgender flag made by someone who apparently didn't know that there already was one. I've never seen it before, whereas I've seen the "main" TG flag all over the place for a while. Does that make the last one wrong or incorrect? I don't think so. I looked into the link to the Reddit post about the creator of the lipstick lesbian flag that kokaku posted above, which led me to this page about femme flags, and there are a fuckton of femme pride flags--when I have the time later, I want to dig into that site just to see how many there are in other categories--and I'm guessing that even that site may not be absolutely comprehensive. I mean, all it takes really is someone with Microsoft Paint, or even some crayons and a phone.
And that's OK. It's not about getting 100% on some notional quiz. It's about at least one person being honest about who and what they are. I personally don't see anything wrong with it turning into a thing where it's almost more like a personal sigil than "everybody knows what X means, or should." Run your freak flag up the flagpole and see who salutes, or at least asks what the deal is with that one thing.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:05 AM on June 6 [7 favorites]
It's less about recognizing the flag than raising the flag.
The last one is a transgender flag made by someone who apparently didn't know that there already was one. I've never seen it before, whereas I've seen the "main" TG flag all over the place for a while. Does that make the last one wrong or incorrect? I don't think so. I looked into the link to the Reddit post about the creator of the lipstick lesbian flag that kokaku posted above, which led me to this page about femme flags, and there are a fuckton of femme pride flags--when I have the time later, I want to dig into that site just to see how many there are in other categories--and I'm guessing that even that site may not be absolutely comprehensive. I mean, all it takes really is someone with Microsoft Paint, or even some crayons and a phone.
And that's OK. It's not about getting 100% on some notional quiz. It's about at least one person being honest about who and what they are. I personally don't see anything wrong with it turning into a thing where it's almost more like a personal sigil than "everybody knows what X means, or should." Run your freak flag up the flagpole and see who salutes, or at least asks what the deal is with that one thing.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:05 AM on June 6 [7 favorites]
The proliferation of terminology is great for personal identification purposes. It helps you figure yourself out, in a world that mostly doesn't have the words or headspace for you. And it's great to know that there are others out there.
But it's definitely not the best thing for recognition purposes. It increasingly drills down to a deeply geeky level of specificity and in-group status, which is kind of the opposite of popular recognition.
Honestly, I have a nonbinary pride flag decal on my car window partially because I know the average MAGA-hat bozo isn't going to recognize it, but at least a portion of other nonbinary people will. It's less of a pride flag and more of a... sort of tribal flag. Somebody might see that flag and take their own pride in recognizing it and maybe even identifying with it. Most people won't.
(To be fair, my car is also dirty so the decal probably just looks like four shades of dirt.)
I carried a nonbinary pride flag in an LGBTQ+ rights march in 2016 and there were a large number of people asking me what it was, and a few asked for "nonbinary" to be explained.
I was today years old when I heard of "nxnbinary." From the description, that's me. But I'm not going to be adopting the term or choosing one of its three available flags because I don't feel that level of specificity is particularly helpful to me at this stage. I don't feel like part of the nxnbinary community, if there is one, because I don't have a Tumblr account (only half-joking here).
posted by Foosnark at 11:25 AM on June 6 [19 favorites]
But it's definitely not the best thing for recognition purposes. It increasingly drills down to a deeply geeky level of specificity and in-group status, which is kind of the opposite of popular recognition.
Honestly, I have a nonbinary pride flag decal on my car window partially because I know the average MAGA-hat bozo isn't going to recognize it, but at least a portion of other nonbinary people will. It's less of a pride flag and more of a... sort of tribal flag. Somebody might see that flag and take their own pride in recognizing it and maybe even identifying with it. Most people won't.
(To be fair, my car is also dirty so the decal probably just looks like four shades of dirt.)
I carried a nonbinary pride flag in an LGBTQ+ rights march in 2016 and there were a large number of people asking me what it was, and a few asked for "nonbinary" to be explained.
I was today years old when I heard of "nxnbinary." From the description, that's me. But I'm not going to be adopting the term or choosing one of its three available flags because I don't feel that level of specificity is particularly helpful to me at this stage. I don't feel like part of the nxnbinary community, if there is one, because I don't have a Tumblr account (only half-joking here).
posted by Foosnark at 11:25 AM on June 6 [19 favorites]
Interesting article, but it has a major shortcoming in not explaining proper usage in their usage in Maritime flaghoist signalling or semaphore. How are large vessels traveling in busy ports supposed to express pride? Do they go above or below the house flag?
posted by LeRoienJaune at 11:27 AM on June 6 [9 favorites]
posted by LeRoienJaune at 11:27 AM on June 6 [9 favorites]
I'm sort of in the closet ace, or maybe aro., or maybe a demi variant, evs. I had no idea, I might be considered (please excuse my archaic language) on the queer spectrum, or that there might be other folks like me. I just know that it's not something that's safe to talk about in many male circles. Thanks for the post Faintdreams.
posted by evilDoug at 11:28 AM on June 6 [7 favorites]
posted by evilDoug at 11:28 AM on June 6 [7 favorites]
Do they go above or below the house flag?
Depends, are they a top or a bottom? (Not sure what to do about switches, maybe some kind of spinning thing.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:33 AM on June 6 [6 favorites]
Depends, are they a top or a bottom? (Not sure what to do about switches, maybe some kind of spinning thing.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:33 AM on June 6 [6 favorites]
THERE ARE A LOT! This is eye opening for me.
Looking all the way down at the bottom, I am wondering - is the person who maintains this someone I know? (Not an uncommon name, necessarily, but now I want to know for sure! If it IS the person I know, she and her partner gave us one of their cats, and we like that cat)
posted by caution live frogs at 11:35 AM on June 6 [5 favorites]
Looking all the way down at the bottom, I am wondering - is the person who maintains this someone I know? (Not an uncommon name, necessarily, but now I want to know for sure! If it IS the person I know, she and her partner gave us one of their cats, and we like that cat)
posted by caution live frogs at 11:35 AM on June 6 [5 favorites]
Thank you for this post and happy pride month! There were lots I didnât know, including the UK one, and sad that the (lipstick) lesbian flag creator was so awful, thanks for sharing that kokaku.
posted by ellieBOA at 11:56 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
posted by ellieBOA at 11:56 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
I was talking with my housemate this morning and he has a nonbinary child. We were chatting about how they were doing & his offspring's journey to discovering their identity. I was a teen in the '90s and while we knew about gay people and maybe bisexual, transgender people were pretty much unknown or a vague concept (and I really didn't become acquainted with any trans/nonbinary people until college and even then, those people were just figuring it out).
I know people who have transitioned later in life because until recently, they didn't know that was a possibility. They didn't have the language for it.
I think it's awesome that younger people* have the tools, knowledge and resources to explore the essential parts of their identities. I think I still would've been much of who I am now with these things, but my understanding of my sexual identity is a process even for me (I'm in my 40s).
Does every single thing need to have a separate identifier? Maybe, maybe not. But if it's important for someone to say "this specific word is how I identity,"I don't see any issue with that. Sometimes we want a label for a core part of ourselves because that helps us work out how we want to express it, even if that's just to ourselves.
These are cool.
*Clearly not all younger people. Housemate and I also talked about how while we live in an extremely liberal area, it's dangerous out there even here & not everyone has family understanding or support)
posted by edencosmic at 12:06 PM on June 6 [8 favorites]
I know people who have transitioned later in life because until recently, they didn't know that was a possibility. They didn't have the language for it.
I think it's awesome that younger people* have the tools, knowledge and resources to explore the essential parts of their identities. I think I still would've been much of who I am now with these things, but my understanding of my sexual identity is a process even for me (I'm in my 40s).
Does every single thing need to have a separate identifier? Maybe, maybe not. But if it's important for someone to say "this specific word is how I identity,"I don't see any issue with that. Sometimes we want a label for a core part of ourselves because that helps us work out how we want to express it, even if that's just to ourselves.
These are cool.
*Clearly not all younger people. Housemate and I also talked about how while we live in an extremely liberal area, it's dangerous out there even here & not everyone has family understanding or support)
posted by edencosmic at 12:06 PM on June 6 [8 favorites]
Mod note: No deletions made so far. Thank you for pushing back about the "do what you want, just wash your hands" comment above. Let's just make sure the pushback doesn't turn into a derail in and of itself .
posted by loup (staff) at 12:08 PM on June 6 [1 favorite]
posted by loup (staff) at 12:08 PM on June 6 [1 favorite]
I was talking with my housemate this morning and he has a nonbinary child. We were chatting about how they were doing & his offspring's journey to discovering their identity.
I was in a trans support group in the 2010s and one of the members realized their own trans identity after their kid starting exploring theirs. It was kind of awesome and awe-inspiring.
posted by carrioncomfort at 12:12 PM on June 6 [8 favorites]
I was in a trans support group in the 2010s and one of the members realized their own trans identity after their kid starting exploring theirs. It was kind of awesome and awe-inspiring.
posted by carrioncomfort at 12:12 PM on June 6 [8 favorites]
I think I still would've been much of who I am now with these things, but my understanding of my sexual identity is a process even for me (I'm in my 40s).
Preach, edencosmic, preach!
I'm 47 years old, realizing I never came out as bisexual because there were so many issues with the label in my ostensibly liberal peer group throughout my life. I feel much more comfortable with part of my sexuality now, sure, but I still have a long way to go to undoing the internalized shame.
posted by Kitteh at 12:14 PM on June 6 [5 favorites]
Preach, edencosmic, preach!
I'm 47 years old, realizing I never came out as bisexual because there were so many issues with the label in my ostensibly liberal peer group throughout my life. I feel much more comfortable with part of my sexuality now, sure, but I still have a long way to go to undoing the internalized shame.
posted by Kitteh at 12:14 PM on June 6 [5 favorites]
Mod note: One comment removed at poster's request, fyi.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:00 PM on June 6
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:00 PM on June 6
But I do want to note the omission of Emily Gwenâs orange-pink lesbian flag, which is overwhelmingly the most common one I see used these days, especially in pride merch.
I had the same thought. I also thought it was strange that the lipstick lesbian flag description doesn't use the term "femme" because that's who I usually see using that flag.
The description for the nonbinary flag is also odd. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm nonbinary and don't use genderqueer to refer to myself, and I wouldn't consider them exactly interchangeable. The description cites Wikipedia but it seems to be an older definition. It's different now.
This is still a great resource but I hope people will use it as a starting point to learn more about how these terms and flags are being used presently.
posted by birthday cake at 1:08 PM on June 6 [4 favorites]
I had the same thought. I also thought it was strange that the lipstick lesbian flag description doesn't use the term "femme" because that's who I usually see using that flag.
The description for the nonbinary flag is also odd. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm nonbinary and don't use genderqueer to refer to myself, and I wouldn't consider them exactly interchangeable. The description cites Wikipedia but it seems to be an older definition. It's different now.
This is still a great resource but I hope people will use it as a starting point to learn more about how these terms and flags are being used presently.
posted by birthday cake at 1:08 PM on June 6 [4 favorites]
I have a sad little plaited bracelet I made myself in the nonbinary colours, yellow, white, black and purple. (Had to learn how to plait with four strands, slightly different from three, that was interesting ).
I feel sort of silly wearing it, but I do because I want to push back against the inevitable invisibility of being nonbinary. Even though almost no one I meet will recognise my bracelet for what it is, or know what nonbinary means.
I will always be misgendered by strangers, and am often misgendered by people who know I'm nonbinary because, I'm not sure why, actually.
I'm 52. I've always known that I'm not my assigned gender, but only decided that "nonbinary" is the term that fits about 2 years ago.
Not having access to a word that describes me when I was going through puberty and adolescence was not great. Think about that, if you're feeling a bit aggrieved at the confusing number of these terms.
Think back to your puberty, and imagine that the word for your gender, the *idea* of your gender, didn't exist. Even though you could sense what you are, and what you aren't.
I'd like to change my pronouns to they/them, but honestly, I can't bear to athe awkward fumbling annoyed apologies I'd have to deal with.
posted by Zumbador at 1:18 PM on June 6 [17 favorites]
I feel sort of silly wearing it, but I do because I want to push back against the inevitable invisibility of being nonbinary. Even though almost no one I meet will recognise my bracelet for what it is, or know what nonbinary means.
I will always be misgendered by strangers, and am often misgendered by people who know I'm nonbinary because, I'm not sure why, actually.
I'm 52. I've always known that I'm not my assigned gender, but only decided that "nonbinary" is the term that fits about 2 years ago.
Not having access to a word that describes me when I was going through puberty and adolescence was not great. Think about that, if you're feeling a bit aggrieved at the confusing number of these terms.
Think back to your puberty, and imagine that the word for your gender, the *idea* of your gender, didn't exist. Even though you could sense what you are, and what you aren't.
I'd like to change my pronouns to they/them, but honestly, I can't bear to athe awkward fumbling annoyed apologies I'd have to deal with.
posted by Zumbador at 1:18 PM on June 6 [17 favorites]
As a fellow parent with a full plate, I am sympathetic to outgrown_hobnail, above: they love their kid, and they are trying to keep up. At no point did they say that they sigh, and reach for an axe handle, or sneer and then just go back to calling that kid Sarah/Dave/Deadname. They're observing -- as many others in this thread do -- that there's a lot here to take in.
So my daughter sings with her high school choir. One day I saw a familiar face on the risers, but a different name in the program. I thought to myself, "Hot damn, another kid from that family can sing?! I love me some family harmony!" And at the next performance, there was a third name with that surname; I was wary. By January, they were back to their original name, having done some typical teen-age experimentation. I was mildly disappointed that I never got the same-family micro-choir I wanted, but...that's it.
We never gave that kid (or my daughter) shit about it. I am happy to call every person whatever they want, as soon as I know what to say -- that's allyship as I understand it. The kids are always welcome in my car if they need a ride home after rehearsal, and I love listening to their performances. Just because they're making different choices than I did, who am I to make their life harder?
posted by wenestvedt at 1:39 PM on June 6 [11 favorites]
So my daughter sings with her high school choir. One day I saw a familiar face on the risers, but a different name in the program. I thought to myself, "Hot damn, another kid from that family can sing?! I love me some family harmony!" And at the next performance, there was a third name with that surname; I was wary. By January, they were back to their original name, having done some typical teen-age experimentation. I was mildly disappointed that I never got the same-family micro-choir I wanted, but...that's it.
We never gave that kid (or my daughter) shit about it. I am happy to call every person whatever they want, as soon as I know what to say -- that's allyship as I understand it. The kids are always welcome in my car if they need a ride home after rehearsal, and I love listening to their performances. Just because they're making different choices than I did, who am I to make their life harder?
posted by wenestvedt at 1:39 PM on June 6 [11 favorites]
I'm Gen X, nobody gave a shit what we thought, did or were, and "do what you want, just wash your hands" just isn't enough for them.
Well, I'm also Gen X, and that "do what you want, just wash your hands" code is what's leading me to say "oh, there's some new flags? Well, cool then." I mean, we're talking about a symbol of someone's personal identity, and each of our own understandings of ourselves can evolve and grow and change - and so why not celebrate those changes when they happen?
The only thing that gives me aesthetic pause is the "ingender" flag being all white - I get the symbolism and that's cool, I just aesthetically feel it's a bit...dull? But hey, not my choice.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:42 PM on June 6 [3 favorites]
Well, I'm also Gen X, and that "do what you want, just wash your hands" code is what's leading me to say "oh, there's some new flags? Well, cool then." I mean, we're talking about a symbol of someone's personal identity, and each of our own understandings of ourselves can evolve and grow and change - and so why not celebrate those changes when they happen?
The only thing that gives me aesthetic pause is the "ingender" flag being all white - I get the symbolism and that's cool, I just aesthetically feel it's a bit...dull? But hey, not my choice.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:42 PM on June 6 [3 favorites]
I'd like to change my pronouns to they/them, but honestly, I can't bear to the awkward fumbling annoyed apologies I'd have to deal with.
Yeah. If I'm ever in a setting where people are giving their preferred pronouns, I'll happily say "they/them" -- not that this has happened yet anywhere offline. My few attempts to more openly express nonbinariness through clothing/style choices were awkward, and I really don't want to have gender-related discussions with my coworkers, or random cashiers or whatever.
Also I don't feel super attached to any gender at all anyway so it doesn't personally feel as uncomfortable/harmful to be misgendered as it does for many people. So I just let it go.
posted by Foosnark at 1:52 PM on June 6 [4 favorites]
Yeah. If I'm ever in a setting where people are giving their preferred pronouns, I'll happily say "they/them" -- not that this has happened yet anywhere offline. My few attempts to more openly express nonbinariness through clothing/style choices were awkward, and I really don't want to have gender-related discussions with my coworkers, or random cashiers or whatever.
Also I don't feel super attached to any gender at all anyway so it doesn't personally feel as uncomfortable/harmful to be misgendered as it does for many people. So I just let it go.
posted by Foosnark at 1:52 PM on June 6 [4 favorites]
Last June RPG.net (notable for explicitly banning Trump supporters in their rules) added flags to their emoji support, so people can have them in their signatures, and as part of their user info (and they changed the logo to incorporate Pride). It's received near unanimous approval, from what I've seen. I like it because I can mouseover a flag, and see what it means, because otherwise, I can't keep them straight.
posted by Spike Glee at 1:53 PM on June 6 [1 favorite]
posted by Spike Glee at 1:53 PM on June 6 [1 favorite]
Well, there are a lot of flags and pronouns, thatâs true. ButâŚItâs not like you have to memorize them all (you could use the handy linked guide to decipher what youâre seeing). Outside of those used by your friends, family, loved ones, coworkers, etc, you donât need to be 100% on them. Itâs very unlikely that a raucous gang of youths are going to leap out of an alley and give you a quiz, after all.
There is a miniatures painter who likes to paint WarHammer 40K Space Marines in Pride colors. The painter posts pictures in line and then genially fights with haters (and gets praise). In one case, on twitter, someone complained about there being too many Pride flags, and the painter was like âdude, your profile image is one of your 50
American state flags.â
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:00 PM on June 6 [4 favorites]
There is a miniatures painter who likes to paint WarHammer 40K Space Marines in Pride colors. The painter posts pictures in line and then genially fights with haters (and gets praise). In one case, on twitter, someone complained about there being too many Pride flags, and the painter was like âdude, your profile image is one of your 50
American state flags.â
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:00 PM on June 6 [4 favorites]
Those wargaming miniatures are amaaaaaazing!
posted by wenestvedt at 2:25 PM on June 6 [1 favorite]
posted by wenestvedt at 2:25 PM on June 6 [1 favorite]
this seems like a good chance to plug flagsforgood, where you can buy progressive flags from a site that doesn't ALSO sell, say, confederate battle flags. also, they're huge nerds about it, it's great.
posted by Clowder of bats at 2:30 PM on June 6 [6 favorites]
posted by Clowder of bats at 2:30 PM on June 6 [6 favorites]
I say we replace flags of any sort with pageant banners. How chic would that be?
posted by Czjewel at 2:38 PM on June 6 [1 favorite]
posted by Czjewel at 2:38 PM on June 6 [1 favorite]
I wonder how much of the "it's confusing" is tied to the always older generation mantra of "the world is confusing and changing too fast"
Nope. It's about lack of spare time. Also: the flags don't seem to obey any real consistent internal color logic, broadly speaking, so even if I know Flag 1, and Flag 2 shares a couple of colors with it, that doesn't necessarily mean they're closely related.
If your rant is basically "I don't understand kids these days" you're literally dying as you blabber.
I *understand* the whole concept just fine. I support my kids in deciding which if any consenting quasi-adults they want to find attractive or get with. What I'm grousing about is getting eyerolls when I don't know each and every one of these flags, and the name it goes with, and in many cases what that means.
It's like they physically cannot continue the conversation without centering themselves and their inability to grasp the sheer concept of LGBT+ existence
Oh, no: I grasp the whole concept just fine. I (totally hetero) worked in a gay bar when I was 17 in 1985. Have fun! Wash your hands.
Everyone have a nice day.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 2:47 PM on June 6 [6 favorites]
Nope. It's about lack of spare time. Also: the flags don't seem to obey any real consistent internal color logic, broadly speaking, so even if I know Flag 1, and Flag 2 shares a couple of colors with it, that doesn't necessarily mean they're closely related.
If your rant is basically "I don't understand kids these days" you're literally dying as you blabber.
I *understand* the whole concept just fine. I support my kids in deciding which if any consenting quasi-adults they want to find attractive or get with. What I'm grousing about is getting eyerolls when I don't know each and every one of these flags, and the name it goes with, and in many cases what that means.
It's like they physically cannot continue the conversation without centering themselves and their inability to grasp the sheer concept of LGBT+ existence
Oh, no: I grasp the whole concept just fine. I (totally hetero) worked in a gay bar when I was 17 in 1985. Have fun! Wash your hands.
Everyone have a nice day.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 2:47 PM on June 6 [6 favorites]
Having the color selection tool elevates this to the best version I've seen to sort Pride flags!
posted by chrisglass at 3:12 PM on June 6 [2 favorites]
posted by chrisglass at 3:12 PM on June 6 [2 favorites]
I just wish more of the flags had notes about their designers and their design choices in addition to summaries of the identities indicated.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:19 PM on June 6 [1 favorite]
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:19 PM on June 6 [1 favorite]
I maintain bi flag is best flag. Not bi people, but I dig the color scheme, however convenient it might be to me personally.
I think my number two pick would be âlipstick lesbian,â but Iâm definitely not getting into that clubhouse.
posted by gelfin at 3:24 PM on June 6 [1 favorite]
I think my number two pick would be âlipstick lesbian,â but Iâm definitely not getting into that clubhouse.
posted by gelfin at 3:24 PM on June 6 [1 favorite]
Mod note: One comment removed. In threads about sensitive issues, please try to avoid being too glib or snarky, as people can intrepet it as offensive.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:31 PM on June 6
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:31 PM on June 6
I say we replace flags of any sort with pageant banners
Battle standards!
posted by mittens at 3:41 PM on June 6 [2 favorites]
Battle standards!
posted by mittens at 3:41 PM on June 6 [2 favorites]
I also have teens that grill me about being out of touch. Itâs annoying mainly because Iâd like to say âyoung people always think they invented sexâ but in this case, they kind of did, and itâs hard to face oneâs oncoming obsolescence. Maybe we can have a lapel pin or insignia that marks âout of touch, obsolescent ally.â Iâll ask my kid to design it.
posted by q*ben at 4:04 PM on June 6 [1 favorite]
posted by q*ben at 4:04 PM on June 6 [1 favorite]
I also have teens that grill me about being out of touch. Itâs annoying mainly because Iâd like to say âyoung people always think they invented sexâ but in this case, they kind of did,
But they didnât; they just have more words and media reach. A little historical study shows that queer people have always been a bit perplexed by their options and made their own way and their own peace. It is the curse of the young that it will take them 20-30 years to realize this, and the curse of the elders that, to quote a song âwe lift our glass to the awful truth, that you canât reveal to the ears of youth, except to say it isnât worth a dime.â
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:49 PM on June 6 [3 favorites]
But they didnât; they just have more words and media reach. A little historical study shows that queer people have always been a bit perplexed by their options and made their own way and their own peace. It is the curse of the young that it will take them 20-30 years to realize this, and the curse of the elders that, to quote a song âwe lift our glass to the awful truth, that you canât reveal to the ears of youth, except to say it isnât worth a dime.â
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:49 PM on June 6 [3 favorites]
I've identified as aceflux now for about 12 years, and even I find all of the different flags exhausting. But like others have said, it's probably an age thing.
posted by mmb5 at 5:56 PM on June 6 [1 favorite]
posted by mmb5 at 5:56 PM on June 6 [1 favorite]
(For anyone wondering who birthday cake was responding to above, I asked the mods to delete my comment so I could correct pronouns and repost. Here it is:)
Great array of flags, including a bunch Iâm not familiar with but will have to read up on! But I do want to note the omission of Emily Gwenâs orange-pink lesbian flag, which is overwhelmingly the most common one I see used these days, especially in pride merch. (For which theyâve freely given permission, but itâs frustrating to see how many big corps use the orange-pink colors while the artist themself has been struggling financially for years.)
I was also thrown by the wildly outdated binarist definition of bisexuality, which hasnât been used within the community for many years and was under serious contention for years before that. Bi = attraction to same and other genders, though not necessarily all genders or to the same extent; pan = attraction regardless of gender. Lots of people identify with both, or just pick their favorite flag colors and call it a day.
posted by bettafish at 5:59 PM on June 6 [2 favorites]
Great array of flags, including a bunch Iâm not familiar with but will have to read up on! But I do want to note the omission of Emily Gwenâs orange-pink lesbian flag, which is overwhelmingly the most common one I see used these days, especially in pride merch. (For which theyâve freely given permission, but itâs frustrating to see how many big corps use the orange-pink colors while the artist themself has been struggling financially for years.)
I was also thrown by the wildly outdated binarist definition of bisexuality, which hasnât been used within the community for many years and was under serious contention for years before that. Bi = attraction to same and other genders, though not necessarily all genders or to the same extent; pan = attraction regardless of gender. Lots of people identify with both, or just pick their favorite flag colors and call it a day.
posted by bettafish at 5:59 PM on June 6 [2 favorites]
So many very, very obscure flags on this site, but they are missing some critical and common ones, most notably to me the common orange to pink Lesbian Pride Flag and the older-by-decades-than-most-of-these-and-still-in-use Leather Pride Flag (as well as other bdsm flags).
posted by quiet wanderer at 6:32 PM on June 6 [5 favorites]
posted by quiet wanderer at 6:32 PM on June 6 [5 favorites]
"But like others have said, it's probably an age thing."
It's not an age thing; it's crummy design and a lack of political coordination. The original Pride Flag was explicitly designed to include the entire spectrum of sexual and gender orientations. It's been co-opted and modified to represent specific gender orientations and a whole bunch of other stuff. The whole reason this post exists is because people *like* waving a banner for their specific niche, and not latching on to an encompassing symbol. Which is interesting, weird, and maybe a little sad. Same old same old.
posted by metametamind at 7:56 PM on June 6 [4 favorites]
It's not an age thing; it's crummy design and a lack of political coordination. The original Pride Flag was explicitly designed to include the entire spectrum of sexual and gender orientations. It's been co-opted and modified to represent specific gender orientations and a whole bunch of other stuff. The whole reason this post exists is because people *like* waving a banner for their specific niche, and not latching on to an encompassing symbol. Which is interesting, weird, and maybe a little sad. Same old same old.
posted by metametamind at 7:56 PM on June 6 [4 favorites]
The ongoing conversation about whether or not cis people are allowed to express their frustration and confusion about the large number of gender identities and flags is upsetting to me.
That's for me to deal with in regulating my emotions, I'm not asking for comments to be deleted or people not to comment in that way. Especially since it's not just cis people who have been talking about this.
I'm just telling you how I feel.
It feels bad that loup commented to say "x opinion was expressed, not great, but please don't derail the thread with pushback against that comment"
And then people double down on their opinions, but if I respond, I'm derailing?
To make my objection clearer:
(General "you", not aimed at a particular person)
The problem isn't expressing your thoughts on this. The problem is centering yourself as a cis person in a thread that's supposed to be about trans /queer voices.
It's a bit like what happens when someone learns that you're not drinking alcohol. Instead of responding with curiosity about why this is, they respond with "well, I will never give up my glass of wine every evening, so there!"
The problem isn't whether or not they should drink, the problem is that they're centering themselves in a defensive and slightly fighty way.
posted by Zumbador at 8:49 PM on June 6 [9 favorites]
That's for me to deal with in regulating my emotions, I'm not asking for comments to be deleted or people not to comment in that way. Especially since it's not just cis people who have been talking about this.
I'm just telling you how I feel.
It feels bad that loup commented to say "x opinion was expressed, not great, but please don't derail the thread with pushback against that comment"
And then people double down on their opinions, but if I respond, I'm derailing?
To make my objection clearer:
(General "you", not aimed at a particular person)
The problem isn't expressing your thoughts on this. The problem is centering yourself as a cis person in a thread that's supposed to be about trans /queer voices.
It's a bit like what happens when someone learns that you're not drinking alcohol. Instead of responding with curiosity about why this is, they respond with "well, I will never give up my glass of wine every evening, so there!"
The problem isn't whether or not they should drink, the problem is that they're centering themselves in a defensive and slightly fighty way.
posted by Zumbador at 8:49 PM on June 6 [9 favorites]
The whole reason this post exists is because people *like* waving a banner for their specific niche, and not latching on to an encompassing symbol. Which is interesting, weird, and maybe a little sad. Same old same old.
A hopefully-cheering counterpoint - I've often seen the smaller-group flags being flown along with the larger Pride flag, It's kind of like when people will fly the U.S. Flag along with the flag for their own state.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:23 AM on June 7 [6 favorites]
A hopefully-cheering counterpoint - I've often seen the smaller-group flags being flown along with the larger Pride flag, It's kind of like when people will fly the U.S. Flag along with the flag for their own state.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:23 AM on June 7 [6 favorites]
The whole reason this post exists is because people *like* waving a banner for their specific niche, and not latching on to an encompassing symbol. Which is interesting, weird, and maybe a little sad.
Why is it sad?
posted by birthday cake at 6:09 AM on June 7 [1 favorite]
Why is it sad?
posted by birthday cake at 6:09 AM on June 7 [1 favorite]
The ongoing conversation about whether or not cis people are allowed to express their frustration and confusion about the large number of gender identities and flags is upsetting to me.
Ok, so am I -- a person who is queer in multiple ways, with multiple partners who are queer in multiple ways -- allowed by you to express MY strong dislike of the constantly changing multitude of flags and people's seeming desire to sort themselves into ever smaller niches?
I feel it defeats the point of the Pride flag acting as a uniting symbol.
posted by quiet wanderer at 9:33 AM on June 7
Ok, so am I -- a person who is queer in multiple ways, with multiple partners who are queer in multiple ways -- allowed by you to express MY strong dislike of the constantly changing multitude of flags and people's seeming desire to sort themselves into ever smaller niches?
I feel it defeats the point of the Pride flag acting as a uniting symbol.
posted by quiet wanderer at 9:33 AM on June 7
Of course you are.
It just seemed like you were assuming that the people commenting were straight and cis. But maybe you know that they are from other threads?
posted by quiet wanderer at 9:40 AM on June 7
It just seemed like you were assuming that the people commenting were straight and cis. But maybe you know that they are from other threads?
posted by quiet wanderer at 9:40 AM on June 7
No, I don't know that, and I regret my comment now because I subsequently realise it would come off like that.
I meant to say something like "obviously I don't get to decide who says what here, but if you are cis, and you talk about this, you're likely to say something hurtful, so be mindful of that."
I don't know how to say "this upsets me" without seeming to imply "this is not allowed" but it seems like that should be possible.
posted by Zumbador at 9:54 AM on June 7 [2 favorites]
I meant to say something like "obviously I don't get to decide who says what here, but if you are cis, and you talk about this, you're likely to say something hurtful, so be mindful of that."
I don't know how to say "this upsets me" without seeming to imply "this is not allowed" but it seems like that should be possible.
posted by Zumbador at 9:54 AM on June 7 [2 favorites]
but if you are cis, and you talk about this, you're likely to say something hurtful
This seems to be warning a large group of people that they should not be participating in this conversation because of something they have no control over.
posted by achrise at 10:52 AM on June 7 [1 favorite]
This seems to be warning a large group of people that they should not be participating in this conversation because of something they have no control over.
posted by achrise at 10:52 AM on June 7 [1 favorite]
"if you are cis, and you talk about this, you're likely to say something hurtful" != "if you are cis, you should not be participating in this conversation." just tread with care. if you find yourself responding from defensiveness, maybe take a step back before talking more. (note that for the above, "cis" can be substituted with any other privileged group, as a general rule.)
trying to narrow down the definitions of (or "reify" if you prefer) either bisexuality or pansexuality, much less make them mutually exclusive, is so pointless it makes me want to scream. even if you could agree on the supposedly common definitions of "bi means 2, pan means all" you'll still see actual queer people out living their lives who will say "i'm attracted to men and women, i'm pansexual!" or "i'm attracted to people regardless of their gender, i'm bisexual!" why would you try to prove them wrong? nothing drives me more crazy than the proliferation of "use this term, not that" when talking about queer self-concept. just let people call themselves what they want, ffs. oh, and wash your hands.
posted by a flock of goslings at 11:33 AM on June 7 [4 favorites]
I was also thrown by the wildly outdated binarist definition of bisexuality, which hasnât been used within the community for many years and was under serious contention for years before that. Bi = attraction to same and other genders, though not necessarily all genders or to the same extent; pan = attraction regardless of gender. Lots of people identify with both, or just pick their favorite flag colors and call it a day.exactly this. although the linked wikipedia article does go deep on pan vs. bi discourse with more nuance, i hate to see the old "pan is more inclusive" BS get trotted out with no rebuttal. it's always seemed like a false flag (ha!) intended to undermine queer solidarity at the expense of trans people.
trying to narrow down the definitions of (or "reify" if you prefer) either bisexuality or pansexuality, much less make them mutually exclusive, is so pointless it makes me want to scream. even if you could agree on the supposedly common definitions of "bi means 2, pan means all" you'll still see actual queer people out living their lives who will say "i'm attracted to men and women, i'm pansexual!" or "i'm attracted to people regardless of their gender, i'm bisexual!" why would you try to prove them wrong? nothing drives me more crazy than the proliferation of "use this term, not that" when talking about queer self-concept. just let people call themselves what they want, ffs. oh, and wash your hands.
posted by a flock of goslings at 11:33 AM on June 7 [4 favorites]
Not included on the site: the flag I've been seeing recently in Seattle is this one, which adds intersex pride to the Progress flag.
I'm cis and straight, which admittedly means I don't have a great perspective on this, but ever since the first "progress" bands were added I feel like the standard Pride flag has been moving away from the stated intent of designer Gilbert Baker, who pushed back hard against interpretations which tried to attach colors to groups (a specific color for lesbians, or trans folk, or queer POC, or other specific identities) instead of associating the colors with non-identity-driven concepts (from red to purple, they are "life", "healing", "sunlight", "nature", "serenity", and "spirit"; the 8-color flag had "sex" and "magic" too).
Baker's notion (and I really wish I could find a direct quote somewhere) was that symbolizing individual identities within the flag as a whole was ultimately something which separated and excluded, because there will always be identities you miss or lump together in ways which oversimplify. And certainly from the traditional Progress flag on to the new version, it feels kind of like there's a neverending race to try to get around the exact problem Gilbert was trying to avoid by just cramming more stripes and colors on there to represent our more nuanced understanding of diversity, when the original design didn't really have any sort of "one identity = one band" philosophy behind it in the first place.
The individual flags for specific queer identities don't bug me at all, because those are designed as symbols for particular identities. But taking the original Pride flag, which really was meant as a unifying and all-encompassing symbol, and trying to jam symbolism for every individual identity on there feels kind of like it misses the point.
posted by jackbishop at 12:03 PM on June 7 [6 favorites]
I'm cis and straight, which admittedly means I don't have a great perspective on this, but ever since the first "progress" bands were added I feel like the standard Pride flag has been moving away from the stated intent of designer Gilbert Baker, who pushed back hard against interpretations which tried to attach colors to groups (a specific color for lesbians, or trans folk, or queer POC, or other specific identities) instead of associating the colors with non-identity-driven concepts (from red to purple, they are "life", "healing", "sunlight", "nature", "serenity", and "spirit"; the 8-color flag had "sex" and "magic" too).
Baker's notion (and I really wish I could find a direct quote somewhere) was that symbolizing individual identities within the flag as a whole was ultimately something which separated and excluded, because there will always be identities you miss or lump together in ways which oversimplify. And certainly from the traditional Progress flag on to the new version, it feels kind of like there's a neverending race to try to get around the exact problem Gilbert was trying to avoid by just cramming more stripes and colors on there to represent our more nuanced understanding of diversity, when the original design didn't really have any sort of "one identity = one band" philosophy behind it in the first place.
The individual flags for specific queer identities don't bug me at all, because those are designed as symbols for particular identities. But taking the original Pride flag, which really was meant as a unifying and all-encompassing symbol, and trying to jam symbolism for every individual identity on there feels kind of like it misses the point.
posted by jackbishop at 12:03 PM on June 7 [6 favorites]
I like the Progress flag. Itâs a bit busy, but entirely identifiable, which pits it ahead of most US state flags and almost every city flag in the world.
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:28 PM on June 7 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:28 PM on June 7 [1 favorite]
jackbishop, do you feel that the standard pride flag's meaning is being narrowed by the existence of the newer pride flags?
Sort of like some people take note when one says "LGB" vs "LGBTQ+", that the missing letters are significant?
posted by Zumbador at 12:38 PM on June 7
Sort of like some people take note when one says "LGB" vs "LGBTQ+", that the missing letters are significant?
posted by Zumbador at 12:38 PM on June 7
Depends what you mean by "newer pride flags". I feel like the Progress bars are a solution to a problem that is to some extent of their own creation. As for the identity-specific ones, as I said, those are, to my mind, completely different in symbolism and purpose.
Like, recognition of individual identities and their unique struggles is important. Practicing radical inclusivity is important. Trying to do both of those things at the same time, though, can get you into trouble, because every identity you don't recognize (and there are so many identities!) are fundamentally excluded. This isn't to say you can't do both things, but trying to do them with a single symbol (which I think the Progress flag does) is basically going to be a symbol at war with itself. A Rainbow Flag is a symbol of universal acceptance of an unspecified scope of sexual and gender identities. An Asexual Pride Flag (for instance) is a symbol representing asexual people in particular and their specific struggles. There's no reason one can't fly both of them, to indicate both things.
As for "LGB" vs. the many lengthenings of it, it seems like the latter's fallen into the same trap of Whack-A-Mole inclusivity that the Progress flag did, except there was no good reason why the Pride Flag had to go that way, while the blanket term "LGB" had that flawed identity-listing problem from the start and there's never been a really good alternative. Not everyone likes "queer", but some less baggage-laden term with the same nonspecificity would be nice to have as a broadly affirming one. "LGBTQ+" doesn't feel like it does that to me; yeah, you have that "+" on the end, but there's a real sense that unlisted identities are too marginal to mention, put into a sort of "et cetera" or "miscellaneous" category. But it's still the best we have, I guess.
Despite all this theorizing, I still do fly a Progress pride flag, because it's Not My Call and those who in the marginalized groups in question (even the marginalized groups who do not get their own bar) generally seem to be on board with the Progress flag, so my unease at the transition from a universalized symbol to a specified one is really my own personal hangup.
posted by jackbishop at 2:12 PM on June 7 [2 favorites]
Like, recognition of individual identities and their unique struggles is important. Practicing radical inclusivity is important. Trying to do both of those things at the same time, though, can get you into trouble, because every identity you don't recognize (and there are so many identities!) are fundamentally excluded. This isn't to say you can't do both things, but trying to do them with a single symbol (which I think the Progress flag does) is basically going to be a symbol at war with itself. A Rainbow Flag is a symbol of universal acceptance of an unspecified scope of sexual and gender identities. An Asexual Pride Flag (for instance) is a symbol representing asexual people in particular and their specific struggles. There's no reason one can't fly both of them, to indicate both things.
As for "LGB" vs. the many lengthenings of it, it seems like the latter's fallen into the same trap of Whack-A-Mole inclusivity that the Progress flag did, except there was no good reason why the Pride Flag had to go that way, while the blanket term "LGB" had that flawed identity-listing problem from the start and there's never been a really good alternative. Not everyone likes "queer", but some less baggage-laden term with the same nonspecificity would be nice to have as a broadly affirming one. "LGBTQ+" doesn't feel like it does that to me; yeah, you have that "+" on the end, but there's a real sense that unlisted identities are too marginal to mention, put into a sort of "et cetera" or "miscellaneous" category. But it's still the best we have, I guess.
Despite all this theorizing, I still do fly a Progress pride flag, because it's Not My Call and those who in the marginalized groups in question (even the marginalized groups who do not get their own bar) generally seem to be on board with the Progress flag, so my unease at the transition from a universalized symbol to a specified one is really my own personal hangup.
posted by jackbishop at 2:12 PM on June 7 [2 favorites]
I used to look at the Progress Pride flag and go "I guess, but doesn't the regular rainbow Pride flag cover everybody?" And then I saw this picture of a couple of transphobes who'd stolen a Progress Pride flag and cut out the triangle and the stripes representing intersex people, trans people, and black and brown queer people. So clearly there's people who don't think the rainbow covers everybody, and if flying a Progress Pride flag makes it clear where I stand? Well heck, I know what I'm doing.
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:31 PM on June 7 [8 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:31 PM on June 7 [8 favorites]
Maybe it's silly or wrong but I always thought of the rainbow flag as the gay pride flag and I'm queer (trans) but straight so having trans flag in addition to the rainbow feels good to me and I understand why members of other groups would feel the same way.
posted by an octopus IRL at 2:54 PM on June 7 [7 favorites]
posted by an octopus IRL at 2:54 PM on June 7 [7 favorites]
And then I saw this picture of a couple of transphobes who'd stolen a Progress Pride flag
I know FTFY is out of favor, but Fuck That and FuckY Them.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:10 PM on June 7
I know FTFY is out of favor, but Fuck That and Fuck
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:10 PM on June 7
huh, i always thought that was "fixed that for you". TIL.
posted by Clowder of bats at 8:35 PM on June 7 [3 favorites]
posted by Clowder of bats at 8:35 PM on June 7 [3 favorites]
My thing is, I like the trans flag, the bi flag, and the pan flagâall of which apply to meâjust fine, and the colors are nicely complementary. And I do love rainbows, so I like the pride and pride forward flags too. But I really don't love the color combinations for some of the other flags that apply to me, like nonbinary, demisexual, or genderqueer flags. I get the symbolism. I'm just not personally a huge fan of combinations of green, black, purple, and yellow.
Same for the polyamorous flag, and apparently I'm not alone in that. I'm not as much of a fan of the flags that have symbols over the linesâthey look kitschy to me. The design system of pride flags feels more unified to me with variations on lines.
But that's just me! Looks like there are some alternatives for each of those flags I don't love, but good luck finding somewhere to buy one.
It's worth going through the LGBTQIA+ Wiki and similar wikis, though. They have so many more flags for various orientations. There's still no flag for hyperromantic orientation, so I should make one sometime, or I guess figure out what else it might already be called!
(Also I am probably actually genderfluid but I just dislike the term, and genderqueer has some of its own baggage, so I usually say nonbinary these days.)
posted by limeonaire at 9:32 AM on June 8 [6 favorites]
Same for the polyamorous flag, and apparently I'm not alone in that. I'm not as much of a fan of the flags that have symbols over the linesâthey look kitschy to me. The design system of pride flags feels more unified to me with variations on lines.
But that's just me! Looks like there are some alternatives for each of those flags I don't love, but good luck finding somewhere to buy one.
It's worth going through the LGBTQIA+ Wiki and similar wikis, though. They have so many more flags for various orientations. There's still no flag for hyperromantic orientation, so I should make one sometime, or I guess figure out what else it might already be called!
(Also I am probably actually genderfluid but I just dislike the term, and genderqueer has some of its own baggage, so I usually say nonbinary these days.)
posted by limeonaire at 9:32 AM on June 8 [6 favorites]
Yeah I spent yesterday in a skirt that's basically the trans pride flag as a tiered broomstick skirt so obviously I love that flag. :D
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:14 AM on June 9 [2 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:14 AM on June 9 [2 favorites]
> this seems like a good chance to plug flagsforgood, where you can buy progressive flags from a site that doesn't ALSO sell, say, confederate battle flags. also, they're huge nerds about it, it's great.
Ooh, I'm in the market for a new flag. Thank you!
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:13 PM on June 13
Ooh, I'm in the market for a new flag. Thank you!
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:13 PM on June 13
i always thought that [FTFY] was "fixed that for you".
It is. Not sure how "fuck that fuck you" got applied here, to be honest.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:24 PM on June 17 [2 favorites]
It is. Not sure how "fuck that fuck you" got applied here, to be honest.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:24 PM on June 17 [2 favorites]
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posted by jacquilynne at 9:08 AM on June 6 [5 favorites]