When you love a man, don’t spoil everything by marrying him
June 14, 2024 6:09 AM Subscribe
For those who have started down the road of matrimony and remain on it. For others who left, came back, and found themselves broken, free, or enlightened. And for the many who dream of what marriage is or curse what they imagine it to be. This one's for you.
absolutely spot-on chef's kiss footnote, at the very bottom: Weeks later, after much intense speculation, Princess Margaret publicly announced that she would not be marrying Peter Townsend.
posted by chavenet at 6:57 AM on June 14 [2 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 6:57 AM on June 14 [2 favorites]
Very moving little collection of quotes, and they capture the intense ambiguity and oddness of that venerable institution.
People ask me for advice about marriage sometimes because I had a long and successful one (46 years), ended only by my husband's death. I mostly just shrug and tell them to leave their spouses alone and not expect a partner to make you happy. It's one of the dumbest and most irritating customs in the universe.
posted by Peach at 6:59 AM on June 14 [29 favorites]
People ask me for advice about marriage sometimes because I had a long and successful one (46 years), ended only by my husband's death. I mostly just shrug and tell them to leave their spouses alone and not expect a partner to make you happy. It's one of the dumbest and most irritating customs in the universe.
posted by Peach at 6:59 AM on June 14 [29 favorites]
Shepherd and I crossed the fifteen year mark earlier this year, and if there is anything I have learned from being married that's made an impact on me, it's this: it's not enough to love your partner, you also have to like them too.*
Like, if you weren't married to them, would you still want to spend time with them in a platonic way? Would you find them interesting as a person outside of the marriage framework? And within the marriage framework, do you grow together?
*you'd think this would be a no-brainer but it's been interesting to meet married folks who don't seem to like their spouses every much despite claiming to love them.
posted by Kitteh at 7:30 AM on June 14 [30 favorites]
Like, if you weren't married to them, would you still want to spend time with them in a platonic way? Would you find them interesting as a person outside of the marriage framework? And within the marriage framework, do you grow together?
*you'd think this would be a no-brainer but it's been interesting to meet married folks who don't seem to like their spouses every much despite claiming to love them.
posted by Kitteh at 7:30 AM on June 14 [30 favorites]
absolutely spot-on chef's kiss footnote, at the very bottom: Weeks later, after much intense speculation, Princess Margaret publicly announced that she would not be marrying Peter Townsend.
Yeah, but it's not, you know, THAT Peter Towns(h)end, because I suspect that would have prompted a somewhat stronger letter from Her Majesty.
posted by The Bellman at 7:43 AM on June 14 [9 favorites]
Yeah, but it's not, you know, THAT Peter Towns(h)end, because I suspect that would have prompted a somewhat stronger letter from Her Majesty.
posted by The Bellman at 7:43 AM on June 14 [9 favorites]
I very much separate marriage (the legal institution) from partnership (in a relationship fashion) in my mind, and I think that conflating the two is a major source of unnecessary pain for so many people. Many partnerships are not intended to last forever, but even when they end can still be immensely valuable to the people in them. But marriage is designed in a fashion that makes that end difficult and painful.
When friends ask me about marriage, I tell them they should have a specific reason they want the legal institution rather than just that they want to spend lots of time with the person. My partner and I got married for that most traditional of American reasons -- health insurance -- as well as to provide financial security for her at a time when my earning power was taking off and hers was stagnating. But if we hadn't had those reasons, we wouldn't have bothered with the paperwork, and I don't think our daily lives would be very different.
posted by learning from frequent failure at 7:45 AM on June 14 [4 favorites]
When friends ask me about marriage, I tell them they should have a specific reason they want the legal institution rather than just that they want to spend lots of time with the person. My partner and I got married for that most traditional of American reasons -- health insurance -- as well as to provide financial security for her at a time when my earning power was taking off and hers was stagnating. But if we hadn't had those reasons, we wouldn't have bothered with the paperwork, and I don't think our daily lives would be very different.
posted by learning from frequent failure at 7:45 AM on June 14 [4 favorites]
Like, if you weren't married to them, would you still want to spend time with them in a platonic way? Would you find them interesting as a person outside of the marriage framework? And within the marriage framework, do you grow together?
When Covid dictated that we drastically tighten contact with the outside world, I thought of people I knew who I thought I could spend a ton of time with and asked a friend from the neighborhood bar if she would be my pandemic person. I was not angling for a romantic relationship and, if it weren't for all that time we could only spend with each other, I don't think we would have discovered that we are relationship compatible. We are happy not being married with no desire to reproduce ourselves.
posted by gestalt saloon at 7:46 AM on June 14 [12 favorites]
When Covid dictated that we drastically tighten contact with the outside world, I thought of people I knew who I thought I could spend a ton of time with and asked a friend from the neighborhood bar if she would be my pandemic person. I was not angling for a romantic relationship and, if it weren't for all that time we could only spend with each other, I don't think we would have discovered that we are relationship compatible. We are happy not being married with no desire to reproduce ourselves.
posted by gestalt saloon at 7:46 AM on June 14 [12 favorites]
When friends ask me about marriage, I tell them they should have a specific reason they want the legal institution rather than just that they want to spend lots of time with the person.
Mine was immigration. If we had lived in the same country when we met, I would have been perfectly fine with common-law or just being together forever without a marriage licence. I did keep my maiden name, which everyone except immediate family was up in arms about. (Like no, Aunt C, I don't care that you are shocked I didn't take his last name. Your opinion on the matter is not relevant.)
posted by Kitteh at 7:50 AM on June 14 [4 favorites]
Mine was immigration. If we had lived in the same country when we met, I would have been perfectly fine with common-law or just being together forever without a marriage licence. I did keep my maiden name, which everyone except immediate family was up in arms about. (Like no, Aunt C, I don't care that you are shocked I didn't take his last name. Your opinion on the matter is not relevant.)
posted by Kitteh at 7:50 AM on June 14 [4 favorites]
Just today, Grumpybearbride and I had to go get something notarized for the first time. While we were sitting with the notary, I said "even after 11 years of marriage, we can still break some boundaries!" and we high-fived, which is our thing. Later on, the notary asked if we had any advice for making it to 11 years as she was on her sixth year of marriage and things were "getting stale." I awkwardly started on about each person being a distinct entity before abandoning the advice train.
All I know is that we discovered early on that we both enjoyed making stuffed animals talk.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:57 AM on June 14 [16 favorites]
All I know is that we discovered early on that we both enjoyed making stuffed animals talk.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:57 AM on June 14 [16 favorites]
But marriage is designed in a fashion that makes that end difficult and painful.
I mean, I don't think marriage alone prompts a difficult and painful ending to a relationship. The dissolution of my 10-year unmarried partnership was orders of magnitude more difficult than my prior legal divorce. And I suspect (and hope never to find out!) that the breakup of my current relationship would be something close to physically unbearable.
I suppose it is an added layer of pain to break everything off, move out, split up the stuff, and THEN have to face that person in court, but up until the courthouse all of the other stuff pertains to any cohabiting relationship.
A friend of mine once, when he was longing to settle down but stuck in a pattern of short, fiery relationships, asked his mom how his parents managed their long, long marriage. Her response: "you just ...don't get divorced." The way he tells it, this seemed pat, and then depressing, and then very wise. You're married until you un-marry. Within that state are a universe of relationship statuses but quite simply if you want to stay married, you just don't get divorced, and you wait, or work, for everything else within that to change.
He met his now-wife shortly after that conversation and I wonder if he ever thinks about it now.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:16 AM on June 14 [4 favorites]
I mean, I don't think marriage alone prompts a difficult and painful ending to a relationship. The dissolution of my 10-year unmarried partnership was orders of magnitude more difficult than my prior legal divorce. And I suspect (and hope never to find out!) that the breakup of my current relationship would be something close to physically unbearable.
I suppose it is an added layer of pain to break everything off, move out, split up the stuff, and THEN have to face that person in court, but up until the courthouse all of the other stuff pertains to any cohabiting relationship.
A friend of mine once, when he was longing to settle down but stuck in a pattern of short, fiery relationships, asked his mom how his parents managed their long, long marriage. Her response: "you just ...don't get divorced." The way he tells it, this seemed pat, and then depressing, and then very wise. You're married until you un-marry. Within that state are a universe of relationship statuses but quite simply if you want to stay married, you just don't get divorced, and you wait, or work, for everything else within that to change.
He met his now-wife shortly after that conversation and I wonder if he ever thinks about it now.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:16 AM on June 14 [4 favorites]
Some people are really wired to partner up. I love getting to work with my wife almost every day and spending a lot of time together. But it’s a challenge not making the relationship all about work (or about parenting when we were more actively doing that). You have to make an effort to grow together and go in the same direction. You also have to make an effort to find separate interests and have alone time and time with other people. There has to be commitment to get through the hard times and a willingness to carry the other person when they need it, but there has to be reciprocity. It’s a balancing act and a juggling act. I would not have been able to collaborate well enough to run a business together in our first ten years of marriage, but we both learned a lot over the years, about each other and about ourselves. I can’t believe we were smart enough and lucky enough as the kids we were to fall in love and decide to get married, but thank goodness we did!
posted by rikschell at 8:34 AM on June 14 [7 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 8:34 AM on June 14 [7 favorites]
I asked my late Uncle Paul for advice on marriage once. He was a big, potbellied redneck man with a pug nose, dotted with gin blossoms, silver hair and beard, and hands like catcher's mitts. He met my aunt in AA and they'd been blissfully married for as long as I could remember.
"You get you a piece of paper and a pen, okay? And you write down what kind of wife you want her to be. You write down how she gonna make you coffee every morning. How she's gonna cook your favorite things to eat. How she always gonna listen and she always gonna believe in you no matter what you do. You write how she's gonna take care of herself. How she's gonna keep telling you how handsome you are, even when you get old and fat. She's gonna be kind to your family, even when they're a pain in the ass. She's gonna be a good host to your friends. She's gonna put you first, not herself... Okay, you get all that written down. And then you do all that for her. Marriage is hard but it ain't complicated. Figure out the most you could ask of her and that's the least you owe her."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:40 AM on June 14 [137 favorites]
"You get you a piece of paper and a pen, okay? And you write down what kind of wife you want her to be. You write down how she gonna make you coffee every morning. How she's gonna cook your favorite things to eat. How she always gonna listen and she always gonna believe in you no matter what you do. You write how she's gonna take care of herself. How she's gonna keep telling you how handsome you are, even when you get old and fat. She's gonna be kind to your family, even when they're a pain in the ass. She's gonna be a good host to your friends. She's gonna put you first, not herself... Okay, you get all that written down. And then you do all that for her. Marriage is hard but it ain't complicated. Figure out the most you could ask of her and that's the least you owe her."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:40 AM on June 14 [137 favorites]
I'm in a partnership where we live together and talk about marriage but aren't in a particular hurry. We might not? If we did, it would be for rights needed as we age/need healthcare/want to be able to share financial burdens and buy a house, etc. In terms of relationship, we don't need the ceremony, but there's no non-marriage way to get some rights. And since we both have adult children who would have a say, that's important.
We still live in the world where marriage is about property and legal rights. If we had better social systems, it could be less so!
But having a successful relationship is actually a different challenge altogether. Having both previously divorced after 20+ years, we are skittish still and extra-careful about not repeating certain mistakes.
posted by emjaybee at 8:52 AM on June 14 [5 favorites]
We still live in the world where marriage is about property and legal rights. If we had better social systems, it could be less so!
But having a successful relationship is actually a different challenge altogether. Having both previously divorced after 20+ years, we are skittish still and extra-careful about not repeating certain mistakes.
posted by emjaybee at 8:52 AM on June 14 [5 favorites]
My marriage is unusual in that twelve years in I came out as trans to my straight cis spouse; we'd had more and less difficult times before that (largely relating to my mental health issues) but finding out, as a straight man, that you are unexpectedly married to another straight man twelve years in is almost certainly one of the most challenging things that can happen to a marriage and despite that I have to say it's been wonderful. The relationship looks different in some ways but we are still married and still love each other very much and are really happy to be a family. Marriage isn't for everyone, and marriage is not one-size-fits-all as I can attest as part of a very unconventional marriage, but my spouse has been loving and supportive of me in so many beautiful ways and I love that we have the relationship we have.
posted by an octopus IRL at 9:28 AM on June 14 [35 favorites]
posted by an octopus IRL at 9:28 AM on June 14 [35 favorites]
We still live in the world where marriage is about property and legal rights.
Always has been
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:31 AM on June 14 [3 favorites]
Always has been
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:31 AM on June 14 [3 favorites]
My wife and I passed 17 years in May, will celebrate 24 as a couple in July. So far so great! What Kitteh said about actually liking your spouse, but also maybe in our case it helped to not have kids because it reduced the number of potential stressors/things we might have disagreed about, and because neither of us have had to balance our identities with the demands of parenthood. Not a dig at parents; part of the reason we got together in the first place was because we were both already sure we didn’t want kids at the ages of 27 and 25, in part because neither of us wanted to have to make those lifestyle modifications.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:45 AM on June 14 [2 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:45 AM on June 14 [2 favorites]
^ Samesies^
No matter how much I love someone, if they can't get on board with something as significant as my choice to not have children, then that partnership is a non-starter.
posted by Kitteh at 9:49 AM on June 14 [4 favorites]
No matter how much I love someone, if they can't get on board with something as significant as my choice to not have children, then that partnership is a non-starter.
posted by Kitteh at 9:49 AM on June 14 [4 favorites]
No Sondheim? The entire musical Company is about the paradoxes of marriage.
From the song, Regretful-Grateful.
[ROBERT, spoken]
Harry, you ever sorry you got married?
[HARRY]
You're always sorry
You're always grateful
You're always wondering what might have been
Then she walks in
And still you're sorry
And still you're grateful
And still you wonder and still you doubt
And she goes out
Everything's different
Nothing's changed
Only maybe slightly
Rearranged
You're sorry-grateful
Regretful-happy
Why look for answers where none occur?
You always are what you always were
Which has nothing to do with
All to do with her
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:08 AM on June 14 [9 favorites]
From the song, Regretful-Grateful.
[ROBERT, spoken]
Harry, you ever sorry you got married?
[HARRY]
You're always sorry
You're always grateful
You're always wondering what might have been
Then she walks in
And still you're sorry
And still you're grateful
And still you wonder and still you doubt
And she goes out
Everything's different
Nothing's changed
Only maybe slightly
Rearranged
You're sorry-grateful
Regretful-happy
Why look for answers where none occur?
You always are what you always were
Which has nothing to do with
All to do with her
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:08 AM on June 14 [9 favorites]
"I don’t like the alternative at all but at least there's nobody telling me yesterday’s sins every morning, when I goof it’s my fault, when I succeed it’s my own too."
As a perma-single, I feel this deeply. There's an ownership of everything in your home life. Unfortunately, that also means there's no-one else to put blame on sometimes. But the fights are shorter.
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:16 AM on June 14 [3 favorites]
As a perma-single, I feel this deeply. There's an ownership of everything in your home life. Unfortunately, that also means there's no-one else to put blame on sometimes. But the fights are shorter.
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:16 AM on June 14 [3 favorites]
Yeah, but it's not, you know, THAT Peter Towns(h)end, because I suspect that would have prompted a somewhat stronger letter from Her Majesty.
the other timeline is better
posted by chavenet at 10:24 AM on June 14 [2 favorites]
the other timeline is better
posted by chavenet at 10:24 AM on June 14 [2 favorites]
I'm happily married, but was single for quite a while and had embraced the notion of being single and uncommitted when I got into a relationship that turned into a marriage.
It was a long distance relationship with someone who had dated a great number of flaky, rudderless partners. We were talking about moving in together and before they agreed, they really, really wanted to be sure that I was going to stick around.
"You need to propose marriage to me before I choose to live with you" is kind of backwards with how society does relationships now, but we were also friends for 20 years, and already had a pretty good idea of who we both were. I embraced marriage, but it did make me think how we don't have a lot of options for expressing something like, "I think this relationship is worth making a major life decision about. I am willing to commit myself to this relationship in a way that matters."
(not that all proposals are given with that kind of intentionality, but let's suppose they are)
And, yes, I get how some relationships or partnerships get distorted or ruined by putting this kind of weight on them. I get that some people really don't want to be tied down with this kind of commitment. But there are also folks who want commitment, but maybe not lifetime commitment. But enough surety to feel like we can buy a house together, or move, or trust you to take care of me if I'm sick.
My last relationship prior to this was seven years of cohabitation where talking about moving in together was the boundary where we both knew this relationship was a commitment, so it was interesting to be in this situation where even having the cohabitation conversation had a "gesture of commitment" requirement; and it made me wonder what I would've done if I was committed to being unmarried.
posted by bl1nk at 10:25 AM on June 14 [1 favorite]
It was a long distance relationship with someone who had dated a great number of flaky, rudderless partners. We were talking about moving in together and before they agreed, they really, really wanted to be sure that I was going to stick around.
"You need to propose marriage to me before I choose to live with you" is kind of backwards with how society does relationships now, but we were also friends for 20 years, and already had a pretty good idea of who we both were. I embraced marriage, but it did make me think how we don't have a lot of options for expressing something like, "I think this relationship is worth making a major life decision about. I am willing to commit myself to this relationship in a way that matters."
(not that all proposals are given with that kind of intentionality, but let's suppose they are)
And, yes, I get how some relationships or partnerships get distorted or ruined by putting this kind of weight on them. I get that some people really don't want to be tied down with this kind of commitment. But there are also folks who want commitment, but maybe not lifetime commitment. But enough surety to feel like we can buy a house together, or move, or trust you to take care of me if I'm sick.
My last relationship prior to this was seven years of cohabitation where talking about moving in together was the boundary where we both knew this relationship was a commitment, so it was interesting to be in this situation where even having the cohabitation conversation had a "gesture of commitment" requirement; and it made me wonder what I would've done if I was committed to being unmarried.
posted by bl1nk at 10:25 AM on June 14 [1 favorite]
When friends ask me about marriage, I tell them they should have a specific reason they want the legal institution rather than just that they want to spend lots of time with the person.
I tend to go the other way -- if you're involved in each others' lives deeply enough that you really kinda want some help getting disentangled from each other... Congratulations! You are already married! You just didn't tell the government, and are any of several varieties of bad day from finding out why you maybe oughta have.
Many partnerships are not intended to last forever, but even when they end can still be immensely valuable to the people in them. But marriage is designed in a fashion that makes that end difficult and painful.
Because there are courts and judges and stuff? Hard disagreement. Marriage is designed in a fashion to ensure that that end isn't grossly unfair.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:41 AM on June 14 [1 favorite]
I tend to go the other way -- if you're involved in each others' lives deeply enough that you really kinda want some help getting disentangled from each other... Congratulations! You are already married! You just didn't tell the government, and are any of several varieties of bad day from finding out why you maybe oughta have.
Many partnerships are not intended to last forever, but even when they end can still be immensely valuable to the people in them. But marriage is designed in a fashion that makes that end difficult and painful.
Because there are courts and judges and stuff? Hard disagreement. Marriage is designed in a fashion to ensure that that end isn't grossly unfair.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:41 AM on June 14 [1 favorite]
also, separately, as someone who has attended, planned, and officiated weddings, I do wish that more folks in partnerships could feel empowered to have their own big parties celebrating how awesome it is to be in love. More celebratory housewarmings for folks moving in together! Plan a big party for your 5th or 10th dating anniversary!
All kinds of relationships are worth celebrating, not just the ones that are legally binding or a precursor to child rearing.
posted by bl1nk at 10:57 AM on June 14 [7 favorites]
All kinds of relationships are worth celebrating, not just the ones that are legally binding or a precursor to child rearing.
posted by bl1nk at 10:57 AM on June 14 [7 favorites]
My wife and I started dating fairly young (high school!) and we spent 8 lovely years NOT being married. We wanted to get married but did not rush it. We waited until we were out of college and had jobs with health insurance, because she's very responsible and I was smart enough to listen to her. 8 years was enough time to figure out whether or not we actually liked each other before we made things more official.
We were married 10 years before deciding to have a kid. 10 years was enough time for us to figure out who we were as a couple, and whether we really wanted to throw our genes into the mix to create a new person in the first place. We were very mature and 100% ready to be parents. (This is sarcasm: NO ONE is ever actually prepared for it. It is hard and scary and stressful in new and different ways on a daily basis. Here be dragons, good luck.)
We're about 2 months away from our 26th anniversary. She still likes me (or puts up with me) and I am usually still smart enough to listen to her. We've been through enough stuff together that we both know we can trust each other completely, and we know that we have each other's backs. Our small human turned into a gangly teen who seesaws from thoughtful responsibility to acting like a moron on an unpredictable daily cycle. Overall, we feel like we did a not totally sucky job raising him. SO FAR.
Here is what I learned from all of the above: When it comes to relationships, marriage, or kids, whatever it is you decide to do, do what is right for you. And even then someone else will tell you you're doing it wrong.
posted by caution live frogs at 11:33 AM on June 14 [8 favorites]
We were married 10 years before deciding to have a kid. 10 years was enough time for us to figure out who we were as a couple, and whether we really wanted to throw our genes into the mix to create a new person in the first place. We were very mature and 100% ready to be parents. (This is sarcasm: NO ONE is ever actually prepared for it. It is hard and scary and stressful in new and different ways on a daily basis. Here be dragons, good luck.)
We're about 2 months away from our 26th anniversary. She still likes me (or puts up with me) and I am usually still smart enough to listen to her. We've been through enough stuff together that we both know we can trust each other completely, and we know that we have each other's backs. Our small human turned into a gangly teen who seesaws from thoughtful responsibility to acting like a moron on an unpredictable daily cycle. Overall, we feel like we did a not totally sucky job raising him. SO FAR.
Here is what I learned from all of the above: When it comes to relationships, marriage, or kids, whatever it is you decide to do, do what is right for you. And even then someone else will tell you you're doing it wrong.
posted by caution live frogs at 11:33 AM on June 14 [8 favorites]
My relationship has the emotional salience of a marriage, but I'm hesitant to make it legal as long as I continue not to have marriage equality in the UK as a nonbinary person. I really love my partner and I really hate being forced to misgender myself at the hands of an institutionally transphobic state.
We've recently decided to make a big move, and watching my partner wholeheartedly get on board with it and do the lion's share of the work of getting our home ready to sell (even though the move has more benefits for me on paper and I've been struggling to contribute as much due to work and sickness) has been a wonderful reminder that we make a great team, and that we're committed to evolving our lives together even after a point (11 years in, 10 living together, 7 in our current house) where things could have easily become stale or stuck in a groove that might feel to deep to get out of. We're moving partly because I have deep community in another city, and it's been amazing that partner has been up for the change (despite it taking them away from the place where they grew up) and I haven't been torn for even a moment between my person here and my community there.
I grew up in the era of Bridget Jones and frankly never assumed I might find such romantic happiness by this age; I certainly never expected to stumble upon it almost by accident when I was 24. Growing up with parents who didn't seem to like me and never communicated that they loved me, it's been so healing to spend so long with someone who is so overtly loving, affectionate and kind.
posted by terretu at 11:50 AM on June 14 [2 favorites]
We've recently decided to make a big move, and watching my partner wholeheartedly get on board with it and do the lion's share of the work of getting our home ready to sell (even though the move has more benefits for me on paper and I've been struggling to contribute as much due to work and sickness) has been a wonderful reminder that we make a great team, and that we're committed to evolving our lives together even after a point (11 years in, 10 living together, 7 in our current house) where things could have easily become stale or stuck in a groove that might feel to deep to get out of. We're moving partly because I have deep community in another city, and it's been amazing that partner has been up for the change (despite it taking them away from the place where they grew up) and I haven't been torn for even a moment between my person here and my community there.
I grew up in the era of Bridget Jones and frankly never assumed I might find such romantic happiness by this age; I certainly never expected to stumble upon it almost by accident when I was 24. Growing up with parents who didn't seem to like me and never communicated that they loved me, it's been so healing to spend so long with someone who is so overtly loving, affectionate and kind.
posted by terretu at 11:50 AM on June 14 [2 favorites]
"I'll be damned if I participate in a ceremony where one man gives me away to another man"
- Me, when asked why I haven't married my boyfriend of 21 years
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 1:24 PM on June 14 [6 favorites]
- Me, when asked why I haven't married my boyfriend of 21 years
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 1:24 PM on June 14 [6 favorites]
As someone who has never been married, was tokenly engaged (which is to say, it's not like we ever got to the point of wedding planning, also what Kitteh said about children), and has been single for two decades now, I'm not sure if I'd want to get married or not? Kinda yes for the romance and practical reasons like insurance/immigration, possible no for the divorce process and I don't want to be in charge of wedding planning, and also I have no idea what I'd be like as a long term live in romantic partner since I have never had that opportunity to find out. I guess I could go either way, but I'd love to actually experience what long-term romantic life could be at some point before I die, and I guess we'd decide later on the shacking up and/or marriage thing if it came to that. But I admit the romance of "Someone chose me! Publicly!" and finally fitting in with the world on that level is a powerful mental thing, even if I refuse to be Mrs. Hisname. On the other hand, not being able to break it off with someone and go no contact immediately due to divorce, I dunno there either.
This week I did (yet another) one of those "lists of what I want in a man," complete with ritual and the like (including making a St. Anthony out of yarn and flipping him upside down), and I left it open on the marriage part. I want a long term partnership, I'm not sure myself if I want to make it legal or not, like kinda yes, but also it depends on situation. So I didn't quite write down "wants to marry me," I left it flexible. If I ever get into another relationship again, we'll see.
All I know is that we discovered early on that we both enjoyed making stuffed animals talk.
posted by grumpybear69
Awww, and also eponysterical.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:24 PM on June 14 [5 favorites]
This week I did (yet another) one of those "lists of what I want in a man," complete with ritual and the like (including making a St. Anthony out of yarn and flipping him upside down), and I left it open on the marriage part. I want a long term partnership, I'm not sure myself if I want to make it legal or not, like kinda yes, but also it depends on situation. So I didn't quite write down "wants to marry me," I left it flexible. If I ever get into another relationship again, we'll see.
All I know is that we discovered early on that we both enjoyed making stuffed animals talk.
posted by grumpybear69
Awww, and also eponysterical.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:24 PM on June 14 [5 favorites]
I fought and marched for my right to marry my wife. We married as son as it was legal where we lived (DC), and my married life is wonderful. But I remember being so confused and startled that my (sheltered, Midwestern, but accepting) family started treating our relationship as more significant when we got married. We'd been together for a decade and were getting comments about how exciting it was to have our first holidays together as a married couple!!
posted by quiet wanderer at 2:59 PM on June 14 [9 favorites]
posted by quiet wanderer at 2:59 PM on June 14 [9 favorites]
if you're involved in each others' lives deeply enough that you really kinda want some help getting disentangled from each other... Congratulations! You are already married! You just didn't tell the government, and are any of several varieties of bad day from finding out why you maybe oughta have.
This is not universal, here you don't have to tell the government (except in your tax return), defacto partnership is automatically recognised and brings with it all the rights of marriage. My partner and I aren't married and there's absolutely no practical benefit to doing so. We have family health insurance, are automatically each other's next of kin and have the same rights as a married person should we break up. It kicks in after two years of living together as a couple and excludes housemates.
There are surprisingly few problems from taking this approach as a society.
posted by deadwax at 3:13 PM on June 14 [5 favorites]
This is not universal, here you don't have to tell the government (except in your tax return), defacto partnership is automatically recognised and brings with it all the rights of marriage. My partner and I aren't married and there's absolutely no practical benefit to doing so. We have family health insurance, are automatically each other's next of kin and have the same rights as a married person should we break up. It kicks in after two years of living together as a couple and excludes housemates.
There are surprisingly few problems from taking this approach as a society.
posted by deadwax at 3:13 PM on June 14 [5 favorites]
Fair, but does that mean in your country it's impossible to be long-term partners without being legally-equivalent-to-married?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:48 PM on June 14
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:48 PM on June 14
Weeks later, after much intense speculation, Princess Margaret publicly announced that she would not be marrying Peter Townsend.
It's a rather sad story. She wanted to marry him, but was opposed by her family, the government and the church. Townsend was divorced, you see.
Recall that Edward VIII abdicated in order to marry a divorcée, and the remaining royals were all sternly schooled to abide by their duty. With that wound still relatively fresh, Margaret was told by her sister, her brother-in-law and her mother that they could not approve the marriage, and Townsend was immediately reassigned out of the country. (Imagine your sister, four years older, doing that).
The Archbishop of Canterbury weighed in and said the Church of England would not recognise the marriage, and furthermore Margaret would be barred from receiving Communion if she married a divorced man. Churchill opposed it too (apparently they needed Parliamentary approval?!??) And the British press were their usual horrible selves about it.
So Margaret Windsor couldn't marry Peter Townsend, whom she loved and who loved her. And years later, when she married someone else (she got engaged the day after Townsend did) it was unhappy on both sides and they ended up divorced.
And now we have a King and Queen who both divorced before they married each other, with full consent of the church, the government and the same monarch who once stymied her sister's marriage. It's all weirdly Shakespearean with a dash of Noel Coward and maybe some Gilbert and Sullivan sprinkled on top.
(Margaret died in 2002; Charles and Camilla were married in 2005. One wonders what Margaret's thoughts might have been, had she lived to attend.)
posted by Pallas Athena at 4:26 PM on June 14 [6 favorites]
It's a rather sad story. She wanted to marry him, but was opposed by her family, the government and the church. Townsend was divorced, you see.
Recall that Edward VIII abdicated in order to marry a divorcée, and the remaining royals were all sternly schooled to abide by their duty. With that wound still relatively fresh, Margaret was told by her sister, her brother-in-law and her mother that they could not approve the marriage, and Townsend was immediately reassigned out of the country. (Imagine your sister, four years older, doing that).
The Archbishop of Canterbury weighed in and said the Church of England would not recognise the marriage, and furthermore Margaret would be barred from receiving Communion if she married a divorced man. Churchill opposed it too (apparently they needed Parliamentary approval?!??) And the British press were their usual horrible selves about it.
So Margaret Windsor couldn't marry Peter Townsend, whom she loved and who loved her. And years later, when she married someone else (she got engaged the day after Townsend did) it was unhappy on both sides and they ended up divorced.
And now we have a King and Queen who both divorced before they married each other, with full consent of the church, the government and the same monarch who once stymied her sister's marriage. It's all weirdly Shakespearean with a dash of Noel Coward and maybe some Gilbert and Sullivan sprinkled on top.
(Margaret died in 2002; Charles and Camilla were married in 2005. One wonders what Margaret's thoughts might have been, had she lived to attend.)
posted by Pallas Athena at 4:26 PM on June 14 [6 favorites]
Fair, but does that mean in your country it's impossible to be long-term partners without being legally-equivalent-to-married?
Well I'm not sure how the law views long term couples who don't live together as that's never applied to me, but otherwise yes. If you want the milk you automatically buy the cow, to butcher that godawful saying. This aids equity, there's no skipping out of your obligations to the other just because you never got married.
posted by deadwax at 4:26 PM on June 14 [2 favorites]
Well I'm not sure how the law views long term couples who don't live together as that's never applied to me, but otherwise yes. If you want the milk you automatically buy the cow, to butcher that godawful saying. This aids equity, there's no skipping out of your obligations to the other just because you never got married.
posted by deadwax at 4:26 PM on June 14 [2 favorites]
If you do get married, then do it with someone you like and admire and think is a great person that makes the world better.
Why? Because there may come a time when "in sickness and health" is put to the test and it's a lot easier to do that for a fantastic person you love than for your spouse.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:28 PM on June 14 [3 favorites]
Why? Because there may come a time when "in sickness and health" is put to the test and it's a lot easier to do that for a fantastic person you love than for your spouse.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:28 PM on June 14 [3 favorites]
Today is our 40th wedding anniversary. We're happy. Never happier. Has it always been like this? Not on your life. We've given each other hell as well as heaven; relentless ego, immaturity, utter inability to see over the high walls of the self, blindness to how how I respond to my hurts, hurts her, inability to forgive, willingness to cling to grievances, real and imagined, all this and more.
How did we survive? Why did we survive? (If these are different questions). Throughout it all, we 'genuinely loved each other' says my wife. I don't know. But that's what anchored her. Me? I've often felt there's a deep, visceral attachment to her in the mix. I love her and want her today in pretty much the same way I did at 31 when we met. I'm 73. That's clear. Less clear to me is the nature of my commitment to her. That's also primal. Almost existential. Like the reason why Prometheus kept waking up each morning to have his guts ripped out again. Haha. I could do with losing weight.
Is marriage a factor? Yes, it is. Not remotely the whole story. But there's wisdom and deep knowledge of human affairs in the marriage vows that helps express and maybe even to channel the primal bond.
She's home next Wednesday. Been away looking after 'the kids.' I can hardly wait to see her. When we do, we'll both laugh out loud and chuckle with delight at the sight of each other, we always do, a babbling brook of happy. She's always got a 500 watt smile, mine will go up to that on Wednesday. Then we'll subside into a deep, contented, ease and familiarity.
Here's to another 40 years!
posted by dutchrick at 4:03 AM on June 15 [16 favorites]
How did we survive? Why did we survive? (If these are different questions). Throughout it all, we 'genuinely loved each other' says my wife. I don't know. But that's what anchored her. Me? I've often felt there's a deep, visceral attachment to her in the mix. I love her and want her today in pretty much the same way I did at 31 when we met. I'm 73. That's clear. Less clear to me is the nature of my commitment to her. That's also primal. Almost existential. Like the reason why Prometheus kept waking up each morning to have his guts ripped out again. Haha. I could do with losing weight.
Is marriage a factor? Yes, it is. Not remotely the whole story. But there's wisdom and deep knowledge of human affairs in the marriage vows that helps express and maybe even to channel the primal bond.
She's home next Wednesday. Been away looking after 'the kids.' I can hardly wait to see her. When we do, we'll both laugh out loud and chuckle with delight at the sight of each other, we always do, a babbling brook of happy. She's always got a 500 watt smile, mine will go up to that on Wednesday. Then we'll subside into a deep, contented, ease and familiarity.
Here's to another 40 years!
posted by dutchrick at 4:03 AM on June 15 [16 favorites]
It's always interesting how some people find love early and it just works for them all the time, vs. those like me who do not. Some are just lucky, I suppose.
I'd feel more sympathy towards Princess Margaret and Peter Townsend except for the part where Peter very clearly Went For Teen Girls and ran off and married a teenager after Margaret, and his first wife was a teenager when he married her, and gee, how old was Margaret again....The whole thing is a sad wreck otherwise, but once I found out Peter was a teen chaser, I got uncomfortable.
(Also, what the hell is a "Group Captain?" I've never heard this term used for anyone but him.)
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:50 AM on June 15 [4 favorites]
I'd feel more sympathy towards Princess Margaret and Peter Townsend except for the part where Peter very clearly Went For Teen Girls and ran off and married a teenager after Margaret, and his first wife was a teenager when he married her, and gee, how old was Margaret again....The whole thing is a sad wreck otherwise, but once I found out Peter was a teen chaser, I got uncomfortable.
(Also, what the hell is a "Group Captain?" I've never heard this term used for anyone but him.)
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:50 AM on June 15 [4 favorites]
You are right jenfullmoon luck is a huge part of it all - not only in terms of meeting someone but no less in staying together. Frankly, it's a miracle to me that we survived. I often thought we wouldn't. Someone how we did and while we're doing so we slowly grew up and learnt how to treat each other they way we wanted to be treated ourselves. But man, it was a close run thing.
posted by dutchrick at 10:00 AM on June 15 [4 favorites]
posted by dutchrick at 10:00 AM on June 15 [4 favorites]
Also, what the hell is a "Group Captain?"
O-6. In the USAF, Army, USMC, Colonel. USN, Captain.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:15 AM on June 15 [1 favorite]
O-6. In the USAF, Army, USMC, Colonel. USN, Captain.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:15 AM on June 15 [1 favorite]
On the other hand:
A Grouper Captain heads a school of fish.
A Groupon Captain oversees merchant discounts.
A Grout Captain manages your bathroom tiles.
A Groot Captain is when a tree-like movie character gets a promotion.
A Group Capstan is used to pull many ropes at once.
"Gruel Captain" is the nickname for the head cook in an orphanage.
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:31 PM on June 15 [5 favorites]
A Grouper Captain heads a school of fish.
A Groupon Captain oversees merchant discounts.
A Grout Captain manages your bathroom tiles.
A Groot Captain is when a tree-like movie character gets a promotion.
A Group Capstan is used to pull many ropes at once.
"Gruel Captain" is the nickname for the head cook in an orphanage.
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:31 PM on June 15 [5 favorites]
An Octopus IRL, we are kindred. I got together with a woman in 1993 and a few years later he transitioned. It really challenged my lesbian identity! But we had a lot of good, even great, years. Broke up after 29 years together but it was a good run.
posted by Well I never at 4:12 PM on June 17 [1 favorite]
posted by Well I never at 4:12 PM on June 17 [1 favorite]
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posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:34 AM on June 14 [2 favorites]