Shit's on Fire, Yo!

June 14, 2024 9:29 PM

[two hours, SLYT] From a talk presented at https://cackalackycon.org/, professional physical pentester Deviant Ollam explains fire codes and fire safety systems (such as fire doors and sprinkler systems).

A theme in the talk is looking and sounding like you belong somewhere you don't; however, there is plenty of interesting information about egress and exits, fire safety systems and fire codes.

Previously on Metafilter, Elevators

Other videos in the same vein from Deviant Ollam: Also elevators, and Keys, with Howard Payne, and Doors

posted by Cat_Examiner (8 comments total)

Just FYI, Deviant was banned from a security conference I worked at for perving on me, not only behind closed doors and in front of other staff, where we perhaps could have done damage control, but also While On Stage In Front Of Everyone Including My Boss while giving a lockpick seminar sponsored by our conference. It was highly unprofessional.

His work seems like it's still solid. But we went from being friendly colleagues to 'he's not allowed to talk to me without my express permission first' so fast it gave me whiplash. Really, given his handle, (and our industry), maybe we should have expected he'd have boundary issues, but truly, none of us could have expected The Sex Me Speech, as we all called it later..

Anyway. This was awhile ago. YMMV. Go forth. Pick locks.

If you're looking into getting into lockpicking, we're in a golden age of options. For that magic mix of beginner cheap and solid quality, Sparrows sells great starter picks in both Europe and N. America, as well as dependable practice locks, some of which are transparent, to better allow you to see what each pin is doing. (I often use these when teaching my own workshops).

A great thing about this hobby is that it costs very little. In fact, you don't even need a full kit when starting, just a few hooks, some rakes, and a tensioner, all of which you can get individually for about $15 total if you search online.

If you find all this interesting, I've heard good things about the folks over at r/lockpicking, though note their focus is locksport and not, say, urbex or other recreational breaking and entering.
posted by foxtongue at 10:30 PM on June 14 [26 favorites]

I don't think I'll watch it all - it's funny how it starts the way he's seated almost like a lock - I can see hints foxtonge. I read Alien* [youtube 30mins]a while back and many of these people seem to have boundary issues - I also see this with irl acquantances who are in this sphere too - I can see how pentesting could lead to that if you don't stay aware.

Thirty jobs ago I worked on large sites where management refused to give us keys (go figure) .. and the rest of the team seemed to have criminal backgrounds, so an interesting time, to the point where I was working out new ways to bypass building security. Locks, gates, lift-arms, keypads ... only stop people who behave. It really helped when I became a security guard.

*Breaking and Entering: The Extraordinary Story of a Hacker Called 'Alien'.
posted by unearthed at 2:25 AM on June 15 [1 favorite]

I have not yet watched it. Does it explain why elevators have "Door close/open" buttons?

From my experience they are to be used when the car is in "fireman's service" mode; doors do not open automatically when you reach a floor because you want to first test for heat (by holding the back of your hand to the door). Once fully opened they stay open until you press "door close" (so you don't get trapped on the floor). They will, however, close automatically if, when first opened, they do not open all the way. This way, if you get a face full of flames and smoke, you can let go of the "open" button and the doors will close back up.
posted by Ayn Marx at 4:19 AM on June 15 [1 favorite]

To answer Ayn Marx's question, my experience is that the "open door" button always seems to work when the door is beginning to close. It's a great way to keep the door open for someone running for the elevator. Yes, you could just throw your arm out and hold back the rubber gasket to the door or such, but the button is the more civilized method. There often is a bell that sounds if the door is open for too long, however. This button, again, only seems to work this way in regular service. I've never tried to stop an elevator between floors and see if it does anything then.

The "door close" button is a different matter. I don't think they often do anything without the elevator being in "fireman's service". I have been in elevators in my past, loading equipment to take to a higher level, where the doors do appear to respond to a "door close" button press.

This was all in the Midwest of the USA. Maybe elevators are configured differently due to age of the building and location?

I'm looking forward to watching this. I am disheartened to hear that this guy demonstrated perv tendencies in the past. Lord, why do some people not learn of boundaries from their mom & dad?
posted by DB_S at 6:30 AM on June 15

I can see hints foxtonge
tigrrrlily and I were watching one of his videos just the other day, and I got bad vibes from him. I know there's a personality type there that can do great presentations and yet leave me thinking I don't trust them (strange, considering his line of work, I know).

I also worry about privilege and the security arena. Lockpicking and such are one thing, but impersonation and con work has to be a lot easier for someone looking like him. And the consequences of a failed attempt are a lot lower (he's less likely to have a violent security/police confrontation). Is he even aware of the issue?

Regardless, as for the actual content: brilliant stuff, but tigrrrlily was worried about the implications of specifically exploiting life-saving regulations. What's the actual solution to such a situation? As he's pointed out, you need exit doors so people can escape a fire - those codes were developed specifically to ensure safety - so you can't eliminate them.

Maybe people in the pen test business can explain it for me - added electronics? Apparently he also shows how to talk your way past card-reader-equipped guards. Bigger perimeter, more layers to the Swiss cheese?
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 6:49 AM on June 15 [2 favorites]

The "door close" button is a different matter. I don't think they often do anything without the elevator being in "fireman's service".

A 'Fireman service' style elevator mode is also used by movers, at least in my building, and the elevator will stay on the floor it is left on unless buttons are pressed and held. The elevator door stays open in this mode until someone presses door close and only then can the elevator be told to move with a press & hold for the destination floor number
posted by srboisvert at 7:56 AM on June 15 [2 favorites]

A guy servicing the elevators where I work told me that the "door close" buttons in elevators usually aren't wired to anything.
posted by neuron at 9:59 AM on June 15

Flight Hardware, I also do physical pentesting and the parts where social engineering are key do look Very Different for me, a goofy rainbow-haired lady, than for the majority of my colleagues, who are mostly guys you might pick out of a lineup for being Most Likely To Know How To Use PowerShell. Enough so I often need entirely different sets of ruses, as well climb through windows more often. It can be difficult to be taken seriously. On the plus side, I'm 99% sure I would face fewer consequences if I were caught because the sexist standard of "women are harmless" is something I can leverage and they cannot.

I've had a good conversation with Tarah, Deviant's wife, about this. She's a powerhouse, so I have no doubt he's since been made aware of the disparities. She's a big advocate for femmes in tech, btw, and even put out a book on the topic called Women In Tech: Take Your Career to the Next Level with Practical Advice and Inspiring Stories. I haven't read it myself, but I've heard good things.
posted by foxtongue at 10:17 AM on June 15 [4 favorites]