You got your Euro in my English!
June 18, 2024 8:08 AM Subscribe
The European Union has twenty-four official languages, but, according to Jeremy Gardner, a senior translator at the European Court of Auditors, the real number is closer to twenty-three and a half. Gardner has compiled an anthology of offenses committed in what has come to be known as Eurenglish—an interoffice dialect that, as he writes in “A Brief List of Misused English Terms in E.U. Publications,” relies upon “words that do not exist or are relatively unknown to native English speakers outside the E.U. institutions.” Lauren Collins for the New Yorker (2013). A PDF version of Jeremy Gardner's report from 2016 is available here: "words that do not exist or are relatively unknown to native English speakers outside the EU
institutions and often even to standard spellcheckers/grammar checkers (‘planification’, ‘to precise’ or ‘telematics’ for example)"
Previously includes a link to this useful Mental Floss article.
Previously includes a link to this useful Mental Floss article.
Eurenglish: interesting, but not as much fun as Europanto.
posted by misteraitch at 8:22 AM on June 18 [1 favorite]
posted by misteraitch at 8:22 AM on June 18 [1 favorite]
This is absolutely a thing, although I've never fully articulated it to myself. Occasionally I read an EU (usually legal) document and the vocabulary and rhetoric seem to come from the most bizarre little hothouse of English--all the more bizarre because it's so bland.
posted by praemunire at 8:23 AM on June 18 [3 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 8:23 AM on June 18 [3 favorites]
That 2016 report slightly undermines itself. Firstly by insisting (probably rightly) that the only relevant default English usage that the EU should consider is the version written and spoken in the UK and Ireland but then not including anybody from Ireland when compiling his data, and then -- in his very first example -- insisting that 'action' cannot be used as a countable noun. I mean -- okay, I'm not wild about it either -- but ordinary business English lost this argument at least 35 years ago and it's long since leaked into vernacular and you need to let it go, my brother.
Twatting on at non-native speakers about things that are so marginal that the majority of native speakers don't care is... an odd thing to flex about.
I suspect that the other things we all notice (on preview - yes, things like that) are generally more tolerated because weirdly, in real life we're a bit less precious about this sort of thing than some other language-speakers.
Lastly as a matter of pedantry: the only reason the EU still produces official texts in English is that Malta chose it as its official language for these purposes. The UK is gone and Ireland's EU language vote went to Irish/Gaelige -- cynically, because of course if Malta had chosen Maltese we'd have to change that vote immediately in order to allow our own staff, population and representatives to function.
posted by genghis at 8:30 AM on June 18 [16 favorites]
Twatting on at non-native speakers about things that are so marginal that the majority of native speakers don't care is... an odd thing to flex about.
I suspect that the other things we all notice (on preview - yes, things like that) are generally more tolerated because weirdly, in real life we're a bit less precious about this sort of thing than some other language-speakers.
Lastly as a matter of pedantry: the only reason the EU still produces official texts in English is that Malta chose it as its official language for these purposes. The UK is gone and Ireland's EU language vote went to Irish/Gaelige -- cynically, because of course if Malta had chosen Maltese we'd have to change that vote immediately in order to allow our own staff, population and representatives to function.
posted by genghis at 8:30 AM on June 18 [16 favorites]
Reading this list as a Canadian federal government employee, lots of these terms are super familiar to me. I'm sure we have tons of others in the CanFedGov that come from our mix of English and French and are just silly.
posted by urbanlenny at 8:32 AM on June 18 [5 favorites]
posted by urbanlenny at 8:32 AM on June 18 [5 favorites]
I put "intervention" into this category. I first heard this usage when attending academic conferences in Europe, and it doesn't appear to mean anything like the word's actual English meaning which is, of course, when two or more people cooperate in an invention.
posted by 1adam12 at 8:39 AM on June 18
posted by 1adam12 at 8:39 AM on June 18
I've got a book on translation, Is That a Fish in Your Ear, that has a chapter on EU rules. What is interesting is that there is not a canonical version in one language and translations into other languages: the rule is considered canonical in every language it is published in.
posted by adamrice at 8:53 AM on June 18 [11 favorites]
It's an open secret that the EU also possesses an interlanguage for most practical uses in the corridors of the Berlaymont building, in the canteens and private meeting rooms—and it's English. However, it is definitely not the case that EU texts are first written in English and then translated. Things work in an altogether more interesting way. A panel or subcommittee meets to draft a regulation. It uses one of the four official working languages of the EU—German, French, English, Italian—but there are always other language drafters present. The first draft is argued over not only for content but also for how it is going to be expressed in the other working languages. The draft is then translated and the committee reconvenes with the drafters to smooth out difficulties and inconsistencies in the different versions. The drafters are indistinguishably language professionals and civil servants participating in the development of the substantive text of EU regulations. The back-and-forth movement of the draft between the committee and the drafting department produces, in the end, a text all consider to be equal in all its versions, and in that sense the "language fiction" of the EU's rule of parity is not fictional at all.It's not hard to see how some weird-ass constructions and word uses would emerge from this process.
posted by adamrice at 8:53 AM on June 18 [11 favorites]
The Future Language of the World Will Be Broken English
posted by Ayn Marx at 9:00 AM on June 18 [1 favorite]
Considering English as we currently know it basically got its start as a pidgin mashing up Germanic Old English and Romantic Norman French with a dash of Viking vocab and a faint sprinkling of administrative Latin, and then proceeded to travel the world for centuries plundering other languages for vocabulary, resulting in words seized from Hindi (jungle, sandal, bandana, pajamas, shampoo), Spanish (breeze, patio, plaza) and many many other languages finding their way into daily "proper" English use by native speakers, the idea that people are somehow committing offenses against English by continuing to add new constructions and vocabulary influenced by other languages is just hilarious to me.
If you don't understand that unceasing linguistic promiscuity is part of what makes English English, can you really claim to love English?
posted by BlueJae at 9:02 AM on June 18 [18 favorites]
If you don't understand that unceasing linguistic promiscuity is part of what makes English English, can you really claim to love English?
posted by BlueJae at 9:02 AM on June 18 [18 favorites]
If you don't understand that unceasing linguistic promiscuity is part of what makes English English, can you really claim to love English?
If you love EU jargonese, can you really claim to love language?
This is an instance where reading TFA might be enlightening.
posted by praemunire at 9:14 AM on June 18 [7 favorites]
If you love EU jargonese, can you really claim to love language?
This is an instance where reading TFA might be enlightening.
posted by praemunire at 9:14 AM on June 18 [7 favorites]
I love natural and constructed languages and this may be one or the other.
posted by clew at 9:22 AM on June 18 [2 favorites]
posted by clew at 9:22 AM on June 18 [2 favorites]
Meh, some of these are weird usages, but others of them, I'm like "no, I absolutely know a ton of people who use Agenda to mean 'diary' or 'day planner'."
posted by jacquilynne at 9:24 AM on June 18 [7 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 9:24 AM on June 18 [7 favorites]
Lauren: There are also international Englishes that are used in political and business contexts, EU English is known for being particularly quirky, I think.Lingthusiasm Episode 20: Speaking Canadian and Australian English in a British-American binary
Gretchen: Yeah, English as a lingua franca, where it’s everybody’s second language like in Europe, or with the UN, and you have a whole room full of English speakers who have a way of communicating with each other that has fewer idioms and fewer of the things that are difficult for non-native speakers, and then when the native speaker walks into the room suddenly it’s like they’re the one that’s having a hard time being understood because they’ve got this different access there.
posted by jomato at 9:37 AM on June 18 [6 favorites]
The drafters are indistinguishably language professionals and civil servants participating in the development of the substantive text of EU regulations.adamrice
Speaking of bizarre English usage, is this supposed to be "distinguished"? Or is it trying to say that the civil servants involved are indistinguishable from language professionals? If so it's a very odd construction. Perhaps “simultaneously” would work better if that’s their meaning.
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:46 AM on June 18 [4 favorites]
I work for an international company, and I'm personally charmed when words and idioms from other varieties of English gain a foothold. For example, using the phrase "I have a doubt" where a US-English speaker would say "I have a question" is a feature of English spoken in India, and I've heard it often enough now that it no longer sounds strange to me. I particularly like this one, because a similar phrase is used in Spanish ("tengo una duda"), so it feels like there's some cross-language synergy there.
I've also heard at least a couple different people say that we need to "prepone" a meeting, i.e., move it to an earlier time to avoid a conflict. At first I thought they were just playing with language to be funny, but I checked and it is indeed another feature of Indian English. And why not?! It's logical and useful!
posted by jomato at 9:55 AM on June 18 [17 favorites]
I've also heard at least a couple different people say that we need to "prepone" a meeting, i.e., move it to an earlier time to avoid a conflict. At first I thought they were just playing with language to be funny, but I checked and it is indeed another feature of Indian English. And why not?! It's logical and useful!
posted by jomato at 9:55 AM on June 18 [17 favorites]
I'm a terrible person. I want Georgia and Armenia to join the EU just to have more alphabets on the currency.
posted by ocschwar at 9:55 AM on June 18 [8 favorites]
posted by ocschwar at 9:55 AM on June 18 [8 favorites]
I think just remove that word entirely, and the sentence says the same thing... Mostly.
"both" would work, but simultaneous works as well.
posted by Windopaene at 9:56 AM on June 18
"both" would work, but simultaneous works as well.
posted by Windopaene at 9:56 AM on June 18
I put "intervention" into this category. I first heard this usage when attending academic conferences in Europe, and it doesn't appear to mean anything like the word's actual English meaningIt looks to me like the EU usage is adapted from how the term is used in statistics. Here's a random paper from the search results for "statistics intervention" as an example.
posted by jomato at 10:10 AM on June 18 [1 favorite]
It looks to me like the EU usage is adapted from how the term is used in statistics.
That usage appears to be a pretty standard definition - a medical intervention is when you start a new mode of treatment, you "intervene" in the disease process. But the usage I've heard means something more like "opinion" or "comment." As in, you raise your hand, stand up, make your observations, and when you sit down someone says, "Thank you, Dr. Birnbaum, for that intervention."
I wonder if this is another false friend, because it kinda feels like it.
posted by 1adam12 at 10:22 AM on June 18 [4 favorites]
That usage appears to be a pretty standard definition - a medical intervention is when you start a new mode of treatment, you "intervene" in the disease process. But the usage I've heard means something more like "opinion" or "comment." As in, you raise your hand, stand up, make your observations, and when you sit down someone says, "Thank you, Dr. Birnbaum, for that intervention."
I wonder if this is another false friend, because it kinda feels like it.
posted by 1adam12 at 10:22 AM on June 18 [4 favorites]
Bet they call pineapples ananas, but I don't see 'em on the list.
On the other hand, planification for planning? Please.
posted by Rash at 10:28 AM on June 18
On the other hand, planification for planning? Please.
posted by Rash at 10:28 AM on June 18
I put "intervention" into this category. I first heard this usage when attending academic conferences in Europe, and it doesn't appear to mean anything like the word's actual English meaning which is, of course, when two or more people cooperate in an invention
Intervention does not mean that? Are you joshing?
posted by bq at 10:41 AM on June 18 [2 favorites]
Intervention does not mean that? Are you joshing?
posted by bq at 10:41 AM on June 18 [2 favorites]
That was interesting, thanks. I liked the reference to the badger signs. I think I may have gone too far down the local government language path, as some of these seem fine, or at least comprehensible, to me. Someone in the organisation I am working for referred to me as a "contract agent" the other day. And I thought "valorise" did mean to attribute value to, though his example ("how could the results of the work of the agency be best valorised") does sound rather archaic. Other examples are of course needlessly baffling. I fear he is shouting into the wind in attempting to change any of this. But it does read as if he had fun (with an element of frustration) putting it together, so that's something.
Am I missing something with the reference to Mountbatten - I'm not aware he had an interest in grammar? Does the writer mean to use him as an example of a martinet?
posted by paduasoy at 10:51 AM on June 18 [2 favorites]
Am I missing something with the reference to Mountbatten - I'm not aware he had an interest in grammar? Does the writer mean to use him as an example of a martinet?
posted by paduasoy at 10:51 AM on June 18 [2 favorites]
Not joking: I reject and am offended by all the derogatory references (in this thread and some of the links posted in it) to English varieties not labelled as the 'standard' in the US or UK, as 'broken', 'jargonese', 'pidgin', ''weird-ass constructions', etc.
English is spoken by 3 times more ESL speakers than 'native' ones. The conceit that somehow all the myriad forms of English are inferior to standard US or UK ones is insular, ignorant, and a little bit racist.
Open your eyes and ears. You might learn something.
posted by signal at 10:52 AM on June 18 [13 favorites]
English is spoken by 3 times more ESL speakers than 'native' ones. The conceit that somehow all the myriad forms of English are inferior to standard US or UK ones is insular, ignorant, and a little bit racist.
Open your eyes and ears. You might learn something.
posted by signal at 10:52 AM on June 18 [13 favorites]
'broken', 'jargonese', 'pidgin', ''weird-ass constructions', etc.
Apart from "weird ass" I don't think any of those terms are especially derogatory to speakers. "Pidgin" and "jargonese" both describe a languages by their use. One is simplified, hybrid construction to facilitate construction between people who do not reliably share a pre-existing language. "Jargonese" is the development of a shared second language in a field or organization. And "broken" is the way a lot of people speak second languages in which they lack fluency. Missing bits of vocabulary or knowing words but lacking a full enough knowledge of syntax to reliably convey meaning to a fluent speaker.
I don't think there is anything wrong with any of those things.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:24 AM on June 18 [4 favorites]
Apart from "weird ass" I don't think any of those terms are especially derogatory to speakers. "Pidgin" and "jargonese" both describe a languages by their use. One is simplified, hybrid construction to facilitate construction between people who do not reliably share a pre-existing language. "Jargonese" is the development of a shared second language in a field or organization. And "broken" is the way a lot of people speak second languages in which they lack fluency. Missing bits of vocabulary or knowing words but lacking a full enough knowledge of syntax to reliably convey meaning to a fluent speaker.
I don't think there is anything wrong with any of those things.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:24 AM on June 18 [4 favorites]
Oh, I definitely read the article before writing my comment, praemunire. All the way to the end, in fact, where Jeremy Gardner, the translator lamenting what the article termed "offenses against English," struggled to order a glass of wine properly in French. That was certainly my favorite part of the piece, though I think your assumption that I had not read the article suggests the author was perhaps too subtle in making her intended point with its inclusion.
signal addressed the real heart of the issue with Gardner's argument.
posted by BlueJae at 11:25 AM on June 18 [3 favorites]
signal addressed the real heart of the issue with Gardner's argument.
posted by BlueJae at 11:25 AM on June 18 [3 favorites]
The Manwich Horror, "broken English" absolutely has a recognized derogatory connotation.
posted by BlueJae at 11:30 AM on June 18 [6 favorites]
posted by BlueJae at 11:30 AM on June 18 [6 favorites]
I work for the US corporatesubsidiary of an EU company. We used to call it "globish" which was a version of English most corporate non english-from-birth-speakers understood with each other and only got messed up when US/UK/AUS people showed up.
The word I really hate? "Cascade" as in "Please cascade this information down your chain of command"
posted by atomicstone at 11:32 AM on June 18 [5 favorites]
The word I really hate? "Cascade" as in "Please cascade this information down your chain of command"
posted by atomicstone at 11:32 AM on June 18 [5 favorites]
broken English" absolutely has a recognized derogatory connotation.
I have used the term often to describe my own spoken French. It never seemed to carry much venom to me. I'll make a point of trying to remove it from my vocabular when speaking of others though. Thanks for the education.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:34 AM on June 18 [2 favorites]
I have used the term often to describe my own spoken French. It never seemed to carry much venom to me. I'll make a point of trying to remove it from my vocabular when speaking of others though. Thanks for the education.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:34 AM on June 18 [2 favorites]
knowing words but lacking a full enough knowledge of syntax to reliably convey meaning to a fluent speaker.
this nitpick perhaps, but "broken" (in colloquial sense) not necessarily mean cannot convey meaning! stereotypical "caveman" (or Cookie Monster?) speech itself form of broken English that gets meaning across... here "brokenness" from fact that meaning conveyed but in form recognizably foreign to speaker.
posted by the tartare yolk at 11:42 AM on June 18 [3 favorites]
this nitpick perhaps, but "broken" (in colloquial sense) not necessarily mean cannot convey meaning! stereotypical "caveman" (or Cookie Monster?) speech itself form of broken English that gets meaning across... here "brokenness" from fact that meaning conveyed but in form recognizably foreign to speaker.
posted by the tartare yolk at 11:42 AM on June 18 [3 favorites]
I want to add, I absolutely agree with the basic idea that documents meant to be read by the public should avoid using obscure or overly technical language and should generally be written in such a way as to be easily understood by most speakers of the language that a the document is written in. But a person can make that argument effectively without blaming "foreign influence" on English. Many, many writers of government documents worldwide have struggled in various languages to get out of the habit of using terminology that is understood well inside their own agency but bewilders the general public. US government document writers who are often monolingual native American English speakers manage to be baffling on a regular basis without any EU interference.
posted by BlueJae at 11:53 AM on June 18 [4 favorites]
posted by BlueJae at 11:53 AM on June 18 [4 favorites]
Broken does pretty clearly mean wrong, at least in standard English ;)
A guy I knew started his first assignment as an EU advisor in an Eastern European country in the 90s with the French version of schoolboy English and supplemented it by pronouncing French words in (what he considered) an English accent for more technical infrastructure terms. Several months later, the guys he was advising admitted over a beer that they had a French dictionary under the table in meetings with him...
I actually speak a bit of French and it helps with interpreting EUnglish a hell of a lot. Like half that list is just French people using French words.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 12:02 PM on June 18 [6 favorites]
A guy I knew started his first assignment as an EU advisor in an Eastern European country in the 90s with the French version of schoolboy English and supplemented it by pronouncing French words in (what he considered) an English accent for more technical infrastructure terms. Several months later, the guys he was advising admitted over a beer that they had a French dictionary under the table in meetings with him...
I actually speak a bit of French and it helps with interpreting EUnglish a hell of a lot. Like half that list is just French people using French words.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 12:02 PM on June 18 [6 favorites]
What are you fighting for?
Say it in broken English.
posted by Zumbador at 12:49 PM on June 18 [3 favorites]
Say it in broken English.
posted by Zumbador at 12:49 PM on June 18 [3 favorites]
"prepone" a meeting, i.e., move it to an earlier time to avoid a conflict
And to "cornpone" a meeting is to all speak in an exaggerated "southern hick" accent.
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:58 PM on June 18 [1 favorite]
And to "cornpone" a meeting is to all speak in an exaggerated "southern hick" accent.
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:58 PM on June 18 [1 favorite]
I take your point re: criticism of non-standard English, signal, but with all due respect to my fellow government functionaries, this is not where I would try to establish that particular moral high ground. Government bureaucratese is its own special brand of non-standardness and not one that we should be striving to protect.
posted by jacquilynne at 1:01 PM on June 18 [1 favorite]
posted by jacquilynne at 1:01 PM on June 18 [1 favorite]
Europanto
Like regular European languages, but with funny costumes, and the audience occasionally yelling
posted by zamboni at 1:03 PM on June 18 [1 favorite]
Like regular European languages, but with funny costumes, and the audience occasionally yelling
he's behind you!
posted by zamboni at 1:03 PM on June 18 [1 favorite]
I actually speak a bit of French and it helps with interpreting EUnglish a hell of a lot. Like half that list is just French people using French words.
Most of them I would say. These gallicisms are due to the historical presence of many Francophones (French and Belgian ones) in European institutions, and it would be interesting to see if they predate the accession in 1973 of the UK and Ireland to the European Communities. Using actually for currently is common to French, Spanish and Italian speakers (though I'm sure that the English meaning is creeping into French these days). Also, formal French uses permettre (to allow, to permit, to enable) a lot, even when it's not really necessary, so the verb (with its "to" construction) ends up in English texts written by Francophones.
That said, using "bovine, ovine, caprine, and porcine" instead of "cattle, sheep, goats, and pigs" is there to make sure that the terms apply to the right critters. For non-native anglophones, the scientific terms are less ambiguous than the vernacular ones, which is important in such legal texts, otherwise some cunning folks will start abusing linguistic loopholes. If one say mouton (sheep) in French, it may only refer to the male sheep, not ewes and lambs. Likewise, goat (chèvre) refers by default in French to female goats, not males (boucs) and kids (chevreaux). Buffaloes (who produce mozzarella in Italy) are bovine but not cattle, boars are porcine but not pigs, etc.
posted by elgilito at 1:05 PM on June 18 [10 favorites]
Most of them I would say. These gallicisms are due to the historical presence of many Francophones (French and Belgian ones) in European institutions, and it would be interesting to see if they predate the accession in 1973 of the UK and Ireland to the European Communities. Using actually for currently is common to French, Spanish and Italian speakers (though I'm sure that the English meaning is creeping into French these days). Also, formal French uses permettre (to allow, to permit, to enable) a lot, even when it's not really necessary, so the verb (with its "to" construction) ends up in English texts written by Francophones.
That said, using "bovine, ovine, caprine, and porcine" instead of "cattle, sheep, goats, and pigs" is there to make sure that the terms apply to the right critters. For non-native anglophones, the scientific terms are less ambiguous than the vernacular ones, which is important in such legal texts, otherwise some cunning folks will start abusing linguistic loopholes. If one say mouton (sheep) in French, it may only refer to the male sheep, not ewes and lambs. Likewise, goat (chèvre) refers by default in French to female goats, not males (boucs) and kids (chevreaux). Buffaloes (who produce mozzarella in Italy) are bovine but not cattle, boars are porcine but not pigs, etc.
posted by elgilito at 1:05 PM on June 18 [10 favorites]
Can confirm that I claim sanctuary hits the nail on the head, the words listed are overwhelmingly French business / procedural terms shifted to English false or near false friends, sometimes with a part of speech change tacked on.
Source: an ongoing 7 month jobhunt involving a depressing amount of close reading job posts and writing / rewriting CVs and cover letters to try to get past HR LLM driven auto filter screening in both languages.
posted by protorp at 1:08 PM on June 18 [6 favorites]
Source: an ongoing 7 month jobhunt involving a depressing amount of close reading job posts and writing / rewriting CVs and cover letters to try to get past HR LLM driven auto filter screening in both languages.
posted by protorp at 1:08 PM on June 18 [6 favorites]
jacquilynne: Government bureaucratese is its own special brand of non-standardness and not one that we should be striving to protect.
I'm not protecting anything—I'm pushing back against people who think of themselves as speaking the prestige variant of a language disparaging and othering the way other people speak, especially people considered as less valuable because they don't participate in the prestige culture.
posted by signal at 1:10 PM on June 18 [1 favorite]
I'm not protecting anything—I'm pushing back against people who think of themselves as speaking the prestige variant of a language disparaging and othering the way other people speak, especially people considered as less valuable because they don't participate in the prestige culture.
posted by signal at 1:10 PM on June 18 [1 favorite]
The minor de-rail on the connotations of "broken English" remind me of a spat/exchange between a judge and performers during this year's Vidbir, Ukraine's selection show for the Eurovision. A band performed a song titled "Slavic English" which was intended as a loving tribute to common language of Eastern European artists promoting their work outside their home region. The judge felt like it was a pejorative mockery that would reinforce the perceptions of Eastern Europeans as backwards and under educated.
For me, the song mostly just reminded me of how shockingly proficient most European artists and performers are in multiple languages, so I was kinda surprised it was received so negatively by some.
posted by midmarch snowman at 1:11 PM on June 18 [1 favorite]
For me, the song mostly just reminded me of how shockingly proficient most European artists and performers are in multiple languages, so I was kinda surprised it was received so negatively by some.
posted by midmarch snowman at 1:11 PM on June 18 [1 favorite]
That said, using "bovine, ovine, caprine, and porcine" instead of "cattle, sheep, goats, and pigs" is there to make sure that the terms apply to the right critters.
Thecat goat may really be thrown amongst the pigeons sheep as and when policy has to be drafted to deal with mutton.
posted by protorp at 1:23 PM on June 18
The
posted by protorp at 1:23 PM on June 18
speaking the prestige variant of a language disparaging and othering the way other people speak, especially people considered as less valuable because they don't participate in the prestige culture.
What in the name of God are you talking about? We're literally discussing the language used by powerful bureaucracies and other actors within one of the richest and most powerful governments in the world, based in the West, composed of former multiple imperial powers. This is a prestige dialect, used by a prestige culture.
This is something that drives me nuts about Mefi sometimes: just because there is a generally correct leftist principle that covers the majority of situations in which a topic might come up doesn't mean it is universally applicable! "Jargon" is not the equivalent of "broken" in moral valence!
posted by praemunire at 1:52 PM on June 18 [6 favorites]
What in the name of God are you talking about? We're literally discussing the language used by powerful bureaucracies and other actors within one of the richest and most powerful governments in the world, based in the West, composed of former multiple imperial powers. This is a prestige dialect, used by a prestige culture.
This is something that drives me nuts about Mefi sometimes: just because there is a generally correct leftist principle that covers the majority of situations in which a topic might come up doesn't mean it is universally applicable! "Jargon" is not the equivalent of "broken" in moral valence!
posted by praemunire at 1:52 PM on June 18 [6 favorites]
Many, many writers of government documents worldwide have struggled in various languages to get out of the habit of using terminology that is understood well inside their own agency but bewilders the general public. US government document writers who are often monolingual native American English speakers manage to be baffling on a regular basis without any EU interference.
This is absolutely the case (down to "jargonese"), but I think one can't overlook the actual language/dialect-speaker community here, and what effect their divergent linguistic backgrounds might be having.
posted by praemunire at 1:55 PM on June 18
This is absolutely the case (down to "jargonese"), but I think one can't overlook the actual language/dialect-speaker community here, and what effect their divergent linguistic backgrounds might be having.
posted by praemunire at 1:55 PM on June 18
Ooooh, I'm a bilingual person from Europe, I love linguistic quirks like this, and I'm probably going to read the whole document. I particularly enjoy figuring out where some of these expressions came from (in some cases Polish uses the same "incorrect" form, like using "actual" to mean "current", and I assume that other languages have similar false friend issues). I find it interesting to deconstruct specific turns of phrase that ESL speakers have.
I knew that this was going to be spicy when I saw the footnote right at the start that said
Anyway, I'm only on A, and I've lost it at the necromancer job ad ("animate"). I think "actor" as in "state actor" has now entered the vernacular (at least among cybersecurity people) and it's too late to get rid of it, but "actorness" is pretty funny.
(My favourite false friend goes in the opposite direction: if you go to Poland, please remember to translate "preservative" as "konserwant", because "prezerwatywa" means something entirely different.)
posted by confluency at 2:20 PM on June 18 [6 favorites]
I knew that this was going to be spicy when I saw the footnote right at the start that said
1 By ‘correct’ I mean in terms of UK and Irish native-speaker norms.I mean... I understand that this is a European conversation, but I think it's extremely funny that a variant of English which is widely understood worldwide is dismissed on the first page. Why should people from continental Europe prefer UK English over US English, given that the UK is no longer in the EU? (I guess because it's the preferred variant of Irish people.)
Anyway, I'm only on A, and I've lost it at the necromancer job ad ("animate"). I think "actor" as in "state actor" has now entered the vernacular (at least among cybersecurity people) and it's too late to get rid of it, but "actorness" is pretty funny.
(My favourite false friend goes in the opposite direction: if you go to Poland, please remember to translate "preservative" as "konserwant", because "prezerwatywa" means something entirely different.)
posted by confluency at 2:20 PM on June 18 [6 favorites]
I actually speak a bit of French and it helps with interpreting EUnglish a hell of a lot. Like half that list is just French people using French words.
I've worked on quite a few EU research projects and every so often we get a word on English slides which looks English, but leaves me baffled, and it pretty much always turns out that someone has stick -ity or -ition on to the end of a word that sounds like it is probably the same in French and English, but isn't.
I wonder whether Portuguese people ever do something similar, since so many Portuguese words that end -cao are very similar to their translations with -tion on the end in English.
posted by biffa at 2:46 PM on June 18
I've worked on quite a few EU research projects and every so often we get a word on English slides which looks English, but leaves me baffled, and it pretty much always turns out that someone has stick -ity or -ition on to the end of a word that sounds like it is probably the same in French and English, but isn't.
I wonder whether Portuguese people ever do something similar, since so many Portuguese words that end -cao are very similar to their translations with -tion on the end in English.
posted by biffa at 2:46 PM on June 18
praemunire: This is something that drives me nuts about Mefi sometimes: just because there is a generally correct leftist principle–
Cool, cool. My pet peeve is when the US and UK are assumed as the unmarked, superior, and de facto POVs.
Also, my principle doesn't come from a leftist perspective, but rather as an ESL speaker.
posted by signal at 3:08 PM on June 18 [4 favorites]
Cool, cool. My pet peeve is when the US and UK are assumed as the unmarked, superior, and de facto POVs.
Also, my principle doesn't come from a leftist perspective, but rather as an ESL speaker.
posted by signal at 3:08 PM on June 18 [4 favorites]
What in the name of God are you talking about? We're literally discussing the language used by powerful bureaucracies and other actors within one of the richest and most powerful governments in the world, based in the West, composed of former multiple imperial powers.Bureaucratic jargon is only part of what's happening here. The other part is alluded to in the quote for the Lingthusiasm podcast that I shared above: people who speak English as a second (or third, or fourth, ...) language converging on a way to communicate with one another. This is somthing that non-rich, non-powerful people around the world do. If you say that the English spoken by European diplomats is "broken", then it seems natural to extrapolate that into a statement that any person who speaks English in a way that wouldn't be considered a correct version of some rich country's dialect is speaking "broken" English. I think that's the sentiment that people are reacting to.
That said, it seems accurate to say that some parts of EU-English are not correct UK-English in the sense that most speakers of UK-English wouldn't say it that way. Maybe in the future documents that are created in EU-English will have to be localized into UK-English to make them unambiguous to UK-English speakers. If EU-English and UK-English are both serving a useful purpose, then that seems fine?
posted by jomato at 3:13 PM on June 18 [1 favorite]
Reading Gardner's list, it looks like a number of gallicisms he complains about are used not just because the EU folks don't speak the King's English, but also because these terms correspond to well-defined concepts that are widely used in French with no exact match in English (for once!). Transposer has been used in French since the Middle Ages and carries an idea of movement and change absent from To incorporate. Valoriser is another staple of French economic language and an extremely useful one (you take a thing of little value, do something with it, and it becomes valuable) and none of the alternatives provided by Gardner convey the same meaning, and some would be used in contexts where valoriser is routinely found in French. He also mentions Third country (Pays Tiers), where Tiers is also an old and very practical concept in French: there are two parties that are engaged in a common activity, and a third one, the tiers or tierce (if feminine) that is not part of it. Tiers is not Troisième, but the English language only knows Third. Tiers was famously used by French demographer Alfred Sauvy when he coined the term Tiers Monde in 1952, translated in English as Third World. This was also a direct allusion to the Tiers Etat of Ancien Régime France. In the EU context, it's a very practical shorthand to describe the countries that are not part of the group is discussed in the text (typically the Member States). There's nothing ambiguous about this.
posted by elgilito at 3:50 PM on June 18 [18 favorites]
posted by elgilito at 3:50 PM on June 18 [18 favorites]
Earlier today I read an email from a non-native-English-speaker coworkers that used the word "majuscules" when referring to capital letters. Which is a correct usage, but it's not a word that native English speakers (American ones, at least) would typically use in everyday communication. Heck, I have a fairly large vocabulary and I didn't know this word even existed! I found it fascinating, especially in light of this thread.
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:00 PM on June 18 [2 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:00 PM on June 18 [2 favorites]
I mean, English as a whole is largely French vocabulary grafted onto German grammar. I have no idea why some folks are whining about a few more?
“English is the result of Norman men-at-arms attempting to pick up Saxon barmaids and is no more legitimate than any of the other results.”posted by adrienneleigh at 4:18 PM on June 18 [8 favorites]
H. Beam Piper
that used the word "majuscules"
My apologies, that should have been "who used the word" (or "that contained the word", referring to the email). My coworker is a person, not a thing! So much for my native command of English...
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:56 PM on June 18 [1 favorite]
My apologies, that should have been "who used the word" (or "that contained the word", referring to the email). My coworker is a person, not a thing! So much for my native command of English...
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:56 PM on June 18 [1 favorite]
Orientate? I've heard that one coming from NGOs across the pond and it drives me nuts.
"Our future models are orientated towards a just transition."
posted by idiotking at 6:34 PM on June 18
"Our future models are orientated towards a just transition."
posted by idiotking at 6:34 PM on June 18
Well I guess if adding more French words into English isn't a big deal, it should be ok to add more English words into French...
posted by coberh at 7:06 PM on June 18 [2 favorites]
posted by coberh at 7:06 PM on June 18 [2 favorites]
Well I guess if adding more French words into English isn't a big deal, it should be ok to add more English words into French...
It's fine with me! And generally fine with French people, too; L'Académie française has largely lost the battle for the purity of the French language. Younger French people are a lot more likely to say "laptop" than "ordinateur portable", for instance.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:25 PM on June 18 [2 favorites]
It's fine with me! And generally fine with French people, too; L'Académie française has largely lost the battle for the purity of the French language. Younger French people are a lot more likely to say "laptop" than "ordinateur portable", for instance.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:25 PM on June 18 [2 favorites]
Jargon is important and useful, it's only a problem when it escapes containment.
If EU bureaucrats adopt a lot of vocabulary into English from false cognates in other languages in a technical fashion that helps facilitate their ability to communicate efficiently with one another, that's great. More power to them. If they're releasing public-facing documents in English, then absolutely the jargon should be stripped out to make it readable for the majority of anglophones, native speakers or otherwise. Which means also using simple language for clarity and accessibility to people with lower literacy levels. But that should be true regardless of whether they're releasing documents in English, French, or any other EU language, right? Highly technical, legalistic language generally isn't useful for public communication.
I mean, I'm a scientist. You want to talk about jargon and truly bizarre uses of English, just read any paper in my field. Native and non-native speakers are equal offenders there.
posted by biogeo at 7:27 PM on June 18 [7 favorites]
If EU bureaucrats adopt a lot of vocabulary into English from false cognates in other languages in a technical fashion that helps facilitate their ability to communicate efficiently with one another, that's great. More power to them. If they're releasing public-facing documents in English, then absolutely the jargon should be stripped out to make it readable for the majority of anglophones, native speakers or otherwise. Which means also using simple language for clarity and accessibility to people with lower literacy levels. But that should be true regardless of whether they're releasing documents in English, French, or any other EU language, right? Highly technical, legalistic language generally isn't useful for public communication.
I mean, I'm a scientist. You want to talk about jargon and truly bizarre uses of English, just read any paper in my field. Native and non-native speakers are equal offenders there.
posted by biogeo at 7:27 PM on June 18 [7 favorites]
EU English ("Euro English") was discussed in a 2015 episode of The Allusionist (transcript).
The point that documents ostensibly written for an Irish/UK (Maltese, as of 2024?) audience should use Irish/UK English, and not EU English, seems pretty good to me. There were entries in the 2016 report where, if I (American English speaker with some fluency in UK English) read them, I would either find a different meaning than intended ("so-called" to mean "named" and not "inaccurately named" or "actual" to mean "current") or would be totally lost ("animate" to mean something like "lead (a team)" or "articulate" to mean... "cooperate," sometimes?)
This does not mean that EU English is "wrong," only that in official EU documents it is likely to be misunderstood by the ostensible target audience.
That said, the report's author tries to claim that certain words do not have meanings that they actually have ("valorise" — "valorize" in my heathen dialect — which has both the author's claimed meaning and the EU English meaning, or "concerning" to mean "with regard to"), or that certain constructs are ungrammatical when they sound perfectly fine to my ears ("with the aim to" instead of "with the aim of") — though it is possible that this is just my dialect coincidentally matching EU English. In a few cases the author's suggested replacement is less precise ("ovine/bovine/porcine/caprine," as noted by other commenters).
As a rule, anyone who gets upset enough about others' use of language to write a prescriptivist document about it will complain about both constructs that are likely to cause confusion and constructs that are perfectly comprehensible and in wide use.
posted by reventlov at 7:48 PM on June 18 [3 favorites]
The point that documents ostensibly written for an Irish/UK (Maltese, as of 2024?) audience should use Irish/UK English, and not EU English, seems pretty good to me. There were entries in the 2016 report where, if I (American English speaker with some fluency in UK English) read them, I would either find a different meaning than intended ("so-called" to mean "named" and not "inaccurately named" or "actual" to mean "current") or would be totally lost ("animate" to mean something like "lead (a team)" or "articulate" to mean... "cooperate," sometimes?)
This does not mean that EU English is "wrong," only that in official EU documents it is likely to be misunderstood by the ostensible target audience.
That said, the report's author tries to claim that certain words do not have meanings that they actually have ("valorise" — "valorize" in my heathen dialect — which has both the author's claimed meaning and the EU English meaning, or "concerning" to mean "with regard to"), or that certain constructs are ungrammatical when they sound perfectly fine to my ears ("with the aim to" instead of "with the aim of") — though it is possible that this is just my dialect coincidentally matching EU English. In a few cases the author's suggested replacement is less precise ("ovine/bovine/porcine/caprine," as noted by other commenters).
As a rule, anyone who gets upset enough about others' use of language to write a prescriptivist document about it will complain about both constructs that are likely to cause confusion and constructs that are perfectly comprehensible and in wide use.
posted by reventlov at 7:48 PM on June 18 [3 favorites]
Actorness is an incredible word.
Language is mostly a convention - what matters most is that people agree on the meaning. I'm not a language prescriptivist, but I think if the target audience is unable to understand what is being communicated, there's a problem. It might be fine if it's just internal jargonese among officials, but the moment these documents need to be available to people who have not been inducted into the system... Some of these examples are fairly understandable, if funny (and even present in corporate speak elsewhere), but if I came across something like "comitology", I would be utterly baffled.
posted by ndr at 11:11 PM on June 18 [1 favorite]
Language is mostly a convention - what matters most is that people agree on the meaning. I'm not a language prescriptivist, but I think if the target audience is unable to understand what is being communicated, there's a problem. It might be fine if it's just internal jargonese among officials, but the moment these documents need to be available to people who have not been inducted into the system... Some of these examples are fairly understandable, if funny (and even present in corporate speak elsewhere), but if I came across something like "comitology", I would be utterly baffled.
posted by ndr at 11:11 PM on June 18 [1 favorite]
Cool, cool. My pet peeve is when the US and UK are assumed as the unmarked, superior, and de facto POVs.
Also, my principle doesn't come from a leftist perspective, but rather as an ESL speaker.
I'm a UK native, so obviously US English is just a broken and obsolete variant by the descendents of traitors, shouldn't expect anything more!
I'm teasing, obviously. One of the things I do like about English is that adapability, that the loan words and evolution of the language in different places for different purposes reflects those people and their use, and that there are plenty of quirks even between different native speakers; I regularly speak to native US english and Australian english speakers in addition to British, and plenty of ESL students from various countries (mostly european), and the differences (especially where idiom gets involved) are usually interesting and sometimes hilarious. Even in British English, there are multiple regional variants that go beyond acccent to quite distinct vocab and meanings. I love that, despite our cultures coming from literally all around the globe, we have a viable lingua franca to work with that each has adopted as their own, is evolving in its own way, and we can yet still all work together and understand each other mostly without issues - we just to avoid things like what 'tabling' something means, for example. British English is no more superior than the others, it was always a changing, hybrid mutt of a language that gleefully stole from everyone else with abandon*, and continues to be so today.
I find the Euro bureaucracy jargon fascinating, as you can definitely see the influence from Francophones, and no doubt other languages too. Is it different in meaning in places to a native speaker of say, UK English? Yes, well it's jargon, that is usually the case. I had to transcribe medical discourse at one point as a non medical person, and frankly that barely qualified as English. What matters is that it works to let 27 countries communicate together, most of whom are not native speakers but adapt it to fit their needs. I love that.
* Yes, yes, just like the English...
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 11:33 PM on June 18 [3 favorites]
Also, my principle doesn't come from a leftist perspective, but rather as an ESL speaker.
I'm a UK native, so obviously US English is just a broken and obsolete variant by the descendents of traitors, shouldn't expect anything more!
I'm teasing, obviously. One of the things I do like about English is that adapability, that the loan words and evolution of the language in different places for different purposes reflects those people and their use, and that there are plenty of quirks even between different native speakers; I regularly speak to native US english and Australian english speakers in addition to British, and plenty of ESL students from various countries (mostly european), and the differences (especially where idiom gets involved) are usually interesting and sometimes hilarious. Even in British English, there are multiple regional variants that go beyond acccent to quite distinct vocab and meanings. I love that, despite our cultures coming from literally all around the globe, we have a viable lingua franca to work with that each has adopted as their own, is evolving in its own way, and we can yet still all work together and understand each other mostly without issues - we just to avoid things like what 'tabling' something means, for example. British English is no more superior than the others, it was always a changing, hybrid mutt of a language that gleefully stole from everyone else with abandon*, and continues to be so today.
I find the Euro bureaucracy jargon fascinating, as you can definitely see the influence from Francophones, and no doubt other languages too. Is it different in meaning in places to a native speaker of say, UK English? Yes, well it's jargon, that is usually the case. I had to transcribe medical discourse at one point as a non medical person, and frankly that barely qualified as English. What matters is that it works to let 27 countries communicate together, most of whom are not native speakers but adapt it to fit their needs. I love that.
* Yes, yes, just like the English...
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 11:33 PM on June 18 [3 favorites]
"prezerwatywa" means something entirely different.
Preservative enjoyed this meaning in English at one point too, if you read older literature.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:34 AM on June 19 [3 favorites]
Preservative enjoyed this meaning in English at one point too, if you read older literature.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:34 AM on June 19 [3 favorites]
I wonder whether Portuguese people ever do something similar, since so many Portuguese words that end -cao are very similar to their translations with -tion on the end in English.
My favorite is 'constipação' which is just the word for the common cold. The false friend here would be 'constipation' which in English commonly refers to quite another part of the body being stuffed up.
posted by vacapinta at 3:35 AM on June 19 [6 favorites]
My favorite is 'constipação' which is just the word for the common cold. The false friend here would be 'constipation' which in English commonly refers to quite another part of the body being stuffed up.
posted by vacapinta at 3:35 AM on June 19 [6 favorites]
I'm not sure these documents are any less accessible to the average English speaker than the legal texts produced by any other anglophone legal system? Unusual jargon and common words used as terms of art with different meanings is just par for the course for legalese, EU or otherwise.
posted by Dysk at 5:48 AM on June 19 [3 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 5:48 AM on June 19 [3 favorites]
Ironically, I've been slightly berated for using the term 'term of art' as the recipient didn't know what it meant, when I was trying to convert highly technical IT concepts into simplified language for general management, i.e. why buying this particular expensive widget box is absolutely essential or everything falls over. Thinking about it, I probably have at least 4 or 5 'versions' of English I speak myself; IT domain-specific language for working with my technical people, Manglement english for my fellow managers (who doesn't love a RACI matrix to help synergise our planning and minimise downtime, after all), layman english when I'm trying to translate something (from management or IT) into something comprehensible for normal people, reduced english for my kids (we have to get creative with synonyms at times!), and of course the private terms with my adult family and wife that mean something to us but would baffle others - "ubiquitous trifle", for just one example.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 6:31 AM on June 19 [2 favorites]
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 6:31 AM on June 19 [2 favorites]
The thing with the EU-English is that most of it is not produced by EU bureaucrats, but by the legion of people who work with EU institutions and services. These people, by far and large, are not native English speakers. For instance we just finished a big study for the EU commission: all the participants were either French or Italian, and the EU officers who oversaw the study were French, Belgian, Italian, Spanish etc. with no Irish or British person. And yes, the report contains about 120 instances of "allow" and 6 "valorise".
posted by elgilito at 8:10 AM on June 19 [2 favorites]
posted by elgilito at 8:10 AM on June 19 [2 favorites]
Intervention does not mean that? Are you joshing?
Yes.
Then I applaud your straight face, sir.
posted by bq at 8:57 AM on June 19 [1 favorite]
Yes.
Then I applaud your straight face, sir.
posted by bq at 8:57 AM on June 19 [1 favorite]
Further on my globish point, I received slides from an EU lawyer to mark up (I'm the US lawyer). Despite this french lawyer's incredible English (my ability in her language shit), she spelled "oak" as "aok" every time she used it. Super awkward to correct her.
posted by atomicstone at 11:18 AM on June 19
posted by atomicstone at 11:18 AM on June 19
my globish point
Which is much less messy than a globbish point.
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:44 PM on June 19
Which is much less messy than a globbish point.
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:44 PM on June 19
Absolutely No You-Know-What Yeah the 3-5 versions of English is something I think about a lot. Since we're talking about the Lingthusiasm podcast, I think it was there I heard the stories of UN and EU conferences where monolingual English speakers having the hardest time being understood because it was difficult to avoid a highly idiomatic version of their own local English in normal conversation.
For some reason this post and the "cursed units" post a little bit more recently has got me thinking a lot about working in ICUs. High acuity teams often don't require much communication sophistication, but on weeks on low-acuity or "step-down" teams, you spend a lot more time talking with patients/families, and I sometimes I feel like there's a two dimensional grid; one axis is 'simple short sentences' versus 'more natural, but possibly longer and idiomatic' sentences. The other axis is 'concrete ideas and limited vocabulary' versus 'highly specific and technical terms'. And for every point on that graph, there are people who are most comfortable with that version of English.
Anyway, I feel like there's a connection to TFA but I'm too tired to make it. Sorry y'all. I'm also the guy who visits Montreal, starts conversations in passable French and then panics and blurts out "Desole, necisito Ingles por favor" which is basically the worst option.
posted by midmarch snowman at 3:47 PM on June 19 [3 favorites]
For some reason this post and the "cursed units" post a little bit more recently has got me thinking a lot about working in ICUs. High acuity teams often don't require much communication sophistication, but on weeks on low-acuity or "step-down" teams, you spend a lot more time talking with patients/families, and I sometimes I feel like there's a two dimensional grid; one axis is 'simple short sentences' versus 'more natural, but possibly longer and idiomatic' sentences. The other axis is 'concrete ideas and limited vocabulary' versus 'highly specific and technical terms'. And for every point on that graph, there are people who are most comfortable with that version of English.
Anyway, I feel like there's a connection to TFA but I'm too tired to make it. Sorry y'all. I'm also the guy who visits Montreal, starts conversations in passable French and then panics and blurts out "Desole, necisito Ingles por favor" which is basically the worst option.
posted by midmarch snowman at 3:47 PM on June 19 [3 favorites]
I found the Mental Floss article more problematic than Gardner. As someone slowly becoming a tri-lingual US English speaker, teaching German and French students English, some of this strikes close to home. A number of my German students work for the German branch of a UK-Swedish and their language of business is German. Yet their English conversations break down into basically two groups: US English speakers and "other".
The "other" group is where there is often confusion and I try to navigate things by explaining things from a contextual perspective: what is the context of usage and how to translate into meaningful German (or, increasingly, French) and vice-versa. While the Mental Floss article steers in that direction. The thing is, I think it is less that government is driving this and more that it is corporations doing this.
When you include the Franglais and Danglish, Americans and Brits have much to atone.
posted by aldus_manutius at 7:56 AM on June 20
The "other" group is where there is often confusion and I try to navigate things by explaining things from a contextual perspective: what is the context of usage and how to translate into meaningful German (or, increasingly, French) and vice-versa. While the Mental Floss article steers in that direction. The thing is, I think it is less that government is driving this and more that it is corporations doing this.
When you include the Franglais and Danglish, Americans and Brits have much to atone.
posted by aldus_manutius at 7:56 AM on June 20
I bounced off the actual essay, but am hoping that someone has proposed terms from "law French" with a straight face.
posted by clew at 7:17 PM on June 21
posted by clew at 7:17 PM on June 21
« Older Republicans block cleanup until polluters get... | The Irish Unification of 2024* Newer »
posted by constraint at 8:20 AM on June 18 [4 favorites]