307 days; Israel's Torture Regime
August 8, 2024 10:30 AM Subscribe
Israel Accused of Running "Torture Camps" as Video Emerges of Soldiers Raping Palestinian Prisoner - Democracy Now covers the days-old story that's still not quite got any significant coverage in Western media: 'The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem has published a major new report documenting how the Israeli prison system has become "a network of torture camps," where physical, psychological and sexual abuse of Palestinian prisoners is normalized and routine. The report, titled "Welcome to Hell," collects the testimony of 55 Palestinians who were detained by Israeli authorities since October 7 and later released, almost all without charges. This comes as a group of U.N. experts condemned the widespread torture of Palestinians and as Israel's Channel 12 News aired shocking footage of Israeli soldiers sexually abusing a prisoner at the Sde Teiman army base, where thousands of detainees from Gaza are held. Sarit Michaeli, the international advocacy lead for B'Tselem, says the abuse in Israeli prisons is "systemic, ongoing and state-sanctioned," reflecting the cruelty and thirst for revenge among a growing number of Israelis. "They would like to have a completely open field in terms of what they can do to Palestinians," says Michaeli.'
CNN did cover the State Dept press pool that had reporters raising this directly though: State Dept calls for Israel to investigate allegations of ‘horrific’ sexual abuse of Palestinian detainees . Within: On Wednesday, Israeli lawmakers denounced the video leak. Israel’s far-right Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich called for an “immediate criminal investigation” to find out who leaked the video, which he described as having “hugely damaged Israel internationally.”
This will be the same Smotrich that is reported as: Israeli minister says it may be ‘moral’ to starve 2 million Gazans, but ‘no one in the world would let us’
The Mako article that had the leaked video that was shown on N12 (in Hebrew).
The B'tselem report (PDF)
The slightly earlier Haaretz article: Sde Teiman Doctor Who Saw Abused Gazan Detainee: 'I Couldn't Believe an Israeli Prison Guard Could Do Such a Thing' - Prof. Yoel Donchin, a doctor at Sde Teiman who saw the Gazan detainee after he was allegedly abused by nine Israeli reservists, expressed shock at the man's condition. 'I was certain this was revenge by the Nukhba against the Nukhba,' he said, referring to the elite Hamas unit
This is the fresh thread on the immediate genocide in Gaza and the occupation throughout Palestine.
CNN did cover the State Dept press pool that had reporters raising this directly though: State Dept calls for Israel to investigate allegations of ‘horrific’ sexual abuse of Palestinian detainees . Within: On Wednesday, Israeli lawmakers denounced the video leak. Israel’s far-right Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich called for an “immediate criminal investigation” to find out who leaked the video, which he described as having “hugely damaged Israel internationally.”
This will be the same Smotrich that is reported as: Israeli minister says it may be ‘moral’ to starve 2 million Gazans, but ‘no one in the world would let us’
The Mako article that had the leaked video that was shown on N12 (in Hebrew).
The B'tselem report (PDF)
The slightly earlier Haaretz article: Sde Teiman Doctor Who Saw Abused Gazan Detainee: 'I Couldn't Believe an Israeli Prison Guard Could Do Such a Thing' - Prof. Yoel Donchin, a doctor at Sde Teiman who saw the Gazan detainee after he was allegedly abused by nine Israeli reservists, expressed shock at the man's condition. 'I was certain this was revenge by the Nukhba against the Nukhba,' he said, referring to the elite Hamas unit
This is the fresh thread on the immediate genocide in Gaza and the occupation throughout Palestine.
Thank you for this thread!
posted by darkstar at 10:34 AM on August 8 [9 favorites]
posted by darkstar at 10:34 AM on August 8 [9 favorites]
Yeah just yesterday I was thinking how we've all mentally blocked out all the [CW: Violence] weird shit we did at Abu Ghraib.
posted by torokunai at 10:37 AM on August 8 [16 favorites]
![[CW: Violence] weird shit](https://redphoenixnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/abu-ghraid-torture.jpg){kind=link}
posted by torokunai at 10:37 AM on August 8 [16 favorites]
In extremely good job news, Israel's assassination (in a third country no less) of Ismail Haniyeh has led to Hamas appointing Yahya Sinwar as its top leader. You did it Joe. Economist: Hamas’s pick of Yahya Sinwar as leader makes a ceasefire less likely
The appointment is technically only a temporary one until an internal election can be held next year. Yet with the war in Gaza still raging, many Hamas leaders believe the poll will not take place as planned, which would leave Mr Sinwar unchallenged for some time. It means Hamas is becoming more of an underground guerilla movement with a leader hiding in a tunnel beneath Gaza, instead of shuttling between the capitals of the region. In recent months, the Qataris threatened Hamas’s leaders with eviction from Doha unless they show more flexibility in the ceasefire talks. Such a threat will have less of an effect on Mr Sinwar.
In messages passed via couriers from Gaza, Mr Sinwar had insisted that the new leader would need to be on good terms with both Iran and Syria—two of Hamas’s key backers. “Sinwar got much closer to Iran than anyone else in the movement in the past few years,” says Azzam Tamimi, a writer with close links to Hamas’s leadership. This essentially amounted to a veto on the appointment of Mr Meshaal.
Yet Hamas has long had an uneasy relationship with Iran. The Islamic republic was its main state sponsor, a regular source of arms and money. But a Sunni Islamist group and a revolutionary Shia regime made for uneasy bedfellows. When Syria slid into civil war in 2011, Iran propped up Bashar al-Assad’s regime, while Hamas sided with his mostly Sunni opposition. Mr Meshaal, who was the leader of Hamas at the time, closed the group’s headquarters in Damascus in 2012. He spent the next few years trying to cultivate ties with the Sunni Arab powers: in 2015, for example, he made a rare visit to Saudi Arabia to meet King Salman. Some Hamas leaders backed his effort, hoping the Gulf would provide them with investment and political legitimacy. Others preferred to patch up their relations with Iran.
In 2017, Mr Meshaal spearheaded efforts to revise the group’s charter to a document that softened its stance on Israel and appeared to nudge Hamas towards accepting a two state solution. Yet Mr Sinwar did all he could to undermine Mr Meshaal’s reforms, a move that fuelled great personal enmity between the two.
Had Mr Meshaal been named the group’s new leader—an appointment that Turkey and Qatar had been pushing for—it would have been a blow to the pro-Iranian faction within Hamas. The choice of Mr Sinwar means that Gulf states will keep their distance from the group: they view him as a dangerous ideologue aligned with their main regional foe. Moreover, Mr Sinwar’s appointment will further marginalise the group’s external political leaders, who are generally seen as more moderate and interested in diplomacy than Mr Sinwar is.
If there is indeed a part of Hamas that is interested in diplomacy, then it has been weakened by this move: whereas Mr Haniyeh had been pushing for a ceasefire with Israel, Mr Sinwar has instead tried to prolong the conflict. With Mr Sinwar cementing his control of both Gaza and Hamas’s political bureau, the chances of a ceasefire and the release of hostages look more remote.
Makes sense - if they stop fighting you, how are you gonna find all the fresh candidates to rape? Systematically?
posted by cendawanita at 10:51 AM on August 8 [6 favorites]
The appointment is technically only a temporary one until an internal election can be held next year. Yet with the war in Gaza still raging, many Hamas leaders believe the poll will not take place as planned, which would leave Mr Sinwar unchallenged for some time. It means Hamas is becoming more of an underground guerilla movement with a leader hiding in a tunnel beneath Gaza, instead of shuttling between the capitals of the region. In recent months, the Qataris threatened Hamas’s leaders with eviction from Doha unless they show more flexibility in the ceasefire talks. Such a threat will have less of an effect on Mr Sinwar.
In messages passed via couriers from Gaza, Mr Sinwar had insisted that the new leader would need to be on good terms with both Iran and Syria—two of Hamas’s key backers. “Sinwar got much closer to Iran than anyone else in the movement in the past few years,” says Azzam Tamimi, a writer with close links to Hamas’s leadership. This essentially amounted to a veto on the appointment of Mr Meshaal.
Yet Hamas has long had an uneasy relationship with Iran. The Islamic republic was its main state sponsor, a regular source of arms and money. But a Sunni Islamist group and a revolutionary Shia regime made for uneasy bedfellows. When Syria slid into civil war in 2011, Iran propped up Bashar al-Assad’s regime, while Hamas sided with his mostly Sunni opposition. Mr Meshaal, who was the leader of Hamas at the time, closed the group’s headquarters in Damascus in 2012. He spent the next few years trying to cultivate ties with the Sunni Arab powers: in 2015, for example, he made a rare visit to Saudi Arabia to meet King Salman. Some Hamas leaders backed his effort, hoping the Gulf would provide them with investment and political legitimacy. Others preferred to patch up their relations with Iran.
In 2017, Mr Meshaal spearheaded efforts to revise the group’s charter to a document that softened its stance on Israel and appeared to nudge Hamas towards accepting a two state solution. Yet Mr Sinwar did all he could to undermine Mr Meshaal’s reforms, a move that fuelled great personal enmity between the two.
Had Mr Meshaal been named the group’s new leader—an appointment that Turkey and Qatar had been pushing for—it would have been a blow to the pro-Iranian faction within Hamas. The choice of Mr Sinwar means that Gulf states will keep their distance from the group: they view him as a dangerous ideologue aligned with their main regional foe. Moreover, Mr Sinwar’s appointment will further marginalise the group’s external political leaders, who are generally seen as more moderate and interested in diplomacy than Mr Sinwar is.
If there is indeed a part of Hamas that is interested in diplomacy, then it has been weakened by this move: whereas Mr Haniyeh had been pushing for a ceasefire with Israel, Mr Sinwar has instead tried to prolong the conflict. With Mr Sinwar cementing his control of both Gaza and Hamas’s political bureau, the chances of a ceasefire and the release of hostages look more remote.
Makes sense - if they stop fighting you, how are you gonna find all the fresh candidates to rape? Systematically?
posted by cendawanita at 10:51 AM on August 8 [6 favorites]
It’s been questioned in another thread, so I’m going to restate it here: people who excuse this? Utter ghouls
People who in as many words say that Israel can only exist if it does shit like this? Likewise ghouls and antisemitic too.
posted by Artw at 10:53 AM on August 8 [34 favorites]
People who in as many words say that Israel can only exist if it does shit like this? Likewise ghouls and antisemitic too.
posted by Artw at 10:53 AM on August 8 [34 favorites]
The aftermath of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo was a big green light to allow and encourage this shit.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 10:58 AM on August 8 [9 favorites]
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 10:58 AM on August 8 [9 favorites]
I honestly don’t know that the timelines on that would work out. May actually go the other way.
posted by Artw at 11:00 AM on August 8 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:00 AM on August 8 [3 favorites]
Guantanamo is still operating. 22 years.
posted by gwint at 11:02 AM on August 8 [8 favorites]
posted by gwint at 11:02 AM on August 8 [8 favorites]
psst darkstar - wrong thread
posted by cendawanita at 11:02 AM on August 8
posted by cendawanita at 11:02 AM on August 8
I honestly don’t know that the timelines on that would work out. May actually go the other way
If you go way back you can probably blame the Brits. Usually a safe course of action.
posted by Artw at 11:05 AM on August 8 [8 favorites]
If you go way back you can probably blame the Brits. Usually a safe course of action.
posted by Artw at 11:05 AM on August 8 [8 favorites]
Wikipedia editors held a successful vote to change the article titled "Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza" to "Gaza Genocide"
posted by Lanark at 11:08 AM on August 8 [34 favorites]
posted by Lanark at 11:08 AM on August 8 [34 favorites]
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/7/8/gaza-toll-could-exceed-186000-lancet-study-says
I missed this when it came out last month.
"After applying a “conservative estimate” of four indirect deaths per one direct death, “it is not implausible to estimate that up to 186,000 or even more deaths could be attributable” to the Gaza war, the study found.
Such a number would represent almost 8 percent of Gaza’s pre-war population of 2.3 million.
The Lancet study noted that Israeli intelligence services, the UN and the World Health Organization all agree that claims of data fabrication levelled against the Palestinian authorities in Gaza over its death toll are “implausible”.”
posted by constraint at 11:09 AM on August 8 [15 favorites]
I missed this when it came out last month.
"After applying a “conservative estimate” of four indirect deaths per one direct death, “it is not implausible to estimate that up to 186,000 or even more deaths could be attributable” to the Gaza war, the study found.
Such a number would represent almost 8 percent of Gaza’s pre-war population of 2.3 million.
The Lancet study noted that Israeli intelligence services, the UN and the World Health Organization all agree that claims of data fabrication levelled against the Palestinian authorities in Gaza over its death toll are “implausible”.”
posted by constraint at 11:09 AM on August 8 [15 favorites]
The NYT in June: “Inside the Base Where Israel Has Detained Thousands of Gazans”
posted by Going To Maine at 11:25 AM on August 8 [1 favorite]
posted by Going To Maine at 11:25 AM on August 8 [1 favorite]
It's really something that at this point our best case scenario is that the Palestinian Genocide is limited to a mere literal decimation of the entire population of Gaza.
posted by stet at 11:36 AM on August 8 [12 favorites]
posted by stet at 11:36 AM on August 8 [12 favorites]
The aftermath of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo was a big green light to allow and encourage this shit.
This has been going on waayyyyy before the US was materially involved in the region. The British used to tie Palestinians to the front of trains as human shields.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:36 AM on August 8 [9 favorites]
This has been going on waayyyyy before the US was materially involved in the region. The British used to tie Palestinians to the front of trains as human shields.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:36 AM on August 8 [9 favorites]
Makes sense - if they stop fighting you, how are you gonna find all the fresh candidates to rape? Systematically?
This is entirely about Bibi. He's not going to let his far-right fascist coalition fall apart so the carnage cannot end. Ever. Because if the carnage ends and the coalition falls apart Bibi could very well go to jail.
There are plenty of collaborators and co-conspirators who are happy to move the slaughter along but Bibi is the lynchpin of this entire clusterfuck. He's a fucking evil man.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:37 AM on August 8 [16 favorites]
This is entirely about Bibi. He's not going to let his far-right fascist coalition fall apart so the carnage cannot end. Ever. Because if the carnage ends and the coalition falls apart Bibi could very well go to jail.
There are plenty of collaborators and co-conspirators who are happy to move the slaughter along but Bibi is the lynchpin of this entire clusterfuck. He's a fucking evil man.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:37 AM on August 8 [16 favorites]
When the Gaza genocide comes up, I like to remind people that the median age of the population of Gaza is just under 20 years old. So, yes, we're talking about killing one hundred and eighty six thousand people. Conservatively. But also, roughly eighty thousand of them are children.
posted by penduluum at 11:53 AM on August 8 [28 favorites]
posted by penduluum at 11:53 AM on August 8 [28 favorites]
What, did Netanyahu cause the Nakba too? He's committed to this course of action for reasons of personal gain of course, but he has massive support within Israel, and he's a centrist by their standards. The right wants to start using nukes and the left wants a peaceful, sustainable occupation where you only drag Palestinians from their homes in the night and lock them in a cell if they're a terrorist or related to a terrorist or the same race as a terrorist.
posted by jy4m at 11:56 AM on August 8 [14 favorites]
posted by jy4m at 11:56 AM on August 8 [14 favorites]
This has been going on waayyyyy before the US was materially involved in the region. The British used to tie Palestinians to the front of trains as human shields
So noted, but I somehow doubt they boasted so honestly about their violence the way we are now witnessing.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 11:58 AM on August 8 [2 favorites]
So noted, but I somehow doubt they boasted so honestly about their violence the way we are now witnessing.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 11:58 AM on August 8 [2 favorites]
This doesn't surprise me in the least.
The relationship between Israel and Palestine isn't going to be settled by Washington, London or anyone else outside the country. It's going to take a bunch of Israelies and Palestinians standing up and saying "We're not going to do this anymore" and making it stick. It's going to take a large majority on both sides getting rid of the old guys and getting some new people who are just fed up with war and fighting and bullshit. Yes, some people are going to have to open up wounds by laying out, in grim detail, the horrible shit that both sides did. That's how you clean wounds - you expose them, clean them up and put a bandage on them.
And then, wait 50 years, so that they're one generation separated from war and violence. Some sort of peace would be the normal. Not the "new normal"; by that time, it would just be normal.
And everyone would be better off just letting this happen. But we (the West) won't. Because, just like over there, religion and politics and no one is able to separate the two.
Still, I can dream of a day when the headlines are about Israelis and Palestinians doing something boring, like opening yet another school or dedicating a hospital. Maybe something exciting, like opening an amusement park (The Hottest Rides! No, seriously, we're in a desert - trust me, they are hot AF).
But unless we are an Israeli or Palestinian, there ain't shit we can do for this except make it worse.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 12:14 PM on August 8 [11 favorites]
The relationship between Israel and Palestine isn't going to be settled by Washington, London or anyone else outside the country. It's going to take a bunch of Israelies and Palestinians standing up and saying "We're not going to do this anymore" and making it stick. It's going to take a large majority on both sides getting rid of the old guys and getting some new people who are just fed up with war and fighting and bullshit. Yes, some people are going to have to open up wounds by laying out, in grim detail, the horrible shit that both sides did. That's how you clean wounds - you expose them, clean them up and put a bandage on them.
And then, wait 50 years, so that they're one generation separated from war and violence. Some sort of peace would be the normal. Not the "new normal"; by that time, it would just be normal.
And everyone would be better off just letting this happen. But we (the West) won't. Because, just like over there, religion and politics and no one is able to separate the two.
Still, I can dream of a day when the headlines are about Israelis and Palestinians doing something boring, like opening yet another school or dedicating a hospital. Maybe something exciting, like opening an amusement park (The Hottest Rides! No, seriously, we're in a desert - trust me, they are hot AF).
But unless we are an Israeli or Palestinian, there ain't shit we can do for this except make it worse.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 12:14 PM on August 8 [11 favorites]
The US can absolutely stop sending money and bombs and providing diplomatic cover. We can push for that.
posted by Artw at 12:19 PM on August 8 [57 favorites]
posted by Artw at 12:19 PM on August 8 [57 favorites]
USA-based people: remember to vote as well as to campaign and protest! Palestine will be down 2 advocates what with the primary losses of Cori Bush and Jamaal Bowman, both due to AiPac support for their pro-Israel opponent per the BBC link. These changes at the USA governmental level risk adversely impacting negotiations with the incoming USA administration, especially if it's Trump/Vance.
posted by beaning at 12:20 PM on August 8 [11 favorites]
posted by beaning at 12:20 PM on August 8 [11 favorites]
But unless we are an Israeli or Palestinian, there ain't shit we can do for this except make it worse
What is this based on? Pure vibes?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:23 PM on August 8 [8 favorites]
What is this based on? Pure vibes?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:23 PM on August 8 [8 favorites]
And everyone would be better off just letting this happen.What, exactly, does that mean? That we should let people publish about this kind of abuse, or that it should be more visible in the media (I agree.). Or do you mean that investigating this, since we're not Palestinian or Israeli, is making it worse (I do not agree)?
posted by sagc at 12:27 PM on August 8 [3 favorites]
AIPAC wouldn’t be making the effort if it didn’t matter, we can take that as a slightly grim silver lining.
posted by Artw at 12:28 PM on August 8 [13 favorites]
posted by Artw at 12:28 PM on August 8 [13 favorites]
It's going to take a large majority on both sides getting rid of the old guys and getting some new people who are just fed up...
When someone makes this argument that "both sides are just the same" all it does is tell me that you don't understand the 100 years of history or the current situation.
posted by Lanark at 12:36 PM on August 8 [18 favorites]
When someone makes this argument that "both sides are just the same" all it does is tell me that you don't understand the 100 years of history or the current situation.
posted by Lanark at 12:36 PM on August 8 [18 favorites]
Yes, some people are going to have to open up wounds by laying out, in grim detail, the horrible shit that both sides did.
I highly recommend the John Oliver episode from last week.
Both sides have done horrible shit, but one side has always had the military resources, the political opportunity, and the diplomatic cover to inflict way worse shit than they receive.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:51 PM on August 8 [22 favorites]
I highly recommend the John Oliver episode from last week.
Both sides have done horrible shit, but one side has always had the military resources, the political opportunity, and the diplomatic cover to inflict way worse shit than they receive.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:51 PM on August 8 [22 favorites]
But unless we are an Israeli or Palestinian, there ain't shit we can do for this except make it worse.
This is extremely not true.
posted by dry white toast at 1:08 PM on August 8 [23 favorites]
This is extremely not true.
posted by dry white toast at 1:08 PM on August 8 [23 favorites]
Sde Teiman Doctor Who Saw Abused Gazan Detainee: 'I Couldn't Believe an Israeli Prison Guard Could Do Such a Thing
unblocked link
Guardian story
posted by Ideefixe at 1:31 PM on August 8 [5 favorites]
unblocked link
Guardian story
posted by Ideefixe at 1:31 PM on August 8 [5 favorites]
It's going to take a large majority on both sides
Did you just both sides genocide?
posted by iamck at 1:40 PM on August 8 [15 favorites]
Did you just both sides genocide?
posted by iamck at 1:40 PM on August 8 [15 favorites]
I thought the segment on CBS Sunday Morning a few weeks ago (Children of Gaza) might have sparked... something in the discourse.
Instead, House votes to ban State Department from citing Gaza Health Ministry death toll statistics and County in New York bans wearing masks to hide identity of Gaza war protesters.
posted by armacy at 1:48 PM on August 8 [10 favorites]
Instead, House votes to ban State Department from citing Gaza Health Ministry death toll statistics and County in New York bans wearing masks to hide identity of Gaza war protesters.
posted by armacy at 1:48 PM on August 8 [10 favorites]
^ "but lawmakers in the Republican-controlled county"
don't expect any sanity from the GOP, yaknow?
posted by torokunai at 1:58 PM on August 8 [2 favorites]
don't expect any sanity from the GOP, yaknow?
posted by torokunai at 1:58 PM on August 8 [2 favorites]
Bookmarked to cite whenever anyone tries to convince me that the oppressor / oppressed divide stems from anything other than historical opportunity. “Never again” in any language should always be interpreted as “just as soon as we get the chance”.
posted by ryanshepard at 2:10 PM on August 8 [10 favorites]
posted by ryanshepard at 2:10 PM on August 8 [10 favorites]
> But unless we are an Israeli or Palestinian, there ain't shit we can do for this except make it worse.
This specifically is the thing that is killing my friends and their family. The people saying this, in various forms.
posted by constraint at 2:56 PM on August 8 [21 favorites]
This specifically is the thing that is killing my friends and their family. The people saying this, in various forms.
posted by constraint at 2:56 PM on August 8 [21 favorites]
“Never again” in any language should always be interpreted as “just as soon as we get the chance”.
The idea that a state can have a racial or religious character that exempts it from the possibility of engaging in state violence is obviously delusional. But numerous people, Jewish and otherwise, have said "never again" and aren't responsible for the violence of the Israeli state. Many anti-genocide activists speaking out on behalf of Palestine are Jewish or even Israeli. Just like some Americans are trying to oppose the genocide while their state actively contributes to it.
posted by pattern juggler at 3:00 PM on August 8 [25 favorites]
The idea that a state can have a racial or religious character that exempts it from the possibility of engaging in state violence is obviously delusional. But numerous people, Jewish and otherwise, have said "never again" and aren't responsible for the violence of the Israeli state. Many anti-genocide activists speaking out on behalf of Palestine are Jewish or even Israeli. Just like some Americans are trying to oppose the genocide while their state actively contributes to it.
posted by pattern juggler at 3:00 PM on August 8 [25 favorites]
USA-based people: remember to vote
Vote for whom? Serious question.
posted by supercres at 3:26 PM on August 8 [4 favorites]
Vote for whom? Serious question.
posted by supercres at 3:26 PM on August 8 [4 favorites]
Ilhan Omar, if you can.
posted by Artw at 3:30 PM on August 8 [11 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:30 PM on August 8 [11 favorites]
.
posted by nicolas.bray at 4:03 PM on August 8
posted by nicolas.bray at 4:03 PM on August 8
USA-based people: remember to vote
Vote for whom? Serious question.
So my info is USA based but I'd love to hear if/how other countries and their elections are going re this.
Ceasefireaction.com lists 89 of the 536 members of Congress as fully supporting a ceasefire and has filters for the other stances, your voting address, and breakdown by House and Senate. Remember the House gets completely re-elected every 2 yrs as does a rotation of 1/3 of the Senate. Ballotpedia, among other voter info sites, has various search functions for who in your area could be of interest.
Rep Ilham Omar has a contested primary coming up for those in Minnesota, and her advocacy has been a speaking point for her opponent. While Omar is currently favored, every vote helps push the message of supporting her and her policies.
Rep Rashida Tlaib is the only Palestinian-American in Congress and was censured in Nov 2023 for her advocacy. She was uncontested in her Michigan primary but has an ultra-conservative Republican opponent in the fall.
And as for the USA presidential candidates, Harris has not yet put forth an official stance on Palestine and Israel but is widely expected to be more amenable to talking points and pressure than Trump would be.
posted by beaning at 4:33 PM on August 8 [10 favorites]
Vote for whom? Serious question.
So my info is USA based but I'd love to hear if/how other countries and their elections are going re this.
Ceasefireaction.com lists 89 of the 536 members of Congress as fully supporting a ceasefire and has filters for the other stances, your voting address, and breakdown by House and Senate. Remember the House gets completely re-elected every 2 yrs as does a rotation of 1/3 of the Senate. Ballotpedia, among other voter info sites, has various search functions for who in your area could be of interest.
Rep Ilham Omar has a contested primary coming up for those in Minnesota, and her advocacy has been a speaking point for her opponent. While Omar is currently favored, every vote helps push the message of supporting her and her policies.
Rep Rashida Tlaib is the only Palestinian-American in Congress and was censured in Nov 2023 for her advocacy. She was uncontested in her Michigan primary but has an ultra-conservative Republican opponent in the fall.
And as for the USA presidential candidates, Harris has not yet put forth an official stance on Palestine and Israel but is widely expected to be more amenable to talking points and pressure than Trump would be.
posted by beaning at 4:33 PM on August 8 [10 favorites]
But unless we are an Israeli or Palestinian, there ain't shit we can do for this except make it worse.
this is false. we mostly can't take individual actions that will have noticeable effects; we have to coordinate in most cases. but international pressure is important here. there's applying pressure to ones own government where they are complicit; there is applying pressure to the Israeli state via boycotts and direct action to interrupt the supply of weapons (organised dockworkers a while back). there is helping to maintain visibility of the genocide in the countries where people most need to do the preceding things, keeping the temperature up so that people who aren't directly affected except at the moral level don't all abandon their efforts (i don't think cendawanita is Israeli or Palestinian but is nonetheless providing an amazing example of this last one with these posts, for instance). also there is debunking hasbarist-adjacent talking points (or, more charitably, defeatist errors) on the internet.
also like obviously formal international institutions have important roles to play especially if imperial powers stop undermining them.
(a standalone post on how to join collective action against the occupation and genocide (as opposed to one with a newsier angle) is likely to get memory-holed (?) but if folks have links, memail them to me and I could combine with a list of my own and give it a try. was there already a post with that focus that I missed?)
posted by busted_crayons at 4:36 PM on August 8 [8 favorites]
this is false. we mostly can't take individual actions that will have noticeable effects; we have to coordinate in most cases. but international pressure is important here. there's applying pressure to ones own government where they are complicit; there is applying pressure to the Israeli state via boycotts and direct action to interrupt the supply of weapons (organised dockworkers a while back). there is helping to maintain visibility of the genocide in the countries where people most need to do the preceding things, keeping the temperature up so that people who aren't directly affected except at the moral level don't all abandon their efforts (i don't think cendawanita is Israeli or Palestinian but is nonetheless providing an amazing example of this last one with these posts, for instance). also there is debunking hasbarist-adjacent talking points (or, more charitably, defeatist errors) on the internet.
also like obviously formal international institutions have important roles to play especially if imperial powers stop undermining them.
(a standalone post on how to join collective action against the occupation and genocide (as opposed to one with a newsier angle) is likely to get memory-holed (?) but if folks have links, memail them to me and I could combine with a list of my own and give it a try. was there already a post with that focus that I missed?)
posted by busted_crayons at 4:36 PM on August 8 [8 favorites]
a standalone post on how to join collective action against the occupation and genocide
That's a great idea, busted_crayons!
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 4:53 PM on August 8 [4 favorites]
That's a great idea, busted_crayons!
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 4:53 PM on August 8 [4 favorites]
The claim "there's nothing we can do" should always be met with closer examination than you'd levy at the average claim of capability. Because it's so convenient, it's so selfish, and it's potentially so poisonous.
posted by penduluum at 5:24 PM on August 8 [8 favorites]
posted by penduluum at 5:24 PM on August 8 [8 favorites]
USA-based people: remember to vote
Vote for whom? Serious question.
I think this question is meant to be some kind of "gotcha," in that neither the Biden administration nor the Trump appear to be adequately committed to stopping the genocide (though as always Trump is and would be far worse), but, if so...it reflects a very shallow understanding of U.S. politics that is not exactly a good basis for knowing cynicism. Cori Bush and Jamaal Bowman, vocal advocates for the Gazans, were both targeted by AIPAC in their primaries specifically for that reason and defeated! If you live in their districts, they could definitely have used your damn vote!
posted by praemunire at 5:52 PM on August 8 [11 favorites]
Vote for whom? Serious question.
I think this question is meant to be some kind of "gotcha," in that neither the Biden administration nor the Trump appear to be adequately committed to stopping the genocide (though as always Trump is and would be far worse), but, if so...it reflects a very shallow understanding of U.S. politics that is not exactly a good basis for knowing cynicism. Cori Bush and Jamaal Bowman, vocal advocates for the Gazans, were both targeted by AIPAC in their primaries specifically for that reason and defeated! If you live in their districts, they could definitely have used your damn vote!
posted by praemunire at 5:52 PM on August 8 [11 favorites]
But unless we are an Israeli or Palestinian, there ain't shit we can do for this except make it worse.
The International Court of Justice recently clarified in an advisory opinion that Israel's occupation of Gaza and the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) is illegal and must be brought to an end "as rapidly as possible." One important thing we can do is pressure governments to fulfill their legal obligations in relation to to this situation, which the Court found included "an obligation not to render aid or assistance in maintaining the situation created by Israel’s illegal presence in the Occupied Palestinian Territory." This means things like arms embargoes, for one.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 5:57 PM on August 8 [8 favorites]
The International Court of Justice recently clarified in an advisory opinion that Israel's occupation of Gaza and the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) is illegal and must be brought to an end "as rapidly as possible." One important thing we can do is pressure governments to fulfill their legal obligations in relation to to this situation, which the Court found included "an obligation not to render aid or assistance in maintaining the situation created by Israel’s illegal presence in the Occupied Palestinian Territory." This means things like arms embargoes, for one.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 5:57 PM on August 8 [8 favorites]
How to end a spiralling Middle East crisis - "A ceasefire deal in Gaza is the only way to put a stop to the region's cycle of violence."
also btw...
Turkey submits official request to join ICJ genocide case against Israel - "Israel has repeatedly dismissed the case's accusations of genocide as baseless, arguing in court that its operations in Gaza are self-defence and targeted Hamas militants who attacked Israel on Oct. 7 last year and killed 1,200 Israelis and foreigners in a single day. In 10 months of subsequent warfare, more than 39,600 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza, hundreds of thousands displaced, and most of the enclave laid to waste as a humanitarian crisis has unfolded."
posted by kliuless at 6:24 PM on August 8 [5 favorites]
The fate of the region is the hands of the hardliners: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his far-right government; Hizbollah’s Hassan Nasrallah; Iran’s supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei; and Yahya Sinwar, the brutal Hamas leader who began it all by masterminding the October 7 attack...US Calls for Gaza Cease-Fire Talks Aug. 15 With Qatar, Egypt - "The US, Qatar and Egypt are calling for a new round of cease-fire talks on Aug. 15, the latest attempt by the Biden administration to end the war in Gaza even as the region braces for an expected Iranian attack on Israel."
Both attacks [Israeli strikes killing Hizbollah and Hamas leaders in Beirut and Tehran, respectively] dealt humiliating blows to Israel’s foes. It has left them in a bind: respond and risk all out war with Israel, or show restraint and appear impotent. Their own rhetoric suggests they will act, perhaps in concert. The scale of the retaliation will matter and determine Israel’s next act, which in turn will shape counter-responses from Hizbollah and Iran.
There is, however, a way out: US-led efforts to broker a multiphase deal to secure the release of hostages held in Gaza and end the Israel-Hamas war. That is key to unlocking a separate US-mediated agreement to end the clashes between Hizbollah and Israel. If a ceasefire is announced, it may allow Iran to save face and reconsider its response.
also btw...
Turkey submits official request to join ICJ genocide case against Israel - "Israel has repeatedly dismissed the case's accusations of genocide as baseless, arguing in court that its operations in Gaza are self-defence and targeted Hamas militants who attacked Israel on Oct. 7 last year and killed 1,200 Israelis and foreigners in a single day. In 10 months of subsequent warfare, more than 39,600 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza, hundreds of thousands displaced, and most of the enclave laid to waste as a humanitarian crisis has unfolded."
posted by kliuless at 6:24 PM on August 8 [5 favorites]
Forgot to add one very important implication of the ICJ ruling: because the occupation is illegal, its end cannot be made conditional on Israel agreeing to a peace deal (in the broad sense; a Gaza ceasefire is a separate issue). This point was highlighted in a joint statement by independent human rights experts (appointed by the UN Human Rights Council):
"The Court refuted the notion that Palestinian self-determination must be achieved solely through bilateral negotiations with Israel – a requirement that has subjected Palestinians to violence, dispossession and rights violations for 30 years.
“ 'The Court has finally reaffirmed a principle that seemed unclear, even to the United Nations: Freedom from foreign military occupation, racial segregation and apartheid is absolutely non-negotiable,' the experts said."
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 6:36 PM on August 8 [12 favorites]
"The Court refuted the notion that Palestinian self-determination must be achieved solely through bilateral negotiations with Israel – a requirement that has subjected Palestinians to violence, dispossession and rights violations for 30 years.
“ 'The Court has finally reaffirmed a principle that seemed unclear, even to the United Nations: Freedom from foreign military occupation, racial segregation and apartheid is absolutely non-negotiable,' the experts said."
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 6:36 PM on August 8 [12 favorites]
For my personal but fanciful take, the ICJ AO should've been a come-to-Jesus moment to the media too, but... Well, I did say it was fanciful.
Yanyway.
Great look, don't go to the Nagasaki event because you're all-in on Rape Camp Country: (Nikkei) U.S., Europe aired concern over no Israel at Nagasaki A-bomb event - Envoys pulling out say Israel shouldn't be put on same level as Russia, Belarus
I suppose that's true. Russian soldiers have been reported to do sexual abuse but idk if we've got a CCTV recording of them huddling over their raping comrade and covering them with US-made shields so there won't be no identification. Brother in arms, amirite.
The envoys of Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, the United States and the European Union said it "would result in placing Israel on the same level as countries such as Russia and Belarus," which have not been invited to the ceremony for a third consecutive year.
U.S. Ambassador to Japan Rahm Emanuel will no longer attend the Nagasaki peace ceremony on Friday in response to the city not inviting Israel, a source familiar with the matter said the same day.
British Ambassador to Japan Julia Longbottom also announced the previous day that she would be absent from the ceremony, as she disagreed with the decision by the southwestern city. (also MEE reporting on the same and MEMO)
It wasn't just the disinvitation - Palestine was also invited as well.
On the media: (Semafor) Journal still can’t confirm January story about UN agency for Palestinians (the UNRWA is Hamas and Oct 7 story)
But months later, the paper’s top editor overseeing standards privately made an admission: The paper didn’t know — and still doesn’t know —whether the allegation, based on Israeli intelligence reports, was true.
“The fact that the Israeli claims haven’t been backed up by solid evidence doesn’t mean our reporting was inaccurate or misleading, that we have walked it back or that there is a correctable error here,” Elena Cherney, the chief news editor, wrote in an email earlier this year seen by Semafor.
You expect actual intelligence from Rape Camp(S) Country? Maybe I'm being too harsh on Americans. After all, Abu Ghraib.
There were also broader concerns about the paper’s coverage of the war. In a telephone call with Middle East staff in December, then-standards editor Richard Boudreaux said the paper had examined a sample of its coverage over several weeks and found that it leaned too heavily on Israeli voices and did not include enough Arab perspectives or expert sources. According to one person familiar with the move, the paper subsequently created a master list with dozens of sources to address the imbalance.
But the internal friction within the Journal came to a head over the paper’s coverage of UNRWA.
(...) Inside the Journal, some were wondering the same thing. After the story was published in January, other journalists failed to confirm its central claim. According to two people familiar with the reporting, the Journal’s Israeli intelligence sources had not provided a verifiable list of names of UNRWA workers alleged to have ties to Hamas that the paper could follow up on.
One investigative journalist for the Journal in Washington at one point tried to verify UNRWA staffers’ Hamas affiliations through cell phone data, but was unsuccessful. So did national security beat reporters Nancy Youssef and Jared Malsin, who found that US intelligence also could not substantiate that part of the claim, and they filed a story in late February noting some of the gaps. But according to two sources with knowledge of the situation, the reporters were not pleased when the story was initially published with the headline: “U.S. Finds Claims That U.N. Aid Agency Staff Took Part in Hamas Attack ‘Credible.’” After internal complaints, the paper later updated the headline to reflect the ambiguity: “U.S. Finds Some Israeli Claims on U.N. Staff Likely, Others Not.”
(...) The Journal isn’t alone in facing scrutiny over its reporting on the war in Gaza, which has proved deeply divisive within many US newsrooms.
The New York Times has had its own raft of issues. The Intercept, an unabashedly pro-Palestinian digital media outlet, reported on internal fissures within the Times over its coverage of the war, which slowed down the publication of a piece in flagship podcast The Daily.
The publication has also faced issues similar to the ones at the Journal: One of the reporters on its controversial story about sexual violence had previously liked offensive tweets critical of Palestinians. Early in the war, the paper offered a rare apology for its coverage of an explosion at a Gaza hospital, noting that it relied too heavily on unsubstantiated claims from Hamas. The paper has essentially resorted to operating a split newsroom, with one side covering from the Palestinian perspective and the other covering from the Israeli one.
Conversely, allies of Israel have pushed to have journalists at major publications taken off the beat who they see as as too aggressively pro-Palestinian. I reported earlier this year on how pro-Israel groups were putting together opposition-style research on reporters at the Washington Post, digging up pro-Palestinian tweets and pointing out alleged biases and mistakes. The Post has offered only a mild defense of its own reporters covering the war.
I love how when US politicians say they care for all Americans or institutions say similar about their staff there's a huge asterisk that's apparently rude to point out.
posted by cendawanita at 7:13 PM on August 8 [14 favorites]
Yanyway.
Great look, don't go to the Nagasaki event because you're all-in on Rape Camp Country: (Nikkei) U.S., Europe aired concern over no Israel at Nagasaki A-bomb event - Envoys pulling out say Israel shouldn't be put on same level as Russia, Belarus
I suppose that's true. Russian soldiers have been reported to do sexual abuse but idk if we've got a CCTV recording of them huddling over their raping comrade and covering them with US-made shields so there won't be no identification. Brother in arms, amirite.
The envoys of Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, the United States and the European Union said it "would result in placing Israel on the same level as countries such as Russia and Belarus," which have not been invited to the ceremony for a third consecutive year.
U.S. Ambassador to Japan Rahm Emanuel will no longer attend the Nagasaki peace ceremony on Friday in response to the city not inviting Israel, a source familiar with the matter said the same day.
British Ambassador to Japan Julia Longbottom also announced the previous day that she would be absent from the ceremony, as she disagreed with the decision by the southwestern city. (also MEE reporting on the same and MEMO)
It wasn't just the disinvitation - Palestine was also invited as well.
On the media: (Semafor) Journal still can’t confirm January story about UN agency for Palestinians (the UNRWA is Hamas and Oct 7 story)
But months later, the paper’s top editor overseeing standards privately made an admission: The paper didn’t know — and still doesn’t know —whether the allegation, based on Israeli intelligence reports, was true.
“The fact that the Israeli claims haven’t been backed up by solid evidence doesn’t mean our reporting was inaccurate or misleading, that we have walked it back or that there is a correctable error here,” Elena Cherney, the chief news editor, wrote in an email earlier this year seen by Semafor.
You expect actual intelligence from Rape Camp(S) Country? Maybe I'm being too harsh on Americans. After all, Abu Ghraib.
There were also broader concerns about the paper’s coverage of the war. In a telephone call with Middle East staff in December, then-standards editor Richard Boudreaux said the paper had examined a sample of its coverage over several weeks and found that it leaned too heavily on Israeli voices and did not include enough Arab perspectives or expert sources. According to one person familiar with the move, the paper subsequently created a master list with dozens of sources to address the imbalance.
But the internal friction within the Journal came to a head over the paper’s coverage of UNRWA.
(...) Inside the Journal, some were wondering the same thing. After the story was published in January, other journalists failed to confirm its central claim. According to two people familiar with the reporting, the Journal’s Israeli intelligence sources had not provided a verifiable list of names of UNRWA workers alleged to have ties to Hamas that the paper could follow up on.
One investigative journalist for the Journal in Washington at one point tried to verify UNRWA staffers’ Hamas affiliations through cell phone data, but was unsuccessful. So did national security beat reporters Nancy Youssef and Jared Malsin, who found that US intelligence also could not substantiate that part of the claim, and they filed a story in late February noting some of the gaps. But according to two sources with knowledge of the situation, the reporters were not pleased when the story was initially published with the headline: “U.S. Finds Claims That U.N. Aid Agency Staff Took Part in Hamas Attack ‘Credible.’” After internal complaints, the paper later updated the headline to reflect the ambiguity: “U.S. Finds Some Israeli Claims on U.N. Staff Likely, Others Not.”
(...) The Journal isn’t alone in facing scrutiny over its reporting on the war in Gaza, which has proved deeply divisive within many US newsrooms.
The New York Times has had its own raft of issues. The Intercept, an unabashedly pro-Palestinian digital media outlet, reported on internal fissures within the Times over its coverage of the war, which slowed down the publication of a piece in flagship podcast The Daily.
The publication has also faced issues similar to the ones at the Journal: One of the reporters on its controversial story about sexual violence had previously liked offensive tweets critical of Palestinians. Early in the war, the paper offered a rare apology for its coverage of an explosion at a Gaza hospital, noting that it relied too heavily on unsubstantiated claims from Hamas. The paper has essentially resorted to operating a split newsroom, with one side covering from the Palestinian perspective and the other covering from the Israeli one.
Conversely, allies of Israel have pushed to have journalists at major publications taken off the beat who they see as as too aggressively pro-Palestinian. I reported earlier this year on how pro-Israel groups were putting together opposition-style research on reporters at the Washington Post, digging up pro-Palestinian tweets and pointing out alleged biases and mistakes. The Post has offered only a mild defense of its own reporters covering the war.
I love how when US politicians say they care for all Americans or institutions say similar about their staff there's a huge asterisk that's apparently rude to point out.
posted by cendawanita at 7:13 PM on August 8 [14 favorites]
Is Rahms dumb ass fired yet?
posted by Artw at 7:21 PM on August 8 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:21 PM on August 8 [4 favorites]
I know it was in the other thread, but the idea that the moment the US stops selling weapons to Israel, Iran will invade is completely out of touch with the reality of the situation.. And if the Israelis were actually that hard up for weapons, maybe they could stop dropping them on schools and hospitals.
posted by pattern juggler at 7:28 PM on August 8 [15 favorites]
posted by pattern juggler at 7:28 PM on August 8 [15 favorites]
Apologies if someone linked this already but it's not just that we have all these reports of sexual abuse, all of a sudden....
There were violent riots last week by Israeli soldiers after nine of them were arrested on charges of sexually abusing a Palestinian man in prison. The rioting soldiers broke into the facilities where the arrested soldiers were being kept before the trial.
Members of the Israeli government were at the 'protests' and said the rioting soldiers were 'heroes,' and then lawmakers argued whether sexual assault should be allowed as a torture tactic, and then some of them concluded that 'everything' should be allowed against members of Hamas.
https://truthout.org/articles/israeli-militants-riot-over-investigation-into-torture-of-palestinian-prisoner/
Like the rot. It goes. SO deep.
posted by subdee at 8:15 PM on August 8 [23 favorites]
There were violent riots last week by Israeli soldiers after nine of them were arrested on charges of sexually abusing a Palestinian man in prison. The rioting soldiers broke into the facilities where the arrested soldiers were being kept before the trial.
Members of the Israeli government were at the 'protests' and said the rioting soldiers were 'heroes,' and then lawmakers argued whether sexual assault should be allowed as a torture tactic, and then some of them concluded that 'everything' should be allowed against members of Hamas.
https://truthout.org/articles/israeli-militants-riot-over-investigation-into-torture-of-palestinian-prisoner/
Like the rot. It goes. SO deep.
posted by subdee at 8:15 PM on August 8 [23 favorites]
The fear is more likely what batshit insane thing Bibi will do next if he starts running low on conventional weapons. It ain't like his defense or intelligence ministers are going to push back in the least on whatever pops into his head, they are more unhinged than he is.
I don't agree with the kid gloves approach, but given the context of Israel definitely being a nuclear power and Iran very likely having at least rudimentary nuclear weapons and a delivery system capable of getting them to Israel I can understand the reticence many governments are having.
Sadly, a long series of poor past choices going all the way back to the mid-1960s are severely constraining the universe of what the people in power consider to be realistic possibilities. Fixing those mistakes would require a Nixonian madman level play.
posted by wierdo at 8:22 PM on August 8 [4 favorites]
I don't agree with the kid gloves approach, but given the context of Israel definitely being a nuclear power and Iran very likely having at least rudimentary nuclear weapons and a delivery system capable of getting them to Israel I can understand the reticence many governments are having.
Sadly, a long series of poor past choices going all the way back to the mid-1960s are severely constraining the universe of what the people in power consider to be realistic possibilities. Fixing those mistakes would require a Nixonian madman level play.
posted by wierdo at 8:22 PM on August 8 [4 favorites]
There were violent riots last week by Israeli soldiers after nine of them were arrested on charges of sexually abusing a Palestinian man in prison. The rioting soldiers broke into the facilities where the arrested soldiers were being kept before the trial.
And that investigation itself was one of those expected to be sham ones (per B'tselem in that DN interview) in order to provide some justification to argue that as the principle of complementarity is in place, Israeli leaders shouldn't be subject to ICC warrants. And yet. The rot.
posted by cendawanita at 8:30 PM on August 8 [11 favorites]
And that investigation itself was one of those expected to be sham ones (per B'tselem in that DN interview) in order to provide some justification to argue that as the principle of complementarity is in place, Israeli leaders shouldn't be subject to ICC warrants. And yet. The rot.
posted by cendawanita at 8:30 PM on August 8 [11 favorites]
> 89 of the 536 members of Congress as fully supporting a ceasefire
God, that is such a fucking depressing ratio
posted by blendor at 8:54 PM on August 8 [5 favorites]
God, that is such a fucking depressing ratio
posted by blendor at 8:54 PM on August 8 [5 favorites]
The fear is more likely what batshit insane thing Bibi will do next if he starts running low on conventional weapons. It ain't like his defense or intelligence ministers are going to push back in the least on whatever pops into his head, they are more unhinged than he is.
I'm sorry, but I just don't see how this logic works. This guy is so violent and unpredictable we have to keep arming him? He might do something crazy if he has less military resources, so we need to keep giving him weapons to carry out genocide? If Israel is unable to carry out mass murder on a defenseless population due to lack of armaments, how are they going to plausibly attack a state capable of fighting back as a response to their desperation.
Stopping arming and giving political cover to Israel might not be sufficient to stop genocide, but it is definitely a necessary first step, and one I don't think would be at all controversial if so many people weren't left trying to justify the actions of the American government.
posted by pattern juggler at 4:06 AM on August 9 [9 favorites]
I'm sorry, but I just don't see how this logic works. This guy is so violent and unpredictable we have to keep arming him? He might do something crazy if he has less military resources, so we need to keep giving him weapons to carry out genocide? If Israel is unable to carry out mass murder on a defenseless population due to lack of armaments, how are they going to plausibly attack a state capable of fighting back as a response to their desperation.
Stopping arming and giving political cover to Israel might not be sufficient to stop genocide, but it is definitely a necessary first step, and one I don't think would be at all controversial if so many people weren't left trying to justify the actions of the American government.
posted by pattern juggler at 4:06 AM on August 9 [9 favorites]
I ran across a video clip (CW: discussion of rape, expletives) yesterday on Twixxer, of a panel on Israel's Channel 12 discussing this rape of prisoners. One panelist not only defended the violations, but insisted that it should be official government policy to violate all captives in that manner as a deterrent for its enemies, and that another panelist speaking out against those violations was "weakening the nation."
The panelist, a journalist, later retracted his endorsement of systemic rape on a radio show, acknowledging "legitimate criticism" of his commentary and advocating "just" the death penalty for terror offenses instead.
posted by delfin at 5:19 AM on August 9 [8 favorites]
The panelist, a journalist, later retracted his endorsement of systemic rape on a radio show, acknowledging "legitimate criticism" of his commentary and advocating "just" the death penalty for terror offenses instead.
posted by delfin at 5:19 AM on August 9 [8 favorites]
We're having a discussion about arms embargoes, when a truly just society would be talking about military intervention to remove Bibi from power by force. But he's our genocidal ally.
posted by iamck at 7:13 AM on August 9 [3 favorites]
posted by iamck at 7:13 AM on August 9 [3 favorites]
I'm sorry, but I just don't see how this logic works.
By nature, all international contracts are unenforceable, so they are designed from the ground up to make it extremely painful for either party to renege on their commitments.
For example, Israeli companies manufacture critical components of the F-35 jet, including the cutting edge helmet mounted display system. So the US can't easily disentangle itself from Israel, and neither can Israel disentangle itself from the US, or the rest of the Western alliance (UK, Australia, Germany, etc).
These jets are typically sold as whole-of-life sustainment contracts - like Australia spent $300mil per EA-18G jet (versus the $125 mil unit cost) - the US is committing to Australia that it will do whatever it takes to ensure Australia is able to fly those jets for the next 20 years, making their alliance almost impossible to break. You can see this not so much as an exchange of money for services, but akin to tribute that Australia pays to the US to be under its protection.
If the Western alliance chose to cut Israel off, then this would impair the West's use of F-35 jets as their own supply of certain components and access to IP would be compromised, at least temporarily. Worse, if the aim of this is to prevent Israel from using their F-35 jets... and they truly halted all trade with Israel - then what does Israel have to lose?
Since the US broke their commitments then Israel would just say they're entitled to sell the useless F-35 jets to Russia to reverse engineer, and in return Russia would be their new security partner - maybe in return, Russia would send them a squadron of SU-34s, SU-35s, maybe a battalion or two of TOS-1 Heavy Flamethrowers, and a few hundred thousand artillery shells. Actually, China would probably be a more interested buyer right now given Russia's present entanglement in Ukraine, but you get the point. This would be a devastating strategic blow to all West aligned nations.
Now sponsored by Russia or China and no longer held in check by a Western ally, Israel is free to completely purge then annex as much land as it likes similar to Russia taking Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, or follow China's lead in running mass "re-education" camps for several million Palestinians similar to what took (is taking?) place in Xinjiang. Unlike Ukraine, there is no way the US is going to be sending weapons to support Hamas or Hezbollah.
If you think things are dire now, they could be much much worse.
I'd bet good money Israel isn't invited to be a partner on the NGAD as a result of the last 9 months, and this is likely to be a watershed moment which will lead to Israel's isolation from the West over the next decade or so.
posted by xdvesper at 7:15 AM on August 9 [2 favorites]
By nature, all international contracts are unenforceable, so they are designed from the ground up to make it extremely painful for either party to renege on their commitments.
For example, Israeli companies manufacture critical components of the F-35 jet, including the cutting edge helmet mounted display system. So the US can't easily disentangle itself from Israel, and neither can Israel disentangle itself from the US, or the rest of the Western alliance (UK, Australia, Germany, etc).
These jets are typically sold as whole-of-life sustainment contracts - like Australia spent $300mil per EA-18G jet (versus the $125 mil unit cost) - the US is committing to Australia that it will do whatever it takes to ensure Australia is able to fly those jets for the next 20 years, making their alliance almost impossible to break. You can see this not so much as an exchange of money for services, but akin to tribute that Australia pays to the US to be under its protection.
If the Western alliance chose to cut Israel off, then this would impair the West's use of F-35 jets as their own supply of certain components and access to IP would be compromised, at least temporarily. Worse, if the aim of this is to prevent Israel from using their F-35 jets... and they truly halted all trade with Israel - then what does Israel have to lose?
Since the US broke their commitments then Israel would just say they're entitled to sell the useless F-35 jets to Russia to reverse engineer, and in return Russia would be their new security partner - maybe in return, Russia would send them a squadron of SU-34s, SU-35s, maybe a battalion or two of TOS-1 Heavy Flamethrowers, and a few hundred thousand artillery shells. Actually, China would probably be a more interested buyer right now given Russia's present entanglement in Ukraine, but you get the point. This would be a devastating strategic blow to all West aligned nations.
Now sponsored by Russia or China and no longer held in check by a Western ally, Israel is free to completely purge then annex as much land as it likes similar to Russia taking Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, or follow China's lead in running mass "re-education" camps for several million Palestinians similar to what took (is taking?) place in Xinjiang. Unlike Ukraine, there is no way the US is going to be sending weapons to support Hamas or Hezbollah.
If you think things are dire now, they could be much much worse.
I'd bet good money Israel isn't invited to be a partner on the NGAD as a result of the last 9 months, and this is likely to be a watershed moment which will lead to Israel's isolation from the West over the next decade or so.
posted by xdvesper at 7:15 AM on August 9 [2 favorites]
“Never again” in any language should always be interpreted as “just as soon as we get the chance”
There are two interpretations of "Never Again."
1) "We, the Jewish people, must make sure this never happens again, to anyone."
2) "We must make sure this never happens again to us, the Jewish people."
There are plenty of people, many of us Jewish, who stand firmly with the first. But it's pretty fucking clear which one Bibi and his lackeys mean.
posted by Frayed Knot at 8:16 AM on August 9 [12 favorites]
There are two interpretations of "Never Again."
1) "We, the Jewish people, must make sure this never happens again, to anyone."
2) "We must make sure this never happens again to us, the Jewish people."
There are plenty of people, many of us Jewish, who stand firmly with the first. But it's pretty fucking clear which one Bibi and his lackeys mean.
posted by Frayed Knot at 8:16 AM on August 9 [12 favorites]
I'm sorry, but I just don't see how this logic works. This guy is so violent and unpredictable we have to keep arming him? He might do something crazy if he has less military resources, so we need to keep giving him weapons to carry out genocide?
The nightmare scenario is we stop supplying weapons completely, stocks run low, some combination of Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, and Hamas decide it's a good time to start throwing bodies at the border, Israel finds itself in a position where its very existence is threatened and Bibi makes use of the trump card that nobody has been willing to use since 1945.
This is not as outlandish a scenario as you might think. The order was already given once in 1967, but was not carried out because the tide turned as preparations were being made. This is a large part of why the US has been so chummy with Israel since, in a way it had not been in the previous 20 years.
The wingnut milleniarians have their own reasons and take the Israel "love" to a whole new extreme any time they are in power, but they aren't at the moment, so I'll not get into that whole thing again. Suffice it to say they're even more dangerous than the people in charge of Israel's government.
posted by wierdo at 8:35 AM on August 9
The nightmare scenario is we stop supplying weapons completely, stocks run low, some combination of Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, and Hamas decide it's a good time to start throwing bodies at the border, Israel finds itself in a position where its very existence is threatened and Bibi makes use of the trump card that nobody has been willing to use since 1945.
This is not as outlandish a scenario as you might think. The order was already given once in 1967, but was not carried out because the tide turned as preparations were being made. This is a large part of why the US has been so chummy with Israel since, in a way it had not been in the previous 20 years.
The wingnut milleniarians have their own reasons and take the Israel "love" to a whole new extreme any time they are in power, but they aren't at the moment, so I'll not get into that whole thing again. Suffice it to say they're even more dangerous than the people in charge of Israel's government.
posted by wierdo at 8:35 AM on August 9
The only way to solve the Middle East is to get rid of genocidal religious nuts of all flavours, they are all as bad as each other.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 8:58 AM on August 9
posted by GallonOfAlan at 8:58 AM on August 9
So anyway, it's always been very interesting to me to learn that one of America's main strategy to counter communism in the cold war was to foment support for rightwing religious conservatives which previously barely had any toehold in their societies, not until you pair it up with nationalism and anticolonial rhetoric. I'm still trying to figure out how much that was playing with fire especially as Israel became more captured by the right.
posted by cendawanita at 9:04 AM on August 9 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:04 AM on August 9 [4 favorites]
The only way to solve the Middle East is to get rid of genocidal religious nuts of all flavours, they are all as bad as each other.
a) some of the participants are definitely worse than each other! this kind of statement is a moral and intellectual abdication of the grossest kind - it would be better to say nothing at all.
b)Guess what: many of the enthusiastic participants in this particular set of atrocities are secular! and many of the opponents of continuing atrocities are religious!
while much of the origins of this conflict lie in religious belief.....even if you could magically erase religion (and its associated nuts) it would not fix this situation.
I say this as an atheist.
posted by lalochezia at 9:09 AM on August 9 [8 favorites]
a) some of the participants are definitely worse than each other! this kind of statement is a moral and intellectual abdication of the grossest kind - it would be better to say nothing at all.
b)Guess what: many of the enthusiastic participants in this particular set of atrocities are secular! and many of the opponents of continuing atrocities are religious!
while much of the origins of this conflict lie in religious belief.....even if you could magically erase religion (and its associated nuts) it would not fix this situation.
I say this as an atheist.
posted by lalochezia at 9:09 AM on August 9 [8 favorites]
The nightmare scenario is we stop supplying weapons completely, stocks run low, some combination of Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, and Hamas decide it's a good time to start throwing bodies at the border, Israel finds itself in a position where its very existence is threatened and Bibi makes use of the trump card that nobody has been willing to use since 1945.
If that's a genuine concern (and I very much don't think it is), perhaps that vulnerability would lead to Israel saving its munitions instead of using them to kill children. This involves the Israelis being so bloodthirsty they continue to use up dwindling resources so quickly they exhaust their military stockpiles despite Gaza being no threat to them, and unable to source any arms from anywhere else in the world, such that they cease to function as a modern military, and the Iranians being vicious enough to engage in mass slaughter at a huge cost to their own citizens welfare (including provoking an existential threat in a nuclear state) just to shed Israeli blood, and everyone believing the US will just not intervene to protect Israeli civilians and interests. I could buy a couple of those, but all of them at once seem pretty far fetched.
This feels to me like an attempt to make the policies of the US comprehensible on a moral, rather than electoral or geopolitical level. The idea that something must be tying the hands of American leaders for this to be happening. But I think the situation is explainable solely by reference to the interests of US leaders.
If Netanyahu was a genuine threat to US interests in the area (and if he were as trigger happy as he would have to be for this scenario to work, he would be) the US would have no qualms about removing him. We've backed coups, undermined elections, assassinated leaders, and invaded nations to produce "regime change".
If the threat is genuinely "we let him kill hundreds of thousands, or else he'll kill millions", the answer isn't to arm him so he can keep murdering Palestinians.
posted by pattern juggler at 9:55 AM on August 9 [10 favorites]
If that's a genuine concern (and I very much don't think it is), perhaps that vulnerability would lead to Israel saving its munitions instead of using them to kill children. This involves the Israelis being so bloodthirsty they continue to use up dwindling resources so quickly they exhaust their military stockpiles despite Gaza being no threat to them, and unable to source any arms from anywhere else in the world, such that they cease to function as a modern military, and the Iranians being vicious enough to engage in mass slaughter at a huge cost to their own citizens welfare (including provoking an existential threat in a nuclear state) just to shed Israeli blood, and everyone believing the US will just not intervene to protect Israeli civilians and interests. I could buy a couple of those, but all of them at once seem pretty far fetched.
This feels to me like an attempt to make the policies of the US comprehensible on a moral, rather than electoral or geopolitical level. The idea that something must be tying the hands of American leaders for this to be happening. But I think the situation is explainable solely by reference to the interests of US leaders.
If Netanyahu was a genuine threat to US interests in the area (and if he were as trigger happy as he would have to be for this scenario to work, he would be) the US would have no qualms about removing him. We've backed coups, undermined elections, assassinated leaders, and invaded nations to produce "regime change".
If the threat is genuinely "we let him kill hundreds of thousands, or else he'll kill millions", the answer isn't to arm him so he can keep murdering Palestinians.
posted by pattern juggler at 9:55 AM on August 9 [10 favorites]
If you think things are dire now, they could be much much worse.
Something like 1 in 12 Palestinians is already dead. The Israelis are taking anything they want and running rape camps. The idea that Israel is holding back because the US wouldn't put up with behavior that Russia or China would accept doesn't seem easy to support based on the evidence we have in front of us.
posted by pattern juggler at 10:07 AM on August 9 [16 favorites]
Something like 1 in 12 Palestinians is already dead. The Israelis are taking anything they want and running rape camps. The idea that Israel is holding back because the US wouldn't put up with behavior that Russia or China would accept doesn't seem easy to support based on the evidence we have in front of us.
posted by pattern juggler at 10:07 AM on August 9 [16 favorites]
Israel is dropping bombs at teh rate they can get ahold of bombs. I don’t see any way in which reducing the flow of bombs doesn’t reduces the rate of bombing.
posted by Artw at 10:21 AM on August 9 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:21 AM on August 9 [5 favorites]
If you think things are dire now, they could be much much worse.
This is like arguing that we should all be voting for Trump in 2024, because if we don't, conservatives are going to get more extreme. I've seen some ridiculous arguments around metafilter, but this one takes the cake.
posted by iamck at 11:13 AM on August 9 [5 favorites]
This is like arguing that we should all be voting for Trump in 2024, because if we don't, conservatives are going to get more extreme. I've seen some ridiculous arguments around metafilter, but this one takes the cake.
posted by iamck at 11:13 AM on August 9 [5 favorites]
Israeli strike kills senior Hamas figure in south Lebanon - "An Israeli airstrike on a car deep inside Lebanon killed a senior figure from Palestinian armed group Hamas on Friday evening, a Hamas source and two other security sources told Reuters. The strike, on the southern edges of the Lebanese port city of Sidon some 60 kilometres (nearly 40 miles) from the frontier, killed Samer al-Hajj, a Hamas security official who works in the nearby refugee camp for Palestinians, Ain al-Hilweh. His bodyguard was critically wounded, the three sources said."
no exit...
-Families flee new Israeli assault in Gaza's Khan Younis
-As war drums beat, those in Beirut suburb have nowhere to flee
posted by kliuless at 11:27 AM on August 9 [2 favorites]
no exit...
-Families flee new Israeli assault in Gaza's Khan Younis
-As war drums beat, those in Beirut suburb have nowhere to flee
posted by kliuless at 11:27 AM on August 9 [2 favorites]
Now sponsored by Russia or China and no longer held in check by a Western ally, Israel is free to completely purge then annex as much land as it likes similar to Russia taking Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, or follow China's lead in running mass "re-education" camps for several million Palestinians similar to what took (is taking?) place in Xinjiang. Unlike Ukraine, there is no way the US is going to be sending weapons to support Hamas or Hezbollah.
I think I say this every thread: We have TWO (2) carrier groups in the Med plus every fighter and bomber in Europe with range to get over Gaza and back that could enforce a no-fly zone and run counter-genocide campaigns via naval missile strikes on IDF forces in the strip and in Israel. And this is not farfetched bullshit posturing we have quite literally done this for this less.
We ran Operation Deliberate Force in the 90s after "just" 10,000 Bosnians had been killed in that genocide.
Israel is not surrounded by historically friendly states.
The McFucking Nanosecond we tell them it's over and rattle a saber, it's over.
posted by Slackermagee at 12:10 PM on August 9 [5 favorites]
I think I say this every thread: We have TWO (2) carrier groups in the Med plus every fighter and bomber in Europe with range to get over Gaza and back that could enforce a no-fly zone and run counter-genocide campaigns via naval missile strikes on IDF forces in the strip and in Israel. And this is not farfetched bullshit posturing we have quite literally done this for this less.
We ran Operation Deliberate Force in the 90s after "just" 10,000 Bosnians had been killed in that genocide.
Israel is not surrounded by historically friendly states.
The McFucking Nanosecond we tell them it's over and rattle a saber, it's over.
posted by Slackermagee at 12:10 PM on August 9 [5 favorites]
No sanctions for the Netzah Yehuda unit that killed a Palestinian American man.
Apparently Israel did not have the foresight to predict Hezbollah's growing drone power.
US will lift ban on offensive weapons sales to Saudi Arabia.
Hamas is demanding the release of Marwhan Barghouti as part of hostage exchange deal; US apparently supports this.
3 Israeli army refusers: Refusal is like holding up a mirror to Israeli society, first of all to show that it is possible to resist the militaristic death machine and the cycle of bloodshed. We don’t have to take part in it. It’s also a kind of platform that makes it possible to show Israeli society what’s happening beyond what you see in the media, which doesn’t really reveal what’s happening in Gaza and the West Bank.
The radicalization of Israel's army: And all these testimonies are coming out about the abuse of detainees. This gets out in CNN, and the New York Times, and all over the world, and there’s pressure to actually investigate and look into this. So the Military Advocate General sent the military police, to go and detain a few soldiers for questioning. And right away the call on the networks of the Israeli right is, “They’re coming after our soldiers.”
Everybody comes out. It’s the rank and file, it’s the base of the Likud and the national-religious ideologues. They want to change what’s acceptable in the I.D.F. And you can see it from October onwards with the amount of videos of soldiers talking about rebuilding settlements. All this kind of stuff, right? The erosion of discipline within the I.D.F. is very strong. And suddenly there is this real clash between rule of law, or the story the institution wants to tell the world, versus where the rank and file is. And you get what you saw, which is hundreds of people breaking into military bases in Israel, led by politicians. Ministers supporting them. You could barely find ministers here who are actually criticizing it.
posted by toastyk at 1:20 PM on August 9 [5 favorites]
Apparently Israel did not have the foresight to predict Hezbollah's growing drone power.
US will lift ban on offensive weapons sales to Saudi Arabia.
Hamas is demanding the release of Marwhan Barghouti as part of hostage exchange deal; US apparently supports this.
3 Israeli army refusers: Refusal is like holding up a mirror to Israeli society, first of all to show that it is possible to resist the militaristic death machine and the cycle of bloodshed. We don’t have to take part in it. It’s also a kind of platform that makes it possible to show Israeli society what’s happening beyond what you see in the media, which doesn’t really reveal what’s happening in Gaza and the West Bank.
The radicalization of Israel's army: And all these testimonies are coming out about the abuse of detainees. This gets out in CNN, and the New York Times, and all over the world, and there’s pressure to actually investigate and look into this. So the Military Advocate General sent the military police, to go and detain a few soldiers for questioning. And right away the call on the networks of the Israeli right is, “They’re coming after our soldiers.”
Everybody comes out. It’s the rank and file, it’s the base of the Likud and the national-religious ideologues. They want to change what’s acceptable in the I.D.F. And you can see it from October onwards with the amount of videos of soldiers talking about rebuilding settlements. All this kind of stuff, right? The erosion of discipline within the I.D.F. is very strong. And suddenly there is this real clash between rule of law, or the story the institution wants to tell the world, versus where the rank and file is. And you get what you saw, which is hundreds of people breaking into military bases in Israel, led by politicians. Ministers supporting them. You could barely find ministers here who are actually criticizing it.
posted by toastyk at 1:20 PM on August 9 [5 favorites]
I really need someone to explain to me the disconnect that American politicians, even the more "nicer" ones, have when it comes to Palestine:
Minnesota activists criticize Tim Walz for refusing to meet with Palestinian families:
So there’s that. Also, in 2019, Walz approved a $1.3 million Minnesota state taxpayer-funded grant to construct a Lockheed Martin facility in St. Paul, Minnesota, and didn’t just construct it quietly and shut up about it. He boasted about it and said that this was good news for Minnesota. He’s done that repeatedly despite the fact that we have packed his state investments meeting over and over for years on end.
People have testified. Like the staffers wanted at that meeting, they have cried all the sob stories, shared all the data, and shared all the human rights reports to prove how these investments are detrimental to Walz’s constituents. He’s done nothing about it. He has offered no sympathy for it and every single time when we come to that State Board of Investments meeting and we testify about these investments, there’s a blank look on his face and he calls up the next speaker. That’s it. There’s absolutely no engagement or empathy whatsoever.
And...that's the guy that taught his students enough about genocide to predict the Rwandan genocide.
Kamala Harris and Uncommitted - A Harris campaign spokesperson said the vice president has prioritized engagement with Arab, Muslim and Palestinian community members since Oct. 7. And in the brief interaction with members of the “Uncommitted” group on Wednesday, “she affirmed that her campaign will continue to engage with those communities.”
“The Vice President has been clear: she will always work to ensure Israel is able to defend itself against Iran and Iran-backed terrorist groups. The Vice President is focused on securing the ceasefire and hostage deal currently on the table. As she has said, it is time for this war to end in a way where: Israel is secure, hostages are released, the suffering of Palestinian civilians ends, and the Palestinian people can realize their right to dignity, freedom, and self-determination,” the Harris campaign said in a statement.
While unclear how prevalent the pro-Palestianian protests will be in the run-up to November, tens of thousands are still planning to demonstrate outside the Democratic National Convention in Chicago later this month, where Harris will make her acceptance speech. College students will also return to campus in the weeks ahead — potentially bringing a return to the pro-Palestinian encampments and protests that rocked the nation this spring.
Vibe Shift Won't Save Gaza - But look at that NBC quote again: “Bringing Gaza back into the foreground would just be awful.” In other words, Gaza was once in the foreground, but—thanks, presumably, to both Joe Biden’s exit from the 2024 race and Walz’s elevation over Shapiro—it has receded as an issue, leaving Harris with a much more united front going into November.
The quote highlights a risk from the wave of euphoria washing over parts of the left: that it will accelerate Gaza’s fade from the political agenda. This fading has occurred even though the genocide shows no signs of slowing and, just as crucially, even as Harris has provided no signs that she intends to meaningfully depart from Joe Biden’s approach to Gaza.
There has been discussion about Harris’s supposedly different “tone” when it comes to Gaza. But, as I have written elsewhere, this idea barely squares with the facts. Harris has occasionally sounded more critical notes than Biden, but if you look at the recent statements that the two have made about Gaza, you will find that the sentiments, and even many of the words, are identical. Both Biden and Harris talk about the “suffering” of Palestinians. Both have said that they want a ceasefire in Gaza. The notion of some deep split between their language is more fantasy than reality.
posted by toastyk at 4:53 PM on August 9 [1 favorite]
Minnesota activists criticize Tim Walz for refusing to meet with Palestinian families:
So there’s that. Also, in 2019, Walz approved a $1.3 million Minnesota state taxpayer-funded grant to construct a Lockheed Martin facility in St. Paul, Minnesota, and didn’t just construct it quietly and shut up about it. He boasted about it and said that this was good news for Minnesota. He’s done that repeatedly despite the fact that we have packed his state investments meeting over and over for years on end.
People have testified. Like the staffers wanted at that meeting, they have cried all the sob stories, shared all the data, and shared all the human rights reports to prove how these investments are detrimental to Walz’s constituents. He’s done nothing about it. He has offered no sympathy for it and every single time when we come to that State Board of Investments meeting and we testify about these investments, there’s a blank look on his face and he calls up the next speaker. That’s it. There’s absolutely no engagement or empathy whatsoever.
And...that's the guy that taught his students enough about genocide to predict the Rwandan genocide.
Kamala Harris and Uncommitted - A Harris campaign spokesperson said the vice president has prioritized engagement with Arab, Muslim and Palestinian community members since Oct. 7. And in the brief interaction with members of the “Uncommitted” group on Wednesday, “she affirmed that her campaign will continue to engage with those communities.”
“The Vice President has been clear: she will always work to ensure Israel is able to defend itself against Iran and Iran-backed terrorist groups. The Vice President is focused on securing the ceasefire and hostage deal currently on the table. As she has said, it is time for this war to end in a way where: Israel is secure, hostages are released, the suffering of Palestinian civilians ends, and the Palestinian people can realize their right to dignity, freedom, and self-determination,” the Harris campaign said in a statement.
While unclear how prevalent the pro-Palestianian protests will be in the run-up to November, tens of thousands are still planning to demonstrate outside the Democratic National Convention in Chicago later this month, where Harris will make her acceptance speech. College students will also return to campus in the weeks ahead — potentially bringing a return to the pro-Palestinian encampments and protests that rocked the nation this spring.
Vibe Shift Won't Save Gaza - But look at that NBC quote again: “Bringing Gaza back into the foreground would just be awful.” In other words, Gaza was once in the foreground, but—thanks, presumably, to both Joe Biden’s exit from the 2024 race and Walz’s elevation over Shapiro—it has receded as an issue, leaving Harris with a much more united front going into November.
The quote highlights a risk from the wave of euphoria washing over parts of the left: that it will accelerate Gaza’s fade from the political agenda. This fading has occurred even though the genocide shows no signs of slowing and, just as crucially, even as Harris has provided no signs that she intends to meaningfully depart from Joe Biden’s approach to Gaza.
There has been discussion about Harris’s supposedly different “tone” when it comes to Gaza. But, as I have written elsewhere, this idea barely squares with the facts. Harris has occasionally sounded more critical notes than Biden, but if you look at the recent statements that the two have made about Gaza, you will find that the sentiments, and even many of the words, are identical. Both Biden and Harris talk about the “suffering” of Palestinians. Both have said that they want a ceasefire in Gaza. The notion of some deep split between their language is more fantasy than reality.
posted by toastyk at 4:53 PM on August 9 [1 favorite]
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posted by cendawanita at 10:33 AM on August 8 [8 favorites]