What regressive warmed-over hell is this?
August 12, 2024 9:35 PM Subscribe
Pop has moved on. Someone needs to tell Katy Perry. Katy Perry's latest two singles have been utter flops, falling off the radar within days. We all loved Hot n Cold but it ain't 2008 no more and pop has drastically moved on.
Single#1:Woman's Word
an entirely bland, toothless "rah rah women" anthem-wanna-be with a video that Katy later explained was satire but it is it (good) satire if you have to explain it? Is it really an empowerment anthem when you worked with Dr Luke?
Single#2: Lifetimes
an entirely bland 90s dance track about love across lifetimes but hey at least we're having fun on the beach right?
Listen, we know the girl had bangers. She captured an era - the late 2000s early 2010s optimism and absurd bubblegum goofiness, the peak of internet but before social media really took off (for better or for worse). Here's another KP Palate cleanser.
In 2024, her latest singles have failed to capture streams, with criticisms of being both musically dated and lyrically hollow. Katy Perry's fall off needs to be studied. It's more than just a career mistep; she has not grasped how the pop landscape has fundamentally changed. We the audience demand more depth from our pop stars. Unfair? Not at all. Pop reflects the culture, and the culture has changed. We are not satisfied with a few rah-rahs; nor will some surface level introspection satisfy us. As individuals and as a society we've been through too much these last few years to feel carefree right now. We want grit and self exploration and honesty.
So who is killing it in the 2020s? Chappell Roan! Her Pink Pony Club is a gloriously updated Girls Just Wanna Have Fun for the Gen Z set, or Good Luck Babe admonishing an ex-lover for hiding in heterosexuality. Similiarly Billie Eilish's sexy and explicit Lunch and stunning, Oscar winning What was I Made For? Hell even Taylor Swift has completed this pop culture metamorphosis, albeit slowly, first dipping her toes into emotional grit via her character-driven Folklore/Evermore, before becoming more personally revealing in Midnights; the transformation from country sweetheart to hot mess is completed with Female Rage the Musical... ahem... Tortured Poets Department.
Katy's new album 143 drops Sept 20th.
Single#1:Woman's Word
an entirely bland, toothless "rah rah women" anthem-wanna-be with a video that Katy later explained was satire but it is it (good) satire if you have to explain it? Is it really an empowerment anthem when you worked with Dr Luke?
Single#2: Lifetimes
an entirely bland 90s dance track about love across lifetimes but hey at least we're having fun on the beach right?
Listen, we know the girl had bangers. She captured an era - the late 2000s early 2010s optimism and absurd bubblegum goofiness, the peak of internet but before social media really took off (for better or for worse). Here's another KP Palate cleanser.
In 2024, her latest singles have failed to capture streams, with criticisms of being both musically dated and lyrically hollow. Katy Perry's fall off needs to be studied. It's more than just a career mistep; she has not grasped how the pop landscape has fundamentally changed. We the audience demand more depth from our pop stars. Unfair? Not at all. Pop reflects the culture, and the culture has changed. We are not satisfied with a few rah-rahs; nor will some surface level introspection satisfy us. As individuals and as a society we've been through too much these last few years to feel carefree right now. We want grit and self exploration and honesty.
So who is killing it in the 2020s? Chappell Roan! Her Pink Pony Club is a gloriously updated Girls Just Wanna Have Fun for the Gen Z set, or Good Luck Babe admonishing an ex-lover for hiding in heterosexuality. Similiarly Billie Eilish's sexy and explicit Lunch and stunning, Oscar winning What was I Made For? Hell even Taylor Swift has completed this pop culture metamorphosis, albeit slowly, first dipping her toes into emotional grit via her character-driven Folklore/Evermore, before becoming more personally revealing in Midnights; the transformation from country sweetheart to hot mess is completed with Female Rage the Musical... ahem... Tortured Poets Department.
Katy's new album 143 drops Sept 20th.
And the complaints have started early, yes.
Most of them have been "really, Dr.Luke for a feminist song?!?!"
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:52 PM on August 12 [18 favorites]
Most of them have been "really, Dr.Luke for a feminist song?!?!"
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:52 PM on August 12 [18 favorites]
The singles are out.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:00 PM on August 12
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:00 PM on August 12
Eh, I find it hard to agree with the thrust of this post; Katy Perry has nothing to prove. There's tens of thousands of bands (if not hundreds of thousands? millions?) that are making music with no expectations of commercial success, following the sounds and ideas they want to pursue. She's not lacking for money and many, many artists have released bad albums that haven't diminished their legacy - Beach Boys, Rolling Stones, and the Pixies all come to mind. She doesn't owe the pop world anything.
posted by LSK at 10:09 PM on August 12 [23 favorites]
posted by LSK at 10:09 PM on August 12 [23 favorites]
Required viewing: Todd in the Shadows take on Witness, which is probably really where KP lost the thread, then did kind of a 180.
posted by alex_skazat at 10:13 PM on August 12 [8 favorites]
posted by alex_skazat at 10:13 PM on August 12 [8 favorites]
What a strange post. Did Katy Perry shoot your dog or something?
posted by Crane Shot at 10:13 PM on August 12 [47 favorites]
posted by Crane Shot at 10:13 PM on August 12 [47 favorites]
Yeah... the latest Katy Perry releases are just bland... Not really worth a post I think.
posted by Pendragon at 10:41 PM on August 12 [2 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 10:41 PM on August 12 [2 favorites]
"woman's world" had such a negative reaction on tiktok that for a while there was the belief that katy perry had disabled embeds of the song.
however one feels about tiktok, i've come to the sense that it does tend to... presage what the public is feeling, to reference another recent cultural event. like--cascada, of all groups, is being heard in a lot more places and it's been trending on the tiktoks for the past few months. same with chappell roan's explosive rise to fame; she was everywhere on lesbian, then queer, then straight tiktok starting late last year.
posted by i used to be someone else at 10:42 PM on August 12 [7 favorites]
however one feels about tiktok, i've come to the sense that it does tend to... presage what the public is feeling, to reference another recent cultural event. like--cascada, of all groups, is being heard in a lot more places and it's been trending on the tiktoks for the past few months. same with chappell roan's explosive rise to fame; she was everywhere on lesbian, then queer, then straight tiktok starting late last year.
posted by i used to be someone else at 10:42 PM on August 12 [7 favorites]
Did Katy Perry shoot your dog or something?
Katy Perry’s stalling stardom is, in fact, a topic of discussion elsewhere on the internet.
posted by atoxyl at 10:45 PM on August 12 [52 favorites]
Katy Perry’s stalling stardom is, in fact, a topic of discussion elsewhere on the internet.
posted by atoxyl at 10:45 PM on August 12 [52 favorites]
I do think it's interesting how one can so totally misread the Zeitgeist (and their presumed target group). Couldn't even bring myself to finish watching the Woman's World music video, because of the second-hand embarrassement. Sure, it's clearly satire, but the idea that is mocked is the notion of female empowerment - how could that be empowering?
I mean, I don't claim there could never be anything that's potentially mock-worthy about feminism - you could argue the satire here is not directed against feminism in general, but a specific wave of feminism, girlboss-feminism, "look at how sexually liberated I am to sexually objectify-myself"- choice feminism (saying that as someone who does actually have a soft spot for a little girlboss feminism/choice feminism on occasion, but I can see the criticism). That could be interesting, coming from someone representing credible alternatives, which however Dr. Luke and someone co-operating with Dr. Luke definitely aren't.
Like, seriously, who are they trying to appeal to with this?
posted by sohalt at 10:52 PM on August 12 [16 favorites]
I mean, I don't claim there could never be anything that's potentially mock-worthy about feminism - you could argue the satire here is not directed against feminism in general, but a specific wave of feminism, girlboss-feminism, "look at how sexually liberated I am to sexually objectify-myself"- choice feminism (saying that as someone who does actually have a soft spot for a little girlboss feminism/choice feminism on occasion, but I can see the criticism). That could be interesting, coming from someone representing credible alternatives, which however Dr. Luke and someone co-operating with Dr. Luke definitely aren't.
Like, seriously, who are they trying to appeal to with this?
posted by sohalt at 10:52 PM on August 12 [16 favorites]
I didn't realize until about fifteen minutes ago that Katy Perry was arguably the most popular person on the planet a decade ago. Which I suppose makes her having a few flops a certain kind of relevant.
fame is weird.
posted by philip-random at 10:58 PM on August 12 [3 favorites]
fame is weird.
posted by philip-random at 10:58 PM on August 12 [3 favorites]
Say it with me now: Regression to the mutha-flippin mean, mutha flippas!
posted by kaibutsu at 11:05 PM on August 12 [4 favorites]
posted by kaibutsu at 11:05 PM on August 12 [4 favorites]
So who is killing it in the 2020s? Chappell Roan!
There was a recent 'close reading' of Chappell Roan on a subsite of the LA Review of Books: Catherine Zimmer, "A Feminomenology of Chappell Roan." It's interesting and tries to introduce her work to new listeners, though some of it is based on a metaphorical use of 'analog' that specifically excludes acoustic instrumentation, where Chappell Roan did do a fun Tiny Desk Concert.
Similiarly Billie Eilish
I understand maybe a remix of her recent song "Chihiro" has gone viral on TikTok in Brazil, e.g. as in Giovanna Petrucci's slacklining video, "It's not Olympic but it's a sport."
posted by Wobbuffet at 11:05 PM on August 12 [7 favorites]
There was a recent 'close reading' of Chappell Roan on a subsite of the LA Review of Books: Catherine Zimmer, "A Feminomenology of Chappell Roan." It's interesting and tries to introduce her work to new listeners, though some of it is based on a metaphorical use of 'analog' that specifically excludes acoustic instrumentation, where Chappell Roan did do a fun Tiny Desk Concert.
Similiarly Billie Eilish
I understand maybe a remix of her recent song "Chihiro" has gone viral on TikTok in Brazil, e.g. as in Giovanna Petrucci's slacklining video, "It's not Olympic but it's a sport."
posted by Wobbuffet at 11:05 PM on August 12 [7 favorites]
Katy Perry’s stalling stardom is, in fact, a topic of discussion elsewhere on the internet.
This is true of a lot of things, and not a defense of any of them, at any point in history.
posted by aramaic at 11:05 PM on August 12 [8 favorites]
This is true of a lot of things, and not a defense of any of them, at any point in history.
posted by aramaic at 11:05 PM on August 12 [8 favorites]
I am not offering a judgement on the practice of pop star metacommentary, I am just pointing out that it is non-strange in the sense that it is actually fairly popular.
posted by atoxyl at 11:11 PM on August 12 [1 favorite]
posted by atoxyl at 11:11 PM on August 12 [1 favorite]
This is true of a lot of things, and not a defense of any of them, at any point in history.
It doesn't automatically establish relevance for metafilter, but it is a valid counter to the accusation of pursuing a personal vendetta. Katy Perry can't have killed all these people's dogs.
posted by sohalt at 11:12 PM on August 12 [10 favorites]
It doesn't automatically establish relevance for metafilter, but it is a valid counter to the accusation of pursuing a personal vendetta. Katy Perry can't have killed all these people's dogs.
posted by sohalt at 11:12 PM on August 12 [10 favorites]
She killed a few of mine. No joke.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 11:24 PM on August 12 [8 favorites]
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 11:24 PM on August 12 [8 favorites]
Look If you’re not into pop culture meta commentary there are plenty of other FPP to choose from there’s no reason to start threadshitting.
Like, I actually put time and effort to into writing this FPP. I’m legitimately interested in metafilter’s non shitty take on the direction of pop culture and what Katy Perry’s recent mark-miss indicates.
PS the title comes from the guardian article review of her first single if anyone is reading the actual links.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 11:52 PM on August 12 [113 favorites]
Like, I actually put time and effort to into writing this FPP. I’m legitimately interested in metafilter’s non shitty take on the direction of pop culture and what Katy Perry’s recent mark-miss indicates.
PS the title comes from the guardian article review of her first single if anyone is reading the actual links.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 11:52 PM on August 12 [113 favorites]
A lot of music discussions on metafilter tend to devolve into “well I keep my music collection as mp3s/a bookshelf of CDs/thermo-regulated wax cylinders” so I’m not surprised that the idea of Perry as out of vogue seems wild. I’m glad; not because I hate Katie Perry, but because I want to see the cultural hegemony of the long 90s broken.
posted by The River Ivel at 11:59 PM on August 12 [11 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 11:59 PM on August 12 [11 favorites]
I feel so weird about all of this. She was so huge and then kind of faded away with some weirdly public bad relationships and now she is coming back in such a hamfisted way. Doesn't she have "people" around her? I don't want to take away from her agency (in the sense of her ability to make decisions for herself, not meaning her management company), but I kind of assume there must be layers of advisors. Were they all asleep at the switch?
Also, re the meta commentary about what is and what is not worthy of posting here: if you don't like it don't read it. If this were a post about Britney I would be much more grumpy about this point, but I only have a passing interest in Katie Perry's music so I will let you all off with a warning this time.
posted by Literaryhero at 12:09 AM on August 13 [5 favorites]
Also, re the meta commentary about what is and what is not worthy of posting here: if you don't like it don't read it. If this were a post about Britney I would be much more grumpy about this point, but I only have a passing interest in Katie Perry's music so I will let you all off with a warning this time.
posted by Literaryhero at 12:09 AM on August 13 [5 favorites]
It’s a good post, bront
The Chappell Roan contrast is a very interesting one. I think Roan has a much greater chance of career longevity: she’s a legit musician and songwriter in a way that Katy Perry isn’t, and perhaps that’s the wider Metafilter worthy point here: that manufactured vibes have a very finite lifespan, and how that’s interesting to witness.
Also, that rising chord progression in Pink Pony Club is absolute perfection. I’d love to read an FPP on why it’s so good.
posted by DangerIsMyMiddleName at 12:45 AM on August 13 [11 favorites]
The Chappell Roan contrast is a very interesting one. I think Roan has a much greater chance of career longevity: she’s a legit musician and songwriter in a way that Katy Perry isn’t, and perhaps that’s the wider Metafilter worthy point here: that manufactured vibes have a very finite lifespan, and how that’s interesting to witness.
Also, that rising chord progression in Pink Pony Club is absolute perfection. I’d love to read an FPP on why it’s so good.
posted by DangerIsMyMiddleName at 12:45 AM on August 13 [11 favorites]
Also, that rising chord progression in Pink Pony Club is absolute perfection. I’d love to read an FPP on why it’s so good.
i saw a tiktok video that was by a person with a music degree of sorts but it turns out all of her explanations were a setup for the punchline "you're gay", which. fair. and so i had to send it to all of my other queer chappell roan fan friends
posted by i used to be someone else at 1:04 AM on August 13 [16 favorites]
i saw a tiktok video that was by a person with a music degree of sorts but it turns out all of her explanations were a setup for the punchline "you're gay", which. fair. and so i had to send it to all of my other queer chappell roan fan friends
posted by i used to be someone else at 1:04 AM on August 13 [16 favorites]
Mod note: No deletions at this point, but yes, please leave off the metacommentary. And in general, if you think a post shouldn't be on Metafilter, you flag it rather than disrupt the conversation people are having. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 1:17 AM on August 13 [23 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 1:17 AM on August 13 [23 favorites]
I enjoyed the way this Pitchfork hatchet-job gradually ramped up, leaving the last (final) words to someone else.
posted by Joeruckus at 2:25 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
posted by Joeruckus at 2:25 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
I don't seek out pop music so for me to be aware of someone means something. Katy Perry is definitely a someone, and I've equally had thoughts of "whatever happened to her?" because she and her music was so ubiquitous for a while.
I had related thoughts/musings when watching Avril Lavigne at Glastonbury this year. Here's a woman in her 40s, still dressing like an angsty teenager in the early 2000s. She was excellent, don't get me wrong, and several of her songs are genuine classics (and there's far more of them than you'd think), but I did wonder about the person and what her relationship must be to the music she's been performing for two decades.
Like Katy Perry, she's not really moved on with the times, but with a key difference to Perry: she's weathered the passage of time by not really trying to change. She's like a pop AC/DC: if you like the old stuff you'll like the new stuff because it's the same stuff.
Someone who has stayed relevant is Kylie Minogue. She's been coming out with fresh sounding pop/dance club bangers since the 80s. She's never the #1 for the decade, but she's still near the top every decade. She's not so much reinvented herself as just kept up with the times and understood what catchy music means in each decade. This article from the Guardian (from 2020) is worth a read.
posted by slimepuppy at 2:41 AM on August 13 [13 favorites]
I had related thoughts/musings when watching Avril Lavigne at Glastonbury this year. Here's a woman in her 40s, still dressing like an angsty teenager in the early 2000s. She was excellent, don't get me wrong, and several of her songs are genuine classics (and there's far more of them than you'd think), but I did wonder about the person and what her relationship must be to the music she's been performing for two decades.
Like Katy Perry, she's not really moved on with the times, but with a key difference to Perry: she's weathered the passage of time by not really trying to change. She's like a pop AC/DC: if you like the old stuff you'll like the new stuff because it's the same stuff.
Someone who has stayed relevant is Kylie Minogue. She's been coming out with fresh sounding pop/dance club bangers since the 80s. She's never the #1 for the decade, but she's still near the top every decade. She's not so much reinvented herself as just kept up with the times and understood what catchy music means in each decade. This article from the Guardian (from 2020) is worth a read.
posted by slimepuppy at 2:41 AM on August 13 [13 favorites]
So I just listened to the single mix of "Woman's World."
* Beats thump, fat synths and tasty chord progression. Not Beethoven, but doesn't need to be.
* I love the autotuning alternating between an octave range and autotuning to a rap monotone. I it loved in "Teenage Dream" too. What are you gonna do?
* The politics are ... simple? That's dog-bites-man in pop lyrics, nay?
posted by MattD at 2:47 AM on August 13 [1 favorite]
* Beats thump, fat synths and tasty chord progression. Not Beethoven, but doesn't need to be.
* I love the autotuning alternating between an octave range and autotuning to a rap monotone. I it loved in "Teenage Dream" too. What are you gonna do?
* The politics are ... simple? That's dog-bites-man in pop lyrics, nay?
posted by MattD at 2:47 AM on August 13 [1 favorite]
I’m not super into Avril Lavigne, but she has attempted a few different styles—she went through a CCM phase a few years ago—and none of them did well critically or commercially, so she’s back to the mall punk/balladeer well. The AC/DC comparison is apt.
posted by pxe2000 at 3:00 AM on August 13
posted by pxe2000 at 3:00 AM on August 13
This just seems mean. Most people don't ever have ANY pop hits, you know?
posted by OnceUponATime at 3:22 AM on August 13 [8 favorites]
posted by OnceUponATime at 3:22 AM on August 13 [8 favorites]
Joeruckus/Pitchfork wins the thread. lol
We've always had lots of lyrically bad pop. Afaik Katy Perry songs were all lyrically hollow during her popular phase too, so yeah "please stop" indeed. I doubt bad pop stops so easily though, so instead of comparing Katy Perry to far more talelnted people, maybe we should ask: Among todays major pop artists, who really does not warrant listening to?
We could also admire the goat remixes of Firework and Roar by Katy Perry. And Party In The USA by Miley Cyrus and Trouble by Taylor Swift. It's Skrillex who really put goatstep on the map though.
posted by jeffburdges at 3:22 AM on August 13 [1 favorite]
We've always had lots of lyrically bad pop. Afaik Katy Perry songs were all lyrically hollow during her popular phase too, so yeah "please stop" indeed. I doubt bad pop stops so easily though, so instead of comparing Katy Perry to far more talelnted people, maybe we should ask: Among todays major pop artists, who really does not warrant listening to?
We could also admire the goat remixes of Firework and Roar by Katy Perry. And Party In The USA by Miley Cyrus and Trouble by Taylor Swift. It's Skrillex who really put goatstep on the map though.
posted by jeffburdges at 3:22 AM on August 13 [1 favorite]
Eh. If I went to a baseball game and I saw Hank Aaron strike out twice — and then some character in the next seat observed that “Hank Aaron’s fall off needs to be studied” — I don’t know that I’d agree. Maybe he’s having a bad stretch. Maybe it’s just statistical variance. Maybe it’s even possible that how loudly the fans scream has nothing to do with the quality of his work!
posted by PaulVario at 4:01 AM on August 13 [7 favorites]
posted by PaulVario at 4:01 AM on August 13 [7 favorites]
Solid post, St. Peepsburg. Fuck the naysayers, they don't mean a thing.
posted by Diskeater at 4:18 AM on August 13 [5 favorites]
posted by Diskeater at 4:18 AM on August 13 [5 favorites]
But this post is just saying nay to Katy Perry?
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:24 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:24 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
Chappell Roan's music has depth? More than Katy Perry? I'm honestly asking. I would have assumed they were pop and equal, from what little I know of the new kid.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:43 AM on August 13
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:43 AM on August 13
(I didn't mean to italicize Chappell Roan)
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:49 AM on August 13
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:49 AM on August 13
I think Roan has a much greater chance of career longevity
I think exactly the opposite--Roan's artistic sensitivity is going to be the (figurative) death of her. She doesn't like fame, she's young and fearful, and her audience loves her now but will totally eat her alive. I think she's going to burn out pretty badly--that much touring, that much obsessive love from the fans, it's corrosive. But this is a pop music opinion I'd be really happy to be wrong about!!!
Meanwhile there's Charli, whose cultural moment is already co-opted, in probably the most hyperpop thing that ever happened, with an album that is shockingly brilliant. And it pains me to say that because I've had such a hate-hate relationship with her music over the years, I have really not liked her whole pop persona, but brat finally won me over.
But both of these artists have a propulsive energy and bring a real sense of themselves to the music. There's a vulnerability that shows you it's a high-wire act, we're having fun now but there's a chance we're going to pay forever, that takes this from artificial "press button for #1 hit" to something that feels human and stays with you.
posted by mittens at 4:49 AM on August 13 [12 favorites]
I think exactly the opposite--Roan's artistic sensitivity is going to be the (figurative) death of her. She doesn't like fame, she's young and fearful, and her audience loves her now but will totally eat her alive. I think she's going to burn out pretty badly--that much touring, that much obsessive love from the fans, it's corrosive. But this is a pop music opinion I'd be really happy to be wrong about!!!
Meanwhile there's Charli, whose cultural moment is already co-opted, in probably the most hyperpop thing that ever happened, with an album that is shockingly brilliant. And it pains me to say that because I've had such a hate-hate relationship with her music over the years, I have really not liked her whole pop persona, but brat finally won me over.
But both of these artists have a propulsive energy and bring a real sense of themselves to the music. There's a vulnerability that shows you it's a high-wire act, we're having fun now but there's a chance we're going to pay forever, that takes this from artificial "press button for #1 hit" to something that feels human and stays with you.
posted by mittens at 4:49 AM on August 13 [12 favorites]
Christ, this site is trash at discussing things coded young/feminine/mainstream. Not sure if you've heard, but pop culture is actually a valid site for cultural analysis!
Some other writing I've enjoyed that touches on Katy Perry:
posted by sagc at 4:52 AM on August 13 [51 favorites]
Some other writing I've enjoyed that touches on Katy Perry:
- Katherine St Asaph in Stereogum, on the larger sounds of the summer and how Perry completely failed to match them, as well as the history of Dr Luke's return to public life
- Some very scathing reviews from the Singles Jukebox crew
posted by sagc at 4:52 AM on August 13 [51 favorites]
Mittens: Charli also has a full decade plus of moderate popularity, with various different eras. I'm curious if Chappell Roan will have staying power in that sense, as well - I'm not sure if she's going to be quite so aesthetically flexible, in terms of not sounding very dated in a few years.
posted by sagc at 4:56 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
posted by sagc at 4:56 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
I think some commenters in this thread have failed to grasp the distinction between “Katy Perry should not be analyzed” and “This particular comment about Katy Perry is bad analysis.” It is possible to believe one of these statements and not the other, you know!
posted by PaulVario at 5:04 AM on August 13 [5 favorites]
posted by PaulVario at 5:04 AM on August 13 [5 favorites]
There were a good few years when I kept getting Katy Perry and Taylor Swift mixed up, but mainly because I had no real connection to pop music and was only overhearing it as An Old. But in the last few years I've started listening purposefully. Yes, it's very lab-manufactured now rather than singer-songwriter, but that's been true for most of popular music history.
It's fascinating to watch Ariana Grande go from horny to introspective, to watch Miley Cyrus struggle to put together an identity. There's a cruelty to a business that relies so heavily on youth, but it's been that way for longer than my lifetime. None of the Beatles ever matched the songs they wrote in their 20s later on. It's hard to retire from something that made you a superstar even if you lose the spark.
posted by rikschell at 5:08 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
It's fascinating to watch Ariana Grande go from horny to introspective, to watch Miley Cyrus struggle to put together an identity. There's a cruelty to a business that relies so heavily on youth, but it's been that way for longer than my lifetime. None of the Beatles ever matched the songs they wrote in their 20s later on. It's hard to retire from something that made you a superstar even if you lose the spark.
posted by rikschell at 5:08 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
As a young teen I was desperate for anything that spoke to my feelings about sex and sexuality from a female perspective. Tori and Polly and Bjork were so important for this ( and not Alanis, for me, interestingly) but it was kind of couched and coded despite being explicit. At that point I'd have lost my mind had Casual been a mainstream hit back then. It's the sheer directness of it that feels fresh and new but it's also incredibly specific to a particular stage of young womanhood.
Whereas the bland but brilliant bubblegum of peak KP may persist in a 'fun mix for a general party vibe', it was never going for the jugular. They are apples and oranges to me.
posted by freya_lamb at 5:42 AM on August 13 [11 favorites]
Whereas the bland but brilliant bubblegum of peak KP may persist in a 'fun mix for a general party vibe', it was never going for the jugular. They are apples and oranges to me.
posted by freya_lamb at 5:42 AM on August 13 [11 favorites]
Katy Perry's flop and fall from the zeitgeist is interesting as seen in context of the women who are forming the new voice of pop music. Chappell Roan, Billie Eilish, and Charli XCX have all been mentioned above and are all making pop music that is so much more relevant than anything Katy Perry can do or has ever done. Add Olivia Rodrigo, Dua Lipa, and Sabrina Carpenter to that list. Pop music is a lot of fun right now. I'm an old and I'm listening to it more now than I have in decades. The big difference between now and Katy Perry's prime is that pop from these women feels more personal, authentic, and more often than not, openly queer. Perry seems downright conservative in comparison.
posted by thecjm at 6:06 AM on August 13 [15 favorites]
posted by thecjm at 6:06 AM on August 13 [15 favorites]
This just seems mean. Most people don't ever have ANY pop hits, you know?
I do think it is legitimately interesting how someone who once captured and defined the pop music landscape has misread it so badly now. Is her team that out of touch? They completely fumbled a moment in which it seemed like pop music fans were prepared to embrace a new Katy Perry album with a bad sounding and politically dire (re the Dr. Luke stuff at the very least) single. It sounds like ChatGPT wrote a song based on the prompt "upbeat women's pop from the Hillary Clinton girlboss era".
posted by hepta at 6:07 AM on August 13 [6 favorites]
I do think it is legitimately interesting how someone who once captured and defined the pop music landscape has misread it so badly now. Is her team that out of touch? They completely fumbled a moment in which it seemed like pop music fans were prepared to embrace a new Katy Perry album with a bad sounding and politically dire (re the Dr. Luke stuff at the very least) single. It sounds like ChatGPT wrote a song based on the prompt "upbeat women's pop from the Hillary Clinton girlboss era".
posted by hepta at 6:07 AM on August 13 [6 favorites]
stunning, Oscar winning What was I Made For?
Hot take: this is a bad song and won an Oscar as a proxy for other better songs from the same movie and/or the same artist. The Oscars are also just plain bad at songs.
posted by Artw at 6:10 AM on August 13 [8 favorites]
Hot take: this is a bad song and won an Oscar as a proxy for other better songs from the same movie and/or the same artist. The Oscars are also just plain bad at songs.
posted by Artw at 6:10 AM on August 13 [8 favorites]
Aging musician who was once the center of the zeitgeist tries to recapture the zeitgeist using the same formula and fails, news at 11.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:27 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:27 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
I mean... 40-ish pop stars sometimes lose their ability to produce popular songs.
Now if we can find some way to pin this on Russell Brand, I'm interested. Would also settle for this being Orlando Bloom's fault.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:27 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
Now if we can find some way to pin this on Russell Brand, I'm interested. Would also settle for this being Orlando Bloom's fault.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:27 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
Katy Perry's flop era is so fascinating to me. I genuinely like Teenage Dream - sure, Katy Perry has always put out fairly generic pop, but catchy generic pop that I have some nostalgia for. To see her put out such a bad single - and have absolutely no awareness that it's bad - it's just a reminder that there's a solid subset of pop stars who got lucky with the people around them, and don't actually have good taste themselves. Compared to Chappell Roan, Billie Eilish, and Charli XCX - who all notably have an artistic vision/voice - it really sticks out.
I liked the anecdote that she offered her Woman's World song to the Harris campaign but they very kindly declined.
posted by catcafe at 6:28 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
I liked the anecdote that she offered her Woman's World song to the Harris campaign but they very kindly declined.
posted by catcafe at 6:28 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
I heard that same anecdote about several other pop stars...I wonder how many offer songs to candidates.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:39 AM on August 13
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:39 AM on August 13
I mean, jeez, people. I'm an old who rarely finds a new act that they want to listen to these days (although I did get "Espresso" because It's Just That Catchy), but even I can appreciate that a conversation should be had about this Dr. Luke asshole, certainly.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:44 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:44 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
this site is trash at discussing things coded young/feminine/mainstream
It really is! If you want to get a sense of just how dude-coded this site can be, pick anything, ANYTHING, that women like and watch the "ugh this is just bullshit hold on while I go listen to my sweet indie vinyl which is real music" threadshitting happen.
I joke that I am always the last to catch on to any new pop music because I don't watch TikTok/don't have kids/etc, but I will give a shoutout to my two teenage nieces for putting me onto Chappell Roan and Sabrina Carpenter. Chappell especially is dope. I love a queer Southerner! The Katy Perry song was just so bad, like so not good. And Katy had to have known that the whole Dr. Luke involvement was gonna torpedo the single.
posted by Kitteh at 6:47 AM on August 13 [18 favorites]
It really is! If you want to get a sense of just how dude-coded this site can be, pick anything, ANYTHING, that women like and watch the "ugh this is just bullshit hold on while I go listen to my sweet indie vinyl which is real music" threadshitting happen.
I joke that I am always the last to catch on to any new pop music because I don't watch TikTok/don't have kids/etc, but I will give a shoutout to my two teenage nieces for putting me onto Chappell Roan and Sabrina Carpenter. Chappell especially is dope. I love a queer Southerner! The Katy Perry song was just so bad, like so not good. And Katy had to have known that the whole Dr. Luke involvement was gonna torpedo the single.
posted by Kitteh at 6:47 AM on August 13 [18 favorites]
Katy Perry's flop era is so fascinating to me.
Agreeing... I mean, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it, but it wasn't that long ago that there was actually a debate over who was bigger, Katy Perry or Taylor Swift. And now it seems silly that we ever even considered that.
Just want to add that as a semi-old dude, I appreciate St. Peepsburg for making the post, and especially for opening a window to Chappell Roan, about whim I've been curious for a while but didn't have the needed nudge and pointers to check out. Thanks!
posted by martin q blank at 6:49 AM on August 13 [6 favorites]
Agreeing... I mean, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it, but it wasn't that long ago that there was actually a debate over who was bigger, Katy Perry or Taylor Swift. And now it seems silly that we ever even considered that.
Just want to add that as a semi-old dude, I appreciate St. Peepsburg for making the post, and especially for opening a window to Chappell Roan, about whim I've been curious for a while but didn't have the needed nudge and pointers to check out. Thanks!
posted by martin q blank at 6:49 AM on August 13 [6 favorites]
Things can change in a second. One hit song, and all the flops are forgotten.
posted by chaz at 6:55 AM on August 13 [5 favorites]
posted by chaz at 6:55 AM on August 13 [5 favorites]
Seeing the songs put next to each other like this really makes it obvious how pop music has changed a lot in the past 20 years.
I'm another who's not listening to much new music these days and I'm glad to see more singers who are focused on singing if that makes sense. The new stuff sort of feels more Stevie Nicks throughbackish to this uneducated listener.
posted by Art_Pot at 6:58 AM on August 13 [1 favorite]
I'm another who's not listening to much new music these days and I'm glad to see more singers who are focused on singing if that makes sense. The new stuff sort of feels more Stevie Nicks throughbackish to this uneducated listener.
posted by Art_Pot at 6:58 AM on August 13 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I think the fascinating aspect of this is that Perry is the frontperson for a team of people who've historically had remarkably sharp instincts, and these are just such clunkers that it almost seems deliberate, like sabotage, but probably more likely just a room full of people high off their own supply thinking every idea is gold rather than doing whatever it is they used to do to find gold.
But I also wonder if this signals the end of the Swedish Hitmaking Machine Era (I know, most of the main players aren't even Swedish these days, but the framework remains). I feel like Taylor Swift made a distinct pivot away to indie producers ahead of the curve, and many of Perry's original pop peers are in a sort of semi-retirement at least from pop music.
I know there's been a number of cultural analyses in the past decades about how consumer taste swings with the economy - horror movies, for example. 5-10-20 years from now we'll be able to start analyzing the "post"-pandemic (I know, it's not over, but I guess maybe call it post-lockdowns) trends in pop culture and probably see this shift in more context.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:00 AM on August 13 [10 favorites]
But I also wonder if this signals the end of the Swedish Hitmaking Machine Era (I know, most of the main players aren't even Swedish these days, but the framework remains). I feel like Taylor Swift made a distinct pivot away to indie producers ahead of the curve, and many of Perry's original pop peers are in a sort of semi-retirement at least from pop music.
I know there's been a number of cultural analyses in the past decades about how consumer taste swings with the economy - horror movies, for example. 5-10-20 years from now we'll be able to start analyzing the "post"-pandemic (I know, it's not over, but I guess maybe call it post-lockdowns) trends in pop culture and probably see this shift in more context.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:00 AM on August 13 [10 favorites]
Kitteh is right, mefi tends to shit on female coded interests. We talked about Vanderpump Rules once and a few members were in a froth about how stupid they thought it was to talk about.
I like pop analysis and I like this thread! Thank you, St. Peepsburg.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:23 AM on August 13 [13 favorites]
I like pop analysis and I like this thread! Thank you, St. Peepsburg.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:23 AM on August 13 [13 favorites]
Chapell Roan is this generation's Lady Gaga. The Fame came out in 2008, time enough for a new pop god to arise and bring new looks to the popsphere. I'm pretty sure she knows it too since she knows all the choreo to Bad Romance.
posted by fiercekitten at 7:40 AM on August 13 [7 favorites]
posted by fiercekitten at 7:40 AM on August 13 [7 favorites]
I sincerely feel for Chappell, who is on a meteoric rise and is rightfully freaking out about how public her life is now. I too would miss the days of doing drugs and just hanging out with friends were I at her level.
posted by Kitteh at 7:42 AM on August 13 [6 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 7:42 AM on August 13 [6 favorites]
Chapell Roan is this generation's Lady Gaga.
...who was that generation's Madonna. The big question is who is Gen Z's Katy Perry? Because it definitely isn't KP any more.
I remember the shitfest that Gaga threads here became back in the day. shudder
posted by freya_lamb at 7:47 AM on August 13 [1 favorite]
...who was that generation's Madonna. The big question is who is Gen Z's Katy Perry? Because it definitely isn't KP any more.
I remember the shitfest that Gaga threads here became back in the day. shudder
posted by freya_lamb at 7:47 AM on August 13 [1 favorite]
I'm a little confused by Chapell. I tried to get my daughter to explain it to me.
Kayleigh Amstutz's pop career wasn't really going anywhere until she adopted a drag persona and did Gaga-like stage shows. It seems like appropriation of gay culture to me but apparently everyone's cool with it. Selling to that crowd worked for Katy Hudson and Stefani Germanotta I guess whatever works, you work?
I'm just an old, then.
posted by 68091A50 at 7:50 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
Kayleigh Amstutz's pop career wasn't really going anywhere until she adopted a drag persona and did Gaga-like stage shows. It seems like appropriation of gay culture to me but apparently everyone's cool with it. Selling to that crowd worked for Katy Hudson and Stefani Germanotta I guess whatever works, you work?
I'm just an old, then.
posted by 68091A50 at 7:50 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
Well, Roan is bisexual and she is allowed to participate in gay culture; if anything, she's more explicit in her bisexuality than Gaga. I appreciate that. How often do you get a single about being eaten out in the passenger seat of a car from Lady Gaga?
posted by Kitteh at 7:53 AM on August 13 [18 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 7:53 AM on August 13 [18 favorites]
Kayleigh Amstutz's pop career wasn't really going anywhere until she adopted a drag persona and did Gaga-like stage shows people saw what she was experimenting with and felt some affinity.
I'm just an old, then.
Probs. ;)
posted by freya_lamb at 7:57 AM on August 13 [15 favorites]
I'm just an old, then.
Probs. ;)
posted by freya_lamb at 7:57 AM on August 13 [15 favorites]
Thank you all for exposing me to the music of Chappell Roan, it's exactly my kind of thing, and I'm (obviously) not paying any attention at all to new music these days.
posted by Kwine at 8:11 AM on August 13 [2 favorites]
posted by Kwine at 8:11 AM on August 13 [2 favorites]
I'm a little confused by Chapell. I tried to get my daughter to explain it to me.
...
I'm just an old, then.
Heh. Ask her about Melanie Martinez.
Am also an old, but am loving these artists.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:13 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
...
I'm just an old, then.
Heh. Ask her about Melanie Martinez.
Am also an old, but am loving these artists.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:13 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
>> this site is trash at discussing things coded young/feminine/mainstream
> It really is! If you want to get a sense of just how dude-coded this site can be, pick anything, ANYTHING, that women like and watch the "ugh this is just bullshit hold on while I go listen to my sweet indie vinyl which is real music" threadshitting happen.
okay that is all completely true and also it goes way deeper than that
pronouncements on metafilter and music!
or, the modal mefite really should broaden their musical horizons a great deal, and i’m not going to pretend otherwise,
or, actually i’m kinda posting this so i can see other peoples’ grand pop metanarratives because really mine is a little bro-ish when you get down to it, like, there is a mid-2000s pitchfork hot take right at the center and i’m embarrassed by that a little but on the other hand this mid-2000s pitchfork hot take has subsequently been proven to be remarkably prescient,
or, writing this gives me an excuse to listen to a lot of fun music,
or, sry there’s a lot of tangents here,
or, blackout changed the world and katy perry didn’t change with it,
or, just livin’ that life,
or, (1/?)
metafilter consistently misses the mark on music, top to bottom soup to nuts plate to table. my favorite example, and the threads where i first thought “hey, wow, they might be giants and weird al and everyone are great but probably y’all shoulda branched out at some point”, was early 21st century metafilter’s reaction to m.i.a.’s galang and then arular about which i can only say “yikes!” warning: oh wow those guys sure did hate young women. and i think about that reaction a lot because
this comment is about britney spears’s blackout, which is the album that changed absolutely everything. note: it probably doesn’t seem immediately revolutionary to your 2024 ears unless you heard it back in the day, since basically in 2007 it sounded like 2017 and in 2024 it sounds like 2017, but damn it is filled with bangers, like, slide the slider on that link to any point and you’ll hear something that sounds incredible, that still sounds incredible i mean. just, like, the way her voice is processed to make her sound like a weird robot, the way she’s this carefully crafted hollowness at the center of a total orgy of super-dense electronic sounds, so many sounds, it’s just oh man it is just so good so fuckin’ good.
(if you don’t want to just take my kind of incoherently-worded take on blackout plz go visit the wikipedia article, which has a lot of stuff on how it went from something with mixed reviews and a lot of “???” from reviewers to the now-universally acknowledged bible of / skeleton key for modern pop.
go listen to some pop from the pre-blackout era, stuff that seemed densely layered and “what if pop but too much?” at the time, and you’ll just be like “oh, yeah. this is obsolete.” example: gaga’s poker face, which i thought was so interesting and new at the time but like if you go listen to spears’s piece of me and then go back to the gaga, the gaga just sounds like so much “thump thump thump thump thump,” like, it’s like half the song is missing, like, and the lyrics are just not smart.
okay, now let’s go back to katy perry. let’s go listen to firework. this one came out in 2010 i think, it came out years after blackout, but hey check it out, it sounds pre-blackout. britney changed everything and perry couldn’t keep up. and oh hey let’s go listen to women’s world and check it out it’s 2024 and it still sounds pre-blackout. never mind the regressive politics, it sounds pre-blackout and that makes it sound like a time capsule.
earlier on i used the phrase “what if pop, but too much?” and if you’re keyed in you prolly know where this is going
get in loser we’re going hyperpop
so charli xcx — about whose sudden rise from mid-range famous to omigod incredibly famous i’m very much “squeee!!!” about even though i’m never going to be able to afford to see any of her shows ever again not in a million years — is more than tangentially connected to the pc music gang. pc music’s a e s t h e t i c was/is self-consciously “what if pop but too much”; they’re essentially making experimental music using pop tropes, but also (and this is very important) they fuckin’ love pop, like, none of their stuff is a parody of pop in any way, it is pop, it is 100% pop, it’s just also 125% and 150% and 300% pop as well.
here’s charli’s vroom vroom. my favorite take on vroom vroom is “this song bottoms”. it was produced by sophie (who was likewise pc music affiliated) and broadly speaking if you don’t like sophie you are outing yourself as someone who is behind the times, because what she did with the pop form was incredible and it is deeply deeply sad how she took a header off that roof in athens right when she had gotten her pronouns sorted out and right when the world was starting to notice that she was the future of pop. but anyway, vroom vroom has what i think is the chief hallmark of the hyperpop style and and also the chief hallmark of post-hyperpop pop in general: it sounds like at least two songs jammed together, and all of the songs jammed together clash with each other in jarringly delightful ways.
here’s another song by sophie, one of her more experimental ones. but you can hear the connections between faceshopping and vroom vroom, right?
if faceshopping is too much for you, here’s hey qt, which was co-produced by sophie and ag cook, who’s kind of the original mastermind behind pc music/hyperpop in general. note: if you have anything bad to say about hey qt, anything bad at all, you are wrong and you should go home. go home!
this is all to say that there are a lot of people in contemporary pop who are heavily involved with some really interesting experimental pop scenes, they’re all people who have thought very hard about the pop form, what can be said through the pop form, how to push the pop form farther, how to push the pop form so far it almost breaks.
like holy shit go listen to von dutch (imo the best track on brat, though it hasn’t broken out as big as several of the other tracks from the album) and tell me it’s not the culmination of the last 20 years of pop music, tell me it’s not genius, tell me that it’s not made by someone who has thought very very very hard about what pop music is and what it can be, it is so fuckin’ awesome that someone who is so plugged into experimental scenes is now one of the top three or so pop stars in the world.
and that katy perry track, it makes my soul hurt even thinking about it, because perry is whatever else you can say about her not thinking hard about the form
pop is where 2/3rds of the interesting music is coming from right now, pop is an experimental form, pop is made by geniuses, and if you’re not listening to pop you’re both missing out and doing yourself a disservice and outing yourself as someone who has in one sense or another problems with things you shouldn’t have problems with.
anyway. thanks for reading. in closing, here’s a song about how much billie eilish wants to fuck charli xcx (how much? a lot. you have no idea how much she wants to fuck charli xcx. however much you think she wants to fuck charli xcx, she wants to fuck charli xcx even more than that.).
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:18 AM on August 13 [64 favorites]
> It really is! If you want to get a sense of just how dude-coded this site can be, pick anything, ANYTHING, that women like and watch the "ugh this is just bullshit hold on while I go listen to my sweet indie vinyl which is real music" threadshitting happen.
okay that is all completely true and also it goes way deeper than that
pronouncements on metafilter and music!
or, the modal mefite really should broaden their musical horizons a great deal, and i’m not going to pretend otherwise,
or, actually i’m kinda posting this so i can see other peoples’ grand pop metanarratives because really mine is a little bro-ish when you get down to it, like, there is a mid-2000s pitchfork hot take right at the center and i’m embarrassed by that a little but on the other hand this mid-2000s pitchfork hot take has subsequently been proven to be remarkably prescient,
or, writing this gives me an excuse to listen to a lot of fun music,
or, sry there’s a lot of tangents here,
or, blackout changed the world and katy perry didn’t change with it,
or, just livin’ that life,
or, (1/?)
metafilter consistently misses the mark on music, top to bottom soup to nuts plate to table. my favorite example, and the threads where i first thought “hey, wow, they might be giants and weird al and everyone are great but probably y’all shoulda branched out at some point”, was early 21st century metafilter’s reaction to m.i.a.’s galang and then arular about which i can only say “yikes!” warning: oh wow those guys sure did hate young women. and i think about that reaction a lot because
- m.i.a. blew up really big just a little bit after that and her early stuff is very obviously great and she was very obviously destined for greatness
- these threads were kind of a perfect storm of things that metafilter doesn’t handle well, because — yes yes i know m.i.a. is kind of a nepo baby of the revolution rather than a revolutionary don’t @ me — it’s about music and it’s about music made by a young woman and the young woman in question is smarter than metafilter on several axes but most notably unlike all y’all she knows that political violence is necessary.
- can you even imagine a take more anti-prescient than the mefi one?
this comment is about britney spears’s blackout, which is the album that changed absolutely everything. note: it probably doesn’t seem immediately revolutionary to your 2024 ears unless you heard it back in the day, since basically in 2007 it sounded like 2017 and in 2024 it sounds like 2017, but damn it is filled with bangers, like, slide the slider on that link to any point and you’ll hear something that sounds incredible, that still sounds incredible i mean. just, like, the way her voice is processed to make her sound like a weird robot, the way she’s this carefully crafted hollowness at the center of a total orgy of super-dense electronic sounds, so many sounds, it’s just oh man it is just so good so fuckin’ good.
(if you don’t want to just take my kind of incoherently-worded take on blackout plz go visit the wikipedia article, which has a lot of stuff on how it went from something with mixed reviews and a lot of “???” from reviewers to the now-universally acknowledged bible of / skeleton key for modern pop.
go listen to some pop from the pre-blackout era, stuff that seemed densely layered and “what if pop but too much?” at the time, and you’ll just be like “oh, yeah. this is obsolete.” example: gaga’s poker face, which i thought was so interesting and new at the time but like if you go listen to spears’s piece of me and then go back to the gaga, the gaga just sounds like so much “thump thump thump thump thump,” like, it’s like half the song is missing, like, and the lyrics are just not smart.
okay, now let’s go back to katy perry. let’s go listen to firework. this one came out in 2010 i think, it came out years after blackout, but hey check it out, it sounds pre-blackout. britney changed everything and perry couldn’t keep up. and oh hey let’s go listen to women’s world and check it out it’s 2024 and it still sounds pre-blackout. never mind the regressive politics, it sounds pre-blackout and that makes it sound like a time capsule.
earlier on i used the phrase “what if pop, but too much?” and if you’re keyed in you prolly know where this is going
get in loser we’re going hyperpop
so charli xcx — about whose sudden rise from mid-range famous to omigod incredibly famous i’m very much “squeee!!!” about even though i’m never going to be able to afford to see any of her shows ever again not in a million years — is more than tangentially connected to the pc music gang. pc music’s a e s t h e t i c was/is self-consciously “what if pop but too much”; they’re essentially making experimental music using pop tropes, but also (and this is very important) they fuckin’ love pop, like, none of their stuff is a parody of pop in any way, it is pop, it is 100% pop, it’s just also 125% and 150% and 300% pop as well.
here’s charli’s vroom vroom. my favorite take on vroom vroom is “this song bottoms”. it was produced by sophie (who was likewise pc music affiliated) and broadly speaking if you don’t like sophie you are outing yourself as someone who is behind the times, because what she did with the pop form was incredible and it is deeply deeply sad how she took a header off that roof in athens right when she had gotten her pronouns sorted out and right when the world was starting to notice that she was the future of pop. but anyway, vroom vroom has what i think is the chief hallmark of the hyperpop style and and also the chief hallmark of post-hyperpop pop in general: it sounds like at least two songs jammed together, and all of the songs jammed together clash with each other in jarringly delightful ways.
here’s another song by sophie, one of her more experimental ones. but you can hear the connections between faceshopping and vroom vroom, right?
if faceshopping is too much for you, here’s hey qt, which was co-produced by sophie and ag cook, who’s kind of the original mastermind behind pc music/hyperpop in general. note: if you have anything bad to say about hey qt, anything bad at all, you are wrong and you should go home. go home!
this is all to say that there are a lot of people in contemporary pop who are heavily involved with some really interesting experimental pop scenes, they’re all people who have thought very hard about the pop form, what can be said through the pop form, how to push the pop form farther, how to push the pop form so far it almost breaks.
like holy shit go listen to von dutch (imo the best track on brat, though it hasn’t broken out as big as several of the other tracks from the album) and tell me it’s not the culmination of the last 20 years of pop music, tell me it’s not genius, tell me that it’s not made by someone who has thought very very very hard about what pop music is and what it can be, it is so fuckin’ awesome that someone who is so plugged into experimental scenes is now one of the top three or so pop stars in the world.
and that katy perry track, it makes my soul hurt even thinking about it, because perry is whatever else you can say about her not thinking hard about the form
pop is where 2/3rds of the interesting music is coming from right now, pop is an experimental form, pop is made by geniuses, and if you’re not listening to pop you’re both missing out and doing yourself a disservice and outing yourself as someone who has in one sense or another problems with things you shouldn’t have problems with.
anyway. thanks for reading. in closing, here’s a song about how much billie eilish wants to fuck charli xcx (how much? a lot. you have no idea how much she wants to fuck charli xcx. however much you think she wants to fuck charli xcx, she wants to fuck charli xcx even more than that.).
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:18 AM on August 13 [64 favorites]
lolololol "I called on my child to account for this impertinent young woman"
these threads give me life
posted by german_bight at 8:20 AM on August 13 [5 favorites]
these threads give me life
posted by german_bight at 8:20 AM on August 13 [5 favorites]
Kayleigh Amstutz's pop career wasn't really going anywhere until
Prior to Pink Pony club they were pretty much a child. I think this IS their pop career.
posted by Artw at 8:21 AM on August 13 [9 favorites]
Prior to Pink Pony club they were pretty much a child. I think this IS their pop career.
posted by Artw at 8:21 AM on August 13 [9 favorites]
here’s a song about how much billie eilish wants to fuck charli xcx
1) this is fetishy as fuck
2) also a banger
3) also the he video is funny as hell especially the mid point entrance.
posted by Artw at 8:23 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
1) this is fetishy as fuck
2) also a banger
3) also the he video is funny as hell especially the mid point entrance.
posted by Artw at 8:23 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
“charli likes boys but she knows i’d hit it” is basically the best line in any song ever right?
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:30 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:30 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
Oh god I just tried to listen to that Woman’s World track. Utter cringe. I see exactly what people are talking about especially when you put it up against Chappell Roan’s Femininomenon or Super Graphic Ultra Modern Girl. If someone told me that a bunch of middle-aged VP dudes at United Airlines or Equifax decided those lyrics via executive focus group for Women’s History Month I would 100% believe you.
Also, Chappell Roan recently came out as a lesbian.
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 8:31 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
Also, Chappell Roan recently came out as a lesbian.
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 8:31 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
given that femininomenon exists the idea that chappel would have to come out is kind of silly, right?
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:33 AM on August 13
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:33 AM on August 13
Katy Perry’s stalling stardom
I am tempted to make a second account, just so I can have this username.
posted by A Most Curious Rabbit at 8:38 AM on August 13 [8 favorites]
I am tempted to make a second account, just so I can have this username.
posted by A Most Curious Rabbit at 8:38 AM on August 13 [8 favorites]
given that femininomenon exists the idea that chappel would have to come out is kind of silly, right?
It seems like appropriation of gay culture to me but apparently everyone's cool with it.
Well, Roan is bisexual and she is allowed to participate in gay culture; if anything, she's more explicit in her bisexuality than Gaga.
I was responding to this exchange upthread, didn't type fast enough.
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 8:39 AM on August 13 [1 favorite]
It seems like appropriation of gay culture to me but apparently everyone's cool with it.
Well, Roan is bisexual and she is allowed to participate in gay culture; if anything, she's more explicit in her bisexuality than Gaga.
I was responding to this exchange upthread, didn't type fast enough.
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 8:39 AM on August 13 [1 favorite]
Kayleigh Amstutz's pop career wasn't really going anywhere until she adopted a drag persona and did Gaga-like stage shows. It seems like appropriation of gay culture to me but apparently everyone's cool with it. Selling to that crowd worked for Katy Hudson and Stefani Germotta I guess whatever works, you work?
i mean, i guess if that's your takeaway? here's another possibility:
kayleigh amstutz moved to la with her boyfriend to start her music career. in la, the music career went nowhere, she broke up with her boyfriend, and moved back home to the midwest.
then she realized she was queer, probably lesbian, and started recording music independent of the label that had signed her and then let her go. so by 2021 and 2022, she'd already written a song about a gay club she felt at home in (pink pony club), and then discovering being into women (naked in manhattan). it's around this time she decides to take the stage name chappell roan in honor of someone (i think her dad?)
which, y'know, puts her definitely in queer territory. did you know drag doesn't just mean gay men drag queens? and that there are cis women who do act as drag queens, not just drag kings?
if "chappell roan" as a stage presence is considered appropriative, a korean american eating kimchi would be "appropriative".
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:41 AM on August 13 [23 favorites]
i mean, i guess if that's your takeaway? here's another possibility:
kayleigh amstutz moved to la with her boyfriend to start her music career. in la, the music career went nowhere, she broke up with her boyfriend, and moved back home to the midwest.
then she realized she was queer, probably lesbian, and started recording music independent of the label that had signed her and then let her go. so by 2021 and 2022, she'd already written a song about a gay club she felt at home in (pink pony club), and then discovering being into women (naked in manhattan). it's around this time she decides to take the stage name chappell roan in honor of someone (i think her dad?)
which, y'know, puts her definitely in queer territory. did you know drag doesn't just mean gay men drag queens? and that there are cis women who do act as drag queens, not just drag kings?
if "chappell roan" as a stage presence is considered appropriative, a korean american eating kimchi would be "appropriative".
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:41 AM on August 13 [23 favorites]
Thanks for making a fun and thought provoking music post!
posted by kensington314 at 8:44 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 8:44 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
like there is a reason chappell roan exploded across lesbian and then queer tiktok starting in 2023.
it's not because she's a het ally. the lyrics to the vast majority of her songs are clearly sapphic:
"red wine supernova" opens referring to a woman, and has the line "i heard you like magic / i've got a wand and a rabbit"
the chorus to "good luck babe" is "you can kiss a hundred boys in bars / shoot another shot, try to stop the feeling / you can say it's just the way you are / make a new excuse, another stupid reason" and then in the bridge has "when you wake up next to him in the middle of the night / with your head in your hands, you're nothing more than his wife / and when you think about me, all of those years ago / you're standing face to face with 'i told you so'"
it's as explicit as billie eilish's "lunch": "i could eat that girl for lunch / yeah, she dances on my tongue / tastes like she might be the one"
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:45 AM on August 13 [8 favorites]
it's not because she's a het ally. the lyrics to the vast majority of her songs are clearly sapphic:
"red wine supernova" opens referring to a woman, and has the line "i heard you like magic / i've got a wand and a rabbit"
the chorus to "good luck babe" is "you can kiss a hundred boys in bars / shoot another shot, try to stop the feeling / you can say it's just the way you are / make a new excuse, another stupid reason" and then in the bridge has "when you wake up next to him in the middle of the night / with your head in your hands, you're nothing more than his wife / and when you think about me, all of those years ago / you're standing face to face with 'i told you so'"
it's as explicit as billie eilish's "lunch": "i could eat that girl for lunch / yeah, she dances on my tongue / tastes like she might be the one"
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:45 AM on August 13 [8 favorites]
If Chappell Roan had existed when I was my nieces' ages (14 & 16), then maybe I could have had more courage to come out of the closet when it came to my own sexuality. She gives me hope for the young queers!
posted by Kitteh at 8:50 AM on August 13 [7 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 8:50 AM on August 13 [7 favorites]
I appreciate that. How often do you get a single about being eaten out in the passenger seat of a car from Lady Gaga?
right? again, i point to tiktok: lesbian tok was discussing the geometry of being "knee deep in the passenger seat", which is from roan's song "casual" in late 2023/early 2024. few of the posited positions were the same.
i can't understand anyone thinking roan's stage persona is appropriative unless they have absolutely zero familiarity with her (as yet limited) oeuvre.
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:53 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
right? again, i point to tiktok: lesbian tok was discussing the geometry of being "knee deep in the passenger seat", which is from roan's song "casual" in late 2023/early 2024. few of the posited positions were the same.
i can't understand anyone thinking roan's stage persona is appropriative unless they have absolutely zero familiarity with her (as yet limited) oeuvre.
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:53 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
I mostly listen to death metal but enjoy some sugary pop every now and again. I started listening to Chappell Roan about a month ago, and she's been on near-constant rotation for me. The thing that does it for me is her combination of catchiness, horniness, and derangement. Like, "Femininomenon" has these little clips where she's screaming at herself to play a song with a fucking beat before talking about getting hot like Papa John. She rules.
I liked some of KP's singles back in the day, but I think folks are totally right that in a pop landscape where artists are talking about getting eaten out in half the songs, her vibe is just totally insincere.
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 9:00 AM on August 13 [6 favorites]
I liked some of KP's singles back in the day, but I think folks are totally right that in a pop landscape where artists are talking about getting eaten out in half the songs, her vibe is just totally insincere.
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 9:00 AM on August 13 [6 favorites]
Wow that old Metafilter thread about M.I.A. is wild; glad that was 20 years ago. I've been on a nostalgia kick listening to Arular recently.
Agree that von dutch is the best song on brat - it's like it gives me vertigo but in a good way? Anyway I too love pop metacommentary.
posted by catcafe at 9:05 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
Agree that von dutch is the best song on brat - it's like it gives me vertigo but in a good way? Anyway I too love pop metacommentary.
posted by catcafe at 9:05 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
Also, brat reminds me a bit of the way Death Grips went about deconstructing hip hop, but in a pop context. "Club Classics" especially.
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 9:14 AM on August 13
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 9:14 AM on August 13
> Agree that von dutch is the best song on brat - it's like it gives me vertigo but in a good way
like that one synth line sounds backwards it is so weird and good
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:16 AM on August 13 [1 favorite]
like that one synth line sounds backwards it is so weird and good
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:16 AM on August 13 [1 favorite]
My favorite track on Brat has been rotating. First it was a tossup between Von Dutch (that! video!) and Club Classics (which packs an entire night of clubbing into 2m33s!!!), then I became really enamored of Everything Is Romantic, and now I'm on team 360.
I want very much to go back in time and get invited to that Party Girl boiler room set.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:18 AM on August 13 [2 favorites]
I want very much to go back in time and get invited to that Party Girl boiler room set.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:18 AM on August 13 [2 favorites]
Not to defend her current work (it is truly unimaginative), Katy Perry is experiencing a long-standing backlash due to her hitting it with "I kissed a girl (and I liked it)" all those years ago. Of all the artists mentioned, she absolutely appropriated lesbian/bisexual energy for her music. Now that lesbian/bisexual music is hitting it big, Perry would have to produce something amazing and current to break into the pop scene again.
posted by drossdragon at 9:21 AM on August 13 [2 favorites]
posted by drossdragon at 9:21 AM on August 13 [2 favorites]
like that one synth line sounds backwards it is so weird and good
It isn't backwards! It is compressed using a sidechain compressor, which uses the signal from one track (in this case the kick drum) to control the level of another track (in this case that synth). And compressors have the concept of "attack" - how quickly the compressor lowers the volume - and "release" - how quickly the compressor lets the volume go back up. In this case the attack is very quick (synth gets quiet instantly) and the release slow (synth gets loud relatively slowly). This causes that sort of reverse ramping which makes it sound backwards. The really cool thing is that the kick can be muted but still impact the synth via the sidechain. That's the secret behind the "pumping" sound of lots of Daft Punk songs.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:27 AM on August 13 [34 favorites]
It isn't backwards! It is compressed using a sidechain compressor, which uses the signal from one track (in this case the kick drum) to control the level of another track (in this case that synth). And compressors have the concept of "attack" - how quickly the compressor lowers the volume - and "release" - how quickly the compressor lets the volume go back up. In this case the attack is very quick (synth gets quiet instantly) and the release slow (synth gets loud relatively slowly). This causes that sort of reverse ramping which makes it sound backwards. The really cool thing is that the kick can be muted but still impact the synth via the sidechain. That's the secret behind the "pumping" sound of lots of Daft Punk songs.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:27 AM on August 13 [34 favorites]
well shit, today i learned! thank you so much, grumpybear!
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:32 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:32 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
lolololol "I called on my child to account for this impertinent young woman"
Yeah, sorry if I offended anyone here. Her music means a lot to a LOT of people and I get that. I don't think I was trying to call her impertinent here. Any success in this world should be celebrated, especially when it comes to something as complex as today's pop music.
posted by 68091A50 at 9:34 AM on August 13 [2 favorites]
Yeah, sorry if I offended anyone here. Her music means a lot to a LOT of people and I get that. I don't think I was trying to call her impertinent here. Any success in this world should be celebrated, especially when it comes to something as complex as today's pop music.
posted by 68091A50 at 9:34 AM on August 13 [2 favorites]
Wow that old Metafilter thread about M.I.A. is wild
Yeah, um wow.
(Pity she’s gone antivax or whatever of late. That was quite a run of albums)
posted by Artw at 9:37 AM on August 13
Yeah, um wow.
(Pity she’s gone antivax or whatever of late. That was quite a run of albums)
posted by Artw at 9:37 AM on August 13
My favorite track on Brat has been rotating.
My current one, I think, is the extra girl, so confusing with Lorde on it, for when you want to simultaneously dance and cry.
posted by mittens at 9:41 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
My current one, I think, is the extra girl, so confusing with Lorde on it, for when you want to simultaneously dance and cry.
posted by mittens at 9:41 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
I have to shout out Alex_skazat for linking that amazing Todd in the Shadows YouTube review of Katy’s last album. It was 30min and I watched the whole thing! It was an amazing meta analysis and really leaned into the pathos of Katy like… not trusting herself? Just kind of rode the wave that appeared not understanding how she caught it aside from being right place right time. He also spoke of the two diffferent types of pop stars - those where we want to know what they have to say (Chappell, Gaga, swift) even if the music falters and those who lose our interests if the bangers stop flowing (Perry, black eyed peas, pitbull)
It made me think of the woman’s world video… like at the end when she helicopters out and the person in the ground calls up “who are you??!!” and she says “I’m Katy Perry” and then they repeat “who ARE you?” And she calls even more majestic: “I’m Katy Perry” but what she should have said in the exact same expansive broad calling out from on high voice: “I’m Katy Perry… don’t think too hard about it…” or like “just enjoy the music….” That would have been perfect.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:42 AM on August 13 [2 favorites]
It made me think of the woman’s world video… like at the end when she helicopters out and the person in the ground calls up “who are you??!!” and she says “I’m Katy Perry” and then they repeat “who ARE you?” And she calls even more majestic: “I’m Katy Perry” but what she should have said in the exact same expansive broad calling out from on high voice: “I’m Katy Perry… don’t think too hard about it…” or like “just enjoy the music….” That would have been perfect.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:42 AM on August 13 [2 favorites]
Katy Perry is experiencing a long-standing backlash due to her hitting it with "I kissed a girl (and I liked it)" all those years ago. Of all the artists mentioned, she absolutely appropriated lesbian/bisexual energy for her music.
How does that track when Katy Perry has said she was, at least, bi-curious, and that her heavily awful religious upbringing has made that exploration difficult for her? Doesn't seem like appropriation to me, but I am sure I could have missed something.
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:43 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
How does that track when Katy Perry has said she was, at least, bi-curious, and that her heavily awful religious upbringing has made that exploration difficult for her? Doesn't seem like appropriation to me, but I am sure I could have missed something.
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:43 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
My wife has been listening to the new Katy Perry tracks and watching some PR stuff, because I think of the throwback nature of the music and hitting her with nostalgia. The tracks are ?fine?, but there doesn't feel like there's much there. I've never felt her voice was very strong, but her earlier stuff was fun and lively.
Watching the older PR stuff also drove home how much of her image is that 60's "innocent sex kitten" thing, which felt retro back then and feels very out of step today with the far more open and honest presentation of sexuality.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:44 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
Watching the older PR stuff also drove home how much of her image is that 60's "innocent sex kitten" thing, which felt retro back then and feels very out of step today with the far more open and honest presentation of sexuality.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:44 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
I loved this thread and this FPP. While I can't quite articulate any disagreement with the sentiment of "KP was a phenom of 2009 but she was never THE dominant figure in pop at ANY time and now they're a decade past who peak, why are we discussing this?" I can't help but pay attention, for a least a few moments.
Katy Perry's singles off this album sound almost tailor made for the sound track of a major Trolls movie... which isn't a slam, I secretly kinda love those dumb wild movies and their soundtracks feature Daveed Diggs and Icona Pop and a handful of pop veterans who deserve paychecks. Being featured in a Trolls soundtrack is an amazing level of success.
But yeah, it's not going on any playlist of mine...
Agree there is a dichotomy of pop stars... with Gaga, Swift, Robyn, Kendrick Lamar on one side... and Pitbull, KP, Drake, on the other... I don't know if I'm interested in what any pop star has to SAY... but I'm probably going to stay interested in their music longer.
posted by midmarch snowman at 9:54 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
Katy Perry's singles off this album sound almost tailor made for the sound track of a major Trolls movie... which isn't a slam, I secretly kinda love those dumb wild movies and their soundtracks feature Daveed Diggs and Icona Pop and a handful of pop veterans who deserve paychecks. Being featured in a Trolls soundtrack is an amazing level of success.
But yeah, it's not going on any playlist of mine...
Agree there is a dichotomy of pop stars... with Gaga, Swift, Robyn, Kendrick Lamar on one side... and Pitbull, KP, Drake, on the other... I don't know if I'm interested in what any pop star has to SAY... but I'm probably going to stay interested in their music longer.
posted by midmarch snowman at 9:54 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
The other thing I loooooove about Chappell is her “Greek chorus” band who chime in for commentary, or the call-and-response aspects that are automatically worked into her songs, it’s very audience engagement social media-y in a way that is fresh fun and… kind of how we communicate now.
From Red Wine Supernova:
Well, back at my house
I've got a California king
Okay, maybe it's a twin bed
And some roommates
[band mates all at once:] don't worry, we're cool!
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:58 AM on August 13 [9 favorites]
From Red Wine Supernova:
Well, back at my house
I've got a California king
Okay, maybe it's a twin bed
And some roommates
[band mates all at once:] don't worry, we're cool!
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:58 AM on August 13 [9 favorites]
I'm an old straight white man and I am popping in to say that I have tickets to see Chappell Roan on September with the All Things Go festival and I am super excited. It is no small feat to have 5-6 songs that are ubiquitous in the culture at the same time. Her music is super catchy and just introspective enough to give you the sense that you know her.
I am certainly concerned that she may burn out, but she is smart and talented and hopefully she has good people around her who will protect her as her star continues to rise. But she is definitely a rare talent and I wish her all the best.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 10:12 AM on August 13 [8 favorites]
I am certainly concerned that she may burn out, but she is smart and talented and hopefully she has good people around her who will protect her as her star continues to rise. But she is definitely a rare talent and I wish her all the best.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 10:12 AM on August 13 [8 favorites]
There is a conversation to be had about the weight of becoming a "legacy" artist. But I wish it weren't so often conflated with meanness, with thinly-veiled schadenfreude. Of course we all resent becoming obsolete.
Comparing Perry's worst music and Roan's best is unkind. Chappell Roan will get old one day, as do we all, and will likely have an even harder time adjusting to what comes next, because the great machine is *speeding up.*
posted by mathjus at 10:31 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
Comparing Perry's worst music and Roan's best is unkind. Chappell Roan will get old one day, as do we all, and will likely have an even harder time adjusting to what comes next, because the great machine is *speeding up.*
posted by mathjus at 10:31 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
I was at the local drag club to hand out naloxone on Saturday night and got to see Willow Pill do a whole Charli XCX set including of course "girl so confusing" with a cameo by Yvie Oddly who was chilling backstage and came on for that song which clearly has a future as a drag lipsynch standard.
Also I am too old for club hours.
Also also I love Chapell Roan and the entirety of this new and extraordinarily queer pop scene.
posted by gingerbeer at 10:37 AM on August 13 [12 favorites]
Also I am too old for club hours.
Also also I love Chapell Roan and the entirety of this new and extraordinarily queer pop scene.
posted by gingerbeer at 10:37 AM on August 13 [12 favorites]
hey can i talk about a sorta-known musician who i really hope breaks out? cause i am a huge fan of peach prc and i hope she enters the #1 smash hit song of the summer phase of her career sooner or later
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:57 AM on August 13 [2 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:57 AM on August 13 [2 favorites]
Hard to overstate the impact Brat has had culturally. It's like British Invasion II, Beatlemania-level fever... I threw a couple Charli XCX tribute + hyperpop club nights in Honolulu this summer and they went off harder than any event I've ever organized. People were SCREAMING every time I put on a Charli or SOPHIE track. The club was packed and dancing front to back. I've been a Charli XCX stan for a decade so it's great to see her hit this level of success. Brat is her best record by far.
I also was overjoyed to see 'Galang' and 'Bingo' by M.I.A. both get very good reactions when I played them. Naughties indie-sleaze is back (and very evident on the Charli record and the 'Guess' remix, which was produced by a new indie sleaze guy called The Dare). World events and politics have been absolutely dire and all this music serves as a desperately needed escape from that. Charli and Chappell's albums couldn't be better timed.
Meanwhile Katy Perry has always been cringe, basic, means-tested product with all the soul wrung out of it and rough edges sanded off. bombastic lowercase is right that pop has been a huge umbrella for experimentalism, and it's thrilling to see weirdos breakthrough from the underground after so many years of normie dominance.
posted by tovarisch at 11:15 AM on August 13 [8 favorites]
I also was overjoyed to see 'Galang' and 'Bingo' by M.I.A. both get very good reactions when I played them. Naughties indie-sleaze is back (and very evident on the Charli record and the 'Guess' remix, which was produced by a new indie sleaze guy called The Dare). World events and politics have been absolutely dire and all this music serves as a desperately needed escape from that. Charli and Chappell's albums couldn't be better timed.
Meanwhile Katy Perry has always been cringe, basic, means-tested product with all the soul wrung out of it and rough edges sanded off. bombastic lowercase is right that pop has been a huge umbrella for experimentalism, and it's thrilling to see weirdos breakthrough from the underground after so many years of normie dominance.
posted by tovarisch at 11:15 AM on August 13 [8 favorites]
> I threw a couple Charli XCX tribute + hyperpop club nights in Honolulu this summer and they went off harder than any event I've ever organized
uhhh are you doing more of these no wait don’t tell me i don’t want to accidentally buy plane tickets
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:30 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
uhhh are you doing more of these no wait don’t tell me i don’t want to accidentally buy plane tickets
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:30 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
Meanwhile Katy Perry has always been cringe, basic, means-tested product with all the soul wrung out of it and rough edges sanded off.
I think that's maybe a little unfair to Katy Perry (Firework, Thinking of You, Waking Up in Vegas, those are some legitimate bangers), but it does get at something interesting going on in pop music, especially female-fronted pop music.
It seems to me that female pop stars over the past few years have taken greater creative control over putting themselves into the music. You get a real sense of personality in contrasting the music of Chappell Roan, Charli XCX, Sabrina Carpenter, Olivia Rodrigo, etc. By and large, I think Katy Perry and Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera and others did whatever the record companies told them to do - worked with the producers assigned to them, sang the songs picked for them, etc.
Maybe it's a function of the internet and music production now being something anyone can do on a laptop, that gives these women the freedom to have more of a say in their image and their product. And that's especially interesting while watching a new generation of artists grow in real time. For example, I didn't much care for Billie Eilish's "Bad Guy" album, but the new album is much more interesting musically and lyrically, and Finneas's production skills have matured as well. Anyway, all I'm saying is that it's a particularly good time for pop music.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 11:30 AM on August 13 [8 favorites]
I think that's maybe a little unfair to Katy Perry (Firework, Thinking of You, Waking Up in Vegas, those are some legitimate bangers), but it does get at something interesting going on in pop music, especially female-fronted pop music.
It seems to me that female pop stars over the past few years have taken greater creative control over putting themselves into the music. You get a real sense of personality in contrasting the music of Chappell Roan, Charli XCX, Sabrina Carpenter, Olivia Rodrigo, etc. By and large, I think Katy Perry and Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera and others did whatever the record companies told them to do - worked with the producers assigned to them, sang the songs picked for them, etc.
Maybe it's a function of the internet and music production now being something anyone can do on a laptop, that gives these women the freedom to have more of a say in their image and their product. And that's especially interesting while watching a new generation of artists grow in real time. For example, I didn't much care for Billie Eilish's "Bad Guy" album, but the new album is much more interesting musically and lyrically, and Finneas's production skills have matured as well. Anyway, all I'm saying is that it's a particularly good time for pop music.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 11:30 AM on August 13 [8 favorites]
if you’re not listening to pop you’re both missing out and doing yourself a disservice and outing yourself as someone who has in one sense or another problems with things you shouldn’t have problems with.
sorry i don't understand this? It almost sounds like your suggesting that i have an obligation to listen to something which honestly doesn't hook me? or i even barely have time for?
posted by msiebler at 11:35 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
sorry i don't understand this? It almost sounds like your suggesting that i have an obligation to listen to something which honestly doesn't hook me? or i even barely have time for?
posted by msiebler at 11:35 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
Uhh not trying to stand for Katy Perry here because I am not even a fan but doesn't she have a huge say in her own stage show? I think a lot of her elaborate show plans are at least part her imaginings. Seems strange to me to say she's a listen-to-the-marketing-people artist from what barely I've seen of her. Again, could be missing something and I get she's on the way out but damn.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:35 AM on August 13 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:35 AM on August 13 [1 favorite]
What a strange post. Did Katy Perry shoot your dog or something?
or something?
I like Chapell Roan (and have long considered myself a bit of a Katy Perry hater) but surely some of her more upbeat numbers owe a little something to the zany, cheesecake energy of the California Gurls music video.
posted by grandiloquiet at 11:43 AM on August 13 [1 favorite]
or something?
I like Chapell Roan (and have long considered myself a bit of a Katy Perry hater) but surely some of her more upbeat numbers owe a little something to the zany, cheesecake energy of the California Gurls music video.
posted by grandiloquiet at 11:43 AM on August 13 [1 favorite]
pop is where 2/3rds of the interesting music is coming from right now, pop is an experimental form, pop is made by geniuses, and if you’re not listening to pop you’re both missing out and doing yourself a disservice and outing yourself as someone who has in one sense or another problems with things you shouldn’t have problems with.
This is... a take. Interestingly, it suffers from the same kind of thinking that's all over that M.I.A. thread from 2005 - the assumption that there is a universal "good" and "bad" in art, and that the criteria for "good" and "bad" aren't so situated in both personal, cultural and political history and circumstance as to be fairly useless for meaningful engagement with the art in question, nevermind that these terms are products of power (who gets to define "good"?)
I personally think that "genius" is also a useless and harmful concept (a: I think there is no such thing; b: art, like all culture, is usually produced by communities in conversation), "interesting" is highly subjective and also a choice of how one pays attention, so saying "pop is 2/3 of the most interesting music" is saying that my choices about what to be interested in are wrong if I don't agree with you - but what if I am really interested in jazz? Then "pop" as defined here is very likely going to be less interesting to me because it displays none of the hallmarks of what make a great jazz tune (innovative chord progressions that aren't always in Ionain or Aeolian modes, improvisation, live performance, technical mastery of an instrument, etc).
Imagine someone who really, really loves polka. They stand a strong chance of not enjoying the music of either Perry or Roan, and this way of framing things suggests they prefer polka because there's something wrong with them (they have "problems with things [they] shouldn’t have problems with.") Maybe they are just really into accordions and 2/4 time?
The review in the original post, is weird for comparing a song that's been out for six months with one song that's been out for a little over a week, and another that's been out for a week, never mind that comparing Perry to Roan is kind of like comparing Nat King Cole to Ray Charles because they both have had songs on the same charts, 15 years apart, and now the elder artist is again charting on those same charts, but lower.
I agree that Dr. Luke is icky, and it was a bad call for Perry to work with him.
I personally have enjoyed Roan's songs more than anything I've heard by Perry, but that's because I never really dug the production and arrangements of 2000s-2010s era pop music. But I'm not saying that stuff is bad - it just isn't my cup of tea, because of the kinds of musical choices I tend to find interesting.
posted by A Most Curious Rabbit at 11:57 AM on August 13 [7 favorites]
This is... a take. Interestingly, it suffers from the same kind of thinking that's all over that M.I.A. thread from 2005 - the assumption that there is a universal "good" and "bad" in art, and that the criteria for "good" and "bad" aren't so situated in both personal, cultural and political history and circumstance as to be fairly useless for meaningful engagement with the art in question, nevermind that these terms are products of power (who gets to define "good"?)
I personally think that "genius" is also a useless and harmful concept (a: I think there is no such thing; b: art, like all culture, is usually produced by communities in conversation), "interesting" is highly subjective and also a choice of how one pays attention, so saying "pop is 2/3 of the most interesting music" is saying that my choices about what to be interested in are wrong if I don't agree with you - but what if I am really interested in jazz? Then "pop" as defined here is very likely going to be less interesting to me because it displays none of the hallmarks of what make a great jazz tune (innovative chord progressions that aren't always in Ionain or Aeolian modes, improvisation, live performance, technical mastery of an instrument, etc).
Imagine someone who really, really loves polka. They stand a strong chance of not enjoying the music of either Perry or Roan, and this way of framing things suggests they prefer polka because there's something wrong with them (they have "problems with things [they] shouldn’t have problems with.") Maybe they are just really into accordions and 2/4 time?
The review in the original post, is weird for comparing a song that's been out for six months with one song that's been out for a little over a week, and another that's been out for a week, never mind that comparing Perry to Roan is kind of like comparing Nat King Cole to Ray Charles because they both have had songs on the same charts, 15 years apart, and now the elder artist is again charting on those same charts, but lower.
I agree that Dr. Luke is icky, and it was a bad call for Perry to work with him.
I personally have enjoyed Roan's songs more than anything I've heard by Perry, but that's because I never really dug the production and arrangements of 2000s-2010s era pop music. But I'm not saying that stuff is bad - it just isn't my cup of tea, because of the kinds of musical choices I tend to find interesting.
posted by A Most Curious Rabbit at 11:57 AM on August 13 [7 favorites]
Look, Katy has had some bangers. I do not know what happened with the current project. I don't know if she and her people just haven't paid attention to the current pop landscape/assumed the same shit would work or what happened/didn't happen/if she's just trying to burn out of a record contract or wtf.
There's something that bums me out about Katy Perry being 39 and doing the same stuff she was doing when she was 23. She's been through some stuff, had a kid, etc., and I don't understand how her music hasn't really changed in tone.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 12:01 PM on August 13 [2 favorites]
There's something that bums me out about Katy Perry being 39 and doing the same stuff she was doing when she was 23. She's been through some stuff, had a kid, etc., and I don't understand how her music hasn't really changed in tone.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 12:01 PM on August 13 [2 favorites]
>> if you’re not listening to pop you’re both missing out and doing yourself a disservice and outing yourself as someone who has in one sense or another problems with things you shouldn’t have problems with.
> sorry i don't understand this? It almost sounds like your suggesting that i have an obligation to listen to something which honestly doesn't hook me? or i even barely have time for?
i stand by my statement: everyone has a moral obligation to get familiar with contemporary pop. in this thread i will discuss consequentialist, deontologist, and virtue-ethics-based arguments for mandatory pop appreciation. firstly from a utilitarian perspective, consider (1/?)
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 12:01 PM on August 13 [14 favorites]
> sorry i don't understand this? It almost sounds like your suggesting that i have an obligation to listen to something which honestly doesn't hook me? or i even barely have time for?
i stand by my statement: everyone has a moral obligation to get familiar with contemporary pop. in this thread i will discuss consequentialist, deontologist, and virtue-ethics-based arguments for mandatory pop appreciation. firstly from a utilitarian perspective, consider (1/?)
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 12:01 PM on August 13 [14 favorites]
OK she's had some bangers but if hating on Katy Perry's music is wrong i don't wanna be right. She's the Orlando Bloom of music lol
posted by tovarisch at 12:09 PM on August 13 [1 favorite]
posted by tovarisch at 12:09 PM on August 13 [1 favorite]
But I also wonder if this signals the end of the Swedish Hitmaking Machine Era (I know, most of the main players aren't even Swedish these days, but the framework remains)
Katy's biggest, most infectious and fun singles nearly all have 1 thing in common: Max Martin. He last worked with her (either as songwriter or producer) on her fifth album, Witness (2017). She also is no longer working with frequent co-writer Bonnie McKee, whose last work on was 2013's Prism.
Apparently Max Martin has been working on her yet-to-be-released album 143, but he's not credited on the two singles already released.
posted by ApathyGirl at 12:11 PM on August 13 [2 favorites]
Katy's biggest, most infectious and fun singles nearly all have 1 thing in common: Max Martin. He last worked with her (either as songwriter or producer) on her fifth album, Witness (2017). She also is no longer working with frequent co-writer Bonnie McKee, whose last work on was 2013's Prism.
Apparently Max Martin has been working on her yet-to-be-released album 143, but he's not credited on the two singles already released.
posted by ApathyGirl at 12:11 PM on August 13 [2 favorites]
but have you considered that when an elf surfs on a shield down a flight of stairs it is sick as hell
on edit: like legit sick as hell
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 12:11 PM on August 13 [3 favorites]
on edit: like legit sick as hell
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 12:11 PM on August 13 [3 favorites]
I like that pop music is hitting it's late '80s phase of blatant but not terribly explicit sexual content lyrically.
I think people are being too hard on Katy Perry's obviously satirical video - like everything she does in the video is things men stereotypically enjoy. She should have shot some guns to make it more obvious. Also I don't really get why people are throwing so much shade at her for being behind the times. Musically, pop hasn't moved much since Firework was big.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:16 PM on August 13 [1 favorite]
I think people are being too hard on Katy Perry's obviously satirical video - like everything she does in the video is things men stereotypically enjoy. She should have shot some guns to make it more obvious. Also I don't really get why people are throwing so much shade at her for being behind the times. Musically, pop hasn't moved much since Firework was big.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:16 PM on August 13 [1 favorite]
Not terribly explicit!? I find today's music soooo much more explicit than the 90s but again, I am an Old. I'll see myself out. 😀
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:31 PM on August 13 [3 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:31 PM on August 13 [3 favorites]
ok but The_Vegetables have you not listened to SOPHIE. lots has changed
posted by tovarisch at 12:33 PM on August 13 [4 favorites]
posted by tovarisch at 12:33 PM on August 13 [4 favorites]
and it’s changing super super quickly too like it feels like we’re at this inflection point and the curve’s gonna look exponential for a little while
i feel like i’ve been talking too much about charli on this thread but also chappell roan is an unprecedented talent and like oh my god there’s bits where she’s like yodelling? basically but it sounds different and also perfect? it kills me that like hot to go is just this thing that she dashed off because she was like “oh we don’t have a tiktok song we gotta have one with a dance” and it’s not even her best song but it is so cool
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 12:39 PM on August 13 [1 favorite]
i feel like i’ve been talking too much about charli on this thread but also chappell roan is an unprecedented talent and like oh my god there’s bits where she’s like yodelling? basically but it sounds different and also perfect? it kills me that like hot to go is just this thing that she dashed off because she was like “oh we don’t have a tiktok song we gotta have one with a dance” and it’s not even her best song but it is so cool
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 12:39 PM on August 13 [1 favorite]
an entirely bland, toothless "rah rah women" anthem-wanna-be with a video that Katy later explained was satire but it is it (good) satire if you have to explain it?
It ain’t great, but I think at this point not being recognised as satire is pretty much just a thing that happens to all satire regardless of goodness or blatantness.
I mean, we’re still talking about Starship Troopers for gods sake.
posted by Artw at 12:39 PM on August 13
It ain’t great, but I think at this point not being recognised as satire is pretty much just a thing that happens to all satire regardless of goodness or blatantness.
I mean, we’re still talking about Starship Troopers for gods sake.
posted by Artw at 12:39 PM on August 13
What I love most about Brat is how it is fulfilling the promise of the 90s rave scene, which was that one day, some day, really, truly out-there club music would be mainstream. I remember when Bjork's Hyperballad came out and I was like "YES THE TIME IS NOW" but it was not the time. And then the Roots ended You Got Me with a straight-up jungle beat and I was like "OK THE TIME MUST BE NOW" but it was still not the time. And I tired of the lightweight clubbification of pop, lots of four to the floor, nothing that actually moved my soul the way the tracks a DJ plays at 2am did. And I resigned myself to the idea that it would never happen, only trolling beatport would do. And then Brat was released, and it was clear that the time had finally come.
IT IS SUCH A GODDAMN BANGING AMAZING CLUB ALBUM
All of the attendant weirdness and nods to mind-altering psychedelia - like midway through Rewind where it's all weird chopped vocals and drums and squelches that sounds nothing like the rest of the song - elevate the tracks from songs to art. Beautiful, strange, danceable art that I can freak out to like one of those wiggly noodle men they put in front of car dealerships.
And - AND - it has a solid, moving emotional core. I LOVE IT.
posted by grumpybear69 at 12:45 PM on August 13 [6 favorites]
IT IS SUCH A GODDAMN BANGING AMAZING CLUB ALBUM
All of the attendant weirdness and nods to mind-altering psychedelia - like midway through Rewind where it's all weird chopped vocals and drums and squelches that sounds nothing like the rest of the song - elevate the tracks from songs to art. Beautiful, strange, danceable art that I can freak out to like one of those wiggly noodle men they put in front of car dealerships.
And - AND - it has a solid, moving emotional core. I LOVE IT.
posted by grumpybear69 at 12:45 PM on August 13 [6 favorites]
pop right now is basically like if the gay part of fully automated luxury gay space communism time-traveled back to give us a vision of a better future. it is beautiful.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 12:47 PM on August 13 [10 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 12:47 PM on August 13 [10 favorites]
ok but The_Vegetables have you not listened to SOPHIE. lots has changed
I've only heard Reason Why. I didn't find it interesting, but maybe the other singles are better?
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:09 PM on August 13
I've only heard Reason Why. I didn't find it interesting, but maybe the other singles are better?
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:09 PM on August 13
If you want to read an analysis of musical techniques used in Brat music Radar has this article. Theres some talk of keys, modes, and software, and also a bit of notation, so you have to know a bit more about music than I do.
posted by The River Ivel at 2:20 PM on August 13 [2 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 2:20 PM on August 13 [2 favorites]
I don't understand music genres anymore. When I was a lad buying record albums, Pop and Rock were much more overlapping. I don't think Rock is even a thing anymore. For some reason they still have "alternative" as a thing at the Grammys but I'm not sure what it's an alternative to anymore. Post-Grunge, post-Nu-Metal if you're a band I guess you're "indie." Everything is at least part hip-hop now, and there's more great Pop than there was back when MJ and Madonna ruled the radio.
It used to be you stayed in your lane. If you were a punk, you didn't listen to country (maybe some rockabilly). If you liked club music you weren't into oldies. Now everything is so accessible all the time. It's wondrous and bewildering and for the price of an album a month, you can gorge yourself on everything. It's so different from digging through the bins looking for that one album you don't have or taking a risk on a new sound. It's frictionless and accessible and it's making me love music the way I did when I was a kid again.
posted by rikschell at 2:24 PM on August 13 [16 favorites]
It used to be you stayed in your lane. If you were a punk, you didn't listen to country (maybe some rockabilly). If you liked club music you weren't into oldies. Now everything is so accessible all the time. It's wondrous and bewildering and for the price of an album a month, you can gorge yourself on everything. It's so different from digging through the bins looking for that one album you don't have or taking a risk on a new sound. It's frictionless and accessible and it's making me love music the way I did when I was a kid again.
posted by rikschell at 2:24 PM on August 13 [16 favorites]
I've only just started sampling Chappell Roan's oeuvre, but she seems delightful.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:38 PM on August 13 [3 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:38 PM on August 13 [3 favorites]
If you want to read an analysis of musical techniques used in Brat music Radar has this article. Theres some talk of keys, modes, and software, and also a bit of notation, so you have to know a bit more about music than I do.
There are some clips on YT of Charli, AG Cook, and George Daniel talking about the production and recording as well.
posted by atoxyl at 2:55 PM on August 13 [1 favorite]
There are some clips on YT of Charli, AG Cook, and George Daniel talking about the production and recording as well.
posted by atoxyl at 2:55 PM on August 13 [1 favorite]
“charli likes boys but she knows i’d hit it” is basically the best line in any song ever right?
It's good, but "I heard you like magic / I got a wand and a rabbit" is currently #1 for me.
posted by Navelgazer at 3:45 PM on August 13 [11 favorites]
It's good, but "I heard you like magic / I got a wand and a rabbit" is currently #1 for me.
posted by Navelgazer at 3:45 PM on August 13 [11 favorites]
> "I heard you like magic / I got a wand and a rabbit" is currently #1 for me.
same same
posted by gingerbeer at 3:55 PM on August 13 [4 favorites]
same same
posted by gingerbeer at 3:55 PM on August 13 [4 favorites]
I really enjoy (unironically) a lot of pop music being released today, I really enjoy (unironically) a lot of pop music that was released in 2010, and I really enjoy (ironically) the school of thought that posits "Stuff from 10-20 years ago is so inherently embarrassing! Unlike the fresh, inherently timeless stuff of today, which obviously is not going to undergo a similarly negative reassessment 10-20 years from now."
(And then, of course, eventually it all ages enough to become retro and classic and thus allowably cool again.)
posted by eponym at 4:00 PM on August 13 [13 favorites]
(And then, of course, eventually it all ages enough to become retro and classic and thus allowably cool again.)
posted by eponym at 4:00 PM on August 13 [13 favorites]
"I heard you like magic / I got a wand and a rabbit"
I don’t know what you guys are talking about, this is clearly about professional stage magic.
posted by Artw at 7:05 PM on August 13 [5 favorites]
I don’t know what you guys are talking about, this is clearly about professional stage magic.
posted by Artw at 7:05 PM on August 13 [5 favorites]
Clearly. What else could it be?
posted by gingerbeer at 7:18 PM on August 13 [2 favorites]
posted by gingerbeer at 7:18 PM on August 13 [2 favorites]
I’ll bring the wand / you bring the rabbit / if it turns out right, we can make it a habit
wicked banjo solo
And when it comes to bands with very long flop eras in between popular albums, try Aerosmith. Stephen Tyler has only now, in the last few weeks, said they have to hang it up cause his vocals are going.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:39 AM on August 14 [1 favorite]
wicked banjo solo
And when it comes to bands with very long flop eras in between popular albums, try Aerosmith. Stephen Tyler has only now, in the last few weeks, said they have to hang it up cause his vocals are going.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:39 AM on August 14 [1 favorite]
> what she did with the pop form was incredible and it is deeply deeply sad how she took a header off that roof in athens right when she had gotten her pronouns sorted out and right when the world was starting to notice that she was the future of pop.
whoa, sophie's oil of every pearl's un-insides is a museum of sonic masterpieces! (af on ponyboy: "it is now my goal before i die that i am spanked 'til i cry to this song ;)
sorry to learn about her after she died so tragically. as @ThinkyyBoy said here: "Sophies death is unique. It feels like there was a whole new galaxy of sounds and ideas living in her mind, which will be forever lost, never truly realized or build upon."
posted by kliuless at 7:49 AM on August 14 [4 favorites]
whoa, sophie's oil of every pearl's un-insides is a museum of sonic masterpieces! (af on ponyboy: "it is now my goal before i die that i am spanked 'til i cry to this song ;)
sorry to learn about her after she died so tragically. as @ThinkyyBoy said here: "Sophies death is unique. It feels like there was a whole new galaxy of sounds and ideas living in her mind, which will be forever lost, never truly realized or build upon."
posted by kliuless at 7:49 AM on August 14 [4 favorites]
Ya as a result of this thread I gave SOPHIE a whirl and it was like listening to the Paris fashion show of music. I was blown away. “Your favorite artists favorite artist” like where all the sonic ideas come from to inspire the mainstream stars. Creatively, experimentally It was like listening to David Bowie!
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:55 AM on August 14 [3 favorites]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:55 AM on August 14 [3 favorites]
It's amazing to me that, in this thread about 00s/10s female pop stars reinventing themselves, the distinction between pop musicians who go along with what labels/producers say they should do vs. the ones that assert their own distinct voice and vision, and the colossal fuck-up of Katy Perry recording a "feminist" song with Dr. Luke in 2024, that nobody has even mentioned Kesha yet.
posted by Navelgazer at 8:45 AM on August 14 [3 favorites]
posted by Navelgazer at 8:45 AM on August 14 [3 favorites]
I honestly didn't mention Kesha because she's had to take a lot of random tagging/discourse thanks to Dr Luke being associated with all this/in the news, and figured she's better left out of it.
But she's got an excellent TED Talk just out on The Alchemy of Pop.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:53 AM on August 14 [3 favorites]
But she's got an excellent TED Talk just out on The Alchemy of Pop.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:53 AM on August 14 [3 favorites]
Creativity is a funny thing. It involves looking at the world from a particular angle and making viewers/readers/listeners think "damn, that's the angle I should've been looking at it from all along."
Lots of people have one really good idea in them, or can be molded into being the right person at the right time to collaborate on and deliver a good idea. To do it repeatedly requires luck, talent and the right circumstances. And if those circumstances change, to adapt to those new circumstances and do it again and again in a different context with a different idea? That's what separates the greats from the rest of the pack.
But there's no shame in not hitting the same heights in sales, in critical acclaim, in prominence if what you do later on is what you want to be doing.
I have no problem with Chappell Roan; I watched a handful of her videos just now, and they're perfectly good pop songs. I can see why she's breaking out as a rising star. But she's also had one album, one sustained burst of creativity, one big wave she's riding -- and she should enjoy every second of that ride!
Because you never know if the next wave will be as big, if you'll find yourself just as inspired the next time around, if the audience will have moved onto someone else or not, if you're capable of adjusting yourself to meet new standards (or to set new standards) or if you have your own niche and, whether others follow you into it or not, that's where you live and you're comfortable.
Maybe Katy is a dinosaur now. Maybe she doesn't 'get' this current wave of pop. But she was on top of the world once, and that's once more than most people get to be.
posted by delfin at 9:13 AM on August 14 [3 favorites]
Lots of people have one really good idea in them, or can be molded into being the right person at the right time to collaborate on and deliver a good idea. To do it repeatedly requires luck, talent and the right circumstances. And if those circumstances change, to adapt to those new circumstances and do it again and again in a different context with a different idea? That's what separates the greats from the rest of the pack.
But there's no shame in not hitting the same heights in sales, in critical acclaim, in prominence if what you do later on is what you want to be doing.
I have no problem with Chappell Roan; I watched a handful of her videos just now, and they're perfectly good pop songs. I can see why she's breaking out as a rising star. But she's also had one album, one sustained burst of creativity, one big wave she's riding -- and she should enjoy every second of that ride!
Because you never know if the next wave will be as big, if you'll find yourself just as inspired the next time around, if the audience will have moved onto someone else or not, if you're capable of adjusting yourself to meet new standards (or to set new standards) or if you have your own niche and, whether others follow you into it or not, that's where you live and you're comfortable.
Maybe Katy is a dinosaur now. Maybe she doesn't 'get' this current wave of pop. But she was on top of the world once, and that's once more than most people get to be.
posted by delfin at 9:13 AM on August 14 [3 favorites]
I honestly didn't mention Kesha because she's had to take a lot of random tagging/discourse thanks to Dr Luke being associated with all this/in the news, and figured she's better left out of it.
That's totally fair. My thoughts are just:
1. I'm a huge Kesha fan (which is tricky because she made a lot of absolute bangers during the Dr. Luke era of her career which I'd like to be able to still enjoy unambiguously but that piece of shit has made that impossible) and
2. Kesha didn't have a "flop era" because she instead had to spend what could have been the dynastic period of her career in the hinterlands, prohibited from working, because she was sticking to her principles. She always had a unique voice and personality (and a carefully chosen and curated one at that. This Tom Breihan column goes into it quite a bit. It also mentions that Kesha and Katy Perry are, or at least were, friends, which makes Perry's working with Dr. Luke now even grosser.) But once she was able to work again, she came out with Rainbow, an absolute motherfucker of an album that let her show off the full range of what she could do and was interested in doing, and which was clearly made up of her own decisions and creations.
Basically, Kesha has been on both sides of that "trust the label/trust yourself" divide, has reinvented herself and secured her legacy, her fifteen-year-old stuff still holds up (though again, it sucks that Dr. Luke produced it) and I don't think it's implausible to say that she helped pave the way for this generations female pop stars to have the freedom to do what they want and be who they are.
I don't have any hate for Katy Perry. Her stuff has always been surface-level to put it nicely, but Teenage Dream is wall-to-wall hits that I still haven't grown sick of. And continuing to ride that kind of wave forever is wildly difficult. But don't work with Dr. Luke. I mean what the shit, Katy.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:26 AM on August 14 [4 favorites]
That's totally fair. My thoughts are just:
1. I'm a huge Kesha fan (which is tricky because she made a lot of absolute bangers during the Dr. Luke era of her career which I'd like to be able to still enjoy unambiguously but that piece of shit has made that impossible) and
2. Kesha didn't have a "flop era" because she instead had to spend what could have been the dynastic period of her career in the hinterlands, prohibited from working, because she was sticking to her principles. She always had a unique voice and personality (and a carefully chosen and curated one at that. This Tom Breihan column goes into it quite a bit. It also mentions that Kesha and Katy Perry are, or at least were, friends, which makes Perry's working with Dr. Luke now even grosser.) But once she was able to work again, she came out with Rainbow, an absolute motherfucker of an album that let her show off the full range of what she could do and was interested in doing, and which was clearly made up of her own decisions and creations.
Basically, Kesha has been on both sides of that "trust the label/trust yourself" divide, has reinvented herself and secured her legacy, her fifteen-year-old stuff still holds up (though again, it sucks that Dr. Luke produced it) and I don't think it's implausible to say that she helped pave the way for this generations female pop stars to have the freedom to do what they want and be who they are.
I don't have any hate for Katy Perry. Her stuff has always been surface-level to put it nicely, but Teenage Dream is wall-to-wall hits that I still haven't grown sick of. And continuing to ride that kind of wave forever is wildly difficult. But don't work with Dr. Luke. I mean what the shit, Katy.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:26 AM on August 14 [4 favorites]
Lots of people have one really good idea in them, or can be molded into being the right person at the right time to collaborate on and deliver a good idea. To do it repeatedly requires luck, talent and the right circumstances. And if those circumstances change, to adapt to those new circumstances and do it again and again in a different context with a different idea? That's what separates the greats from the rest of the pack.
This reminds me of a conversation I had many years ago with a musician/producer friend, where I asked "WTF happened to Weezer?" and his response was, basically, "It's rare enough to have one classic album in the tank, let alone two."
Now, I tend to think that creativity is a muscle that gets practiced with exercise, and that even if you don't keep making the charts, you can keep making quality stuff as long as you keep actively working at it, but I also know that inspiration comes in fits and starts and it's hard if not impossible to force that. Some creative people keep working away and maybe put out not their best material but keep the faith that inspiration will meet up with them once again. Others wait until they're proud of what they're putting out there. With this new Katy Perry stuff, though, it doesn't feel like either. It feels like "I should record some new stuff if I want to be in the spotlight again." And that's not a great look. But also, what do I know? For all I know she felt like her creative muscles were atrophying and that she needed to get back into practice no matter what the reception was, but being a star at her level, there was no smaller way to do that. So I can't fault her for any of it, really, except for, again, working with Dr. Luke.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:58 AM on August 14 [4 favorites]
This reminds me of a conversation I had many years ago with a musician/producer friend, where I asked "WTF happened to Weezer?" and his response was, basically, "It's rare enough to have one classic album in the tank, let alone two."
Now, I tend to think that creativity is a muscle that gets practiced with exercise, and that even if you don't keep making the charts, you can keep making quality stuff as long as you keep actively working at it, but I also know that inspiration comes in fits and starts and it's hard if not impossible to force that. Some creative people keep working away and maybe put out not their best material but keep the faith that inspiration will meet up with them once again. Others wait until they're proud of what they're putting out there. With this new Katy Perry stuff, though, it doesn't feel like either. It feels like "I should record some new stuff if I want to be in the spotlight again." And that's not a great look. But also, what do I know? For all I know she felt like her creative muscles were atrophying and that she needed to get back into practice no matter what the reception was, but being a star at her level, there was no smaller way to do that. So I can't fault her for any of it, really, except for, again, working with Dr. Luke.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:58 AM on August 14 [4 favorites]
I'm amused because I know Katy Perry's music from when my son was little and loved -- loved -- her concert video, and I know Chappell Roan from when my same son played me Pink Pony Club a few years ago. To every pop star, there is a season.
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:41 AM on August 14 [1 favorite]
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:41 AM on August 14 [1 favorite]
Some thoughts about the current state of pop music:
I think the era of manufactured woman pop artists is largely over for the time being. I think that a number of things have contributed to this. With all of the awfulness of Dr. Luke and what he did to Ke$ha along with the rise of female pop artists who write their own lyrics about their own lives and struggles has really resonated with a whole lot of people.
People don't want to hear Katy Perry sing a song about "tee-hee I smooched another girl and I hope my boyfriend doesn't mind" written by a man. I know she is a co-writer but that is a Max Martin song through and through.
The rise of Taylor Swift and popularity of her songs that she writes about her romantic entanglements and personal relationships, even if they are all based on celebrities, have a very wide appeal it turns out. Olivia Rodrigo is also in that vein. While Rodrigo was also a famous Disney kid, her own songs about being young and heartbroken really kill with young people.
Chappell Roan is just a perfect storm of this change to POP artists who write their own songs. Sure, there have been many women singer songwriter types who have had great success, but they were always pushed "oh, she is alternative, oh, she is folk, oh she is for the Lilith Fair crowd." Alanis Morrisette, Jewel, Fiona Apple come to mind.
But Chappell Roan is different in that she was never famous as a kid like Rodrigo, she doesn't have hilariously rich parents like Swift. She is regular just like all of us, who fails. But she also puts out the absolute hottest bangers of pop songs. In addition, there hasn't been someone quite like Chappell Roan who could capture the young queer community like she has. Her songs are explicitly queer, kinda horny, but also speak to the regular 20-year-olds like Rodrigo can't. She had to move home to Missouri after she failed the first time. That would have never been a thing for a Rodrigo or Sabrina Carpenter.
Also, did I mention that all of her songs are stone-cold bangers?
Anyway, what is the point of Katy Perry when you can have something that speaks to you on a personal level?
posted by toddforbid at 11:53 AM on August 14 [9 favorites]
I think the era of manufactured woman pop artists is largely over for the time being. I think that a number of things have contributed to this. With all of the awfulness of Dr. Luke and what he did to Ke$ha along with the rise of female pop artists who write their own lyrics about their own lives and struggles has really resonated with a whole lot of people.
People don't want to hear Katy Perry sing a song about "tee-hee I smooched another girl and I hope my boyfriend doesn't mind" written by a man. I know she is a co-writer but that is a Max Martin song through and through.
The rise of Taylor Swift and popularity of her songs that she writes about her romantic entanglements and personal relationships, even if they are all based on celebrities, have a very wide appeal it turns out. Olivia Rodrigo is also in that vein. While Rodrigo was also a famous Disney kid, her own songs about being young and heartbroken really kill with young people.
Chappell Roan is just a perfect storm of this change to POP artists who write their own songs. Sure, there have been many women singer songwriter types who have had great success, but they were always pushed "oh, she is alternative, oh, she is folk, oh she is for the Lilith Fair crowd." Alanis Morrisette, Jewel, Fiona Apple come to mind.
But Chappell Roan is different in that she was never famous as a kid like Rodrigo, she doesn't have hilariously rich parents like Swift. She is regular just like all of us, who fails. But she also puts out the absolute hottest bangers of pop songs. In addition, there hasn't been someone quite like Chappell Roan who could capture the young queer community like she has. Her songs are explicitly queer, kinda horny, but also speak to the regular 20-year-olds like Rodrigo can't. She had to move home to Missouri after she failed the first time. That would have never been a thing for a Rodrigo or Sabrina Carpenter.
Also, did I mention that all of her songs are stone-cold bangers?
Anyway, what is the point of Katy Perry when you can have something that speaks to you on a personal level?
posted by toddforbid at 11:53 AM on August 14 [9 favorites]
Anyway, I saw Chappell Roan in concert at a smallish venue in June. I have never, in my 20+ years of concert-going experience, seen a crowd so gleeful to be at that concert. It was wild.
posted by toddforbid at 11:57 AM on August 14 [7 favorites]
posted by toddforbid at 11:57 AM on August 14 [7 favorites]
> Anyway, I saw Chappell Roan in concert at a smallish venue in June. I have never, in my 20+ years of concert-going experience, seen a crowd so gleeful to be at that concert. It was wild.
you monster how could you have actually had one of my main wish-i-knew-about-this-when-it-was-still-possible experiences i am literally metaphorically dying of jealousy i’m pretty sure vis a vis chappell venues it’s gonna be stadiums from here on out
anyway it has been brought to my attention that that one line from charli/billie’s “guess” isn’t actually that good, it’s just i really didn’t expect billie eilish’s next move to be “become kinda predatory-but-in-a-fun-way queer recruiter” and i find that extremely hilarious
obviously the wand and a rabbit bit from red wine supernova is the greatest line ever written. i apologize for the misidentification, but in my defense i will say:
you monster how could you have actually had one of my main wish-i-knew-about-this-when-it-was-still-possible experiences i am literally metaphorically dying of jealousy i’m pretty sure vis a vis chappell venues it’s gonna be stadiums from here on out
anyway it has been brought to my attention that that one line from charli/billie’s “guess” isn’t actually that good, it’s just i really didn’t expect billie eilish’s next move to be “become kinda predatory-but-in-a-fun-way queer recruiter” and i find that extremely hilarious
obviously the wand and a rabbit bit from red wine supernova is the greatest line ever written. i apologize for the misidentification, but in my defense i will say:
- i really love the whole “what if technologic but it is super mega filthy” bit of guess it’s brilliant
- i was at that moment incredibly high
bombastic lowercase pronouncements: Also, Billie sells the hell out of that line.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:12 AM on August 15 [1 favorite]
posted by Navelgazer at 9:12 AM on August 15 [1 favorite]
MTV has announced that Katy Perry will be the recipient of this year’s Michael Jackson Video Vanguard Award, the VMAs’ lifetime-achievement recognition.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:51 PM on August 15 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:51 PM on August 15 [3 favorites]
bombastic, just I made a mashup of Technologic and Guess. Is it ok to post that here?
...ahh screw it, why not-- here it is just for fun
posted by tovarisch at 9:32 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]
...ahh screw it, why not-- here it is just for fun
posted by tovarisch at 9:32 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]
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posted by Samuel Farrow at 9:46 PM on August 12 [2 favorites]