The gloom of the Anglosphere
August 13, 2024 2:13 AM Subscribe
So youth in English-speaking Canada are becoming sadder faster than those in French-speaking Canada, and measures of teen suicidality are rising in the Anglosphere but less so in similar less-English-speaking countries. What’s the deal with Anglosphere despair? from America’s Top Export May Be Anxiety [The Atlantic; ungated] [CW: suicide, depression]
I don't understand how this hypothesis explains the divide between Quebec and Ontario. In my experience all francophone Canadians speak excellent English, if they want to. And for what it's worth, that also sort of kills i_am_joe's_spleen's hypothesis, even though that was also my first thought. Or are there big differences between the provinces that I don't know of?
And in a way the same thing applies in other countries: my daughter teaches English, and she says most of her students already speak fairly good English when they begin learning it at school, because of the global media, and not least because of gaming. So while English as a second language 20 years ago started with picture books and simple phrases, they now move on to more advanced things like grammar and spelling almost from day 1.
It's a very interesting question, though.
Since this is about teenagers, who are probably still living at home, I thought about family dynamics. In my experience, countries outside the Anglosphere tend to have more regulated family lives. Obviously there is not one set of rules, living in Japan is very different from living in France. But there are rules, about meals, and bedtimes and social activities that form a framework that is pretty universally upheld.
Most countries in the Anglosphere are very culturally diverse, and they can't or won't uphold the same rules for everyone. France is also a diverse country, but the school system ensures that the students learn French social mores, because that is their traditional method of integration, finely honed through the process of integrating France itself from several distinct countries into one nation. Actually, anyone in la Francophonie who has attended a French school will have learnt this, to some extent.
posted by mumimor at 4:16 AM on August 13 [7 favorites]
And in a way the same thing applies in other countries: my daughter teaches English, and she says most of her students already speak fairly good English when they begin learning it at school, because of the global media, and not least because of gaming. So while English as a second language 20 years ago started with picture books and simple phrases, they now move on to more advanced things like grammar and spelling almost from day 1.
It's a very interesting question, though.
Since this is about teenagers, who are probably still living at home, I thought about family dynamics. In my experience, countries outside the Anglosphere tend to have more regulated family lives. Obviously there is not one set of rules, living in Japan is very different from living in France. But there are rules, about meals, and bedtimes and social activities that form a framework that is pretty universally upheld.
Most countries in the Anglosphere are very culturally diverse, and they can't or won't uphold the same rules for everyone. France is also a diverse country, but the school system ensures that the students learn French social mores, because that is their traditional method of integration, finely honed through the process of integrating France itself from several distinct countries into one nation. Actually, anyone in la Francophonie who has attended a French school will have learnt this, to some extent.
posted by mumimor at 4:16 AM on August 13 [7 favorites]
In my experience all francophone Canadians speak excellent English, if they want to. And for what it's worth, that also sort of kills i_am_joe's_spleen's hypothesis, even though that was also my first thought. Or are there big differences between the provinces that I don't know of?
This is very much not true outside of Montreal, and even within Montreal depends on location and, to a big extent, wealth. Many Québécois people have either low or no understanding of English, and consume very little Anglo content, either because they don’t have the language skills for it or simply because they don’t care to. This includes teenagers.
posted by third word on a random page at 5:15 AM on August 13 [25 favorites]
This is very much not true outside of Montreal, and even within Montreal depends on location and, to a big extent, wealth. Many Québécois people have either low or no understanding of English, and consume very little Anglo content, either because they don’t have the language skills for it or simply because they don’t care to. This includes teenagers.
posted by third word on a random page at 5:15 AM on August 13 [25 favorites]
This is very much not true outside of Montreal, and even within Montreal depends on location and, to a big extent, wealth. Many Québécois people have either low or no understanding of English, and consume very little Anglo content, either because they don’t have the language skills for it or simply because they don’t care to. This includes teenagers.
Absolutely! If you have ever lived outside of Montreal or traveled outside of it, English is not an guarantee. I am a former Eastern Townships resident and you can super see the clear divide between Anglophones (and also? not all Anglophones make any attempt to learn French) and Francophones.
There is a whole separate culture in Quebec of pop stars, movie stars, etc that Anglo Canada doesn't pay much attention to unless there is some sort of bilingual crossover hit. While Quebec's Francophone chest-pounding can get annoying, they are really a distinct culture in North America. I get why they are protective of it.
posted by Kitteh at 5:25 AM on August 13 [18 favorites]
Absolutely! If you have ever lived outside of Montreal or traveled outside of it, English is not an guarantee. I am a former Eastern Townships resident and you can super see the clear divide between Anglophones (and also? not all Anglophones make any attempt to learn French) and Francophones.
There is a whole separate culture in Quebec of pop stars, movie stars, etc that Anglo Canada doesn't pay much attention to unless there is some sort of bilingual crossover hit. While Quebec's Francophone chest-pounding can get annoying, they are really a distinct culture in North America. I get why they are protective of it.
posted by Kitteh at 5:25 AM on August 13 [18 favorites]
Just because they speak excellent English as a second language doesn't mean that they will want to spend their time engaging with English media (social or otherwise). In my experience with family and co-workers, if French is their first language, that is the media they will mostly interact with. That's not to say they don't read/watch things in English, but it is not 100% of what they see. Unlike English speakers.
posted by exolstice at 5:25 AM on August 13 [12 favorites]
posted by exolstice at 5:25 AM on August 13 [12 favorites]
Oh my gosh, ask Shepherd about being the only Anglophone in a Francophone workplace. He has some good stories about how much Francophones rarely engage with English media because, well, they already have their own robust media. This is not to say they don't know English pop culture, but they aren't as steeped in it as the rest of us are.
posted by Kitteh at 5:37 AM on August 13 [11 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 5:37 AM on August 13 [11 favorites]
In my experience all francophone Canadians speak excellent English
Apologies for kind of piling on here, but up in the general Saguenay area (Chicoutimi, Jonquière, etc.) English is not at all universally spoken, you need a bit of French to get through the day. (Also, what Kitteh said.)
posted by gimonca at 5:40 AM on August 13 [7 favorites]
Apologies for kind of piling on here, but up in the general Saguenay area (Chicoutimi, Jonquière, etc.) English is not at all universally spoken, you need a bit of French to get through the day. (Also, what Kitteh said.)
posted by gimonca at 5:40 AM on August 13 [7 favorites]
Or are there big differences between the provinces that I don't know of?
In addition to the distinct culture, Quebec has significantly better renter protections than other Canadian provinces, and the cost of living in Montreal is still not great but not bad on quite the same level as other Canadian cities of comparable to larger size.
posted by eviemath at 5:40 AM on August 13 [20 favorites]
In addition to the distinct culture, Quebec has significantly better renter protections than other Canadian provinces, and the cost of living in Montreal is still not great but not bad on quite the same level as other Canadian cities of comparable to larger size.
posted by eviemath at 5:40 AM on August 13 [20 favorites]
j'aime quebec
posted by HearHere at 5:41 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
posted by HearHere at 5:41 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
While Quebec's Francophone chest-pounding can get annoying, they are really a distinct culture in North America. I get why they are protective of it.
It's all fine until they spill over into racist fuckery. Then Quebec nationalism needs a smackdown.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 5:48 AM on August 13 [9 favorites]
It's all fine until they spill over into racist fuckery. Then Quebec nationalism needs a smackdown.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 5:48 AM on August 13 [9 favorites]
Rent in Montreal is about 33% less than Toronto. And Quebec City rents are HALF Toronto. Could be a factor!!!!!
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:51 AM on August 13 [16 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:51 AM on August 13 [16 favorites]
Benchmark (3/2 SFH) Home Price
British Columbia $981,500 (5.5 million people) Ontario 885,100 (15 million) Alberta 518,400 (4.7 million) Quebec 488,100 (8.8 million)posted by torokunai at 5:51 AM on August 13 [6 favorites]
I watch yt several hours a day an the shit it pushes to me is really something. Some random economics channel saying "Douglas Murray Was Right" came up this AM. Thanks, Google, great job.
Even the more acceptable (i.e. non-Misean) stuff I find seems to be generated by RT-like creators more interested in shit-stirring hypercritical slams than balanced, thoughtful analysis.
posted by torokunai at 5:59 AM on August 13 [2 favorites]
Even the more acceptable (i.e. non-Misean) stuff I find seems to be generated by RT-like creators more interested in shit-stirring hypercritical slams than balanced, thoughtful analysis.
posted by torokunai at 5:59 AM on August 13 [2 favorites]
Thanks for all the information! Very interesting. Since I have not been in Quebec, all the francophone Canadians I have met, I have met other places, were they are probably more likely to speak English. Though I have definitely met some who tried to trick me into speaking French.
One more question about Quebec: if you are in the Middle East or Africa, and you go to French schools, you will get the exact same curriculum as in any school in France, and the same culture. I visited a college in Morocco and we even had French food, but I don't think that is strictly the norm, I think it was special occasion food because of our visit. Anyway, is that also the case in Quebec?
Now about the cost of living, is that a factor for teenagers? I can see how teens will be less happy if their parents are worried all the time -- but how big of an issue is it?
posted by mumimor at 6:02 AM on August 13 [1 favorite]
One more question about Quebec: if you are in the Middle East or Africa, and you go to French schools, you will get the exact same curriculum as in any school in France, and the same culture. I visited a college in Morocco and we even had French food, but I don't think that is strictly the norm, I think it was special occasion food because of our visit. Anyway, is that also the case in Quebec?
Now about the cost of living, is that a factor for teenagers? I can see how teens will be less happy if their parents are worried all the time -- but how big of an issue is it?
posted by mumimor at 6:02 AM on August 13 [1 favorite]
Since I have not been in Quebec, all the francophone Canadians I have met, I have met other places, were they are probably more likely to speak English.
That was my husband's feel. If you are meeting Quebeckers outside of Quebec traveling, they are much more likely to be bilingual than if you yourself were going to rock up to Chicoutimi and expecting to be spoken to in English.
posted by Kitteh at 6:05 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
That was my husband's feel. If you are meeting Quebeckers outside of Quebec traveling, they are much more likely to be bilingual than if you yourself were going to rock up to Chicoutimi and expecting to be spoken to in English.
posted by Kitteh at 6:05 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
One more question about Quebec: if you are in the Middle East or Africa, and you go to French schools, you will get the exact same curriculum as in any school in France, and the same culture. I visited a college in Morocco and we even had French food, but I don't think that is strictly the norm, I think it was special occasion food because of our visit. Anyway, is that also the case in Quebec?
Oh no. While Quebec gets the hugest influx of French-speaking immigrants from those countries, their curriculum is quite different. I am an English speaking immigrant who was in French language classes (free if you aren't a native citizen) and their whole vibe is very much a focus on their French culture, which is not the same as the culture in France.
posted by Kitteh at 6:08 AM on August 13 [8 favorites]
Oh no. While Quebec gets the hugest influx of French-speaking immigrants from those countries, their curriculum is quite different. I am an English speaking immigrant who was in French language classes (free if you aren't a native citizen) and their whole vibe is very much a focus on their French culture, which is not the same as the culture in France.
posted by Kitteh at 6:08 AM on August 13 [8 favorites]
mumimor, I'd suggest doing some reading about Quebecois culture before commenting further; the idea that Quebec is just mini-France is... so wrong as to be offensive, basically?
posted by sagc at 6:14 AM on August 13 [12 favorites]
posted by sagc at 6:14 AM on August 13 [12 favorites]
So the US spent forty years chipping away at economic stability for the working and middle class, then installed a bunch of tech overlords whose wealth acceleration depends on keeping people slavishly engaged with bad news and it turns out we're less happy?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:24 AM on August 13 [18 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:24 AM on August 13 [18 favorites]
Ugh, spelling it out, a big factor into why young adults are depressed in Anglo Canada is because they can't afford to move out of their parents' houses to start an independent life of their own. In Quebec the availability of affordable housing for entry-level workers is much higher. There may be other factors sure, but this one is just screamingly obvious.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:27 AM on August 13 [9 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:27 AM on August 13 [9 favorites]
mumimor, I'd suggest doing some reading about Quebecois culture before commenting further; the idea that Quebec is just mini-France is... so wrong as to be offensive, basically?
I don't at all think Quebec is a mini-France, it is not my impression at all, and I am a little offended that is what you think. I'm trying to figure out some answers to the question posed in the article: why are teenagers in the Anglophone countries/cultures less happy than in other cultures, with Quebec being a very interesting example.
I'm asking those of you who know questions, because I know I don't know.
And to get back on topic: teenagers all over the world are on the internet all the time. Why should anglophone teenagers be more affected than teenagers who speak other languages? The theory that the internet alone is at fault doesn't seem to me to hold up.
It's teenagers, not young adults, so the economic theory doesn't seem to hold either.
posted by mumimor at 6:33 AM on August 13 [6 favorites]
I don't at all think Quebec is a mini-France, it is not my impression at all, and I am a little offended that is what you think. I'm trying to figure out some answers to the question posed in the article: why are teenagers in the Anglophone countries/cultures less happy than in other cultures, with Quebec being a very interesting example.
I'm asking those of you who know questions, because I know I don't know.
And to get back on topic: teenagers all over the world are on the internet all the time. Why should anglophone teenagers be more affected than teenagers who speak other languages? The theory that the internet alone is at fault doesn't seem to me to hold up.
It's teenagers, not young adults, so the economic theory doesn't seem to hold either.
posted by mumimor at 6:33 AM on August 13 [6 favorites]
One time I went to a gastropub in Québec City and the waiter came over - a mid to late twenties bearded hipster in plaid, a stock uniform that I wore myself at the time - and he simply did not have enough english in him to take our order and i thought to myself:
Québec is the only place in the entire world where having zero functional english does not disqualify you from a service job that caters to tourists, what a beautiful province.
posted by pmv at 6:34 AM on August 13 [14 favorites]
Québec is the only place in the entire world where having zero functional english does not disqualify you from a service job that caters to tourists, what a beautiful province.
posted by pmv at 6:34 AM on August 13 [14 favorites]
>Ugh, spelling it out, a big factor into why young adults are depressed in Anglo Canada is because they can't afford to move out of their parents' houses to start an independent life of their own. In Quebec the availability of affordable housing for entry-level workers is much higher. There may be other factors sure, but this one is just screamingly obvious.
/me puts on housing policy dork hat
academics who study housing actually have pointed out that there is a noticeable divide in how housing markets are organized. over the past two decades anglosphere (US, CA, UK, AUS, etc) countries have all converged towards housing affordability crises, while markets in Germany and France are less dramatically impacted.
iirc some of the causal theories as to why? include:
- legacy of common law systems, which provide more local control over land use policy
- the anglo political culture going hard on neoliberalism & destroying their state housing systems to a greater extent
posted by pmv at 6:39 AM on August 13 [21 favorites]
/me puts on housing policy dork hat
academics who study housing actually have pointed out that there is a noticeable divide in how housing markets are organized. over the past two decades anglosphere (US, CA, UK, AUS, etc) countries have all converged towards housing affordability crises, while markets in Germany and France are less dramatically impacted.
iirc some of the causal theories as to why? include:
- legacy of common law systems, which provide more local control over land use policy
- the anglo political culture going hard on neoliberalism & destroying their state housing systems to a greater extent
posted by pmv at 6:39 AM on August 13 [21 favorites]
I saw a tweet that said something about how we seem to be forever trying to glean lessons about longevity from other countries (do they live longer because they eat olives? fish? because they drink red wine?) when really the answer is probably "It costs $6 to see a doctor there" and yeah, people live longer when their old age isn't behind a paywall.
It's a valuable lesson because it reminds us not to use a micro lens on a macro problem. Why are young people with lower incomes than their parents had, who can't afford their own homes, and will probably never be able to retire feeling unhappy? Maybe it's something on their social media feed? Um, no.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:56 AM on August 13 [30 favorites]
It's a valuable lesson because it reminds us not to use a micro lens on a macro problem. Why are young people with lower incomes than their parents had, who can't afford their own homes, and will probably never be able to retire feeling unhappy? Maybe it's something on their social media feed? Um, no.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:56 AM on August 13 [30 favorites]
Teen angst...
posted by Czjewel at 7:04 AM on August 13 [1 favorite]
posted by Czjewel at 7:04 AM on August 13 [1 favorite]
I could expand a lot on what pmv says, because I made a comparative study on it once, for a political client who wanted to create better housing options. But, I think it's a derail.
It's intuitively a good theory, but the cost and availability of housing in the other countries mentioned in the article are very similar to those in North America, relative to people's income in those countries. An American with an American source of income may find housing in Europe or the former Soviet Union affordable, but as a native of those countries, it is not. Which is why lots of people in those countries are still living at their parent's house well up in their 20s or even 30s. It's also one of many reasons people give for why they don't get children.
Yes, there is affordable social housing or equivalents, but the waiting lists are very, very long, in some places you may wait decades for tiny apartments. And of course, there is the location issue. Homelessness is probably more rare among people with jobs outside the Anglosphere, because there are other perceptions of public social responsibility in many of those countries, but you won't get necessarily a home near your job or with good infrastructure.
posted by mumimor at 7:15 AM on August 13 [6 favorites]
It's intuitively a good theory, but the cost and availability of housing in the other countries mentioned in the article are very similar to those in North America, relative to people's income in those countries. An American with an American source of income may find housing in Europe or the former Soviet Union affordable, but as a native of those countries, it is not. Which is why lots of people in those countries are still living at their parent's house well up in their 20s or even 30s. It's also one of many reasons people give for why they don't get children.
Yes, there is affordable social housing or equivalents, but the waiting lists are very, very long, in some places you may wait decades for tiny apartments. And of course, there is the location issue. Homelessness is probably more rare among people with jobs outside the Anglosphere, because there are other perceptions of public social responsibility in many of those countries, but you won't get necessarily a home near your job or with good infrastructure.
posted by mumimor at 7:15 AM on August 13 [6 favorites]
I didn't get too far into that article before coming to the conclusion the writer had little useful to say on the subject ("Why would teens in the most economically advanced (i.e. English speaking) parts of the world be more suicidal???" Paraphrasing, but still...). Others here have touched on the neoliberal destruction of civil society (in the US and Britain at least, which I am most familiar with - less aware of what's going on in CA/AU/NZ), focusing on the explosion of housing costs, which is valid. But we're seeing predatory "inflation" (mostly price gouging) in all consumer goods sectors, coupled with wage stagnation and brutal oppression of workers rights that's gone on for decades now.
Teens see this, of course, and it may be affecting their view of their future, but you know what really affects their quality of life? Their home life and family dynamics. And their parents and other adult family members are absolutely seeing and feeling the stress and other negative results from this (see also the systematic dismantling of (or refusal to address) social services/support for families and children). Well-documented effects of that kind of stress are increased rates of domestic violence, alcoholism and other drug addiction, depression, housing and food insecurity -- the list goes on and on. To me, increased teen depression and suicide are just more of the expected and predictable results of the neoliberal predations forced on us by the monsters who rule us.
posted by Pedantzilla at 7:22 AM on August 13 [16 favorites]
Teens see this, of course, and it may be affecting their view of their future, but you know what really affects their quality of life? Their home life and family dynamics. And their parents and other adult family members are absolutely seeing and feeling the stress and other negative results from this (see also the systematic dismantling of (or refusal to address) social services/support for families and children). Well-documented effects of that kind of stress are increased rates of domestic violence, alcoholism and other drug addiction, depression, housing and food insecurity -- the list goes on and on. To me, increased teen depression and suicide are just more of the expected and predictable results of the neoliberal predations forced on us by the monsters who rule us.
posted by Pedantzilla at 7:22 AM on August 13 [16 favorites]
Thank you for posting this, chavenet, a fascinating and important subject. Economic deprivation and family cleavages caused by the continuing neoliberal experiment in Anglo countries seem like they would be causes.
However, I feel like there's also something else going on? My circle, which is relatively high income, educated, and left-leaning, is extremely miserable and negative. So many parents I know, who are all in pretty good economic circumstances and are pretty well 'established', are anxious, doom-scrolling through social media, and generally sad, to the point that some have trouble getting out of the house. I can't help but feel like these 'vibes' are getting absorbed by kids? Many of my circle have kids under 10, which is an incredibly joyous time (provided you have the means to provide for them), but I see so little joy in my peers' lives. I don't have a theory to explain the parents' misery, but I'm sure kids are absorbing it from parents.
posted by sid at 8:20 AM on August 13 [8 favorites]
However, I feel like there's also something else going on? My circle, which is relatively high income, educated, and left-leaning, is extremely miserable and negative. So many parents I know, who are all in pretty good economic circumstances and are pretty well 'established', are anxious, doom-scrolling through social media, and generally sad, to the point that some have trouble getting out of the house. I can't help but feel like these 'vibes' are getting absorbed by kids? Many of my circle have kids under 10, which is an incredibly joyous time (provided you have the means to provide for them), but I see so little joy in my peers' lives. I don't have a theory to explain the parents' misery, but I'm sure kids are absorbing it from parents.
posted by sid at 8:20 AM on August 13 [8 favorites]
>left-leaning, is extremely miserable and negative.
the 30 years since the Gingrich takeover have SUCKED
Democrats have held the federal trifecta for a grand total of 4 YEARS since 1994, and of course have had to thread the increasing tight needle of Senate and SCOTUS obstructionism.
The opportunity cost of the past 40+ years has indeed been soul-crushing.
posted by torokunai at 8:29 AM on August 13 [11 favorites]
the 30 years since the Gingrich takeover have SUCKED
Democrats have held the federal trifecta for a grand total of 4 YEARS since 1994, and of course have had to thread the increasing tight needle of Senate and SCOTUS obstructionism.
The opportunity cost of the past 40+ years has indeed been soul-crushing.
posted by torokunai at 8:29 AM on August 13 [11 favorites]
On the bright side though: think of all the shareholder value that has been created over the last few decades.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:31 AM on August 13 [12 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:31 AM on August 13 [12 favorites]
The effective Corporate tax rate was ~25% 1975-2000 and ~11% now, so ~half of the 5% 1999-2024 CAGR of the S&P 500 is due to that.
Much of the other half of equity gain is due to the massive gov't deficit spending I guess:
Federal Debt to total wages (%) shows we've been allowing the top quintile to buy bonds yielding 3-5%+ to replace the former quasi-confiscatory marginal tax burden they used to have to pay. Good deal if you can get it.
Similar if smaller tax cuts for the lower quintiles have just resulted in us boosting our housing costs, natch.
Lotsa problems, no solutions.
posted by torokunai at 8:40 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
Much of the other half of equity gain is due to the massive gov't deficit spending I guess:
Federal Debt to total wages (%) shows we've been allowing the top quintile to buy bonds yielding 3-5%+ to replace the former quasi-confiscatory marginal tax burden they used to have to pay. Good deal if you can get it.
Similar if smaller tax cuts for the lower quintiles have just resulted in us boosting our housing costs, natch.
Lotsa problems, no solutions.
posted by torokunai at 8:40 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
Democrats have held the federal trifecta for a grand total of 4 YEARS since 1994, and of course have had to thread the increasing tight needle of Senate and SCOTUS obstructionism.
I'm in Canada but I get your point.
I think part of this is how 'online' and global we are now? Like maybe in your day to day life your kids are doing great and you're succeeding at work and you have a healthy bank balance / RRSP, and there's a lot of cause for optimism and happiness in your life, but your social media and your friends are all about the US politics, Gaza, and global warming and these things foment dread and misery and you can't help but get taken over by that and have it affect your life?
I'm pathologically online and a news junkie so I'm one to talk but I bet practicing being 'present' and local would help.
This is not to say that there are prominent structural issues that are leading to this sadness epidemic in our kids, I'm theorizing about my specific circle (which I bet has a broad demographic overlap with MeFi membership).
posted by sid at 8:44 AM on August 13 [5 favorites]
I'm in Canada but I get your point.
I think part of this is how 'online' and global we are now? Like maybe in your day to day life your kids are doing great and you're succeeding at work and you have a healthy bank balance / RRSP, and there's a lot of cause for optimism and happiness in your life, but your social media and your friends are all about the US politics, Gaza, and global warming and these things foment dread and misery and you can't help but get taken over by that and have it affect your life?
I'm pathologically online and a news junkie so I'm one to talk but I bet practicing being 'present' and local would help.
This is not to say that there are prominent structural issues that are leading to this sadness epidemic in our kids, I'm theorizing about my specific circle (which I bet has a broad demographic overlap with MeFi membership).
posted by sid at 8:44 AM on August 13 [5 favorites]
I'm in Canada but I get your point.
Yeah, I mean I know Americans can be insufferable with making things all about ourselves. But if we're talking about identifying the driving factors for accelerating real estate prices, declining real wages, inflation, and general media enshittification, it isn't so much navel-gazing as owning our shit to start the search within our own borders.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:14 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I mean I know Americans can be insufferable with making things all about ourselves. But if we're talking about identifying the driving factors for accelerating real estate prices, declining real wages, inflation, and general media enshittification, it isn't so much navel-gazing as owning our shit to start the search within our own borders.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:14 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
I think it was special occasion food because of our visit. Anyway, is that also the case in Quebec?
No. There are European French restaurants, there are European trained chefs but no neither Quebec nor the rest of French Canada does this. I suspect the reason is that our direct connection to our colonial era with France is a long long time ago. And yeah Quebecois who leave Quebec are going to be non-representative of Quebec as a whole in terms of language.
I spent last week watching a lot of media from the time on the October Crisis (TLDR - a series of Quebec separtist terrorist incidences in the 60s lead up to in 1970 2 kidnappings, a provincial minister & British diplomat, and the eventual death of the minister and release of diplomat). One of the takeaways from the interviews was the general attitudes of the Anglophones and Francophones are not all that different than those of today (particularly noticable in Robin Spry's Reaction).
Different situation obviously but some of the general sentiments are echoed today. Which makes me wonder if Anglo Canada historically skews a bit more into the negative generally and that the brief periods of optimisim are actually more rare. I do get a sense with our recent politics that there is a greater sense of hopelessness, even aside from issues of housing, jobs and the cost of living, among the electorate (not just Gen Z). Doom Scrolling and the creeping horror spill over from America likely don't help our natural predilections.
posted by Ashwagandha at 9:30 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
No. There are European French restaurants, there are European trained chefs but no neither Quebec nor the rest of French Canada does this. I suspect the reason is that our direct connection to our colonial era with France is a long long time ago. And yeah Quebecois who leave Quebec are going to be non-representative of Quebec as a whole in terms of language.
I spent last week watching a lot of media from the time on the October Crisis (TLDR - a series of Quebec separtist terrorist incidences in the 60s lead up to in 1970 2 kidnappings, a provincial minister & British diplomat, and the eventual death of the minister and release of diplomat). One of the takeaways from the interviews was the general attitudes of the Anglophones and Francophones are not all that different than those of today (particularly noticable in Robin Spry's Reaction).
Different situation obviously but some of the general sentiments are echoed today. Which makes me wonder if Anglo Canada historically skews a bit more into the negative generally and that the brief periods of optimisim are actually more rare. I do get a sense with our recent politics that there is a greater sense of hopelessness, even aside from issues of housing, jobs and the cost of living, among the electorate (not just Gen Z). Doom Scrolling and the creeping horror spill over from America likely don't help our natural predilections.
posted by Ashwagandha at 9:30 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
Despite being damaged by high school French[1], I'm also on the "Quebec is not just Ontario en Francais" train.
Quebecois media is almost impenetrable from an anglophone perspective. It's not the language -- I can usually follow at a surface layer, and most programs that are available nationally will have closed captions in English. It's the context that's missing. References that aren't apparent, attitudes that are fundamentally different, and a different perspective on every defining moment of Canadian history.
I envy that quite a bit. Our state sponsored media (CBC) can't call out right wing politicians without being accused of bias. US special interest money is riding roughshod over everything else (I'm looking at you, Rebel Media). While we've had a long history of amazing TV shows, now we have a Law and Order spin-off and Disney claiming that a movie set in Toronto should count as one made there. Where media is concerned, anglophone Canada is losing our identity, while Quebec has retained theirs.
[1]: Canadian anglophone high school French has only a passing relationship to the language as used, well, anywhere. It inherits more from the global French curriculum (that mumimor references), but tries to place it in a national Canadian context. Which is not a Quebecois context.
posted by TheHuntForBlueMonday at 10:00 AM on August 13 [12 favorites]
Quebecois media is almost impenetrable from an anglophone perspective. It's not the language -- I can usually follow at a surface layer, and most programs that are available nationally will have closed captions in English. It's the context that's missing. References that aren't apparent, attitudes that are fundamentally different, and a different perspective on every defining moment of Canadian history.
I envy that quite a bit. Our state sponsored media (CBC) can't call out right wing politicians without being accused of bias. US special interest money is riding roughshod over everything else (I'm looking at you, Rebel Media). While we've had a long history of amazing TV shows, now we have a Law and Order spin-off and Disney claiming that a movie set in Toronto should count as one made there. Where media is concerned, anglophone Canada is losing our identity, while Quebec has retained theirs.
[1]: Canadian anglophone high school French has only a passing relationship to the language as used, well, anywhere. It inherits more from the global French curriculum (that mumimor references), but tries to place it in a national Canadian context. Which is not a Quebecois context.
posted by TheHuntForBlueMonday at 10:00 AM on August 13 [12 favorites]
Is this scientific proof for the widespread French Quebecois impression that their Anglo neighbours have no joie de vivre and abominable culinary taste?
posted by SnowRottie at 10:30 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
posted by SnowRottie at 10:30 AM on August 13 [4 favorites]
One minor example Shepherd and I like to use in terms of how Quebecois have more joie de vivre is their dining habits*. In most Anglo restaurants, you order, you eat, you chat with your friends or date while you eat, maybe you get dessert, then you get your cheque and go. In Quebec, dining out is A Whole Thing. After your meal, after your coffee and dessert, you linger for a long while, catching up with friends or date, you order more coffee or more booze, talk a while more, then maaaaybe you get your cheque and go. When we were living in Quebec and would go out for meals, we definitely noticed that service is attentive but not overly so. They assume you are settling in for a long luxurious meal with coffee and dessert, and then probably more alcohol depending.
My Anglophone spouse lived in the Townships for twenty years and always felt bad about his Protestant conditioning when it came to long dinners. He said it made him impatient and then he felt bad about being impatient because one should really enjoy those long lingering dinners with ones you love or like.
*mid-tier to fine dining, that is
posted by Kitteh at 10:39 AM on August 13 [6 favorites]
My Anglophone spouse lived in the Townships for twenty years and always felt bad about his Protestant conditioning when it came to long dinners. He said it made him impatient and then he felt bad about being impatient because one should really enjoy those long lingering dinners with ones you love or like.
*mid-tier to fine dining, that is
posted by Kitteh at 10:39 AM on August 13 [6 favorites]
Some of this could be memetic-- it's very easy to get people's attention by predicting doom, and arguably there's been a spiral in the anglophone world of increasing doom prediction. Young people have less knowledge of the world's ability to bump along, and are more likely to be depressed by being told about impending doom.
Doom does happen sometimes, but much less often than it's predicted.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:42 AM on August 13 [2 favorites]
Doom does happen sometimes, but much less often than it's predicted.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:42 AM on August 13 [2 favorites]
felt bad about his Protestant conditioning when it came to long dinners.
This is definitely a huge difference between French and English in Canada. Even us, essentially barely French hillbillies when compared to a Montreal sophisticate, take forever to eat. I remember when I was first invited for supper with my now in-laws I was always the last to finish and always rushed (often the plates being cleared up before I finished even my first plate of food). As for "abominable culinary taste", traditional Quebec cuisine is no stranger to oddities - for instance Chinese Macaroni, essentially homemade Hamburger Helper (tasty but hardly haute cuisine).
posted by Ashwagandha at 10:59 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
This is definitely a huge difference between French and English in Canada. Even us, essentially barely French hillbillies when compared to a Montreal sophisticate, take forever to eat. I remember when I was first invited for supper with my now in-laws I was always the last to finish and always rushed (often the plates being cleared up before I finished even my first plate of food). As for "abominable culinary taste", traditional Quebec cuisine is no stranger to oddities - for instance Chinese Macaroni, essentially homemade Hamburger Helper (tasty but hardly haute cuisine).
posted by Ashwagandha at 10:59 AM on August 13 [3 favorites]
This is a very interesting article (whether you agree with the conclusions or not) but am I the only person here who actually read it? The comparison of English-speaking vs French-speaking Canada is only a small portion, there is a lot of other good info here.
However, I feel like there's also something else going on? My circle, which is relatively high income, educated, and left-leaning, is extremely miserable and negative. So many parents I know, who are all in pretty good economic circumstances and are pretty well 'established', are anxious, doom-scrolling through social media, and generally sad, to the point that some have trouble getting out of the house.
Yes, absolutely. I know several Americans in our extended social circle and this has been really noticeable in the last several years, just this constantly increasing feeling of anger and exhaustion that permeates literally everything, it's like society itself is breaking down. I myself had to take a break from US media for the past several months because it was just too much - to the point where I was having noticeable health issues from the constant feeling of stress. And I am extremely privileged in that I can unplug at all, we don't live in the US currently and i rarely use social media so its easy to avoid. Unfortunately it's also a temporary fix, as my residency expires in a year and an extension looks unlikely at this point. Not looking forward to being dragged back into the 24/7 stress ball and "fuck you, figure it out yourself" culture that is life in the US.
I don't have kids but I can totally believe that this is having a knock-on effect with the people who do. I don't know if age has colored my perception, but it just feels very, very different in the US to when I was growing up in the 90s.
posted by photo guy at 11:24 AM on August 13 [6 favorites]
However, I feel like there's also something else going on? My circle, which is relatively high income, educated, and left-leaning, is extremely miserable and negative. So many parents I know, who are all in pretty good economic circumstances and are pretty well 'established', are anxious, doom-scrolling through social media, and generally sad, to the point that some have trouble getting out of the house.
Yes, absolutely. I know several Americans in our extended social circle and this has been really noticeable in the last several years, just this constantly increasing feeling of anger and exhaustion that permeates literally everything, it's like society itself is breaking down. I myself had to take a break from US media for the past several months because it was just too much - to the point where I was having noticeable health issues from the constant feeling of stress. And I am extremely privileged in that I can unplug at all, we don't live in the US currently and i rarely use social media so its easy to avoid. Unfortunately it's also a temporary fix, as my residency expires in a year and an extension looks unlikely at this point. Not looking forward to being dragged back into the 24/7 stress ball and "fuck you, figure it out yourself" culture that is life in the US.
I don't have kids but I can totally believe that this is having a knock-on effect with the people who do. I don't know if age has colored my perception, but it just feels very, very different in the US to when I was growing up in the 90s.
posted by photo guy at 11:24 AM on August 13 [6 favorites]
left-leaning, is extremely miserable and negative.
the 30 years since the Gingrich takeover have SUCKED
arguably there's been a spiral in the anglophone world of increasing doom prediction
I've also noticed this, and I'd be interested if anyone can comment on whether the same thing is happening in non-English-speaking (even if not specifically Quebecois) parts of the internet. I tend interact with pretty left communities online and over the past few months the following have bubbled to the surface several times (and this isn't an exhaustive list).
I'm an adult and I know how to disengage, unfollow, and block other adults when they demonstrate they have a tendency toward spirialing out in public, because I know watching it happen is not great for my mental health. But, like, this sort of thing is very much in the air on the internet and social media and I can't imagine younger people aren't picking it up and reacting to it.
posted by pullayup at 11:33 AM on August 13 [16 favorites]
the 30 years since the Gingrich takeover have SUCKED
arguably there's been a spiral in the anglophone world of increasing doom prediction
I've also noticed this, and I'd be interested if anyone can comment on whether the same thing is happening in non-English-speaking (even if not specifically Quebecois) parts of the internet. I tend interact with pretty left communities online and over the past few months the following have bubbled to the surface several times (and this isn't an exhaustive list).
- Everyone is increasingly saturated with microplastics and forever chemicals. There's nothing you can do to prevent it. Cancer rates will continue to rise. Also it's causing subtle brain damage that's making everyone depressed
- Every covid infection, even mild/asymptomatic cases, leads to compounding frontal/temporal lobe damage. It's making everyone stupider, less empathetic, more impulsive, and more violent. (You've noticed this, right? Everyone is such a bad driver now!) This is also happening to you, but the damage causes anosognosia so you are incapable of assessing your own degree of incapacity. Eventually society will collapse
- Climate change will cause agriculture and eventually the nutrient cycle to fail, likely within the next few decades. Higher temperatures are impairing the function of our dorsolateral prefrontal cortices aking everyone stupider, less empathetic, more impulsive, and more violent. Our children and grandchildren will die of starvation and within 100 years humans and most animals will be extinct. If you're lucky a wet bulb event will kill you quickly
I'm an adult and I know how to disengage, unfollow, and block other adults when they demonstrate they have a tendency toward spirialing out in public, because I know watching it happen is not great for my mental health. But, like, this sort of thing is very much in the air on the internet and social media and I can't imagine younger people aren't picking it up and reacting to it.
posted by pullayup at 11:33 AM on August 13 [16 favorites]
I'm really surprised this hasn't been mentioned until now but...when I was growing up in the 90s, Quebec had the highest suicide rate of any Canadian province, and one of the highest if compared to other countries with similar populations. There was very little insight at the time as to why this was the case.
In the 90s, it was the number one killer of men up until the age of 35. It has since shifted to the 50-64 group. It still kills nearly twice as many people as car accidents. The rate has plateaued after decreasing over the past two decades.
The only higher rates were in the territories, which have significant social problems related to poverty, racism, and substance abuse.
I've lost many friends and acquaintances to suicide here in Quebec. Many of them never saw their 18th birthday. It was just a normal part of growing up here. It affected me so much growing up that I made it the subject of my first graphic novel. I wanted to break through the taboo that surrounded so much discussion of it when I was a teenager.
So make of that what you will when discussing the "anglosphere" and suicide rates, because Quebec is 90 percent francophone.
posted by jordantwodelta at 4:39 PM on August 13 [9 favorites]
In the 90s, it was the number one killer of men up until the age of 35. It has since shifted to the 50-64 group. It still kills nearly twice as many people as car accidents. The rate has plateaued after decreasing over the past two decades.
The only higher rates were in the territories, which have significant social problems related to poverty, racism, and substance abuse.
I've lost many friends and acquaintances to suicide here in Quebec. Many of them never saw their 18th birthday. It was just a normal part of growing up here. It affected me so much growing up that I made it the subject of my first graphic novel. I wanted to break through the taboo that surrounded so much discussion of it when I was a teenager.
So make of that what you will when discussing the "anglosphere" and suicide rates, because Quebec is 90 percent francophone.
posted by jordantwodelta at 4:39 PM on August 13 [9 favorites]
I tend interact with pretty left communities online and over the past few months the following have bubbled to the surface several times (and this isn't an exhaustive list).
I've gotten all of these items presented to me by various peers as well.
All of them are certainly concerning.
My question is... so what? Like shit's bad but is that news? Let's do our best to change things while living our lives with as much joy as we can muster. Life's too short and if we're all fucked anyway why not at least be happy and joyous? One doesn't need to be miserable and depressed to affect change. Energized, happy people are likely more effective change agents than hopeless ones, right?
This is not to suggest that one can will oneself out of clinical depression or like an actual diagnosed mood disorder. I'm more talking about dysthymia and misery caused by the general state of the world as opposed to an organic disease.
posted by sid at 6:05 AM on August 14 [3 favorites]
I've gotten all of these items presented to me by various peers as well.
All of them are certainly concerning.
My question is... so what? Like shit's bad but is that news? Let's do our best to change things while living our lives with as much joy as we can muster. Life's too short and if we're all fucked anyway why not at least be happy and joyous? One doesn't need to be miserable and depressed to affect change. Energized, happy people are likely more effective change agents than hopeless ones, right?
This is not to suggest that one can will oneself out of clinical depression or like an actual diagnosed mood disorder. I'm more talking about dysthymia and misery caused by the general state of the world as opposed to an organic disease.
posted by sid at 6:05 AM on August 14 [3 favorites]
The Guardian /Australia has this today: ‘Alarming’ surge in mental ill health among young people in face of ‘unprecedented’ challenges, experts warn
It doesn't have the focus on the Anglosphere.
posted by mumimor at 7:52 AM on August 14 [5 favorites]
It doesn't have the focus on the Anglosphere.
posted by mumimor at 7:52 AM on August 14 [5 favorites]
This article frustrated me because it ultimately refuses to consider that there may be material causes for increased depression & anxiety in places like Canada, the US, the UK, & NZ.
I am a Canadian and for my whole adult life Liberal (centre/centre right) & Conservative (right) governments cut at our social safety network while cutting corporate tax rates, making it easier for the wealthy to off-shore wealth for tax avoidance, & enabled the massive off-shoring of decent paying jobs.
As a result of many of these policies, housing is incredibly expensive, nearly everyone I know's job seems extremely precarious, and there is no sense that our provincial or federal governments will catch us if we fall. I mean, I make a pretty decent wage and was lucky enough to buy a house I could barely afford 12 years ago, but I am in a much less stable situation than I was even five years ago.
This has definitely contributed to my mental health issues and those of my partner. If I am honest we would have separated in the last year, but neither of us can find affordable housing where one parent could comfortably live with our two kids.
And don't even get me started on the anxiety that is induced by seeing awful climate change predictions come true and knowing that our leaders did nothing in the past and seem committed to doing nothing in the future.
So yeah, I struggle with depression & anxiety. And most of the advice I got from CAMH (Ontario's public mental health resource) when I finally got access to some treatment was 'find a way to work less' and seek out private therapy (which is expensive and not covered by my insurance). Neither of those ideas are possible due to the material conditions of trying to get by in Toronto.
I suppose it is much easier for experts to tell us to stop doom scrolling or theorize about social contagion than take a hard look at the actual problems we have in our societies.
posted by Dalekdad at 10:48 AM on August 14 [10 favorites]
I am a Canadian and for my whole adult life Liberal (centre/centre right) & Conservative (right) governments cut at our social safety network while cutting corporate tax rates, making it easier for the wealthy to off-shore wealth for tax avoidance, & enabled the massive off-shoring of decent paying jobs.
As a result of many of these policies, housing is incredibly expensive, nearly everyone I know's job seems extremely precarious, and there is no sense that our provincial or federal governments will catch us if we fall. I mean, I make a pretty decent wage and was lucky enough to buy a house I could barely afford 12 years ago, but I am in a much less stable situation than I was even five years ago.
This has definitely contributed to my mental health issues and those of my partner. If I am honest we would have separated in the last year, but neither of us can find affordable housing where one parent could comfortably live with our two kids.
And don't even get me started on the anxiety that is induced by seeing awful climate change predictions come true and knowing that our leaders did nothing in the past and seem committed to doing nothing in the future.
So yeah, I struggle with depression & anxiety. And most of the advice I got from CAMH (Ontario's public mental health resource) when I finally got access to some treatment was 'find a way to work less' and seek out private therapy (which is expensive and not covered by my insurance). Neither of those ideas are possible due to the material conditions of trying to get by in Toronto.
I suppose it is much easier for experts to tell us to stop doom scrolling or theorize about social contagion than take a hard look at the actual problems we have in our societies.
posted by Dalekdad at 10:48 AM on August 14 [10 favorites]
>seeing awful climate change predictions come true
this is fine
posted by torokunai at 2:53 PM on August 14 [1 favorite]
this is fine
posted by torokunai at 2:53 PM on August 14 [1 favorite]
Can I blame HGTV?
It's making everybody either a) depressed about their current boring house, or b) driving up prices and making people depressed about the house they will never have.
posted by clawsoon at 4:47 AM on August 15 [2 favorites]
It's making everybody either a) depressed about their current boring house, or b) driving up prices and making people depressed about the house they will never have.
posted by clawsoon at 4:47 AM on August 15 [2 favorites]
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posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 3:02 AM on August 13 [34 favorites]