How is it that so few men like women?
September 7, 2024 7:06 AM Subscribe
"It’s different than knowing you can get women, or wanting to control women, or even loving women. He likes them. He appreciates them. He enjoys their company. Tom Cruise doesn’t like women. Neither does Miles Teller. Channing Tatum likes women. So does Ryan Gosling. Brad Pitt used to like women but doesn’t anymore."
"But isn’t that pretty basic? Don’t most men like women?"
"But isn’t that pretty basic? Don’t most men like women?"
My first reaction to this was the classic "What's not to like?" but then I thought about it a bit. I've had women for co-workers, bosses, and employees and I've gotten along swimmingly with almost all of them. And many of my male colleagues didn't. Never considered the "why", but now it makes sense.
We really need to take a good look at how we raise boys because it sure doesn't seem like we're doing a good job of it.
posted by tommasz at 7:38 AM on September 7 [38 favorites]
We really need to take a good look at how we raise boys because it sure doesn't seem like we're doing a good job of it.
posted by tommasz at 7:38 AM on September 7 [38 favorites]
" He prefers the company of men!" " Who doesn't?"
posted by robbyrobs at 7:44 AM on September 7 [6 favorites]
posted by robbyrobs at 7:44 AM on September 7 [6 favorites]
Years and years of indoctrination? at least, until I got out of catholic school, my entire school time was focused on educating me that women were not people.
The teachers would refer to the all boys class as "ladies", and that was a derogatory thing. I could go on and on. It all seemed stupid to me at the time, especially becuase my mother made most of the money in our family, because my dad worked in the tech industry and was always being laid off, but there was an endless tide of nonsense.
posted by eustatic at 7:59 AM on September 7 [24 favorites]
The teachers would refer to the all boys class as "ladies", and that was a derogatory thing. I could go on and on. It all seemed stupid to me at the time, especially becuase my mother made most of the money in our family, because my dad worked in the tech industry and was always being laid off, but there was an endless tide of nonsense.
posted by eustatic at 7:59 AM on September 7 [24 favorites]
...slogged through his 20s in tiny roles before getting slightly bigger (still small) parts in his early 30s. You pick up a work ethic navigating Hollywood this way — and a certain humility. You also enter stardom as a grown-ass adult.
That part from Petersen's essay about Glenn Powell rings so true. Haven't seen any of his three (!) films from the last year, but now I sure want to. And this from Davis' thoughts in response is...ouch:
Our standard for who we call good men is astonishingly low (basically anyone who is not abusing women, but sometimes even then).
Men get to proudly wear that title of “good” man WHILE not respecting women, not listening to women, not liking women. Treating women like an equal is not a requirement for being a good man.
posted by mediareport at 8:21 AM on September 7 [18 favorites]
That part from Petersen's essay about Glenn Powell rings so true. Haven't seen any of his three (!) films from the last year, but now I sure want to. And this from Davis' thoughts in response is...ouch:
Our standard for who we call good men is astonishingly low (basically anyone who is not abusing women, but sometimes even then).
Men get to proudly wear that title of “good” man WHILE not respecting women, not listening to women, not liking women. Treating women like an equal is not a requirement for being a good man.
posted by mediareport at 8:21 AM on September 7 [18 favorites]
I mean, I like women a hell of a lot more than I like men. It’s just that I can’t stand people in general.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:22 AM on September 7 [42 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 8:22 AM on September 7 [42 favorites]
You also enter stardom as a grown-ass adult.
yeah, there's something to this. George Clooney was also late to stardom, and (as the articles note) has most of the same traits -- looks great in clothes, genuinely likes women, is in on the joke.
I wonder if parenting/heredity comes into it, too. I met Clooney's dad a long time ago at a journalism awards thing. (He was a TV newsman in the Cincinnati area.) Just like his son -- warm, comfortable with women, and damn he looked great.
posted by martin q blank at 8:25 AM on September 7 [13 favorites]
yeah, there's something to this. George Clooney was also late to stardom, and (as the articles note) has most of the same traits -- looks great in clothes, genuinely likes women, is in on the joke.
I wonder if parenting/heredity comes into it, too. I met Clooney's dad a long time ago at a journalism awards thing. (He was a TV newsman in the Cincinnati area.) Just like his son -- warm, comfortable with women, and damn he looked great.
posted by martin q blank at 8:25 AM on September 7 [13 favorites]
I thought the article was kind of eye-rolly—I mean, how can you tell what an actor is really like, given that they're an actor? But then I found that I agreed completely with her list of actors who do and don't like women, right down to "Brad Pitt used to, but he doesn't anymore," and I stand corrected.
posted by Well I never at 8:30 AM on September 7 [21 favorites]
posted by Well I never at 8:30 AM on September 7 [21 favorites]
The question in “Never Meet Your Heroes’… Wives” is framed in terms of “does it matter if this culturally relevant figure doesn’t like/respect women or treat the women in his personal life well?”, but the motivating initial example of Huberman is particularly interesting to me due to him being an academic, meaning he works in the same category of workplace as I work in. The actors and others described also have co-workers, of course, but the academic example is just more directly personal or relevant to me. And I can report that it absolutely matters if one’s co-workers fundamentally don’t like or respect an entire category of their co-workers. And we can indeed tell (per the main fpp links), even if there’s not enough actionable incidents to put together into an equity or human rights complaint. It is infuriating and exhausting to have such a coworker, and it has very real, negative cumulative impacts on women’s careers (again, even if there aren’t specific documentable instances of discrimination). (And of course the data indicate that the effect is even greater for people of color vis-a-vis generically racist coworkers, at least in academia where I work.) The language used in the articles in the FPP means the same thing as the language I’ve used in this comment, but of course lots of people think that sexism or racism must be something more extreme- that they involve active animosity or intentional acts of discrimination. It’s good to have other approachable entry points to talking about this general issue.
posted by eviemath at 8:32 AM on September 7 [43 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 8:32 AM on September 7 [43 favorites]
yeah. just because a man is heterosexual and wants to have sex with women does not in any way mean he likes or respects women, or even really thinks of them as people on the same level he may see himself. and women can often sense this. that's why FedoraMan winds up "friend-zoned". because we can feel the lack of respect and kindness oozing out of his pores.
I feel very lucky to have found my husband, because he truly likes women and enjoys our company.
Idris Elba wears clothes extremely well and seems like he also shares those attributes of ease and charm and I hope he likes women, he's done some interesting work opposite some interesting women (ie Luther, cause Ruth Wilson must be awesome to work with!)
posted by supermedusa at 8:34 AM on September 7 [30 favorites]
I feel very lucky to have found my husband, because he truly likes women and enjoys our company.
Idris Elba wears clothes extremely well and seems like he also shares those attributes of ease and charm and I hope he likes women, he's done some interesting work opposite some interesting women (ie Luther, cause Ruth Wilson must be awesome to work with!)
posted by supermedusa at 8:34 AM on September 7 [30 favorites]
Incels are maybe the most extreme example of heterosexual men who don't like women--they resent or in the worst cases actively hate women for the power that they believe women have to affirm their masculinity and sense of self-worth. I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't part of the problem with men who outwardly present as "Chads" but still don't feel secure in that.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:43 AM on September 7 [9 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:43 AM on September 7 [9 favorites]
That first link is by Anne Helen Petersen, a writer who (imo) absolutely shines brightest when she writes about celebrities and culture. She received her PhD in media studies and wrote her dissertation on the Gossip Industry from 1910-2010. She knows her stuff!
I feel like any woman who's experienced having a male senior manager walk through her department at work saying good morning to the men and ignoring the women can also tell you: we know when men don't like us.
posted by kimberussell at 8:43 AM on September 7 [47 favorites]
I feel like any woman who's experienced having a male senior manager walk through her department at work saying good morning to the men and ignoring the women can also tell you: we know when men don't like us.
posted by kimberussell at 8:43 AM on September 7 [47 favorites]
that's another power play, isn't it? "I don't even have to pretend to like or respect you"
time to destroy the patriarchy!
posted by supermedusa at 8:59 AM on September 7 [10 favorites]
time to destroy the patriarchy!
posted by supermedusa at 8:59 AM on September 7 [10 favorites]
"Don’t most men like women?" Yes.
It isn't quite this simple.
The mention of Tom Cruise is actually a good way to explain why. Because I was initially going to disagree with that - I've seen plenty of interviews with Tom Cruise where he was part of a junket alongside women who were co-stars, and he seemed perfectly fine. He wasn't rude, he wasn't talking over his co-stars, he wasn't dismissive; he was polite and charming and seemed just fine. Many of these interviews where when he was on the Graham Norton Show, where he was one of a handful of people, and he didn't treat the men he was on the panel with any differently than he treated the women.
But then I thought a bit more about how he was acting. He wasn't being dismissive of the women - but he wasn't being entirely natural either. What complicated things is that he was kind of the same way with the men on the panel; it was like he was an exceptionally well-trained android in Press Junket Mode. He was polite because that was his programming, not because he had any innate organic acceptance of their humanity. Literally the only times I saw him react in what looked like an organic human way was when he clicked into a groove about something he was personally interested in anyway, or if he accidentally said a double-entendre.
And I think that helped make the penny drop for me. The other men who were being described as "not liking women" weren't really evil or misogynist to them - but you kind of had a sense that they largely saw women as a means to an end. (What made me spot things in Cruise was that he seemed to be going a step further and seeing people in general as a sort of means to an end.) I'm also pretty sure there are women who largely see men as a means to an end as well, frankly.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:11 AM on September 7 [23 favorites]
It isn't quite this simple.
The mention of Tom Cruise is actually a good way to explain why. Because I was initially going to disagree with that - I've seen plenty of interviews with Tom Cruise where he was part of a junket alongside women who were co-stars, and he seemed perfectly fine. He wasn't rude, he wasn't talking over his co-stars, he wasn't dismissive; he was polite and charming and seemed just fine. Many of these interviews where when he was on the Graham Norton Show, where he was one of a handful of people, and he didn't treat the men he was on the panel with any differently than he treated the women.
But then I thought a bit more about how he was acting. He wasn't being dismissive of the women - but he wasn't being entirely natural either. What complicated things is that he was kind of the same way with the men on the panel; it was like he was an exceptionally well-trained android in Press Junket Mode. He was polite because that was his programming, not because he had any innate organic acceptance of their humanity. Literally the only times I saw him react in what looked like an organic human way was when he clicked into a groove about something he was personally interested in anyway, or if he accidentally said a double-entendre.
And I think that helped make the penny drop for me. The other men who were being described as "not liking women" weren't really evil or misogynist to them - but you kind of had a sense that they largely saw women as a means to an end. (What made me spot things in Cruise was that he seemed to be going a step further and seeing people in general as a sort of means to an end.) I'm also pretty sure there are women who largely see men as a means to an end as well, frankly.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:11 AM on September 7 [23 favorites]
It's palpable in the way Powell looks at all these women — he really, intently focuses on them, which is a surprisingly rare thing onscreen and in real life. But some of it’s tied to that same confidence that makes him look good in clothes: it’s a lot easier to not be an asshole when you’re not obsessed with performing dominance.
Interestingly, the same used to be said appreciatively of porn star James Deen. Then it turned he wasn't just performing dominance.
posted by chavenet at 9:17 AM on September 7 [9 favorites]
Interestingly, the same used to be said appreciatively of porn star James Deen. Then it turned he wasn't just performing dominance.
posted by chavenet at 9:17 AM on September 7 [9 favorites]
Hmm.
Given two people, one who meets with your boss every day, and one who will seemingly never work in your industry — would I treat them both with the same level of interest?
Setting aside the initial anxiety, I think, yeah, I absolutely would treat them with equal interest at first. It’s hard to construct any reason not to! But that line of thought helped me identify something.
One of the thing I took a way from various secret and/or rich society stories over time is that a lot of people are taught to focus their efforts on those who will benefit them – today or someday – and to disregard those who will not. And I think the author is correct here: a lot of men are only interested in people for their present or future advantage. It’s absolutely a thing that’s taught, and it’s absolutely as garbage an outcome as we see here.
Huh. I’m glad I read this article. My autistic variant has a lot of trouble connecting with people without a shared interest or a common need. I’ve always worried about asking too much of someone. But I suppose, at least, that in this respect I’ve succeeded at avoiding the worst outcome: only valuing people when they have value to me. What a life of tremendous wasted opportunities that must be for them.
posted by Callisto Prime at 9:37 AM on September 7 [16 favorites]
Given two people, one who meets with your boss every day, and one who will seemingly never work in your industry — would I treat them both with the same level of interest?
Setting aside the initial anxiety, I think, yeah, I absolutely would treat them with equal interest at first. It’s hard to construct any reason not to! But that line of thought helped me identify something.
One of the thing I took a way from various secret and/or rich society stories over time is that a lot of people are taught to focus their efforts on those who will benefit them – today or someday – and to disregard those who will not. And I think the author is correct here: a lot of men are only interested in people for their present or future advantage. It’s absolutely a thing that’s taught, and it’s absolutely as garbage an outcome as we see here.
Huh. I’m glad I read this article. My autistic variant has a lot of trouble connecting with people without a shared interest or a common need. I’ve always worried about asking too much of someone. But I suppose, at least, that in this respect I’ve succeeded at avoiding the worst outcome: only valuing people when they have value to me. What a life of tremendous wasted opportunities that must be for them.
posted by Callisto Prime at 9:37 AM on September 7 [16 favorites]
I mean, I like women a hell of a lot more than I like men. It’s just that I can’t stand people in general.
This is close to my experience. I often wonder how much of this is the fact that a of majority people seem to find the norms of casual human social interaction (small talk, etc) to be very natural, whereas I have always found them confusing, chaotic, and anxiety-inducing -- and grew up feeling made fun of for it and very withdrawn as a result. I wonder if it's always easy to tell the difference between "doesn't like women" and "doesn't really get social interaction" (in the non-neurotypical sense). Obviously I agree with what's said in the OP and don't intend to excuse misogynistic behavior or attitudes by saying this; the men described are clearly all very skilled at navigating social situations.
posted by demonic winged headgear at 9:39 AM on September 7 [2 favorites]
This is close to my experience. I often wonder how much of this is the fact that a of majority people seem to find the norms of casual human social interaction (small talk, etc) to be very natural, whereas I have always found them confusing, chaotic, and anxiety-inducing -- and grew up feeling made fun of for it and very withdrawn as a result. I wonder if it's always easy to tell the difference between "doesn't like women" and "doesn't really get social interaction" (in the non-neurotypical sense). Obviously I agree with what's said in the OP and don't intend to excuse misogynistic behavior or attitudes by saying this; the men described are clearly all very skilled at navigating social situations.
posted by demonic winged headgear at 9:39 AM on September 7 [2 favorites]
> What made me spot things in Cruise was that he seemed to be going a step further and seeing people in general as a sort of means to an end
I think he sees every wave and particle outside of his ego as means to an end. He knows how to act like an empathetic genuine human, but it's not a convincing performance
posted by goinWhereTheClimateSuitsMyClothes at 9:45 AM on September 7 [12 favorites]
I think he sees every wave and particle outside of his ego as means to an end. He knows how to act like an empathetic genuine human, but it's not a convincing performance
posted by goinWhereTheClimateSuitsMyClothes at 9:45 AM on September 7 [12 favorites]
I can't help but draw a line between this and the parasociality/Chappell Roan thing. The truth is, we don't know Tom Cruise. We know the performances Tom Cruise gives in movies, the performances he turns in on talk shows. I think it's a mistake to base judgments about who does and does not like women on that kind of information, or indeed judgments on much of anything. If you like the vibe that Glen Powell radiates, okay. If you're like, "This is a friendly vibe, a woman liker vibe!" then that's cool, too. But performers perform. We're responding to a performance.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:46 AM on September 7 [47 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:46 AM on September 7 [47 favorites]
I've always considered this "grew up with a cool big sister energy". As a young person I felt like it was always super obvious to me when a guy I knew had a woman in his life he really looked up to. Maybe in some cases it's an older cousin, or a close friend...but I think a lot of the time a guy like this just really thought the world of his big sis. For someone growing up as a boy, the whole world outside your home is there telling you women aren't really people in the same way you are. For so many boys, their only experience of female humans is as moms and teachers. Having a sister in the house might be the only chance you get.
And indeed, Glen Powell is a middle child with a sister on either side. Nailed it!
posted by potrzebie at 9:58 AM on September 7 [46 favorites]
And indeed, Glen Powell is a middle child with a sister on either side. Nailed it!
posted by potrzebie at 9:58 AM on September 7 [46 favorites]
I'm a 53 year old straight man. I get along so much better with women -- almost always. I would rather work with women. Of course, women are individuals and there's exceptions to everything! But I have known since I was probably 10 years old that I just prefer the company of women, and not because some percentage of them might be interested in me romantically/sexually. I just click better with women socially.
I consider myself straight and male. But in some ways, since I was a little kid, I have sometimes wished I could be a woman. I perceive that women support each other more (generally) and at least based on my perception, I feel like I miss out on casual, everyday emotional support. At the same time, I see and recognize the constant misogyny in the world and I perceive that it would be harder to be a woman in many ways.
I base all this on my own personal perceptions! I didn't grow up with a sister, but two brothers. I always wish I had had a sister, even from a very young age.
posted by SoberHighland at 10:24 AM on September 7 [30 favorites]
I consider myself straight and male. But in some ways, since I was a little kid, I have sometimes wished I could be a woman. I perceive that women support each other more (generally) and at least based on my perception, I feel like I miss out on casual, everyday emotional support. At the same time, I see and recognize the constant misogyny in the world and I perceive that it would be harder to be a woman in many ways.
I base all this on my own personal perceptions! I didn't grow up with a sister, but two brothers. I always wish I had had a sister, even from a very young age.
posted by SoberHighland at 10:24 AM on September 7 [30 favorites]
I think about the men who hate women but want to fuck them all the time. Hopefully this won’t be misread, but I don’t think of these men as straight. Even my (few!) sexual partners who I would cross the street to avoid after our break up are women who I respected and who I had a list of qualities that I admired at the time. They are all humans who intrigued and enhanced my life in some meaningful way even when my interest was superficially prurient
The way that I experience my sexuality as a straight man is qualitatively different than the men who hate women
Andrew Tate is maybe the most extreme archetype of this kind of man. Not an incel by the strict definition but has the brain of one. Hates women. Really only seems to be into women performatively. If his straightness is an act then how can he be called straight? Calling him queer would be an undeserving insult to people who have nothing to do with him but that asshole is not straight. He doesn’t like-like women. He’s some third thing. He’s misogynsexual
posted by Skwirl at 10:32 AM on September 7 [45 favorites]
The way that I experience my sexuality as a straight man is qualitatively different than the men who hate women
Andrew Tate is maybe the most extreme archetype of this kind of man. Not an incel by the strict definition but has the brain of one. Hates women. Really only seems to be into women performatively. If his straightness is an act then how can he be called straight? Calling him queer would be an undeserving insult to people who have nothing to do with him but that asshole is not straight. He doesn’t like-like women. He’s some third thing. He’s misogynsexual
posted by Skwirl at 10:32 AM on September 7 [45 favorites]
“To say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say that they engage in sex (fucking exclusively with the other sex, i.e., women). All or almost all of that which pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively for other men. The people whom they admire, respect, adore, revere, honor, whom they imitate, idolize, and form profound attachments to, whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, and whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor, reverence and love they desire… those are, overwhelmingly, other men. In their relations with women, what passes for respect is kindness, generosity or paternalism; what passes for honor is removal to the pedestal. From women they want devotion, service and sex.”-Marilyn Frye, The Politics of Reality
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:45 AM on September 7 [81 favorites]
Pedro Pascal is another man who appears to like women. He grew up with sisters so his Instagram is mostly pics of him and his sisters being affectionate. His best friend is a woman (Sarah Paulson). And his female costars speak warmly of him. He does radiate a sort of sweet self-deprecating vibe that is consistent with the male friends I've had and have in my life.
posted by Kitteh at 10:52 AM on September 7 [17 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 10:52 AM on September 7 [17 favorites]
Galvanic: "Don’t most men like women?"
Yes.
Counterpoint - no.
posted by tzikeh at 11:08 AM on September 7 [28 favorites]
Yes.
Counterpoint - no.
posted by tzikeh at 11:08 AM on September 7 [28 favorites]
Pedro Pascal is another man who appears to like women.
Pedro Pascal just plain appears to like people. David Tennant is another person who's always struck me as liking women, but that's more of a subset of the dude just liking people.
....that may be something to think about there.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:13 AM on September 7 [30 favorites]
Pedro Pascal just plain appears to like people. David Tennant is another person who's always struck me as liking women, but that's more of a subset of the dude just liking people.
....that may be something to think about there.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:13 AM on September 7 [30 favorites]
It's almost like men who mentally place women in the category of "people" rather than "thing to avoid being like" are more likely to treat them o.k. Which was the point of at least one of the articles.
Like, as a guy in America who's spent any time around a variety of other guys can this is describing something fundamentally broken about American Male culture. It only takes like 30 seconds of reflection to realize that "hey, that guy doesn't actually seem to want to spend time with his wife, that's weird", or "wow, that co-worker always complains about the woman whose his direct boss, even though the policies he hates comes from the guy dude that's her boss, that's seems messed up".
posted by Gygesringtone at 11:41 AM on September 7 [34 favorites]
Like, as a guy in America who's spent any time around a variety of other guys can this is describing something fundamentally broken about American Male culture. It only takes like 30 seconds of reflection to realize that "hey, that guy doesn't actually seem to want to spend time with his wife, that's weird", or "wow, that co-worker always complains about the woman whose his direct boss, even though the policies he hates comes from the guy dude that's her boss, that's seems messed up".
posted by Gygesringtone at 11:41 AM on September 7 [34 favorites]
Andrew Tate is maybe the most extreme archetype of this kind of man. Not an incel by the strict definition but has the brain of one. Hates women. Really only seems to be into women performatively.
I'm not sure "performatively" is the right word - "transactionally" is probably better. Andrew Tate isn't into women, he's into orgasms. And his sexual preference is that these orgasms come through sex with women; he is not attracted to men, so that's not an option for an outlet, so women it is.
What you're seeing from him when it comes to negotiating a sexual encounter with women isn't a performance - it's a transaction, it's the ritual that he has been given to understand is required in order to receive orgasms. Like, if you want a bottle of beer from the corner store, you have to go through a ritual where you give the shopkeeper a specific quantity of pieces of green paper and the shopkeeper gives you that bottle of beer. This is the same thing - if you want an orgasm from a women, you have to go through a ritual where you do XYZ and then the woman will give you the orgasm.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:44 AM on September 7 [18 favorites]
I'm not sure "performatively" is the right word - "transactionally" is probably better. Andrew Tate isn't into women, he's into orgasms. And his sexual preference is that these orgasms come through sex with women; he is not attracted to men, so that's not an option for an outlet, so women it is.
What you're seeing from him when it comes to negotiating a sexual encounter with women isn't a performance - it's a transaction, it's the ritual that he has been given to understand is required in order to receive orgasms. Like, if you want a bottle of beer from the corner store, you have to go through a ritual where you give the shopkeeper a specific quantity of pieces of green paper and the shopkeeper gives you that bottle of beer. This is the same thing - if you want an orgasm from a women, you have to go through a ritual where you do XYZ and then the woman will give you the orgasm.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:44 AM on September 7 [18 favorites]
In my experience most men don’t like women. And in the culture I grew up in, even if a man likes women he is expect to perform like he does not when in men only spaces.
I like people, but have the type of autism that makes it nonobvious how to approach people and build relationships. I grew up surrounded by women, from ages 12 to 19 I was the only boy, my mother ran a boarding house for female students. For me the default was liking women.
But out in the real world after I left home, damn. The cultural expectation was to pretend to like women in order to get sex, then to never admit to liking or respecting the women when talking to other men.
It was not until my late 20s that I moved to a place where I met all kinds of people with all kinds of relationships. At one point I heard a conversation that left me feeling icky about a bunch of my colleagues.
I talked to my wife (I like her a lot), and figured out (using a spreadsheet, yay weird brain) that we had a large enough social circle that we could cut off people who did not respect their partners or whole classes of people. There when like 75% of my straight friends.
I don’t have many friends, but I really enjoy hanging out with the ones I have. Queer, straight, single or partnered, old and young. It is a joy knowing that when they introduce a partner they will be interesting people. Refreshing to know that I will not have to walk on engshells when talking about relationships (with the other friends, it was a rule to never talk money (the wife should never know how much one makes), extracurricular activities (assume that everyone lied to their wives about where you went Friday night) and specially any exes).
So yeah, I know many men who don’t like women and make women the center of their lives.
posted by Dr. Curare at 11:54 AM on September 7 [44 favorites]
I like people, but have the type of autism that makes it nonobvious how to approach people and build relationships. I grew up surrounded by women, from ages 12 to 19 I was the only boy, my mother ran a boarding house for female students. For me the default was liking women.
But out in the real world after I left home, damn. The cultural expectation was to pretend to like women in order to get sex, then to never admit to liking or respecting the women when talking to other men.
It was not until my late 20s that I moved to a place where I met all kinds of people with all kinds of relationships. At one point I heard a conversation that left me feeling icky about a bunch of my colleagues.
I talked to my wife (I like her a lot), and figured out (using a spreadsheet, yay weird brain) that we had a large enough social circle that we could cut off people who did not respect their partners or whole classes of people. There when like 75% of my straight friends.
I don’t have many friends, but I really enjoy hanging out with the ones I have. Queer, straight, single or partnered, old and young. It is a joy knowing that when they introduce a partner they will be interesting people. Refreshing to know that I will not have to walk on engshells when talking about relationships (with the other friends, it was a rule to never talk money (the wife should never know how much one makes), extracurricular activities (assume that everyone lied to their wives about where you went Friday night) and specially any exes).
So yeah, I know many men who don’t like women and make women the center of their lives.
posted by Dr. Curare at 11:54 AM on September 7 [44 favorites]
For me, the question about men and how they see women is simple: Do the men see women (including specific women) as having utility, or value?
For some men, women largely have utility: They bear children, they maintain the household, they manage the portion of one's life related to sustaining familial and community ties, and so forth. Outside of the home, they can be useful to men in business by attracting customers and clients one might not otherwise get, or doing the sort of work one doesn't want to do or that is thrust upon one by regulations (HR is a big one here), and for giving the appearance of corporate interest in equality. Even in the higher executive positions, they might have utility: Taking over a troubled firm where things are going to get worse before they can get better, and absorbing blame for consequences set in motion long before they arrived in the Big Chair, but for which they are now responsible. And of course, beyond all that, the utility of being a sexual object. Women are useful for the things they can do, and that they can do for men.
For some men, women largely have value, for who they are as people. They are understood to have their own interests, passions, desires and goals, and that all of these things are separate from what the man wants, and that these things are inherently important. The men may or may not have access to the benefit of these things, but if they do it is with the consent of and engagement with the women, on mutually beneficial terms. The value of having a woman as a friend, or spouse, or co-worker or business associate is based on the synergy of what can be done together in partnership rather than in having a dynamic where the majority of the power is invested in the man, and the majority of the labor (across several meanings of the word) is invested in the woman.
None of this has to be either/or (relationships are complicated), and it's not just women and men for whom the "utility vs value" question; it works whenever one party would prefer to see the other more as a tool and less as a fully invested, independently acting being. Nevertheless, with women and men, it is (in my opinion) at the heart of why so many men are just so fucking bad at being decent to women. They want to take advantage of their utility without having to acknowledge their value.
posted by jscalzi at 11:55 AM on September 7 [59 favorites]
For some men, women largely have utility: They bear children, they maintain the household, they manage the portion of one's life related to sustaining familial and community ties, and so forth. Outside of the home, they can be useful to men in business by attracting customers and clients one might not otherwise get, or doing the sort of work one doesn't want to do or that is thrust upon one by regulations (HR is a big one here), and for giving the appearance of corporate interest in equality. Even in the higher executive positions, they might have utility: Taking over a troubled firm where things are going to get worse before they can get better, and absorbing blame for consequences set in motion long before they arrived in the Big Chair, but for which they are now responsible. And of course, beyond all that, the utility of being a sexual object. Women are useful for the things they can do, and that they can do for men.
For some men, women largely have value, for who they are as people. They are understood to have their own interests, passions, desires and goals, and that all of these things are separate from what the man wants, and that these things are inherently important. The men may or may not have access to the benefit of these things, but if they do it is with the consent of and engagement with the women, on mutually beneficial terms. The value of having a woman as a friend, or spouse, or co-worker or business associate is based on the synergy of what can be done together in partnership rather than in having a dynamic where the majority of the power is invested in the man, and the majority of the labor (across several meanings of the word) is invested in the woman.
None of this has to be either/or (relationships are complicated), and it's not just women and men for whom the "utility vs value" question; it works whenever one party would prefer to see the other more as a tool and less as a fully invested, independently acting being. Nevertheless, with women and men, it is (in my opinion) at the heart of why so many men are just so fucking bad at being decent to women. They want to take advantage of their utility without having to acknowledge their value.
posted by jscalzi at 11:55 AM on September 7 [59 favorites]
Yuck = Andrew Tate + orgasms. Like, isn’t Andrew Tate just a wannabe Kraznys mo Nakloz?
posted by house-goblin at 12:22 PM on September 7
posted by house-goblin at 12:22 PM on September 7
I mean, I like women a hell of a lot more than I like men. It’s just that I can’t stand people in general.
overheard at a reasonably polite gathering a few years back. "You've got me wrong as usual. I'm not a misogynist, I'm a misanthrope."
"Then why are you even here?"
"Free food and drinks."
posted by philip-random at 12:52 PM on September 7 [18 favorites]
overheard at a reasonably polite gathering a few years back. "You've got me wrong as usual. I'm not a misogynist, I'm a misanthrope."
"Then why are you even here?"
"Free food and drinks."
posted by philip-random at 12:52 PM on September 7 [18 favorites]
One of my screening questions for male friends for years has been "Do they like women?" Most men fail at this.
This is not to say they are generally all abusers or obert misogynists. But they don't enjoy women. They don't respect them. They don't make room for them. They wait for them to finish talking so they can go back to whatever they would rather be doing. They work around them. They ignore them where they can because it is easier.
No, most men do not like women.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:03 PM on September 7 [29 favorites]
This is not to say they are generally all abusers or obert misogynists. But they don't enjoy women. They don't respect them. They don't make room for them. They wait for them to finish talking so they can go back to whatever they would rather be doing. They work around them. They ignore them where they can because it is easier.
No, most men do not like women.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:03 PM on September 7 [29 favorites]
I know some men who identify as feminists -- as in, yeah, they believe in equal rights, abortion access, etc. -- and recognize women as a group have humanity and the right to exist.
But these men actually hate women on a personal level. It's such a weird feeling to discover this about certain men and I don't know how they reconcile this in themselves (except I don't think they fully realize it).
I am suspicious of straight men who don't have platonic women as friends or gay men as friends. That just tells me they're busy "othering" people who aren't like them.
I am lucky I know plenty of men who genuinely like women but that's because they like people and find them interesting regardless of who they are.
posted by edencosmic at 1:23 PM on September 7 [15 favorites]
But these men actually hate women on a personal level. It's such a weird feeling to discover this about certain men and I don't know how they reconcile this in themselves (except I don't think they fully realize it).
I am suspicious of straight men who don't have platonic women as friends or gay men as friends. That just tells me they're busy "othering" people who aren't like them.
I am lucky I know plenty of men who genuinely like women but that's because they like people and find them interesting regardless of who they are.
posted by edencosmic at 1:23 PM on September 7 [15 favorites]
I remember grappling with masculinity in college, and asking a friend why he only seemed interested in dating women younger than him. At some point, I realized that he needed his partner to be less to feel good about himself. This deeply shocked me, and I kind of see it everywhere now.
Personally, I prefer awesome. In all genders, all relationships, friendship to life partner. I have been extraordinarily lucky to have been chosen by some phenomenally awesome partners, and they have never made me feel less – their attention (which I still cannot quite fathom) has always made me feel like so much more.
But here's the secret: deep down, everyone is awesome. Sometimes they just don't know it yet.
posted by 1024 at 1:31 PM on September 7 [22 favorites]
Personally, I prefer awesome. In all genders, all relationships, friendship to life partner. I have been extraordinarily lucky to have been chosen by some phenomenally awesome partners, and they have never made me feel less – their attention (which I still cannot quite fathom) has always made me feel like so much more.
But here's the secret: deep down, everyone is awesome. Sometimes they just don't know it yet.
posted by 1024 at 1:31 PM on September 7 [22 favorites]
Even in the higher executive positions, they might have utility: Taking over a troubled firm where things are going to get worse before they can get better, and absorbing blame for consequences set in motion long before they arrived in the Big Chair, but for which they are now responsible.
I was introduced to this concept as the glass cliff, while studying business and game theory in London. It is shocking how many other forms of reputational crumple zones have been intentionally manufactured (hello subcontracting!), this is sociopathic. I absolutely adore the differentiation you made between "utility" and "value," thank you for this valuable lens.
posted by 1024 at 1:36 PM on September 7 [15 favorites]
I was introduced to this concept as the glass cliff, while studying business and game theory in London. It is shocking how many other forms of reputational crumple zones have been intentionally manufactured (hello subcontracting!), this is sociopathic. I absolutely adore the differentiation you made between "utility" and "value," thank you for this valuable lens.
posted by 1024 at 1:36 PM on September 7 [15 favorites]
As a cis dude I can confirm that most men don't seem to like women. I've never understood it, but yeah, value vs utility. Most men I know IRL definitely see women in terms of utility.
It's fairly rare for me to hear a man actually using sexist language or outright saying that they don't see women as equals, or people. But they definitely don't talk about women as if they liked them as people most of the time. I like my cat more than a lot of men seem to like women.
Which may be part of why most of my friends are women and I don't actually like most men very much?
posted by sotonohito at 1:37 PM on September 7 [12 favorites]
It's fairly rare for me to hear a man actually using sexist language or outright saying that they don't see women as equals, or people. But they definitely don't talk about women as if they liked them as people most of the time. I like my cat more than a lot of men seem to like women.
Which may be part of why most of my friends are women and I don't actually like most men very much?
posted by sotonohito at 1:37 PM on September 7 [12 favorites]
bell hooks says love is a verb.
Is "like" a verb too? Because if so, liking women is simply a matter of doing good for women.
You don't have to be allistic to do this! And as a society we should stop using social ease or charisma as a fundamental marker of merit.
posted by splitpeasoup at 1:45 PM on September 7 [6 favorites]
Is "like" a verb too? Because if so, liking women is simply a matter of doing good for women.
You don't have to be allistic to do this! And as a society we should stop using social ease or charisma as a fundamental marker of merit.
posted by splitpeasoup at 1:45 PM on September 7 [6 favorites]
OMG running off to watch Anyone But You.
posted by bluesky43 at 1:45 PM on September 7 [2 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 1:45 PM on September 7 [2 favorites]
I've felt this in the past from some men but tended to assume they just didn't like *me* unless I saw them acting that way to another woman. But...yeah, maybe they just disliked my category, not me personally.
I will say, I see it less in younger men, at least the ones I run into.
posted by emjaybee at 1:46 PM on September 7 [4 favorites]
I will say, I see it less in younger men, at least the ones I run into.
posted by emjaybee at 1:46 PM on September 7 [4 favorites]
i don't like dominance behavior & i don't respect anyone who thinks it is good or important. i have always preferred the company of women because, even when their job or role requires them to use such behavior, almost always they would rather not have.
posted by graywyvern at 2:24 PM on September 7 [6 favorites]
posted by graywyvern at 2:24 PM on September 7 [6 favorites]
I just was scrolling through YT and there was a Stern interview with Paltrow where she was talking about getting propositioned by Harvey Weinstein. She was going out with Brad Pitt at the time and she said when she told him about it he put Weinstein up against the fucking wall. She never got harassed by Harvey again. So I'm figuring Pitt is kinda OK.
posted by Ber at 2:25 PM on September 7 [2 favorites]
posted by Ber at 2:25 PM on September 7 [2 favorites]
I (straight middle-aged guy) end up at a lot of parties because my wife likes to go. I'd prefer to stay home and listen to baseball on the radio, but then I get called a curmudgeon. I don't dislike anyone at these parties. We're talking urban hipster mostly white entirely blue voters mostly straight but not exclusionary or anything, just the kind of thing where people hang out with people they have things in common with. They're not terrible, and now that everyone is ~50, the average drinks per person is waaay down, so the parties are far more tolerable than they used to be when people were wasted.
Without exception, I end up in the kitchen talking to the women. They're far more interesting than the men, who are decent people but to me crashingly dull because I have no opinions on craft beer or what they've read on some indie hipster music site. They're not misogynists, they don't talk about golf or college football, none of them would vote for Golden Toilet... they're just not very interesting to me. Yet the women are way more three-dimensional, we have great talks. It used to bug my wife: "oh look, here's my husband, surrounded by women", until she finally figured out that there wasn't a desire component to this: most of them are also married, and there's no way I'm going to get involved with any of the single ones. They're just more interesting, on the whole. Now she gets it, and doesn't care.
I am no movie star. I only say this because now I want to go to a party and really start paying attention to the guys. Most of them have what seem like pretty egalitarian relationships with their wives, but now I want to look more carefully and see how many of them actually like women. I have to be subtle about it, though, because if I act too enthusiastic about going, my wife's gonna think something's up.
EDIT: the women are not in the kitchen because they're cooking for the men. That's just how it seems to wind up, mostly because the men are more likely to smoke weed and so they're outside.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 2:26 PM on September 7 [13 favorites]
Without exception, I end up in the kitchen talking to the women. They're far more interesting than the men, who are decent people but to me crashingly dull because I have no opinions on craft beer or what they've read on some indie hipster music site. They're not misogynists, they don't talk about golf or college football, none of them would vote for Golden Toilet... they're just not very interesting to me. Yet the women are way more three-dimensional, we have great talks. It used to bug my wife: "oh look, here's my husband, surrounded by women", until she finally figured out that there wasn't a desire component to this: most of them are also married, and there's no way I'm going to get involved with any of the single ones. They're just more interesting, on the whole. Now she gets it, and doesn't care.
I am no movie star. I only say this because now I want to go to a party and really start paying attention to the guys. Most of them have what seem like pretty egalitarian relationships with their wives, but now I want to look more carefully and see how many of them actually like women. I have to be subtle about it, though, because if I act too enthusiastic about going, my wife's gonna think something's up.
EDIT: the women are not in the kitchen because they're cooking for the men. That's just how it seems to wind up, mostly because the men are more likely to smoke weed and so they're outside.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 2:26 PM on September 7 [13 favorites]
She was going out with Brad Pitt at the time and she said when she told him about it he put Weinstein up against the fucking wall. She never got harassed by Harvey again. So I'm figuring Pitt is kinda OK.
Or is this an early example of his willingness to use violence to exert dominance over other men and ownership of "his" woman? While doing nothing to prevent Weinstein from moving on to other victims?
posted by doift at 2:54 PM on September 7 [40 favorites]
Or is this an early example of his willingness to use violence to exert dominance over other men and ownership of "his" woman? While doing nothing to prevent Weinstein from moving on to other victims?
posted by doift at 2:54 PM on September 7 [40 favorites]
Brad Pitt has done and said some okay things. But the stories of his marriage to Angelina Jolie and how he supposedly treated/acted in front of their kids will kill off any interest you have in him as a person right quick. Not a monster exactly, but not a good person at all.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:12 PM on September 7 [13 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:12 PM on September 7 [13 favorites]
i don't like dominance behavior & i don't respect anyone who thinks it is good or important. i have always preferred the company of women because, even when their job or role requires them to use such behavior, almost always they would rather not have.
Women are often trained to make you feel like that is the case, especially if you are a man, but, uh, as a woman who does not always have power in situations, I can assure you this is not the case.
Anyways, yes women can tell if men actually like us. Often one will engage with men who don't, because it is useful or required, but we definitely know.
posted by dame at 3:19 PM on September 7 [5 favorites]
Women are often trained to make you feel like that is the case, especially if you are a man, but, uh, as a woman who does not always have power in situations, I can assure you this is not the case.
Anyways, yes women can tell if men actually like us. Often one will engage with men who don't, because it is useful or required, but we definitely know.
posted by dame at 3:19 PM on September 7 [5 favorites]
Interestingly, the same used to be said appreciatively of porn star James Deen.
I came here just to say this. And also that, at 65, I don't know how much longer I can keep reading articles which reinvent second- (or third, or first) wave feminist ideas. I've read this article before, I swear, perhaps not in the 70s but certainly in the 80s. No disrespect to the writer, I just wish that the day when women got to be human beings among other human beings might get incrementally closer rather than farther every day. (I've been reading about Gisèle Pélicot and I'm not having a Good Day.)
posted by jokeefe at 3:20 PM on September 7 [22 favorites]
I came here just to say this. And also that, at 65, I don't know how much longer I can keep reading articles which reinvent second- (or third, or first) wave feminist ideas. I've read this article before, I swear, perhaps not in the 70s but certainly in the 80s. No disrespect to the writer, I just wish that the day when women got to be human beings among other human beings might get incrementally closer rather than farther every day. (I've been reading about Gisèle Pélicot and I'm not having a Good Day.)
posted by jokeefe at 3:20 PM on September 7 [22 favorites]
Glen Powell! That's who the initial article is about. Funny thing, the first I heard about him was a question on Reddit (yes, I do go there, mea cupla) a day or two ago, in which a man was enjoying a newly, um, lively sex life with his wife, and it turned out his wife had become very much interested in Glen Powell, and he was receiving the benefit of it. He was a bit conflicted, but was counselled to just go with the flow, so to speak. I now know about the newest movie star on the block and feel slightly less culturally isolated.
posted by jokeefe at 3:51 PM on September 7 [4 favorites]
posted by jokeefe at 3:51 PM on September 7 [4 favorites]
I don't think it's fair to compare Glenn Powell to actors with 40 years of time on him - give him time to become good or bad on the same scale.
About the premise - not sure about that, and I think the discussion kind of dead-ends, because what makes a 'man that likes women' is extremely variable, as referenced in this thread. Also, it takes a lifetime of actions to be considered 'good', but just a few big ones to be considered 'bad', also as referenced in this thread, and everyone is (generally) judging others with their own intentions in mind.
posted by The_Vegetables at 4:16 PM on September 7
About the premise - not sure about that, and I think the discussion kind of dead-ends, because what makes a 'man that likes women' is extremely variable, as referenced in this thread. Also, it takes a lifetime of actions to be considered 'good', but just a few big ones to be considered 'bad', also as referenced in this thread, and everyone is (generally) judging others with their own intentions in mind.
posted by The_Vegetables at 4:16 PM on September 7
Incels are maybe the most extreme example of heterosexual men who don't like women
I strongly doubt that. Every minute of every day there is a sexual assault against a woman in the United States. Incels are maladjusted, but they are not notorious rapists.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:20 PM on September 7 [5 favorites]
I strongly doubt that. Every minute of every day there is a sexual assault against a woman in the United States. Incels are maladjusted, but they are not notorious rapists.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:20 PM on September 7 [5 favorites]
jokeefe: And also that, at 65, I don't know how much longer I can keep reading articles which reinvent second- (or third, or first) wave feminist ideas. I've read this article before, I swear, perhaps not in the 70s but certainly in the 80s.
On the other hand, wannabe fascists have been pumping out retreads of articles from the 1930s at an alarming rate, so having some '70s feminist retread articles is probably a good thing (though it'd be even better if they weren't necessary).
posted by clawsoon at 4:52 PM on September 7 [20 favorites]
On the other hand, wannabe fascists have been pumping out retreads of articles from the 1930s at an alarming rate, so having some '70s feminist retread articles is probably a good thing (though it'd be even better if they weren't necessary).
posted by clawsoon at 4:52 PM on September 7 [20 favorites]
Ber: I just was scrolling through YT and there was a Stern interview with Paltrow where she was talking about getting propositioned by Harvey Weinstein. She was going out with Brad Pitt at the time and she said when she told him about it he put Weinstein up against the fucking wall. She never got harassed by Harvey again. So I'm figuring Pitt is kinda OK.
The result of Brad Pitt's actions (Weinstein left Paltrow alone) was probably not due to the cause of Brad Pitt's actions (Most generous interpretation is "defending her honor;" least generous and more likely is Brad Pitt saw Paltrow as "his" and Weinstein had tried to take his stuff).
posted by tzikeh at 5:01 PM on September 7 [7 favorites]
The result of Brad Pitt's actions (Weinstein left Paltrow alone) was probably not due to the cause of Brad Pitt's actions (Most generous interpretation is "defending her honor;" least generous and more likely is Brad Pitt saw Paltrow as "his" and Weinstein had tried to take his stuff).
posted by tzikeh at 5:01 PM on September 7 [7 favorites]
Aside to the main point about most men’s appreciation for women I just don’t see how you can judge this on Powell’s performances. Any more than you could judge Bela Lugosi’s actual real life desire to drink blood. It’s performance.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 5:35 PM on September 7 [5 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 5:35 PM on September 7 [5 favorites]
There's a certain amount of 'my gender is made up of people, that other gender is made up of relationship objects' that goes with being taught a strict gender binary alongside mandatory heterosexuality. As a teen in the 1980's I repeatedly got shunted into a friendzone-like space[1] because I had brothers and my parents were weirdo hippies so I talked to boys like they were people. This got me categorized as 'one of the boys' by the boys I befriended because I'd put us on a person-to-person dynamic. It also started some very odd rumors on the girl side that I was secretly dating half a dozen boys and tricking each into thinking he was the only one, because dating was the only form some people could conceive boy-girl interactions might fit into.
Because maleness is the default in so many ways, men have a harder time eventually figuring out that maleness is not a prerequisite for personhood. Some women never do, lots of men never do.
[1] It's not that I wanted to date any of the boys I got along with, but it was a little insulting to listen to mopes about 'why can't I meet any girls' as if I were not standing right there.
posted by Karmakaze at 5:50 PM on September 7 [23 favorites]
Because maleness is the default in so many ways, men have a harder time eventually figuring out that maleness is not a prerequisite for personhood. Some women never do, lots of men never do.
[1] It's not that I wanted to date any of the boys I got along with, but it was a little insulting to listen to mopes about 'why can't I meet any girls' as if I were not standing right there.
posted by Karmakaze at 5:50 PM on September 7 [23 favorites]
Fiasco da Gama: I just don’t see how you can judge this on Powell’s performances.
That's not what she's judging him by. From the first link:
posted by tzikeh at 6:09 PM on September 7 [5 favorites]
That's not what she's judging him by. From the first link:
But this week, I carved out an evening for Hit Man. And then I went and saw Twisters in the theater. And then spent a perfect, delicious evening watching Anyone But You. I watched the Top Gun: Mavericks supercut of just Hangman (his character) so many times I gave in and rented the movie. I’ve read dozens of interviews and watched dozens more TikToks.You can do a decent assessment of the basics and certainly can get good/bad vibes when you read and watch a lot of interviews of someone. Same way she probably did for all of the other movie stars she mentions (Cruise, Teller, Clooney, etc.).
posted by tzikeh at 6:09 PM on September 7 [5 favorites]
I'm sure this says a lot about choices I made when I was younger, but it threw me off when my husband--from the time we started seeing each other to the wedding--actually treated me like a whole person. He cared what I thought! He genuinely wanted to know my opinions and my passions! What sorcery was this??
I really didn't know what to do with that for the longest time because I had never had a romantic partner who cared like that. It is amazing when you find someone like that.
posted by Kitteh at 6:14 PM on September 7 [12 favorites]
I really didn't know what to do with that for the longest time because I had never had a romantic partner who cared like that. It is amazing when you find someone like that.
posted by Kitteh at 6:14 PM on September 7 [12 favorites]
I guess things are changing for the better but, as a girl in the 70s, I heard men and boys say out loud that women and girls were inferior and worthy of contempt. I knew what misogyny was before I knew there was a word for it. The things my father said to me, the shows on TV, the harassment of the boys at school...
The dislike of women that I witness in person now is more subtle (though the more overt stuff is all over the internet, of course). Men talking disparagingly about how their wives and daughters watched gymnastics during the Olympics, men walking right past me at work to ask a male co-worker a question that I could have easily answered, men leaving a group conversation when two women start talking to each other, the way I don't even exist to many men now that I'm pretty anymore...
I'm always pleasantly surprised when I encounter a man who sees women as people. They are usually considerably younger than me.
posted by LindsayIrene at 6:53 PM on September 7 [11 favorites]
The dislike of women that I witness in person now is more subtle (though the more overt stuff is all over the internet, of course). Men talking disparagingly about how their wives and daughters watched gymnastics during the Olympics, men walking right past me at work to ask a male co-worker a question that I could have easily answered, men leaving a group conversation when two women start talking to each other, the way I don't even exist to many men now that I'm pretty anymore...
I'm always pleasantly surprised when I encounter a man who sees women as people. They are usually considerably younger than me.
posted by LindsayIrene at 6:53 PM on September 7 [11 favorites]
Honestly, I don't think it's enough as a man to like women.
You have to hate misogyny. It has to repulse you, whether you see it in others or when you notice it in yourself.
posted by AlSweigart at 6:55 PM on September 7 [21 favorites]
You have to hate misogyny. It has to repulse you, whether you see it in others or when you notice it in yourself.
posted by AlSweigart at 6:55 PM on September 7 [21 favorites]
Kitteh: He cared what I thought! He genuinely wanted to know my opinions and my passions! What sorcery was this??
God, the bar is on the fucking ground, isn't it. And it hasn't moved in my lifetime.
posted by tzikeh at 7:10 PM on September 7 [18 favorites]
God, the bar is on the fucking ground, isn't it. And it hasn't moved in my lifetime.
posted by tzikeh at 7:10 PM on September 7 [18 favorites]
I wonder if it's always easy to tell the difference between "doesn't like women" and "doesn't really get social interaction" (in the non-neurotypical sense).
I am female, nominally neurotypical, and have many non-neurotypical friends. Many of them are extremely socially awkward. I can tell.
posted by bq at 7:19 PM on September 7 [23 favorites]
I am female, nominally neurotypical, and have many non-neurotypical friends. Many of them are extremely socially awkward. I can tell.
posted by bq at 7:19 PM on September 7 [23 favorites]
I find the opposite even harder to parse out - do women like men? Honestly, men by and large are kind of stinky, messy, loud, unsophisticated, glorify violence (movies especially) and have generally boring interests like sports or video games.
Also agree that many of my peers didn't like women, they just generally awkwardly desired them.
I think I do fall into the category of "liking girls" but really how much of that is the unexplained sensation growing up feeling I should have been a girl, or that my general interests were more feminine (I liked writing, heck, even the genre of writing was romance and love stories, photography, long walks and deep conversation). And then, not so strangely, when girls liked me back, some wanted a relationship of some kind, which I was happy to oblige, only to realise years later I didn't really desire girls in that way... at least not yet, I was a very late bloomer.
Is this analogous to the girl that hangs "with the boys" and mostly has guy friends because she likes sports and video games - similar interests and brain chemistry?
When the author talks about Glen Powell's intense focus I really do get that. In my experience, it's simply about paying attention, that's all. The subtle shift in breathing that lets you know which parts of the movie you're watching is having an emotional impact on her and which parts are not - because you are paying attention to not just the movie, but her reaction to it at the same time. When you're having dinner with her or going out with her, you're aware of where her eyes are focusing on, so you know what's going on in her mind. Does the decor remind her of home? Is she expecting an important phone call? You can see the subtle shifts in her body language and eye focus that let you know the exact moment she's done with the party or gathering and would like to head home alone, or go somewhere less noisy and extend her time spent with you. Picking up on those non verbal cues and then acting on them is so powerful, because its lets the other person know that they matter intensely. I want to know why you thought those parts of the movie were so relatable. I want to know what you think of the decor or why this call matters so much to you. But you will never know to ask those things unless you were paying attention in the first place, and that's not something you can fake. Not easily, anyway.
I was most in my comfort zone developing relationships with women who were not actively looking for a partner, either because they were ok being single for that specific period of time or already had a partner. Which led to raising the ire of more than a few jealous boyfriends. Spending time developing a relationship with a girl who was actively looking for a partner felt wrong - they should be investing their time somewhere else, you know? This is probably the polar opposite of the whole "friend-zone" thing - I remember thinking, this is great, why wouldn't I want more girl friends?
I started out in college sharing a one bedroom unit with a lesbian girl (I took the living room). Then a two bedroom unit with the girlfriend of someone I worked with at college (I forget why she lived with me instead of him?) and then when they broke up, and I moved to a different 2 bedroom unit, she followed me and we got another girl who got evicted from her place so now I lived in this unit with these two girls. So on and so forth for the next 10 years. The strangest story I had was meeting a girl while rock climbing, she had no belayer. I offered to have my group belay for her, I snapped her picture while she was on the wall as an excuse to get her contact details. Asked her out for a lunch, she said she had just arrived in the country and was living with relatives temporarily, I asked if she wanted to live with me and she said yes. We made a handshake rental agreement over lunch, there was a language barrier since she didn't speak much English. I asked how long she wanted to live with me (rental lease term, right?) and she said "forever".
... which is not to say I didn't make mistakes, or was a perfect, or even good person. I messed up, learned from it, messed other things up. There was once we were drinking and a girl and I got into a disagreement and yelled at each other then felt so bad we cried and hugged it out afterwards. Many things can be forgiven, but not if you never liked girls to begin with I guess...
posted by xdvesper at 8:03 PM on September 7 [4 favorites]
Also agree that many of my peers didn't like women, they just generally awkwardly desired them.
I think I do fall into the category of "liking girls" but really how much of that is the unexplained sensation growing up feeling I should have been a girl, or that my general interests were more feminine (I liked writing, heck, even the genre of writing was romance and love stories, photography, long walks and deep conversation). And then, not so strangely, when girls liked me back, some wanted a relationship of some kind, which I was happy to oblige, only to realise years later I didn't really desire girls in that way... at least not yet, I was a very late bloomer.
Is this analogous to the girl that hangs "with the boys" and mostly has guy friends because she likes sports and video games - similar interests and brain chemistry?
When the author talks about Glen Powell's intense focus I really do get that. In my experience, it's simply about paying attention, that's all. The subtle shift in breathing that lets you know which parts of the movie you're watching is having an emotional impact on her and which parts are not - because you are paying attention to not just the movie, but her reaction to it at the same time. When you're having dinner with her or going out with her, you're aware of where her eyes are focusing on, so you know what's going on in her mind. Does the decor remind her of home? Is she expecting an important phone call? You can see the subtle shifts in her body language and eye focus that let you know the exact moment she's done with the party or gathering and would like to head home alone, or go somewhere less noisy and extend her time spent with you. Picking up on those non verbal cues and then acting on them is so powerful, because its lets the other person know that they matter intensely. I want to know why you thought those parts of the movie were so relatable. I want to know what you think of the decor or why this call matters so much to you. But you will never know to ask those things unless you were paying attention in the first place, and that's not something you can fake. Not easily, anyway.
I was most in my comfort zone developing relationships with women who were not actively looking for a partner, either because they were ok being single for that specific period of time or already had a partner. Which led to raising the ire of more than a few jealous boyfriends. Spending time developing a relationship with a girl who was actively looking for a partner felt wrong - they should be investing their time somewhere else, you know? This is probably the polar opposite of the whole "friend-zone" thing - I remember thinking, this is great, why wouldn't I want more girl friends?
I started out in college sharing a one bedroom unit with a lesbian girl (I took the living room). Then a two bedroom unit with the girlfriend of someone I worked with at college (I forget why she lived with me instead of him?) and then when they broke up, and I moved to a different 2 bedroom unit, she followed me and we got another girl who got evicted from her place so now I lived in this unit with these two girls. So on and so forth for the next 10 years. The strangest story I had was meeting a girl while rock climbing, she had no belayer. I offered to have my group belay for her, I snapped her picture while she was on the wall as an excuse to get her contact details. Asked her out for a lunch, she said she had just arrived in the country and was living with relatives temporarily, I asked if she wanted to live with me and she said yes. We made a handshake rental agreement over lunch, there was a language barrier since she didn't speak much English. I asked how long she wanted to live with me (rental lease term, right?) and she said "forever".
... which is not to say I didn't make mistakes, or was a perfect, or even good person. I messed up, learned from it, messed other things up. There was once we were drinking and a girl and I got into a disagreement and yelled at each other then felt so bad we cried and hugged it out afterwards. Many things can be forgiven, but not if you never liked girls to begin with I guess...
posted by xdvesper at 8:03 PM on September 7 [4 favorites]
Incels are maladjusted, but they are not notorious rapists.
One killed 11 in my city, to continue the “incel rebellion” started by another one.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:10 PM on September 7 [16 favorites]
One killed 11 in my city, to continue the “incel rebellion” started by another one.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:10 PM on September 7 [16 favorites]
Oh we can tell all right. Those men who don't even see us. 🙄
I can't imagine being so emotionally dead that you can't see, hear, imagine or care about almost half of the population, but they are legion. I
It'd be sad if it weren't so passively hateful.
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:11 PM on September 7 [7 favorites]
I can't imagine being so emotionally dead that you can't see, hear, imagine or care about almost half of the population, but they are legion. I
It'd be sad if it weren't so passively hateful.
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:11 PM on September 7 [7 favorites]
We could debate whether we're talking about the "real" Glenn Powell or the "Glen Powell" character Glen Powell plays in public appearances, but I'm not sure it actually matters since we're unlikely to ever encounter the "real" guy. Talking about celebrities and what they do is kinda like discussing characters in fiction. If nothing else, it's significant that some actors more than others choose to perform a public persona that visibly recognizes and enjoys women as people.
posted by straight at 8:42 PM on September 7 [7 favorites]
posted by straight at 8:42 PM on September 7 [7 favorites]
Is this analogous to the girl that hangs "with the boys" and mostly has guy friends because she likes sports and video games - similar interests and brain chemistry?
I think it can be isn't necessarily the case. I'm typically more comfortable in a female dominated space but I'm a pretty manly man as these things go. I'm a powerlifter, I like violent video games and movies, like going to a monster truck rally now and again, I drink beer and have facial hair.
I hadn't thought about it this way before the idea that male dominated spaces come with increased pressure to perform masculinity rings very true for me. I don't have to hide my masculinity but I also don't have to be afraid of displaying my feminine either. I can just be me, so can everyone else.
posted by VTX at 9:01 PM on September 7 [2 favorites]
I think it can be isn't necessarily the case. I'm typically more comfortable in a female dominated space but I'm a pretty manly man as these things go. I'm a powerlifter, I like violent video games and movies, like going to a monster truck rally now and again, I drink beer and have facial hair.
I hadn't thought about it this way before the idea that male dominated spaces come with increased pressure to perform masculinity rings very true for me. I don't have to hide my masculinity but I also don't have to be afraid of displaying my feminine either. I can just be me, so can everyone else.
posted by VTX at 9:01 PM on September 7 [2 favorites]
In my ongoing search for other middle-aged cis guys to be friends with, it’s always excited to meet one who’s as interesting and engaging as the average woman, just in a pure friendship level. It’s depressingly rare.
posted by gottabefunky at 9:45 PM on September 7 [7 favorites]
posted by gottabefunky at 9:45 PM on September 7 [7 favorites]
Mod note: One deleted. Don't be "random guy who always shows up to explain how the professional woman writer wrote it wrong."
posted by taz (staff) at 10:21 PM on September 7 [17 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 10:21 PM on September 7 [17 favorites]
This is bringing up all kinds of feels for me, particularly the description of how boys are *socialized* to not like women. I was socialized to not like women, and to want to be “one of the boys”, and it took me probably until my late 20’s to realize what bullshit that was. It didn’t help that most of my interests were masculine-coded and I was often one of the only girls/women around. And I was baffled by what shitty reactions I got to behaving in the assertive, confident way that boys are encouraged to, until I figured out surprisingly late that the world was kinder to me when I acted more diffident and unsure.
And in the last decade I’ve largely shifted to where I avoid groups where I know it’ll be largely men, and have intentionally been seeking out women. I just don’t want to hear how random men talk about the women in their lives.
>Honestly, I don't think it's enough as a man to like women. You have to hate misogyny. It has to repulse you, whether you see it in others or when you notice it in yourself.
Yeah, this.
There were two interactions with one of my exes (who I do think actually likes women) that made me realize that I’m now not even OK with men who are friends with men who speak badly of the women in their lives.
* One was observing him at a gaming event with some of his best friends. Nothing his friends said was that terrible by society’s standards, but it sure didn’t seem like they loved/respected their wives.
* The second was how he was OK with his sister’s fiancee making mean jokes at her expense when we were hanging out. I tried to explain afterwards why I didn’t think it was OK, and that went nowhere.
posted by Metasyntactic at 12:57 AM on September 8 [11 favorites]
And in the last decade I’ve largely shifted to where I avoid groups where I know it’ll be largely men, and have intentionally been seeking out women. I just don’t want to hear how random men talk about the women in their lives.
>Honestly, I don't think it's enough as a man to like women. You have to hate misogyny. It has to repulse you, whether you see it in others or when you notice it in yourself.
Yeah, this.
There were two interactions with one of my exes (who I do think actually likes women) that made me realize that I’m now not even OK with men who are friends with men who speak badly of the women in their lives.
* One was observing him at a gaming event with some of his best friends. Nothing his friends said was that terrible by society’s standards, but it sure didn’t seem like they loved/respected their wives.
* The second was how he was OK with his sister’s fiancee making mean jokes at her expense when we were hanging out. I tried to explain afterwards why I didn’t think it was OK, and that went nowhere.
posted by Metasyntactic at 12:57 AM on September 8 [11 favorites]
I decided a few years ago that if I followed someone on social media who A) recommended books, TV shows, comedy acts, etc... AND B ) only ever recommended things by white men, I'd stop following them. (Most of the people who I noticed doing this were white men, you won't be surprised to hear.)
It doesn't matter much to me whether they were only reading things by white men, only connected with/loved things by white men, or did like things by other categories of person but just, like, forgot about them when asked to recommend things- all of those feel both icky and boring.
I don't even remember any of the people I stopped following. I do love the interesting, interested people who I still follow, though!
posted by Shark Hat at 3:00 AM on September 8 [8 favorites]
It doesn't matter much to me whether they were only reading things by white men, only connected with/loved things by white men, or did like things by other categories of person but just, like, forgot about them when asked to recommend things- all of those feel both icky and boring.
I don't even remember any of the people I stopped following. I do love the interesting, interested people who I still follow, though!
posted by Shark Hat at 3:00 AM on September 8 [8 favorites]
Not the first time I've encountered a casual mention of Mormonism like it's just a normal thing to do.
posted by jy4m at 4:17 AM on September 8 [5 favorites]
posted by jy4m at 4:17 AM on September 8 [5 favorites]
In my ongoing search for other middle-aged cis guys to be friends with, it’s always excited to meet one who’s as interesting and engaging as the average woman, just in a pure friendship level. It’s depressingly rare.
From your mouth to the gods' ears. One of my good male friends died about 20 years ago, and I'm still down one.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 4:57 AM on September 8 [2 favorites]
From your mouth to the gods' ears. One of my good male friends died about 20 years ago, and I'm still down one.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 4:57 AM on September 8 [2 favorites]
Not the first time I've encountered a casual mention of Mormonism like it's just a normal thing to do.
I noticed that too. I’m guessing the author’s regular readers would have more context about her Mormonism, and in particular, how it fits in with her feminism. Not being a regular reader, and also not living anywhere where I encounter Mormons regularly, it took me by surprise. But, eh, everyone comes from somewhere.
posted by eviemath at 6:40 AM on September 8
I noticed that too. I’m guessing the author’s regular readers would have more context about her Mormonism, and in particular, how it fits in with her feminism. Not being a regular reader, and also not living anywhere where I encounter Mormons regularly, it took me by surprise. But, eh, everyone comes from somewhere.
posted by eviemath at 6:40 AM on September 8
Not the first time I've encountered a casual mention of Mormonism like it's just a normal thing to do.
That’s probably because it is a normal thing to do? I bet there are way more LDS/former LDS people out there than folks who play pickle ball.
posted by Gygesringtone at 7:13 AM on September 8 [5 favorites]
That’s probably because it is a normal thing to do? I bet there are way more LDS/former LDS people out there than folks who play pickle ball.
posted by Gygesringtone at 7:13 AM on September 8 [5 favorites]
Related: The Moral Implications of Being a Moderately Successful Computer Scientist and a Woman
"Being a woman in tech is insane. We do not work in the same moral system model as most of the people that we interact with daily and we can’t talk about it, because when we do, we are the ones portrayed as crazy or hysterical."
"However, as the Entitled book notes: many men have been and feel that they have a right to be adored by the women in their lives. It sounds ridiculous, but I am not their mother or daughter, and I do not owe them anything. However, since so many men only interact with women in this way, perhaps it isn’t surprising that they mistake me for one of these roles. In our society, men are generally not friends with women (unless they have been friend-zoned and worthy of pity), so the only models that men have for how to interact with women come from experiences with their mothers, wives and daughters."
posted by AlSweigart at 8:04 AM on September 8 [11 favorites]
"Being a woman in tech is insane. We do not work in the same moral system model as most of the people that we interact with daily and we can’t talk about it, because when we do, we are the ones portrayed as crazy or hysterical."
"However, as the Entitled book notes: many men have been and feel that they have a right to be adored by the women in their lives. It sounds ridiculous, but I am not their mother or daughter, and I do not owe them anything. However, since so many men only interact with women in this way, perhaps it isn’t surprising that they mistake me for one of these roles. In our society, men are generally not friends with women (unless they have been friend-zoned and worthy of pity), so the only models that men have for how to interact with women come from experiences with their mothers, wives and daughters."
posted by AlSweigart at 8:04 AM on September 8 [11 favorites]
(O.k., so after some quick googling there's probably around the same amount of pickle ball players as current and former LDS, but I still feel it's very... odd, to think that mentioning one's religion is not normal in America)
posted by Gygesringtone at 8:07 AM on September 8 [7 favorites]
posted by Gygesringtone at 8:07 AM on September 8 [7 favorites]
yeah, there's something to this. George Clooney was also late to stardom, and (as the articles note) has most of the same traits -- looks great in clothes, genuinely likes women, is in on the joke.
It always struck me that George Clooney, confirmed bachelor for years, decided to get married to one of the most interesting women in the world. They've been married for a decade now, which is pretty good for a famous actor.
posted by Merus at 8:14 AM on September 8 [5 favorites]
It always struck me that George Clooney, confirmed bachelor for years, decided to get married to one of the most interesting women in the world. They've been married for a decade now, which is pretty good for a famous actor.
posted by Merus at 8:14 AM on September 8 [5 favorites]
"...odd, to think that mentioning one's religion is not normal in America"
It's becoming increasingly more common. You've seen the articles about how much *less* religious the US is getting? Hard to see because of the counter examples but I've gone a couple of decades wo hearing someone mention their religion. Probably just the circles I'm in.
posted by aleph at 8:38 AM on September 8
It's becoming increasingly more common. You've seen the articles about how much *less* religious the US is getting? Hard to see because of the counter examples but I've gone a couple of decades wo hearing someone mention their religion. Probably just the circles I'm in.
posted by aleph at 8:38 AM on September 8
"I can't imagine being so emotionally dead that you can't see, hear, imagine or care about almost half of the population, but they are legion."
Well, a lot of those don't care about much of the rest of the population either.
posted by aleph at 8:40 AM on September 8
Well, a lot of those don't care about much of the rest of the population either.
posted by aleph at 8:40 AM on September 8
...around the same amount...
Quick derail but it's crazy that you were so close! I get the point you're making even if the data doesn't back it up. It's just impressive on it's own, well done.
How good at this are you? What sport has the same number of players as Buddhists?
/derail
posted by VTX at 8:46 AM on September 8 [1 favorite]
Quick derail but it's crazy that you were so close! I get the point you're making even if the data doesn't back it up. It's just impressive on it's own, well done.
How good at this are you? What sport has the same number of players as Buddhists?
/derail
posted by VTX at 8:46 AM on September 8 [1 favorite]
It is not ok to say that about being Jewish, Muslim, or Hindu either. Do not do this.
posted by bq at 8:50 AM on September 8 [3 favorites]
posted by bq at 8:50 AM on September 8 [3 favorites]
Metasyntactic: This is bringing up all kinds of feels for me, particularly the description of how boys are *socialized* to not like women. I was socialized to not like women, and to want to be “one of the boys”
Yup -- since men hold the power in all ways that matter, what they want is what we learn. Plenty of women hate women or look down on women -- whether they know it or not -- either in the "I'm not like other girls" way or in the "my purpose in life is to clean the house and bear children" way or all the many ways in between. Misogyny is rampant in men and women. Maybe, I think, we're starting to have more discussions about this in general. I guess we'll see.
(It's as difficult to respond to someone who says "I don't hate women, I *am* a woman!" as it is to respond to a man who says "I'm not a misogynist; I have sisters!" Like - we don't have time for the necessary conversations to help you undo this knot.)
posted by tzikeh at 8:51 AM on September 8 [11 favorites]
Yup -- since men hold the power in all ways that matter, what they want is what we learn. Plenty of women hate women or look down on women -- whether they know it or not -- either in the "I'm not like other girls" way or in the "my purpose in life is to clean the house and bear children" way or all the many ways in between. Misogyny is rampant in men and women. Maybe, I think, we're starting to have more discussions about this in general. I guess we'll see.
(It's as difficult to respond to someone who says "I don't hate women, I *am* a woman!" as it is to respond to a man who says "I'm not a misogynist; I have sisters!" Like - we don't have time for the necessary conversations to help you undo this knot.)
posted by tzikeh at 8:51 AM on September 8 [11 favorites]
I really like the "Do they like women?" framing. We often think in terms of "Does this man hate women?" which is a macro question. There are plenty of men who are nominally feminist, think women deserve equality, do not physically harm or intentionally discriminate against women, but on a more granular level demonstrably do not care for women at all.
These are men who do not have female friends. Their relationship with their partner is more of a truce than a partnership. They wish she would stop talking so they could go back to whatever they would rather be doing. They have couple friends where at best, they know the woman's name, but could not tell you what she does for a living or what her interests are, because the first opportunity to peel off to a men only space, they took it.
You can zoom the camera back and see that yeah, this is misogyny, too. But I like this framing because it reminds us that there are a million micro ways men interact with women that can be positive or negative and it matters how they measure here as well.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:53 AM on September 8 [14 favorites]
These are men who do not have female friends. Their relationship with their partner is more of a truce than a partnership. They wish she would stop talking so they could go back to whatever they would rather be doing. They have couple friends where at best, they know the woman's name, but could not tell you what she does for a living or what her interests are, because the first opportunity to peel off to a men only space, they took it.
You can zoom the camera back and see that yeah, this is misogyny, too. But I like this framing because it reminds us that there are a million micro ways men interact with women that can be positive or negative and it matters how they measure here as well.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:53 AM on September 8 [14 favorites]
What sport has the same number of players as Buddhists?
From my haphazard googling, it’s Squash. Make of that what you will!
posted by Jon Mitchell at 9:50 AM on September 8 [3 favorites]
From my haphazard googling, it’s Squash. Make of that what you will!
posted by Jon Mitchell at 9:50 AM on September 8 [3 favorites]
"I can't imagine being so emotionally dead that you can't see, hear, imagine or care about almost half of the population, but they are legion."
Well, a lot of those don't care about much of the rest of the population either.
posted by aleph
Cool, yeah, this post is about misogyny though.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:39 AM on September 8 [7 favorites]
Well, a lot of those don't care about much of the rest of the population either.
posted by aleph
Cool, yeah, this post is about misogyny though.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:39 AM on September 8 [7 favorites]
Word, tfp.
The existence of misanthropy does not disprove the prevalence of misogyny. Plenty of guys who hate everybody generally still manage to hate women and girls especially. (See also: “I’m stuck in the FRIENDZONE because the women I deserve only want other, less-deserving guys, for stupid woman reasons!”)
posted by armeowda at 11:00 AM on September 8 [9 favorites]
The existence of misanthropy does not disprove the prevalence of misogyny. Plenty of guys who hate everybody generally still manage to hate women and girls especially. (See also: “I’m stuck in the FRIENDZONE because the women I deserve only want other, less-deserving guys, for stupid woman reasons!”)
posted by armeowda at 11:00 AM on September 8 [9 favorites]
Interestingly, the same used to be said appreciatively of porn star James Deen.
I appreciate how my earlier comment was scrubbed precisely for making this point, but was characterized as "random guy who always shows up to explain how the professional woman writer wrote it wrong."
Professional writers get stuff wrong all the time. Using a movie performance as an example is fraught with uncertainty because she's using real people as examples for their fictional portrayals in wholly fabricated circumstances. This is a testament to the talent of the actors and associated creative crew. But using an actor, or their performance, as exemplary behavior for a particular case has always been a shakey practice for obvious reasons.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:34 AM on September 8 [4 favorites]
I appreciate how my earlier comment was scrubbed precisely for making this point, but was characterized as "random guy who always shows up to explain how the professional woman writer wrote it wrong."
Professional writers get stuff wrong all the time. Using a movie performance as an example is fraught with uncertainty because she's using real people as examples for their fictional portrayals in wholly fabricated circumstances. This is a testament to the talent of the actors and associated creative crew. But using an actor, or their performance, as exemplary behavior for a particular case has always been a shakey practice for obvious reasons.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:34 AM on September 8 [4 favorites]
I've never understood how you hate women but still want to fuck them. I guess heterosexuality is really ingrained in some people? And why hate them? Because they're weaker than you and have less power? I guess?
I seriously wonder if we'd have more equality at times if we had less size/strength differentials between the genders, in general.
Most men are boring, frankly. I like theater men because they are interesting, but most guys are not. People wonder why I'm very, very rarely interested in anyone and well, that's why. Men wear boring clothes, most have what I consider to be pretty boring interests or don't have any interests, some have little or nothing to say, and a good chunk of men hate women and only seem to want them around for orgasms and to make their din-dins and sons.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:37 AM on September 8 [2 favorites]
I seriously wonder if we'd have more equality at times if we had less size/strength differentials between the genders, in general.
Most men are boring, frankly. I like theater men because they are interesting, but most guys are not. People wonder why I'm very, very rarely interested in anyone and well, that's why. Men wear boring clothes, most have what I consider to be pretty boring interests or don't have any interests, some have little or nothing to say, and a good chunk of men hate women and only seem to want them around for orgasms and to make their din-dins and sons.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:37 AM on September 8 [2 favorites]
Oh, here's how Brad was with Angelina and her own Weinstein issues. Also, Brad has been physically abusive to Angelina and at least one kid on that plane ride and has been harassing the shit out of her for EIGHT YEARS since she left him. So Brad is not a good guy any more.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:41 AM on September 8 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:41 AM on September 8 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure most men truly understand that women are actual people with our own thoughts, feelings and motivations, honestly. I've heard so many of them talk about us as though we're objects to be earned, to show to other men as proof that they're worthy in some way.
Thinking about it too long makes me very tired, and sad.
posted by peppermind at 12:00 PM on September 8 [5 favorites]
Thinking about it too long makes me very tired, and sad.
posted by peppermind at 12:00 PM on September 8 [5 favorites]
I've never understood how you hate women but still want to fuck them.
A lot of the hate comes from women not conforming to their conception of how women are supposed to act. The virgin/whore stereotype though that's over-simplifying.
Even if everyone woman did their level best to live up to those expectations* men would inevitably still be frustrated because there are individual differences so there's just no way for women to make all men happy.
"I successfully performed masculinity so now I am owed female companionship!"
*It hit me as I was typing that that it's basically the part of the Barbie movie when all the Kens were in charge.
posted by VTX at 12:03 PM on September 8 [1 favorite]
A lot of the hate comes from women not conforming to their conception of how women are supposed to act. The virgin/whore stereotype though that's over-simplifying.
Even if everyone woman did their level best to live up to those expectations* men would inevitably still be frustrated because there are individual differences so there's just no way for women to make all men happy.
"I successfully performed masculinity so now I am owed female companionship!"
*It hit me as I was typing that that it's basically the part of the Barbie movie when all the Kens were in charge.
posted by VTX at 12:03 PM on September 8 [1 favorite]
In my ongoing search for other middle-aged cis guys to be friends with, it’s always excited to meet one who’s as interesting and engaging as the average woman, just in a pure friendship level. It’s depressingly rare.
So I am a woman who genuinely likes men, but I feel like I kind of have a “cheat code” - as a veteran, I am male-coded enough to bypass a lot of their beliefs about women, but I am also not a man, so they feel more comfortable showing vulnerability. And what I have found is that men are delightful and fascinating *once they let their mask off*. It is their mask that is boring, not them. When they are vulnerable about their hopes and fears and nuances, they are astonishingly glorious. When they tamp their emotions down because they aren’t socially acceptable, they are just basically playing a role.
Now, what I will admit is that probably women engaged in playing a role are likely equally boring-appearing. And one of the things that is tempting is to respond with a role when presented with a role. But the problem is still the false role in the first place.
posted by corb at 1:26 PM on September 8 [24 favorites]
So I am a woman who genuinely likes men, but I feel like I kind of have a “cheat code” - as a veteran, I am male-coded enough to bypass a lot of their beliefs about women, but I am also not a man, so they feel more comfortable showing vulnerability. And what I have found is that men are delightful and fascinating *once they let their mask off*. It is their mask that is boring, not them. When they are vulnerable about their hopes and fears and nuances, they are astonishingly glorious. When they tamp their emotions down because they aren’t socially acceptable, they are just basically playing a role.
Now, what I will admit is that probably women engaged in playing a role are likely equally boring-appearing. And one of the things that is tempting is to respond with a role when presented with a role. But the problem is still the false role in the first place.
posted by corb at 1:26 PM on September 8 [24 favorites]
In discussions about misogyny I often think of the former District Attorney for the City of Los Angeles, Gil Garcetti, speaking after the murder of one Nicole Brown Simpson: "If women murdered men at the rate that men murder women, it would be instantly declared a national emergency". Gil got it. He valued women's lives.
There was another man I can't find his name now, but he is a philanthropist who funds women getting back to independent living and physical protection to women who had been physically and psychologically abused by their male partners. During an interview in the Los Angeles Times he said, "I believe in a woman's right to go on living after she has left her male partner". Another guy who I would consider an actual hero.
posted by effluvia at 1:41 PM on September 8 [12 favorites]
There was another man I can't find his name now, but he is a philanthropist who funds women getting back to independent living and physical protection to women who had been physically and psychologically abused by their male partners. During an interview in the Los Angeles Times he said, "I believe in a woman's right to go on living after she has left her male partner". Another guy who I would consider an actual hero.
posted by effluvia at 1:41 PM on September 8 [12 favorites]
> I've never understood how you hate women but still want to fuck them.
A lot of the hate comes from women not conforming to their conception of how women are supposed to act. The virgin/whore stereotype though that's over-simplifying.
That, or they see women as the unfortunately necessary vestigial organ attached to the vagina that provides them with the service they do love.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:45 PM on September 8 [2 favorites]
A lot of the hate comes from women not conforming to their conception of how women are supposed to act. The virgin/whore stereotype though that's over-simplifying.
That, or they see women as the unfortunately necessary vestigial organ attached to the vagina that provides them with the service they do love.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:45 PM on September 8 [2 favorites]
Using a movie performance as an example is fraught with uncertainty because she's using real people as examples for their fictional portrayals in wholly fabricated circumstances. This is a testament to the talent of the actors and associated creative crew. But using an actor, or their performance, as exemplary behavior for a particular case has always been a shakey practice for obvious reasons.
But if actors can consistently be found portraying characters who do or don't enjoy women, that still tells you something. It might tell you whether your are likely to enjoy their next movie, which is the most important thing to know about an actor. It seems to have worked great for the author of the article.
posted by straight at 3:29 PM on September 8 [3 favorites]
But if actors can consistently be found portraying characters who do or don't enjoy women, that still tells you something. It might tell you whether your are likely to enjoy their next movie, which is the most important thing to know about an actor. It seems to have worked great for the author of the article.
posted by straight at 3:29 PM on September 8 [3 favorites]
Professional writers get stuff wrong all the timeAt the risk of turning this into a derail, Anne Helen Petersen is a media specialist and is very much well-read enough to get the distinction between celebrity-as-performance and a celebrity's authentic self (if such a thing exists). She would be aware---as I was trying to argue upthread---that there are plenty of celebrities who cultivate, often successfully, specific personas, but who are very much not that person. It's impossible for ordinary fans to ever know, just as it's impossible to know whether Samuel L. Jackson really swears a lot, or whether Lee van Cleef really was mean. Bill Cosby was America's trusty uncle for decades. Marilyn Monroe was very witty and had a knowing sense of humour. Ronald Reagan was... well.
I don't think she's got it wrong, I think what she's argued is that the kind of role Powell has created for himself is a valuable one, that of a star, which at the moment necessarily involves being perceived as enjoying women's company, and being self-aware and self-deprecating ('in on the joke'). And whether Powell is actually a good man or something else, once the cameras are off, and he goes home, is irrelevant to that.
And VTX's point, about the 'act' of being a persona being reified over the actual being of a person:
...the idea that male dominated spaces come with increased pressure to perform masculinity rings very true for me.Absolutely: and all the more pressure when the performances men are called upon to mimic are those of young, good looking, white and Western, good-clothes-fitting, self-confident but self-deprecating, professional actors! Patriarchy's a hell of a ride for everyone.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 8:26 PM on September 8 [2 favorites]
That said. Like all Australian men of my age and class I do my best to model myself on our universal role model: Bluey’s Dad.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 8:38 PM on September 8 [12 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 8:38 PM on September 8 [12 favorites]
I'm adding to the chorus of men confirming that most men don't really like women. Oh, they're useful and fun to do certain things with, but it's only been the last six or seven years (I'm early 60s) that I've realised they generally just don't like them at all. I liked the comment here that most men are not actually straight, because they like other men more than women (or words to that effect) and I think this is such a truth that I feel like I can finally see the whole picture. I grew up in an all-female household and I don't know how much that matters or not, but I suspect it's more common than not in men who like women.
Personally, I've rarely felt comfortable in men-only spaces for any length of time. In such spaces, the topic of how women are great for sexy times, child bearing and cooking, but a pain in the arse the rest of the time will always come up, eventually. Always. I've never really had the confidence to push back against this shit, so I just keep quiet. Which means most men don't really warm to me - I think they can sense I'm not 'one of the boys' in the way society says I'm supposed to be. For most of my life, anyone I would call a very close friend or best friend has been female. I don't really think about it much at all, but it's a noticeable difference with most men. I don't know whether this is copying behavior from influential males or the underlying influences in society that say men should be men and women should be nervous. I certainly agree that there are many public figures that very clearly do not like women at all, even when they may be seen regularly parading with one on their arm and no matter how convincing they are in interviews (Tom Cruise is a great example of this).
posted by dg at 9:40 PM on September 8 [7 favorites]
Personally, I've rarely felt comfortable in men-only spaces for any length of time. In such spaces, the topic of how women are great for sexy times, child bearing and cooking, but a pain in the arse the rest of the time will always come up, eventually. Always. I've never really had the confidence to push back against this shit, so I just keep quiet. Which means most men don't really warm to me - I think they can sense I'm not 'one of the boys' in the way society says I'm supposed to be. For most of my life, anyone I would call a very close friend or best friend has been female. I don't really think about it much at all, but it's a noticeable difference with most men. I don't know whether this is copying behavior from influential males or the underlying influences in society that say men should be men and women should be nervous. I certainly agree that there are many public figures that very clearly do not like women at all, even when they may be seen regularly parading with one on their arm and no matter how convincing they are in interviews (Tom Cruise is a great example of this).
posted by dg at 9:40 PM on September 8 [7 favorites]
Like all Australian men of my age and class I do my best to model myself on our universal role model: Bluey’s Dad.
There's always a kernel of truth in jest - there's a terrible shortage of positive male role models for young men, it's true.
posted by dg at 9:41 PM on September 8 [2 favorites]
There's always a kernel of truth in jest - there's a terrible shortage of positive male role models for young men, it's true.
posted by dg at 9:41 PM on September 8 [2 favorites]
Chuffy, may your friendships be deep and long-lasting. May you also considering the Metafiler guidelines (see the FAQ) for adding positively to a thread, not mere "I don't get it."
And may you have your ears open when someone says "it's okay if the generalisation doesn't match your specific experience, this piece doesn't have to be for you" or "some specific people have trauma and some specific people live in a world that's traumatising -- consider the examples in the thread where men say 'acting as a man conditioned me to be disrespectful to women' -- so the specific people look like counter-examples, not liking people and keeping emotional distance to protect themselves." Then maybe (comrade) we can check the power analysis -- who has power in the situation, and who stands to lose or gain -- to show the direction that this flows, in general, from men with agency to women responding.
straight: We could debate whether we're talking about the "real" Glenn Powell or the "Glen Powell" character Glen Powell plays in public appearances.
I've only seen Powell in Twisters, but the chat around a recent Behind the Bastards podcast had them mention Twisters and they described Powell had having "resting family annihilator face" -- so please add that to the fire.
posted by k3ninho at 1:25 AM on September 9 [9 favorites]
And may you have your ears open when someone says "it's okay if the generalisation doesn't match your specific experience, this piece doesn't have to be for you" or "some specific people have trauma and some specific people live in a world that's traumatising -- consider the examples in the thread where men say 'acting as a man conditioned me to be disrespectful to women' -- so the specific people look like counter-examples, not liking people and keeping emotional distance to protect themselves." Then maybe (comrade) we can check the power analysis -- who has power in the situation, and who stands to lose or gain -- to show the direction that this flows, in general, from men with agency to women responding.
straight: We could debate whether we're talking about the "real" Glenn Powell or the "Glen Powell" character Glen Powell plays in public appearances.
I've only seen Powell in Twisters, but the chat around a recent Behind the Bastards podcast had them mention Twisters and they described Powell had having "resting family annihilator face" -- so please add that to the fire.
posted by k3ninho at 1:25 AM on September 9 [9 favorites]
Chuffy: "Oh geez, can't you just let us have THIS one idea and NOT make it about YOU?!?!" (which is absolutely what I imagine the response to be from women who don't like men).
Neat. So if someone objects to making this topic about whether women like men, you've already painted them as a woman who doesn't like men. Well, screw that, I'm going to object anyway.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:16 AM on September 9 [11 favorites]
Neat. So if someone objects to making this topic about whether women like men, you've already painted them as a woman who doesn't like men. Well, screw that, I'm going to object anyway.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:16 AM on September 9 [11 favorites]
....I'm going to let Margaret Atwood speak for me:
"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:30 AM on September 9 [11 favorites]
"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:30 AM on September 9 [11 favorites]
This thought experiment is interesting
The fact that you have (presumably) read the articles and this thread and view this as a hypothetical rather than seeing people describing their lived experience is certainly a tell indicating which side you come down on.
posted by eviemath at 4:10 AM on September 9 [12 favorites]
The fact that you have (presumably) read the articles and this thread and view this as a hypothetical rather than seeing people describing their lived experience is certainly a tell indicating which side you come down on.
posted by eviemath at 4:10 AM on September 9 [12 favorites]
the topic of how women are great for sexy times, child bearing and cooking, but a pain in the arse the rest of the time will always come up, eventually. Always. I've never really had the confidence to push back against this shit, so I just keep quiet. Which means most men don't really warm to me -
All of this is sad. But please try to speak up. Because otherwise, it's being complicit in misogyny, not to accuse you or try to be mean to you in any way, this stuff is hard. But silence is agreement.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:04 AM on September 9 [3 favorites]
All of this is sad. But please try to speak up. Because otherwise, it's being complicit in misogyny, not to accuse you or try to be mean to you in any way, this stuff is hard. But silence is agreement.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:04 AM on September 9 [3 favorites]
Chuffy: "Oh geez, can't you just let us have THIS one idea and NOT make it about YOU?!?!" (which is absolutely what I imagine the response to be from women who don't like men).
Too-Ticky: Neat. So if someone objects to making this topic about whether women like men, you've already painted them as a woman who doesn't like men. Well, screw that, I'm going to object anyway.
I'm reposting this because here we are, nearing the end of 2024, and shit like this keeps happening on MetaFilter. No matter how many times we hash out the "This post isn't about that, and this discussion isn't about that, and please don't come into a thread about things that affect women's lives and try to change the subject into things that affect men's lives. If you want to talk about that topic, make an FPP about it," we still get this shit.
I looked it up - it was 2010 when we had a thread about female genital mutilation in which there were multiple comments about how male circumcision is *just as bad if not worse so why aren't you talking about that, huh?. WHAT ABOUT THE MEN?*
Just any FYI - that's what it sounds like, every time. Call me man-hater, I guess.
posted by tzikeh at 6:20 AM on September 9 [17 favorites]
Too-Ticky: Neat. So if someone objects to making this topic about whether women like men, you've already painted them as a woman who doesn't like men. Well, screw that, I'm going to object anyway.
I'm reposting this because here we are, nearing the end of 2024, and shit like this keeps happening on MetaFilter. No matter how many times we hash out the "This post isn't about that, and this discussion isn't about that, and please don't come into a thread about things that affect women's lives and try to change the subject into things that affect men's lives. If you want to talk about that topic, make an FPP about it," we still get this shit.
I looked it up - it was 2010 when we had a thread about female genital mutilation in which there were multiple comments about how male circumcision is *just as bad if not worse so why aren't you talking about that, huh?. WHAT ABOUT THE MEN?*
Just any FYI - that's what it sounds like, every time. Call me man-hater, I guess.
posted by tzikeh at 6:20 AM on September 9 [17 favorites]
My spouse is still friends with his exes: like, interested and friendly even now in their lives! And he has asked me once or twice if I am friends with any of my exes as I never really mention them. For me, it's fraught. My previous relationships, as mentioned upthread, were grossly one-sided.
I don't think my ex-boyfriends liked me; I don't think they hated or disliked me purposefully, but my agency was always greatly reduced. I didn't know how to speak up or advocate for myself to them (of course, my friends got an earful).
posted by Kitteh at 6:37 AM on September 9 [2 favorites]
I don't think my ex-boyfriends liked me; I don't think they hated or disliked me purposefully, but my agency was always greatly reduced. I didn't know how to speak up or advocate for myself to them (of course, my friends got an earful).
posted by Kitteh at 6:37 AM on September 9 [2 favorites]
so I just keep quiet. Which means most men don't really warm to me -
...most men don't really warm to you? Because you DON'T engage in woman bashing? Oh no...one might spare a thought for the women being disparaged.
Again, I'm not trying to pick on you cause this shit is common. But so, SO disappointing, and imagine how disappointing it would be to the women in your life that you stay silent?
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:41 AM on September 9 [2 favorites]
...most men don't really warm to you? Because you DON'T engage in woman bashing? Oh no...one might spare a thought for the women being disparaged.
Again, I'm not trying to pick on you cause this shit is common. But so, SO disappointing, and imagine how disappointing it would be to the women in your life that you stay silent?
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:41 AM on September 9 [2 favorites]
There’s something in the second essay, that relates I believe to what jscalzi was saying above about utility vs value. Because it talks about how the framings of women are affected by class, and I think this ties into the utility theory of perceived sexual availability.
So, until relatively recently, women were sorted much more openly by class and perceived respectability. Men had requirements to treat some women with respect and interest, but men of really all classes were essentially able to be predatory upon women who didn’t meet the standards of being a “good woman” - which required a shifting combination of whiteness, socioeconomic class, perceived virginity, and social emplacement. Even up through the middle of the last century, it was understood that a man who got a “good girl” pregnant might have to marry her, but impregnating a woman who didn’t fall into that category would only create the moral requirement to offer her enough money for an illicit abortion.
We started moving away from those stark ways of dividing women into Madonna/whore categories, but I think unfortunately one result was that instead of lifting up the treatment of all women, in many ways a number of men *lowered* their behavior to all women, rather than give up that predatory sexuality that created early sexual availability. So instead of having some women they treated well, and some they treated badly, they now had an indeterminate mass of women that they all treated somewhat shabbily. And it became considered acceptable and even praiseworthy to lie to all women to get them to sleep with men.
And you really can’t afford to treat people that you are using as a sexual slot machine like humans, because if you do, your conscience will bother you. So thus comes the inevitable dehumanization.
posted by corb at 7:43 AM on September 9 [5 favorites]
So, until relatively recently, women were sorted much more openly by class and perceived respectability. Men had requirements to treat some women with respect and interest, but men of really all classes were essentially able to be predatory upon women who didn’t meet the standards of being a “good woman” - which required a shifting combination of whiteness, socioeconomic class, perceived virginity, and social emplacement. Even up through the middle of the last century, it was understood that a man who got a “good girl” pregnant might have to marry her, but impregnating a woman who didn’t fall into that category would only create the moral requirement to offer her enough money for an illicit abortion.
We started moving away from those stark ways of dividing women into Madonna/whore categories, but I think unfortunately one result was that instead of lifting up the treatment of all women, in many ways a number of men *lowered* their behavior to all women, rather than give up that predatory sexuality that created early sexual availability. So instead of having some women they treated well, and some they treated badly, they now had an indeterminate mass of women that they all treated somewhat shabbily. And it became considered acceptable and even praiseworthy to lie to all women to get them to sleep with men.
And you really can’t afford to treat people that you are using as a sexual slot machine like humans, because if you do, your conscience will bother you. So thus comes the inevitable dehumanization.
posted by corb at 7:43 AM on September 9 [5 favorites]
Mod note: One comment and it's reply deleted as per the Be sensitive to context section of the guidelines.
posted by loup (staff) at 7:58 AM on September 9 [1 favorite]
posted by loup (staff) at 7:58 AM on September 9 [1 favorite]
"resting family annihilator face"
Ok, I'm at a loss. What on earth does that mean?
(I assume it doesn't mean that he literally has lethal laser-beam eyes...)
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:15 AM on September 9
Ok, I'm at a loss. What on earth does that mean?
(I assume it doesn't mean that he literally has lethal laser-beam eyes...)
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:15 AM on September 9
Greg_Ace: "family annihilation" or familicide is a particular pattern of murder (often culminating in suicide).
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:32 AM on September 9 [5 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:32 AM on September 9 [5 favorites]
I understand that, but it doesn't help me understand what "family annihilator face" means as a description of someone. Is it just a macabre way to say "he looks like a psychotic killer"?
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:38 AM on September 9 [1 favorite]
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:38 AM on September 9 [1 favorite]
I am fully aware that simply posing the question opens me up to criticism. That's OK, I like women, and have a lifetime of experience in being on the receiving end of the general dislike...it cuts both ways.
but do you? like the way you're talking about women in that comment and subsequent ones come across as, i dunno, a little annoyed/spurned/irritated/distrustful/dismissive, tinged with general dislike
posted by i used to be someone else at 2:54 PM on September 9 [5 favorites]
but do you? like the way you're talking about women in that comment and subsequent ones come across as, i dunno, a little annoyed/spurned/irritated/distrustful/dismissive, tinged with general dislike
posted by i used to be someone else at 2:54 PM on September 9 [5 favorites]
since we're talking about gender, i think it might be interesting to note the difference in how men seem to treat women with "cheat codes" (e.g., "veteran", "masc-coded interests", "one of the boys") and women with "a little extra", because there's a lot of very specific... hate/"general dislike" around that bit of gender peformance/sex; a whole lot of hate before: "stop being such a girl" and a whole lot of hate after: "you'll always be a man"
and factoring in how a lot of men seem to prefer men to women, well, i suppose that also explains why the most toxic men seem to be the ugliest and most persistent of chasers
posted by i used to be someone else at 3:03 PM on September 9 [6 favorites]
and factoring in how a lot of men seem to prefer men to women, well, i suppose that also explains why the most toxic men seem to be the ugliest and most persistent of chasers
posted by i used to be someone else at 3:03 PM on September 9 [6 favorites]
and, i feel like a lot of the discussion here fits, memetically, with r/AreTheStraightsOK
posted by i used to be someone else at 3:12 PM on September 9 [3 favorites]
posted by i used to be someone else at 3:12 PM on September 9 [3 favorites]
but do you? like the way you're talking about women in that comment and subsequent ones come across as, i dunno, a little annoyed/spurned/irritated/distrustful/dismissive, tinged with general dislike
I don't have the hubris to claim I don't have any prejudices, and may certainly lack awareness of my own micro-agressions. Fully aware that I'll plow right into defensiveness pretty easily, though. That's a foible that I don't always catch early enough, like in this thread.
Cheers
posted by Chuffy at 4:16 PM on September 9 [1 favorite]
I don't have the hubris to claim I don't have any prejudices, and may certainly lack awareness of my own micro-agressions. Fully aware that I'll plow right into defensiveness pretty easily, though. That's a foible that I don't always catch early enough, like in this thread.
Cheers
posted by Chuffy at 4:16 PM on September 9 [1 favorite]
I had a committee member in grad school who on paper should have been a great mentor to me--his specialty overlapped with my interests in an interesting way, we both enjoy dipping our feet into the social science/policy side of our field, etc., and yet I struggled for 6 years to even get him to meet with me. 4 years after I graduated, one of his former advisees said off-hand, "Oh yeah, he doesn't work well with women." This was after the guy had just moved from a tenured position at one extremely prestigious institution to a tenured position at another extremely prestigious institution. At both places, he was expected to mentor grad students and post-docs many of whom, you know, just happen to be women. Nobody but me seemed to think that "doesn't work well with women" should be a disqualifying characteristic for holding such a position.
Can you even imagine a faculty member being able to get a job if "she just doesn't work well with men"? In a world where most faculty are still men, let alone university presidents and provosts?
posted by hydropsyche at 4:46 PM on September 9 [21 favorites]
Can you even imagine a faculty member being able to get a job if "she just doesn't work well with men"? In a world where most faculty are still men, let alone university presidents and provosts?
posted by hydropsyche at 4:46 PM on September 9 [21 favorites]
All of this is sad. But please try to speak up. Because otherwise, it's being complicit in misogyny, not to accuse you or try to be mean to you in any way, this stuff is hard. But silence is agreement.
Fair comment. I mis-spoke to some extent there, in that I don't do that any more. Mostly because I no longer associate with men who act like that, except on rare ocassions, but also because I'm less concerned with what people think of me that when I was younger. I don't stay silent about any form of 'othering' these days.
I certainly wasn't intending to elicit any form of sympathy or anything like that, just musing on my experiences in the past. I don't really give a flying fuck about whether any misogynist 'warms to me', or anyone else for that matter. Sorry for giving a false impression.
posted by dg at 5:05 PM on September 9 [1 favorite]
Fair comment. I mis-spoke to some extent there, in that I don't do that any more. Mostly because I no longer associate with men who act like that, except on rare ocassions, but also because I'm less concerned with what people think of me that when I was younger. I don't stay silent about any form of 'othering' these days.
I certainly wasn't intending to elicit any form of sympathy or anything like that, just musing on my experiences in the past. I don't really give a flying fuck about whether any misogynist 'warms to me', or anyone else for that matter. Sorry for giving a false impression.
posted by dg at 5:05 PM on September 9 [1 favorite]
Honestly, men by and large are kind of stinky, messy, loud, unsophisticated, glorify violence (movies especially) and have generally boring interests like sports or video games.
Most men are boring, frankly...Men wear boring clothes, most have what I consider to be pretty boring interests or don't have any interests, some have little or nothing to say
I end up in the kitchen talking to the women. They're far more interesting than the men, who are decent people but to me crashingly dull because I have no opinions on craft beer or what they've read on some indie hipster music site. They're not misogynists, they don't talk about golf or college football, none of them would vote for Golden Toilet... they're just not very interesting to me...[women are] just more interesting, on the whole.
In my ongoing search for other middle-aged cis guys to be friends with, it’s always excited to meet one who’s as interesting and engaging as the average woman
We really don't need to do this. The men who don't like women, don't not-like them because they think women are uninteresting. They don't like them because they've been socialized since a young age to not like them, because women/girls are still viewed as less than men/boys.
And I do feel that girls (at least used to) get the same socialization in the opposite direction - to dislike boys/men and male-coded things. But since the 90s have been encouraged to have all interests, so now girls are allowed to like way more things than boys.
And we don't need to put women on a pedestal by claiming they're just more interesting. They can be just as boring as men, dress just as boring, have boring interests.
posted by LizBoBiz at 5:31 PM on September 9 [16 favorites]
Most men are boring, frankly...Men wear boring clothes, most have what I consider to be pretty boring interests or don't have any interests, some have little or nothing to say
I end up in the kitchen talking to the women. They're far more interesting than the men, who are decent people but to me crashingly dull because I have no opinions on craft beer or what they've read on some indie hipster music site. They're not misogynists, they don't talk about golf or college football, none of them would vote for Golden Toilet... they're just not very interesting to me...[women are] just more interesting, on the whole.
In my ongoing search for other middle-aged cis guys to be friends with, it’s always excited to meet one who’s as interesting and engaging as the average woman
We really don't need to do this. The men who don't like women, don't not-like them because they think women are uninteresting. They don't like them because they've been socialized since a young age to not like them, because women/girls are still viewed as less than men/boys.
And I do feel that girls (at least used to) get the same socialization in the opposite direction - to dislike boys/men and male-coded things. But since the 90s have been encouraged to have all interests, so now girls are allowed to like way more things than boys.
And we don't need to put women on a pedestal by claiming they're just more interesting. They can be just as boring as men, dress just as boring, have boring interests.
posted by LizBoBiz at 5:31 PM on September 9 [16 favorites]
So I am always interested to know why men think they don’t like women, but I’m going to be honest and say that my questioning is going to be very CBT adjacent: checking if those are actually the reasons, and asking followup questions.
If someone says, as someone hinted up thread, “I don’t like women because they weaponize their sexuality”, I’m going to ask the followup questions of “what makes you think they do that? Do they do that more than men? What evidence do you have for that proposition?”
posted by corb at 7:45 PM on September 9
If someone says, as someone hinted up thread, “I don’t like women because they weaponize their sexuality”, I’m going to ask the followup questions of “what makes you think they do that? Do they do that more than men? What evidence do you have for that proposition?”
posted by corb at 7:45 PM on September 9
If any of ya’ll would appreciate more specific examples of what microaggressions the women/femme folk in this thread are generally talking about, head to TikTok and search for “He doesn’t like you, sis.”
posted by edithkeeler at 7:47 PM on September 9 [2 favorites]
posted by edithkeeler at 7:47 PM on September 9 [2 favorites]
For anyone else who might be wondering, please rest assured that damn near every girl is bombarded, from birth, with advice for becoming
Plenty are so damaged by this double-bind that they fall into Pick-Me! desperation and Not Like Other Girls™️ apologia. They remain very much “open to understanding” what it is we have all, as a class, done to deserve eternal contempt. Tradwife influencers are making a pretty penny these days, selling internalized contempt right back to those who reek of it. Given the market value of a rage-boner in a YouTube comment section, I’m sure any insights about our collective repugnance will be all too welcome there.
I’ve seen what a gal can catch with that bait. I am not “open.”
I have been blessed with a number of male relatives, friends, colleagues, mentors, and even a spouse who have ably proven that this contempt, however eternal, is neither inherent nor universal. They don’t typically expect to be congratulated for their tolerance.
Those are the kind of men I care to understand.
posted by armeowda at 9:44 PM on September 9 [13 favorites]
- smaller, weaker, and academically/professionally unambitious, but also magically 0% needy;
- virginally pure but also sexually accommodating without complaint;
- forever young and fully (cis-ly) fertile, but also unblemished by menstruation and the minimum body fat ratio necessary to support it;
- drop-dead gorgeous but also “low maintenance”;
- and a host of other impossible contradictions,
Plenty are so damaged by this double-bind that they fall into Pick-Me! desperation and Not Like Other Girls™️ apologia. They remain very much “open to understanding” what it is we have all, as a class, done to deserve eternal contempt. Tradwife influencers are making a pretty penny these days, selling internalized contempt right back to those who reek of it. Given the market value of a rage-boner in a YouTube comment section, I’m sure any insights about our collective repugnance will be all too welcome there.
I’ve seen what a gal can catch with that bait. I am not “open.”
I have been blessed with a number of male relatives, friends, colleagues, mentors, and even a spouse who have ably proven that this contempt, however eternal, is neither inherent nor universal. They don’t typically expect to be congratulated for their tolerance.
Those are the kind of men I care to understand.
posted by armeowda at 9:44 PM on September 9 [13 favorites]
Mod note: Several deleted (sorry for any resultant thread weirdness): Disrupting and derailing with, basically, "Why aren't we instead asking about women who don't like men?," "Why does this even matter? How is it useful?," and "Why not instead ask why women THINK men dislike them, why not ask what women are doing that make men dislike them?" (There are SO many studies and statistics out there that can possibly aid with some of this helpless confusion, we probably don't need to completely derail into a skeptical interrogation of the premise here.)
posted by taz (staff) at 12:28 AM on September 10 [13 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 12:28 AM on September 10 [13 favorites]
What's interesting to me is this article even happening now, so late in 2024. This is common knowledge amongst many women. I've long said to my husband, about a guy we've just met in a group, yeah....he doesn't like women. Because you can see when a man doesn't even look at you. Doesn't acknowledge you are speaking. Only talks to dudes in the room. Meets you in a perfunctory way, oh, you're that dude's wife. Ignore. Even when a better man tries to include you, they have disinterest. And those are the benign haters!
Men have no idea how much we encounter this. It's maddening, it's insane, it's rude, it's frankly pathetic.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:55 AM on September 10 [11 favorites]
Men have no idea how much we encounter this. It's maddening, it's insane, it's rude, it's frankly pathetic.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:55 AM on September 10 [11 favorites]
It resonated with me because of the movie actor angle. I couldn’t tell this guy that the article about from adam, but Tom cruise? Tom Cruise does not play characters that like women. He plays characters that achieve women. That’s not about the everyday interactions that I encounter. That’s about twigging to something fundamental about action movies that I genuinely hadn’t noticed. It bugs the hell out of me when movies treat women as trophies but somehow I had never stopped to connect that to the ineffable feeling about the star in question. Tom hanks? Yes. Dwayne Johnson? I literally can’t tell because his acting is so bad he doesn’t project genuine emotions. He was pretty genuine with his daughter-characters so I’ll give him ‘likes girls’ (which is not the same) (and not creepy). Kevin Hart? Probably not. Adam Sandler? Nope. And I love adam Sandler. Harrison Ford? Maybe? Seth McFarlane definitely not. Will Ferrell? Yes.
posted by bq at 8:28 AM on September 10
posted by bq at 8:28 AM on September 10
This was after the guy had just moved from a tenured position at one extremely prestigious institution to a tenured position at another extremely prestigious institution. At both places, he was expected to mentor grad students and post-docs many of whom, you know, just happen to be women. Nobody but me seemed to think that "doesn't work well with women" should be a disqualifying characteristic for holding such a position.
Once upon a time, there was a twitter bot that reported panel gender percentages for a series of conferences in my field, and always included a comparison to base rates in the field.
I'd love to see more metrics like that developed. For instance, I've just had to list my citation rates for my pubs for an internal thing (IYKYK), and we know that these are gender biased. I'd love if there were some sort of correction factor, especially for my papers where both first and last authors were female. One article I saw said F/F were penalized as much as 30%, at least by men authors.
On CVs in job applications I'd love to see reports of percentages in at least gender if not race in the mentorship lists. I've definitely seen some CVs that produced a lovely list of all-male mentees, or all very-white-sounding names; comparing to the base rates of grad students could be truly enlightening.
posted by Dashy at 9:09 AM on September 10 [5 favorites]
Once upon a time, there was a twitter bot that reported panel gender percentages for a series of conferences in my field, and always included a comparison to base rates in the field.
I'd love to see more metrics like that developed. For instance, I've just had to list my citation rates for my pubs for an internal thing (IYKYK), and we know that these are gender biased. I'd love if there were some sort of correction factor, especially for my papers where both first and last authors were female. One article I saw said F/F were penalized as much as 30%, at least by men authors.
On CVs in job applications I'd love to see reports of percentages in at least gender if not race in the mentorship lists. I've definitely seen some CVs that produced a lovely list of all-male mentees, or all very-white-sounding names; comparing to the base rates of grad students could be truly enlightening.
posted by Dashy at 9:09 AM on September 10 [5 favorites]
This article reminds me of the spirit of the Dykes to Watch Out For comic that inspired the Bechdel Test which was "I wanna watch a movie that's got this…"
So thanks to everbody suggesting actors who seem to enjoy women. I'd love to see additional suggestions. Because this article made me actually want to watch Twisters.
posted by straight at 9:11 AM on September 10 [1 favorite]
So thanks to everbody suggesting actors who seem to enjoy women. I'd love to see additional suggestions. Because this article made me actually want to watch Twisters.
posted by straight at 9:11 AM on September 10 [1 favorite]
this pair of articles and the thread really bummed me out, and i've been trying to articulate why.
part of it is the elephant in the room that no one is really addressing, though a few people are talking around it--there are guys who can very convincingly project the image of "liking women" while being monsters behind closed doors. it's not a thing that women can "always tell". it's not difficult to imagine a version of the paragraph from a few years ago with casey affleck, or louis ck, or, as someone's already mentioned, james deen.
and then there are other guys who do like women--unless the women are trans. or until the women grow old. or any other of a million other conditionals. (i'm sure some people are ready to object that that's not really liking women--i've been the person making that objection before--but my point here isn't about definitions; it's about that there are a million things that intersect with "women" as a class, and that misogyny is very rarely an on/off dichotomy.)
i dunno. i think my problem is that it's been over a decade of doing this feminist ryan gosling dot tumblr dot com kind of thing, this "yes, this NAMES the problem" thing and we never seem to move forward, really.
posted by Why Is The World In Love Again? at 2:58 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]
part of it is the elephant in the room that no one is really addressing, though a few people are talking around it--there are guys who can very convincingly project the image of "liking women" while being monsters behind closed doors. it's not a thing that women can "always tell". it's not difficult to imagine a version of the paragraph from a few years ago with casey affleck, or louis ck, or, as someone's already mentioned, james deen.
and then there are other guys who do like women--unless the women are trans. or until the women grow old. or any other of a million other conditionals. (i'm sure some people are ready to object that that's not really liking women--i've been the person making that objection before--but my point here isn't about definitions; it's about that there are a million things that intersect with "women" as a class, and that misogyny is very rarely an on/off dichotomy.)
i dunno. i think my problem is that it's been over a decade of doing this feminist ryan gosling dot tumblr dot com kind of thing, this "yes, this NAMES the problem" thing and we never seem to move forward, really.
posted by Why Is The World In Love Again? at 2:58 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]
Yeah. A large part of that though is that cis men often don’t notice when their buddies are being misogynistic, and don’t create the social pressure necessary for change. And part of that is lots of not-terrible men thinking that sexism and misogyny are big giant dramatic things and of course they wouldn’t be friends with a total monster and blah blah etc., when it’s all the cumulative little just not liking women or treating them with respect that builds the foundation that enables the stuff they think of as monstrous, and also, like, of course their buddy who is a manager somewhere who will never promote a woman seems fine to them, because he is treating them with respect, which bleeds into their rapist buddy who they just can’t believe he would do that…. Basically, cis men need to start noticing this shit in other men. And whatever articles are going to get through to them are going to be at a level that seems overly simplistic and basic to me, but they aren’t for me and that’s the point. (I don’t know that the articles in the fpp are aimed at men either, but they did seem to get some positive responses from men early in the thread who could take what they were saying and look at other men they knew and apply it, like “oh yeah, I guess my buddy Joe Schmoe really just doesn’t like women. Huh, that’s actually a problem and not some amusing quirk, isn’t it?”, at least.)
posted by eviemath at 3:21 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 3:21 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]
Cishet men also tangibly benefit from “not noticing” their friends being misogynists.
posted by edithkeeler at 3:48 AM on September 11 [5 favorites]
posted by edithkeeler at 3:48 AM on September 11 [5 favorites]
If you read, even a little, about the things Tom Cruise's exes have said about him, you're probably not going to want to leap to his defense. Descriptions of him IRL are that he is charming, but culty and controlling. To pick just one thing, to date him, a woman basically has to be recruited for the task or at the very least, vetted by the Church for Scientology. Extensive rules and conditions then apply.
I mean, if you'd rather go with benefit of the doubt, okay, but I will remind you that the number of times a rich and famous man was widely said to be a problematic person and that turned out not to be the case is somewhere between zero and pitifully small.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:39 AM on September 11 [6 favorites]
I mean, if you'd rather go with benefit of the doubt, okay, but I will remind you that the number of times a rich and famous man was widely said to be a problematic person and that turned out not to be the case is somewhere between zero and pitifully small.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:39 AM on September 11 [6 favorites]
I don't think it's fair to compare Glenn Powell to actors with 40 years of time on him - give him time to become good or bad on the same scale.
Not only that but there seems to a massive PR push going on for this guy.
posted by srboisvert at 9:09 AM on September 12
Not only that but there seems to a massive PR push going on for this guy.
posted by srboisvert at 9:09 AM on September 12
Well, starring in three big movies in one year after a decade or so of smaller parts will do that for you, I guess.
posted by mediareport at 9:33 AM on September 12
posted by mediareport at 9:33 AM on September 12
(Hell, not even a year - Anyone But You, Twisters and Hitman were all released within 7 months of each other. The first two had wide theatrical releases that overperformed box office expectations by huge margins and the one released mostly on Netflix is at 95/91 on RT. Sure, the marketing that sent Anyone But You into the stratosphere was manipulative, but the cheesy hints at a real romance between the stars gave the romcom fans what they wanted and worked like a charm, and Sydney Sweeney apparently put in a ton of effort to help the film take off online.)
posted by mediareport at 9:56 AM on September 12
posted by mediareport at 9:56 AM on September 12
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posted by lalochezia at 7:33 AM on September 7 [7 favorites]