Scientist carbon dates his own kidney stone to find out when it formed
September 7, 2024 7:43 AM Subscribe
"Please save it for me": Scientist carbon dates his own kidney stone to find out when it formed. Kidney stones are an annoying, painful condition that affects many of us, but it's not easy to tell when they form. A scientist who carbon dates objects for a living decided to work out the age of his kidney stone.
Kind of beautiful, though.
posted by pattern juggler at 8:23 AM on September 7 [2 favorites]
posted by pattern juggler at 8:23 AM on September 7 [2 favorites]
omg that image is utterly horrifying.
posted by supermedusa at 8:28 AM on September 7 [3 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 8:28 AM on September 7 [3 favorites]
And while specimens under 60,000 years old can be dated down to a few hundred or thousand year time frame, specimens after 1950 — such as Dr Levchenko's kidney stones — can be dated much more accurately.posted by trig at 8:37 AM on September 7 [14 favorites]
That's because of something called the "bomb pulse" — when carbon-14 in the atmosphere doubled as a result of nuclear bomb tests in the 50s and 60s.
This increase in carbon-14 allows researchers to date samples precisely, sometimes all the way down to the month.
Being able to use this bomb pulse to accurately date samples will only last until about 2030, when carbon-14 levels return to baseline.
EIGHTY MILLIMETERS?! I am SCREAMING. Mine was only 5 and it laid me out real damn good.
posted by humbug at 8:40 AM on September 7 [1 favorite]
posted by humbug at 8:40 AM on September 7 [1 favorite]
It reminds me of the episode of Friends where Phoebe has a baby and Joey has a kidney stone.
posted by credulous at 8:49 AM on September 7 [1 favorite]
posted by credulous at 8:49 AM on September 7 [1 favorite]
Carbon dating is so interesting. That it took anywhere from 7 to 23 years to grow the samples they tested is wild.
While the journal article is paywalled I was able to find it after a quick search...
Another article that talks about time history of a few stones that includes the same author is available here.
Going to go drink a big glass of water and read through those now.
posted by Quack at 9:07 AM on September 7 [2 favorites]
While the journal article is paywalled I was able to find it after a quick search...
Another article that talks about time history of a few stones that includes the same author is available here.
Going to go drink a big glass of water and read through those now.
posted by Quack at 9:07 AM on September 7 [2 favorites]
Mine was only 5 and it laid me out real damn good
The only upside of an 80mm stone is that it's not likely even to begin to make its way down your ureter. It's just going to stay put inside your kidney and make that hurt. A 5mm stone, though, wants out and once that's got started there's really no stopping it until it gets its way.
I have what last year's ultrasound scan said was a 20mm gallstone and I've decided not to have my gall bladder removed for that, for much the same reason: there's no risk that it's going to clog my bile duct because it's too big to escape from the gall bladder in the first place, and the ultrasound didn't show any gravelly little companions that might. So for as long as my stone is content to stay parked quietly back in the fundus where the ultrasound saw it, I don't mind hosting it.
I've also worked out how to twist myself up and position myself on the floor so as to encourage it back into place whenever it does give me a twinge, and so far I've only had to do that four times so it's cost me less time than surgery would have. Even those twinges hurt like hell, though. So those of you who have had lumpy little rocks shoved through your internal plumbing have all my sympathy.
posted by flabdablet at 9:33 AM on September 7 [8 favorites]
The only upside of an 80mm stone is that it's not likely even to begin to make its way down your ureter. It's just going to stay put inside your kidney and make that hurt. A 5mm stone, though, wants out and once that's got started there's really no stopping it until it gets its way.
I have what last year's ultrasound scan said was a 20mm gallstone and I've decided not to have my gall bladder removed for that, for much the same reason: there's no risk that it's going to clog my bile duct because it's too big to escape from the gall bladder in the first place, and the ultrasound didn't show any gravelly little companions that might. So for as long as my stone is content to stay parked quietly back in the fundus where the ultrasound saw it, I don't mind hosting it.
I've also worked out how to twist myself up and position myself on the floor so as to encourage it back into place whenever it does give me a twinge, and so far I've only had to do that four times so it's cost me less time than surgery would have. Even those twinges hurt like hell, though. So those of you who have had lumpy little rocks shoved through your internal plumbing have all my sympathy.
posted by flabdablet at 9:33 AM on September 7 [8 favorites]
Fascinating article, thanks for posting
posted by Gorgik at 9:56 AM on September 7 [1 favorite]
posted by Gorgik at 9:56 AM on September 7 [1 favorite]
So for as long as my stone is content to stay parked quietly back in the fundus where the ultrasound saw it, I don't mind hosting it.
My first encounter with my gallstone years ago was agonising pain that just came out of nowhere one evening and came in waves. While waiting for my GP appointment, it became so strong I literally couldn't walk even with codeine, so called an ambulance.
They couldn't see much on ultrasound next day, and I was going downhill fast with some kind of infection so they booked me in for urgent surgery, and it turned out it had ruptured the gallbladder, gone very septic and also caused peritonitis, so they had to go from laprascopic to opening me up like a kipper to clean it all out and rebuild the duct, along with horse doses of antibiotics. I still get twinges there from the presumed internal scarring when I sit down wrong, but it's faded over the years. Fun times!
That 80mm stone is terrifying, that's most of the length of a normal kidney! (100-130mm) Not that trying to pass a small one via plumbing that it doesn't fit down sounds much better. Fascinating that they can build up in a couple of years, or slowly for decades. BRB, going to drink some water.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 10:27 AM on September 7 [8 favorites]
My first encounter with my gallstone years ago was agonising pain that just came out of nowhere one evening and came in waves. While waiting for my GP appointment, it became so strong I literally couldn't walk even with codeine, so called an ambulance.
They couldn't see much on ultrasound next day, and I was going downhill fast with some kind of infection so they booked me in for urgent surgery, and it turned out it had ruptured the gallbladder, gone very septic and also caused peritonitis, so they had to go from laprascopic to opening me up like a kipper to clean it all out and rebuild the duct, along with horse doses of antibiotics. I still get twinges there from the presumed internal scarring when I sit down wrong, but it's faded over the years. Fun times!
That 80mm stone is terrifying, that's most of the length of a normal kidney! (100-130mm) Not that trying to pass a small one via plumbing that it doesn't fit down sounds much better. Fascinating that they can build up in a couple of years, or slowly for decades. BRB, going to drink some water.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 10:27 AM on September 7 [8 favorites]
Bomb-Pulse C14 dating is one of those things that manages to be amazingly cool and utterly horrifying at the same time. Yes, in the space of a few years we let off, in our atmosphere, enough hydrogen bombs of sufficient size that we transmuted a measurable amount of the atmosphere's nitrogen into radioactive carbon. As a result of this, C14 dating, which normally works with reasonable accuracy to date items from a few hundred to some tens of thousands of years old, can be extraordinarily precise in dating biologically-formed material arising from the 1950s onwards.
posted by Major Clanger at 10:35 AM on September 7 [5 favorites]
posted by Major Clanger at 10:35 AM on September 7 [5 favorites]
I hadn't realized "being able to use this bomb pulse to accurately date samples will only last until about 2030, when carbon-14 levels return to baseline." I assume no one's pushing to...renew our atomic subscription before then, for the sake of forensic science?
(Also, for anyone who might click into the article just to see the picture the first few comments here were discussing: it's not the first image; it's the oh-my-god-how-could-such-a-thing-exist-in-this-world second one.)
posted by nobody at 10:55 AM on September 7 [1 favorite]
(Also, for anyone who might click into the article just to see the picture the first few comments here were discussing: it's not the first image; it's the oh-my-god-how-could-such-a-thing-exist-in-this-world second one.)
posted by nobody at 10:55 AM on September 7 [1 favorite]
From 1945-1998, more than 2000 nuclear bombs were detonated.
posted by jamjam at 11:04 AM on September 7 [2 favorites]
posted by jamjam at 11:04 AM on September 7 [2 favorites]
Hear me out…
We should blow up a nuclear bomb, seeded with a particular mix of isotopes, in the atmosphere every quarter of every year until we run out of nuclear bombs.
Why quarterly? For the benefit of future archeoaccountants.
posted by Dr. Curare at 11:24 AM on September 7 [3 favorites]
We should blow up a nuclear bomb, seeded with a particular mix of isotopes, in the atmosphere every quarter of every year until we run out of nuclear bombs.
Why quarterly? For the benefit of future archeoaccountants.
posted by Dr. Curare at 11:24 AM on September 7 [3 favorites]
I'm in the 'while uncomfortable to think of this happening to me, this is pretty cool stuff they did' camp.
Thanks for sharing
posted by JoeXIII007 at 11:27 AM on September 7 [3 favorites]
Thanks for sharing
posted by JoeXIII007 at 11:27 AM on September 7 [3 favorites]
Being able to use this bomb pulse to accurately date samples will only last until about 2030
I have been working on a passion/art project (a gift for a woman I adore) which involves some really fun isotopes produced at Oak Ridge National Lab in the High Flux Isotope Reactor. Our ability to precisely manufacture these incredibly special nuclear species is unsurpassed in the world (only Russia rivals us, and their reactors suck). C-14 has an extraordinarily long half life and is pretty safe as far as radionuclides go, but I love the idea of regularly dispersing pulsed mixtures of isotopes for different time periods and applications. What a great way to establish a global clock frequency!
Brb, off to stockpile pigments and store them in a lead-lined shipping container. For non art forgery reasons, of course.
posted by 1024 at 12:07 PM on September 7 [10 favorites]
I have been working on a passion/art project (a gift for a woman I adore) which involves some really fun isotopes produced at Oak Ridge National Lab in the High Flux Isotope Reactor. Our ability to precisely manufacture these incredibly special nuclear species is unsurpassed in the world (only Russia rivals us, and their reactors suck). C-14 has an extraordinarily long half life and is pretty safe as far as radionuclides go, but I love the idea of regularly dispersing pulsed mixtures of isotopes for different time periods and applications. What a great way to establish a global clock frequency!
Brb, off to stockpile pigments and store them in a lead-lined shipping container. For non art forgery reasons, of course.
posted by 1024 at 12:07 PM on September 7 [10 favorites]
I should add, I am not okay with using bombs to transmute atmosphere into C-14, even if it would be cheaper. For reasons that are incredibly real and important to me, I abhor fission in all forms. Seriously, do not split atoms. Like, what do dipshits think "atomic" means?!
If we want a global clock frequency, we can pay for it. Neutron bombardment is currently expensive, if we want it to be cheaper we can make that choice.
posted by 1024 at 12:20 PM on September 7 [5 favorites]
If we want a global clock frequency, we can pay for it. Neutron bombardment is currently expensive, if we want it to be cheaper we can make that choice.
posted by 1024 at 12:20 PM on September 7 [5 favorites]
Come for the kidney stones, stay for the neutron bombardment.
posted by trig at 12:25 PM on September 7 [10 favorites]
posted by trig at 12:25 PM on September 7 [10 favorites]
ahah, bringing it back to the stones...
There is no soul I have encountered who has shown me quite so much sustained, unconditional love as the 5lb Maltese rescue who has been with me since college, ~17 years ago. Malteses are notorious for having problems with kidney stones, and when she started living with me, I prayed that wouldn't be an issue for her.
It seems I have been blessed with the most well-hydrated pooch I have ever encountered. These days she is rather incontinent, and I refuse to force her to spend her golden years with an anxiety relationship to her own bodily functions. I spend a lot of time with a mop these days, and I wouldn't change a thing.
posted by 1024 at 12:42 PM on September 7 [8 favorites]
There is no soul I have encountered who has shown me quite so much sustained, unconditional love as the 5lb Maltese rescue who has been with me since college, ~17 years ago. Malteses are notorious for having problems with kidney stones, and when she started living with me, I prayed that wouldn't be an issue for her.
It seems I have been blessed with the most well-hydrated pooch I have ever encountered. These days she is rather incontinent, and I refuse to force her to spend her golden years with an anxiety relationship to her own bodily functions. I spend a lot of time with a mop these days, and I wouldn't change a thing.
posted by 1024 at 12:42 PM on September 7 [8 favorites]
Come for the kidney stones, stay for the neutron bombardment
It ain't quite neutron bombardment, but the lithotripter (which literally smashes kidney stones into little bits using nothing but focused acoustic shock waves) is still a hell of a machine.
posted by flabdablet at 1:06 PM on September 7 [7 favorites]
It ain't quite neutron bombardment, but the lithotripter (which literally smashes kidney stones into little bits using nothing but focused acoustic shock waves) is still a hell of a machine.
posted by flabdablet at 1:06 PM on September 7 [7 favorites]
If you are up for more photos (and i agree that photo is disgusting), this is a Link to an article of a collection of body stones at the Pathologisch-anatomischen Sammlung im "Narrenturm"-NHM Wien. in German.
And here a link to an artproject by Kathrin Hornek, involving body stones collected by Professor Richard Tessardi of the university of Innsbruck.
posted by 15L06 at 1:49 PM on September 7 [2 favorites]
And here a link to an artproject by Kathrin Hornek, involving body stones collected by Professor Richard Tessardi of the university of Innsbruck.
posted by 15L06 at 1:49 PM on September 7 [2 favorites]
We should blow up a nuclear bomb, seeded with a particular mix of isotopes, in the atmosphere every quarter of every year until we run out of nuclear bombs.
We could even auction the placement to different mining companies while we're at it. Just think of the ores we could expose with a singular nuclear blast.
posted by ockmockbock at 2:08 PM on September 7
We could even auction the placement to different mining companies while we're at it. Just think of the ores we could expose with a singular nuclear blast.
posted by ockmockbock at 2:08 PM on September 7
Had a 20 mm stone broken up by the lithotriptor last month. I asked if I would be awake during the procedure. Doc said you do not want to be awake when we suck the fragments out of you through your penis.
posted by Czjewel at 2:10 PM on September 7 [11 favorites]
posted by Czjewel at 2:10 PM on September 7 [11 favorites]
Sooo..I've been (kinda mostly) following the internet's advice not to feed high calcium veggies such as kale or high-oxalate veggies such as spinach to my guinea pigs, because these are supposed to give them kidney stones. This article says this advice is disproven for humans?
posted by polecat at 2:16 PM on September 7 [1 favorite]
posted by polecat at 2:16 PM on September 7 [1 favorite]
My dad had a few painful stones, one of which required an ambulance ride. I've had a couple, but were tiny; for the worst I walked into an Urgent Care facility, they took a picture - it was on its way out. They gave me a shot of oxycodone (... and I now understand why it's addictive), and I went home.
But my little brother has been plagued with BIG ones for at least the last decade. About twice a year, they catheterized him, broke up the stones with ultrasound and tried to drain out as much as they could. And he usually gets an infection as a parting gift. Last year, they opted to operate instead to remove one megalith. They apparently haven't given him a diagnosis and a preventative treatment, but he's half a continent away so I'm not in the loop there. Poor guy.
posted by Artful Codger at 2:23 PM on September 7 [1 favorite]
But my little brother has been plagued with BIG ones for at least the last decade. About twice a year, they catheterized him, broke up the stones with ultrasound and tried to drain out as much as they could. And he usually gets an infection as a parting gift. Last year, they opted to operate instead to remove one megalith. They apparently haven't given him a diagnosis and a preventative treatment, but he's half a continent away so I'm not in the loop there. Poor guy.
posted by Artful Codger at 2:23 PM on September 7 [1 favorite]
I have what last year's ultrasound scan said was a 20mm gallstone and I've decided not to have my gall bladder removed for that, for much the same reason: there's no risk that it's going to clog my bile duct because it's too big to escape from the gall bladder in the first place, and the ultrasound didn't show any gravelly little companions that might. So for as long as my stone is content to stay parked quietly back in the fundus where the ultrasound saw it, I don't mind hosting it.
flabdablet: be aware that this will work right up until it doesn't. (I also had a gallstone that was too big to leave my gallbladder; they found it when it got big enough to fully block the opening of my bile duct instead, at which point i was suddenly in the second-worst pain of my entire life for at least 8 hours every day. At that point, i had to have a cholecystectomy.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:26 PM on September 7 [5 favorites]
flabdablet: be aware that this will work right up until it doesn't. (I also had a gallstone that was too big to leave my gallbladder; they found it when it got big enough to fully block the opening of my bile duct instead, at which point i was suddenly in the second-worst pain of my entire life for at least 8 hours every day. At that point, i had to have a cholecystectomy.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:26 PM on September 7 [5 favorites]
But my little brother has been plagued with BIG ones for at least the last decade. […]They apparently haven't given him a diagnosis and a preventative treatment, but he's half a continent away so I'm not in the loop there. Poor guy.
He might want to be evaluated for liver issues, because kidney stones are associated with chronic liver disease.
posted by jamjam at 2:45 PM on September 7 [1 favorite]
He might want to be evaluated for liver issues, because kidney stones are associated with chronic liver disease.
posted by jamjam at 2:45 PM on September 7 [1 favorite]
Just think of the ores we could expose with a singular nuclear blast.
No fission! If I catch any mofo trying to split an atom, I will split U like 2 and 3 from 5.
posted by 1024 at 3:53 PM on September 7 [3 favorites]
No fission! If I catch any mofo trying to split an atom, I will split U like 2 and 3 from 5.
posted by 1024 at 3:53 PM on September 7 [3 favorites]
It ain't quite neutron bombardment, but the lithotripter (which literally smashes kidney stones into little bits using nothing but focused acoustic shock waves) is still a hell of a machine.
After my kidney stone attack in Nov 2023 sent me to the ER and my blood pressure was a yikes high of 220 over something I decided to just fuck-it and buy myself a brand new camera, OM Systems (formerly Olympus) OM-1 flagship and zoom lens, because I felt like I had almost died and should stop waiting to do things because the future might not happen. 6.5mm partway down my ureter. Never moved again after that. So in late January then I had kidney stone surgery which involved a scope camera shoved up my penis followed by a laser that blasted my stone to dust (while shredding my ureter and urethra and nicking my prostate - on the scope's way in I assume). The camera was Olympus. Then two months after that I had a colonoscopy and that camera was also Olympus.
In short I am all in on Olympus and Olympus is all in me.
Also my doctor said they wouldn't analyze the stone until my second one. So if a stone comes around again I am going to a different urologist.
This is really interesting to me because I had no idea about possible time scales of kidney stone development.
posted by srboisvert at 4:06 PM on September 7 [9 favorites]
After my kidney stone attack in Nov 2023 sent me to the ER and my blood pressure was a yikes high of 220 over something I decided to just fuck-it and buy myself a brand new camera, OM Systems (formerly Olympus) OM-1 flagship and zoom lens, because I felt like I had almost died and should stop waiting to do things because the future might not happen. 6.5mm partway down my ureter. Never moved again after that. So in late January then I had kidney stone surgery which involved a scope camera shoved up my penis followed by a laser that blasted my stone to dust (while shredding my ureter and urethra and nicking my prostate - on the scope's way in I assume). The camera was Olympus. Then two months after that I had a colonoscopy and that camera was also Olympus.
In short I am all in on Olympus and Olympus is all in me.
Also my doctor said they wouldn't analyze the stone until my second one. So if a stone comes around again I am going to a different urologist.
This is really interesting to me because I had no idea about possible time scales of kidney stone development.
posted by srboisvert at 4:06 PM on September 7 [9 favorites]
He might want to be evaluated for liver issues, because kidney stones are associated with chronic liver disease.
Only sort of. From your link study it is just short of double the risk:
So something to ask about but maybe not worry about. 50% of people with kidney stones will have more than one. The article doesn't say it but you can also grow more than one a time. So if your stone formation is triggered by long term diet issues it is quite likely that you will have a horrible internal snowpiercer train of kidney stones to deal with before any diet modifications can help you avoid the future stones. I hate this having had a horrible kidney stone but it is what it is.
posted by srboisvert at 4:39 PM on September 7 [3 favorites]
Only sort of. From your link study it is just short of double the risk:
The self-reported prevalence of nephrolithiasis in the liver disease group was 26%, compared to 14% in the control group (P < .01)
So something to ask about but maybe not worry about. 50% of people with kidney stones will have more than one. The article doesn't say it but you can also grow more than one a time. So if your stone formation is triggered by long term diet issues it is quite likely that you will have a horrible internal snowpiercer train of kidney stones to deal with before any diet modifications can help you avoid the future stones. I hate this having had a horrible kidney stone but it is what it is.
posted by srboisvert at 4:39 PM on September 7 [3 favorites]
you will have a horrible internal snowpiercer train of kidney stones to deal with
This is deeply terrifying, on par with learning that when I beat cancer, it meant “for now”
It is also my newest curse
posted by 1024 at 8:35 PM on September 7 [3 favorites]
This is deeply terrifying, on par with learning that when I beat cancer, it meant “for now”
It is also my newest curse
posted by 1024 at 8:35 PM on September 7 [3 favorites]
Okay, that's very cool. I mean, also terrifying and stuff, but cool. And that is a delightful example of "Nerds Gotta Nerd."
posted by rmd1023 at 5:36 AM on September 8 [2 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 5:36 AM on September 8 [2 favorites]
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