I’ve already forgotten the vast majority of my life
October 20, 2024 2:58 PM Subscribe
This had to mean something. I thought about the prophecies of ruined cities in the Bible. Nineveh and Babylon, empty of human life, inhabited only by birds: “The cormorant and the bittern shall lodge in the lintels; their voice shall be at the windows; desolation shall be at the threshold.” Ruined granaries where a few sparrows still peck for the last wedged-in flecks of grain. Most of the people around me walked in silence. Ahead of us, in the distance, the Arc de Triomphe gleamed in the darkness of the city like a pulled molar. I wondered how many of these people were suddenly realizing that they couldn’t actually remember anything that had just happened. How the blaring brightness of fame and the oblivion that’s coming turned out to be exactly the same thing. from Forgetting Taylor Swift by Sam Kriss
I tried, but I eventually just skipped down to the last few paragraphs. This is some highly evolved hating, the kind that betrays a deep understanding (I guess) of the lore of the hated subject, and it is kind of funny but the part that resonates with me is asking why this kind of fan reverence isn't doled upon PJ Harvey or even Lana Del Rey, someone a little more substantial. The idea that what makes Taylor Swift appealing is all the (I'm sorry) blank space that the wispy work allows fans to bring their own stuff to it is...well, actually, that makes a lot of sense, because on its own it's some pretty basic pop music. Devoting this much verbiage to it seems insanely extravagant, and I say that as someone who is, after a week, currently 5% into Robert Caro's The Power Broker.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:35 PM on October 20 [15 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:35 PM on October 20 [15 favorites]
Taylor Swift is a cult leader
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 3:36 PM on October 20 [2 favorites]
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 3:36 PM on October 20 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure if the entire essay is worth it, but this paragraph will live rent-free in my head until I forget it:
The first thing you need to know about Taylor Swift is that she’s a distance predator. She evolved to chase down gazelles on the Serengeti, to run after them for hours until they collapse from sheer exhaustion, at which point Taylor Swift snaps their necks between her jaws and settles down to feed. You can see it in her long, rangy limbs, with which she lopes efficiently up and down the stage. It’s in her forward-pointing eyes. Her sculpted pantherine face. When she smiles you can see the canines gleaming in her mouth, and her eyes squint like a raptor’s. This creature chews down raw meat with her back teeth.posted by brook horse at 3:43 PM on October 20 [16 favorites]
Here is a guy with some real hang-ups about fat people, no doubt with some bullshit comp lit justification which goes over very well in a sort of n-plus-1 milieu where even the chubby people feel they have to laugh along.
posted by Frowner at 3:45 PM on October 20 [19 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 3:45 PM on October 20 [19 favorites]
I spent a lot more time than I’m proud of trying to figure out why I just don’t get Taylor Swift, because plenty of people I love and admire think she’s a generational talent and kind of a genius. And I have a soft-spot for pop music.
Ultimately I realized I was wasting my time. That it was fine not to get things that people I love care deeply about. I mean, I don’t get football or Christianity or the appeal of marshmallows or minimalism or reality television or SuVs or camping or sci-fi either. But that doesn’t mean that those things are bad or inexplicable or that there is something bad or inexplicable about the people that like them. It just means they’re not for me. I dare say many people don’t get as excited about tulle cocktail dresses and dense post-modern novels and drinking gin and tonics while listening to semi-obscure woman fronted post-punk bands on a Sunday evening porch as I do but I won’t judge them for it (porch is open though and the Au Pairs, as always, sound great).
posted by thivaia at 3:49 PM on October 20 [35 favorites]
Ultimately I realized I was wasting my time. That it was fine not to get things that people I love care deeply about. I mean, I don’t get football or Christianity or the appeal of marshmallows or minimalism or reality television or SuVs or camping or sci-fi either. But that doesn’t mean that those things are bad or inexplicable or that there is something bad or inexplicable about the people that like them. It just means they’re not for me. I dare say many people don’t get as excited about tulle cocktail dresses and dense post-modern novels and drinking gin and tonics while listening to semi-obscure woman fronted post-punk bands on a Sunday evening porch as I do but I won’t judge them for it (porch is open though and the Au Pairs, as always, sound great).
posted by thivaia at 3:49 PM on October 20 [35 favorites]
Alex sounds like a Mefite.
The writer sounds like an asshole and isn’t funny enough to make up for it. Like what the actual fuck are you doing, tall dude, pushing your way to the front. The woman who told him no is a hero. Seriously doubt he’ll be trying that kind of assholery at the Oasis reunion.
Speaking of which, editors at The Lamp, send me to the Oasis reunion! I promise I’ll deliver some truly bonkers clickbait filled with all the Britpop hot takes I’ve been holding on to for decades along with some gratuitous references to Kierkegaard.
posted by betweenthebars at 4:02 PM on October 20 [24 favorites]
The writer sounds like an asshole and isn’t funny enough to make up for it. Like what the actual fuck are you doing, tall dude, pushing your way to the front. The woman who told him no is a hero. Seriously doubt he’ll be trying that kind of assholery at the Oasis reunion.
Speaking of which, editors at The Lamp, send me to the Oasis reunion! I promise I’ll deliver some truly bonkers clickbait filled with all the Britpop hot takes I’ve been holding on to for decades along with some gratuitous references to Kierkegaard.
posted by betweenthebars at 4:02 PM on October 20 [24 favorites]
Jesus Fucking Christ. If she's not your thing, you know you can just, like, not listen to her music or go to her concerts. It'll be okay.
posted by chasing at 4:06 PM on October 20 [34 favorites]
posted by chasing at 4:06 PM on October 20 [34 favorites]
I love Sam Kriss's writing, but this is not the best essay Sam Kriss has written. In fact it's not even the best essay Sam Kriss has written about Taylor Swift. The best essay Sam Kriss has written about Taylor Swift is this one: Taylor Swift does not exist.
posted by verstegan at 4:22 PM on October 20 [7 favorites]
posted by verstegan at 4:22 PM on October 20 [7 favorites]
you can just, like, not listen to her music
Sure, but that way I don't get to learn about the Au Pairs, which was fun. The article has strong "I ain't reading all that" energy. I tried to parse it, then I just went and in honor of music people may possibly not care for, put on Low Numbers instead. I've been to the catacombs in Paris, and maybe Robespierre would have liked You Belong with Me, or maybe not - it was not a major concern. Taylor Swift is fine, the kids are fine. It's all fine.
posted by 1xdevnet at 4:46 PM on October 20 [3 favorites]
Sure, but that way I don't get to learn about the Au Pairs, which was fun. The article has strong "I ain't reading all that" energy. I tried to parse it, then I just went and in honor of music people may possibly not care for, put on Low Numbers instead. I've been to the catacombs in Paris, and maybe Robespierre would have liked You Belong with Me, or maybe not - it was not a major concern. Taylor Swift is fine, the kids are fine. It's all fine.
posted by 1xdevnet at 4:46 PM on October 20 [3 favorites]
Okay, that essay. Consider this:
Anyway, it strikes me as very obvious that something similar is happening with the Taylor Swift fans: that they are, in a sense, female incels; that their manic love for and obsession with this woman is also screening an equally intense lack of desire. Taylor Swift is just the name that has been given to a certain blankness in the world.
I mean, that's arrant bullshit. Thus speaks someone who doesn't talk to regular-degular people. We like this paragraph because we like the paragraph above it knocking on incels, but the obvious falseness of this paragraph ought to cast doubt on the other one.
Like, come on. Do you really think that all those Taylor Swift fans who like her music and go to concerts with their best friends and their moms and so on are "in a sense, female incels" whose fandom is just a scrim over an "equally intense lack of desire"? And that they can't explain why they like her music?
It so happens that I know a Taylor Swift fan - not a super duper fan, but someone who genuinely likes her music and goes on kicks of listening to it. She can explain why she likes Taylor Swift's music - she's a musician herself and has some music reason, and she really does struggle with depression and likes the upbeat songs because they are so effectively upbeat. She also likes classical cello and a bunch of other fancy music that is opaque to me, a musical illiterate.
Like you can't just make up shit - you can't just decide that fat people are weird and unsettling and slightly gross symbols of what is flat and banal about America, you can't just decide that fans of Taylor Swift are symbols of the failure of desire, you can't just look at actually existing people and say "I won't even talk to you (if you're a woman - I might make an exception if you are a dude at the concert) but I have this theory about what you represent. " Or rather you can, but while it's a great way to run a substack, it's not a very good way to understand the world.
The rest of that essay is extremely antic and engaging but for pete's sake, you'd think that there had never been Madonna fans, Boy George fans, Garbo fans, etc. Fandoms run by women that don't center on male approval are not new, but they never cease to freak certain people out. These can certainly be toxic fandoms, yes, but they aren't some weird unique sign of the breakdown of essential psychic currents. These are probably the best written "Taylor Swift fandom shows That Something Is Very Wrong" essays I've read, and yet they totally fail to convince me.
I do honestly wish I liked these essays' approach better but (and I did actually poke around on the substack for other stuff, and look at the old blog) there's just so much distance, like it is not remotely worthwhile to find out if the people around you have anything to say for themselves - you just read them according to what you think they mean.
posted by Frowner at 4:46 PM on October 20 [41 favorites]
Anyway, it strikes me as very obvious that something similar is happening with the Taylor Swift fans: that they are, in a sense, female incels; that their manic love for and obsession with this woman is also screening an equally intense lack of desire. Taylor Swift is just the name that has been given to a certain blankness in the world.
I mean, that's arrant bullshit. Thus speaks someone who doesn't talk to regular-degular people. We like this paragraph because we like the paragraph above it knocking on incels, but the obvious falseness of this paragraph ought to cast doubt on the other one.
Like, come on. Do you really think that all those Taylor Swift fans who like her music and go to concerts with their best friends and their moms and so on are "in a sense, female incels" whose fandom is just a scrim over an "equally intense lack of desire"? And that they can't explain why they like her music?
It so happens that I know a Taylor Swift fan - not a super duper fan, but someone who genuinely likes her music and goes on kicks of listening to it. She can explain why she likes Taylor Swift's music - she's a musician herself and has some music reason, and she really does struggle with depression and likes the upbeat songs because they are so effectively upbeat. She also likes classical cello and a bunch of other fancy music that is opaque to me, a musical illiterate.
Like you can't just make up shit - you can't just decide that fat people are weird and unsettling and slightly gross symbols of what is flat and banal about America, you can't just decide that fans of Taylor Swift are symbols of the failure of desire, you can't just look at actually existing people and say "I won't even talk to you (if you're a woman - I might make an exception if you are a dude at the concert) but I have this theory about what you represent. " Or rather you can, but while it's a great way to run a substack, it's not a very good way to understand the world.
The rest of that essay is extremely antic and engaging but for pete's sake, you'd think that there had never been Madonna fans, Boy George fans, Garbo fans, etc. Fandoms run by women that don't center on male approval are not new, but they never cease to freak certain people out. These can certainly be toxic fandoms, yes, but they aren't some weird unique sign of the breakdown of essential psychic currents. These are probably the best written "Taylor Swift fandom shows That Something Is Very Wrong" essays I've read, and yet they totally fail to convince me.
I do honestly wish I liked these essays' approach better but (and I did actually poke around on the substack for other stuff, and look at the old blog) there's just so much distance, like it is not remotely worthwhile to find out if the people around you have anything to say for themselves - you just read them according to what you think they mean.
posted by Frowner at 4:46 PM on October 20 [41 favorites]
The first thing you need to know about Taylor Swift is that she’s a distance predator. She evolved to chase down gazelles on the Serengeti, to run after them for hours until they collapse from sheer exhaustion, at which point Taylor Swift snaps their necks between her jaws and settles down to feed. You can see it in her long, rangy limbs, with which she lopes efficiently up and down the stage. It’s in her forward-pointing eyes. Her sculpted pantherine face. When she smiles you can see theThis boils down to — or more properly billows up from — ‘She’s a Maneater'.
I wonder how much of the rest of this essay consists of a patchwork of fantasias on the tiredest of misogynist cliches about women which the author is arrogant and stupid enough to think people won’t notice.
posted by jamjam at 4:56 PM on October 20 [18 favorites]
I’d hate it, obviously, all this bland depthless pop music, but sometimes hating things is fun.
It sure didn't sound fun. There were plenty of amusing and perceptive lines, but mostly he reminded me of how I think when I'm deeply depressed. Like, no matter where you go, everywhere you look, you just zero in on the worst, saddest things. You go to a park and see kids running around together playing with their toys, and you think about how those toys were made by other kids in sweatshops. You see happy families lined up at the hot dog truck, and you think about cows being slaughtered. You fixate on the trash overflowing the can, the stink wafting out of the public restroom, all the aches and pains of your body. There's no joy anywhere, and it feels like any joy you once felt was a lie.
He went to a Taylor Swift concert expecting to hate it, and he did. I probably would have hated it too, and had a lot of similar thoughts. But I wouldn't have subjected myself to it! Seriously, why was he even there? This wasn't a gleeful takedown of Swift or her fans and it didn't feel like revelatory, on-the-ground journalism. It just felt genuinely despairing, like maybe his friends should check in on him.
I think Courtney Love absolutely destroyed Swift in one line: "She might be a safe space for girls, and she's probably the Madonna of now, but she's not interesting as an artist." Man, if passive-aggressive put-downs could kill, Tay-Tay would just be a little black stain on the ground.
I'll beat you to it...
Metafilter: There's no joy anywhere, and it feels like any joy you once felt was a lie.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:07 PM on October 20 [21 favorites]
It sure didn't sound fun. There were plenty of amusing and perceptive lines, but mostly he reminded me of how I think when I'm deeply depressed. Like, no matter where you go, everywhere you look, you just zero in on the worst, saddest things. You go to a park and see kids running around together playing with their toys, and you think about how those toys were made by other kids in sweatshops. You see happy families lined up at the hot dog truck, and you think about cows being slaughtered. You fixate on the trash overflowing the can, the stink wafting out of the public restroom, all the aches and pains of your body. There's no joy anywhere, and it feels like any joy you once felt was a lie.
He went to a Taylor Swift concert expecting to hate it, and he did. I probably would have hated it too, and had a lot of similar thoughts. But I wouldn't have subjected myself to it! Seriously, why was he even there? This wasn't a gleeful takedown of Swift or her fans and it didn't feel like revelatory, on-the-ground journalism. It just felt genuinely despairing, like maybe his friends should check in on him.
I think Courtney Love absolutely destroyed Swift in one line: "She might be a safe space for girls, and she's probably the Madonna of now, but she's not interesting as an artist." Man, if passive-aggressive put-downs could kill, Tay-Tay would just be a little black stain on the ground.
I'll beat you to it...
Metafilter: There's no joy anywhere, and it feels like any joy you once felt was a lie.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:07 PM on October 20 [21 favorites]
The real test to see if a celebrity is a cult leader is if they can walk through Dollywood unnoticed for 1 hour. If they can go unnoticed, then it has worked, as humility and fresh perspective should restored.
posted by clavdivs at 5:39 PM on October 20 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 5:39 PM on October 20 [1 favorite]
Taylor Swift is the final boss of fandom
Get in with your opinions while you can, we're almost out of time
posted by ginger.beef at 6:03 PM on October 20 [3 favorites]
Get in with your opinions while you can, we're almost out of time
posted by ginger.beef at 6:03 PM on October 20 [3 favorites]
I dunno about the essay (I enjoy Taylor's music, so hate on me if you must), but the MeFi response is kinda depressing.
posted by lhauser at 6:59 PM on October 20 [7 favorites]
posted by lhauser at 6:59 PM on October 20 [7 favorites]
Weird take on Herb Alpert, who was an incredibly successful musician and music entrepreneur (look at that 70s and 80s A&M roster!) and has spent a chunk of the (vast) money he made doing that in some pretty spectacular philanthropy.
posted by MattD at 7:18 PM on October 20 [6 favorites]
posted by MattD at 7:18 PM on October 20 [6 favorites]
But almost as soon as the first concert in Glendale, Arizona, was over, people started reporting something weird happening to their memories. You can read their accounts online. “I know I had so much fun and was singing along to everything,” one fan says, “but I don’t remember it! I remember before and after the concert, but nothing during.” Another: “Id waited half a year for this moment and now that it’s over my brain seems to be trying to convince me I wasn’t there?!” Another: “I know I was there but it feels like a dream.”
Very first rule of anything resembling journalism: citations. Who said this? What was the context? Did the author get this from an Instagram video, or a paragraph they wrote on social media, or did he interview them personally?
I wouldn't make a big deal out of this except it positively reeks of how Stephen Glass started down the path of fabricating articles for the New Republic: i.e. he wanted to make some thematic point about the article's topic, but no one he interviewed actually supplied the line he needed. So he just made up persons, or took someone he interviewed and put the quote he needed in their mouths.
Also, sexism: Successful woman solo artist tours internationally, supported by audience of mainly women = the moral decay at the heart of society? Psh, sure buddy. Find me a similar article about Ed Sheeran.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 7:20 PM on October 20 [14 favorites]
Very first rule of anything resembling journalism: citations. Who said this? What was the context? Did the author get this from an Instagram video, or a paragraph they wrote on social media, or did he interview them personally?
I wouldn't make a big deal out of this except it positively reeks of how Stephen Glass started down the path of fabricating articles for the New Republic: i.e. he wanted to make some thematic point about the article's topic, but no one he interviewed actually supplied the line he needed. So he just made up persons, or took someone he interviewed and put the quote he needed in their mouths.
Also, sexism: Successful woman solo artist tours internationally, supported by audience of mainly women = the moral decay at the heart of society? Psh, sure buddy. Find me a similar article about Ed Sheeran.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 7:20 PM on October 20 [14 favorites]
Also, sexism
Pretty often you can judge a writer simply by this: have they written a similar article about a man performing the same basic role? Ideally a manliest-man? If not, can you conceptualize them doing so?
...if not, then they're scum to be stepped over on your way to something better.
posted by aramaic at 7:32 PM on October 20 [3 favorites]
Pretty often you can judge a writer simply by this: have they written a similar article about a man performing the same basic role? Ideally a manliest-man? If not, can you conceptualize them doing so?
...if not, then they're scum to be stepped over on your way to something better.
posted by aramaic at 7:32 PM on October 20 [3 favorites]
But I mean...you wouldn't. Because no one cares THIS MUCH about Ed Sheeran. He has some pretty rabid fans, but -- Kanye be damned -- no, really; Kanye: be damned -- Ed Sheeran is nothing compared to Taylor Swift in terms of fandom, and the only other contemporary pop star on that level is Beyonce. But the thing is, I have never once seen anyone question whether Beyonce is worthy of her adulation; I can't imagine an article suggesting that she isn't really worth the attention. But I definitely, definitely can imagine that article being written about Taylor Swift, whose popularity seems not so much unwarranted to me as just kind of strange, like if it turned out the one thing we all agreed upon was that we loved the fuck out of eating some broccoli. Broccoli is fine, right? But it's your favorite? Your most favorite? There's nothing better.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:38 PM on October 20 [3 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:38 PM on October 20 [3 favorites]
Has there always been extreme, irrational hatred of things; TV shows, movies, pop stars?
What on earth is there to hate about Taylor Swift? As far as I know, her fans aren't destructive or wasterful or hateful. Music is a good thing, whether it is music I like or music I don't listen to. I am also beyond psyched for a young female artist to become a billionaire. She is the very first musician to reach billionaire status just by virtue of songwriting and singing.
posted by olykate at 7:58 PM on October 20 [11 favorites]
What on earth is there to hate about Taylor Swift? As far as I know, her fans aren't destructive or wasterful or hateful. Music is a good thing, whether it is music I like or music I don't listen to. I am also beyond psyched for a young female artist to become a billionaire. She is the very first musician to reach billionaire status just by virtue of songwriting and singing.
posted by olykate at 7:58 PM on October 20 [11 favorites]
As far as I know, her fans aren't destructive or wasterful or hateful.
Swifities have gotten a lot of press for their toxicity; whether or not it's warranted more than any other fandom, idk, but this is in fact a pretty well known and established thing with lots of examples. Harassment of critics has been severe from a significant portion of the fanbase. One of the criticisms of Taylor Swift is that she generally avoids rebuking these fans in any way and has at times appeared to encourage it.
That's not what the article is talking about at all though. But the article seemed like more of a creative writing exercise than reporting on anything that's actually happened.
posted by brook horse at 8:07 PM on October 20 [5 favorites]
Swifities have gotten a lot of press for their toxicity; whether or not it's warranted more than any other fandom, idk, but this is in fact a pretty well known and established thing with lots of examples. Harassment of critics has been severe from a significant portion of the fanbase. One of the criticisms of Taylor Swift is that she generally avoids rebuking these fans in any way and has at times appeared to encourage it.
That's not what the article is talking about at all though. But the article seemed like more of a creative writing exercise than reporting on anything that's actually happened.
posted by brook horse at 8:07 PM on October 20 [5 favorites]
Like I think it would be far more interesting to write about the cultural factors leading to, for example, Swift fans sending death threats to a journalist, doxxing and accusing him of being a pedophile in an effort to get him fired for mildly critiquing the flow of her Eras tour (which he described as “fantastic” nonetheless) than… idk, this wishes-it-was-sci-fi rambling memoir piece in which the author depicts Swift fans as zombie husks who don’t actually enjoy anything? I learned a lot more about the psyche of the writer than I did Taylor Swift fans, I think. Which is why I liked that description of her as a distance predator so much. You get a glimpse of the man’s nightmares, there. Fascinating stuff. Unfortunately most of the rest of the piece wasn’t so psychologically gripping.
posted by brook horse at 8:27 PM on October 20 [8 favorites]
posted by brook horse at 8:27 PM on October 20 [8 favorites]
The thing I find interesting about swift has less to do with her as a person and what her talents are or aren't, but more why she is a seemingly unique object in the current media landscape. There really aren't any other artists who command the same degree of passion and loyalty from their fanbase.
I can't think of any other musician now who commands a devoted and vociferous fanbase like this these days (at least in the west, I know kpop has serious and sometimes toxic fandom but I'm not up to date on that). The question to me is whether the following around her and the attendant hype is only due to her as a skills as a musician and cultural object or if the media apparatus around her is the last vestiges of a system that made pop stars and is putting every ounce of juice they have behind her.
She is clearly very talented, but is she so talented it justifies being a unicorn in terms of attention and following in this day and age? There have to be a fair number of artists out there with the talent to create works that could engage huge numbers of fans but nothing is reaching her level. In terms of the breadth and scope of human creative skills I can't imagine that she is so singular that no one else is creating works as engaging and attractive as the ones she makes.
The machinery to create enduring stars like her seem less prevalent nowadays and the system that made them is going to dump resources into the thing it knows works vs trying to spin up a new properties. Swift feels like one of the last legacy properties in music as the entirety of pop fragments into a million pieces.
posted by Ferreous at 8:58 PM on October 20 [5 favorites]
I can't think of any other musician now who commands a devoted and vociferous fanbase like this these days (at least in the west, I know kpop has serious and sometimes toxic fandom but I'm not up to date on that). The question to me is whether the following around her and the attendant hype is only due to her as a skills as a musician and cultural object or if the media apparatus around her is the last vestiges of a system that made pop stars and is putting every ounce of juice they have behind her.
She is clearly very talented, but is she so talented it justifies being a unicorn in terms of attention and following in this day and age? There have to be a fair number of artists out there with the talent to create works that could engage huge numbers of fans but nothing is reaching her level. In terms of the breadth and scope of human creative skills I can't imagine that she is so singular that no one else is creating works as engaging and attractive as the ones she makes.
The machinery to create enduring stars like her seem less prevalent nowadays and the system that made them is going to dump resources into the thing it knows works vs trying to spin up a new properties. Swift feels like one of the last legacy properties in music as the entirety of pop fragments into a million pieces.
posted by Ferreous at 8:58 PM on October 20 [5 favorites]
The question to me is whether the following around her and the attendant hype is only due to her as a skills as a musician and cultural object
IMO: never swallowed by drugs or gambling or whatever, never pivoted dramatically to much worse music genre, never switched up to become a cultural icon of movies, and she plays the modern social media game to stay in the limelight really well. Even her concert movie was mostly just her singing, not acting (the craft) poorly. What's her longest break been, between albums and tours? A few months?
IMO, most artists of her caliber want more, or want to be more, and she's happy being more of herself. It also helps that she's a solo artist, so she has 100% control, vs a band like U2, who has gone into and out of the spotlight over the past 40 years, for all those reasons.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:09 PM on October 20 [4 favorites]
IMO: never swallowed by drugs or gambling or whatever, never pivoted dramatically to much worse music genre, never switched up to become a cultural icon of movies, and she plays the modern social media game to stay in the limelight really well. Even her concert movie was mostly just her singing, not acting (the craft) poorly. What's her longest break been, between albums and tours? A few months?
IMO, most artists of her caliber want more, or want to be more, and she's happy being more of herself. It also helps that she's a solo artist, so she has 100% control, vs a band like U2, who has gone into and out of the spotlight over the past 40 years, for all those reasons.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:09 PM on October 20 [4 favorites]
The critical response to Swift also feels like a legacy of a time where pop music perceived as banal was blamed for taking valuable airtime and record store shelf space away from whatever someone considered good music.
I saw photos recently from Ozzfest or another rock festival from the early 2000s and someone was wearing a shirt that said “Spear Britney.” I remember teenage boys worried that rock was dead or dying, being eclipsed by pop and hip hop and boy bands.
It’s hard to really argue now that attention paid to Swift is taking away from, which is just as easy to follow online and stream, or that anyone is really subjected to Swift’s music the way pop songs were ubiquitous back then. But some people still have that reaction, maybe especially if they have a media diet heavy on celebrity news.
posted by smelendez at 9:10 PM on October 20 [4 favorites]
I saw photos recently from Ozzfest or another rock festival from the early 2000s and someone was wearing a shirt that said “Spear Britney.” I remember teenage boys worried that rock was dead or dying, being eclipsed by pop and hip hop and boy bands.
It’s hard to really argue now that attention paid to Swift is taking away from
posted by smelendez at 9:10 PM on October 20 [4 favorites]
(just in case anyone hasn't heard it, 'it's obvious' is the au pairs song that is on every post punk mix tape, for good reason.)
posted by kaibutsu at 9:25 PM on October 20 [3 favorites]
posted by kaibutsu at 9:25 PM on October 20 [3 favorites]
this wishes-it-was-sci-fi rambling memoir piece
This was exactly my take on it; I thought that we were being set up for the entire thing being some sort of techno-magical working, like the kind of thing that Alan Moore keeps trying to do but successful, and that 20 minutes in it switches to Tay giving precise instructions on where to go to get on the mothership and which numbers on the ticket corresponded to which cryo pods, or maybe just her chanting "don't resist being sent to the protein vats, you know that it's better this way for everyone," or something. Instead we get this endless litany from someone who comes off as the sort of guy who carries a Moleskine around with him to write down all the clever, cutting things that he thought of to say to people, a few minutes after it would have made sense to say them.
The critical response to Swift also feels like a legacy of a time where pop music perceived as banal was blamed for taking valuable airtime and record store shelf space away from whatever someone considered good music.
And that, on at least one occasion, led to Disco Demolition Night, a gathering that really was worth criticizing, and certainly has been, especially because disco was already starting to fade. Put it another way: if Swift really was "a pop star exactly five minutes after the absolute peak of her fame," what's the point of this whole thing? Gloating?
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:45 PM on October 20 [4 favorites]
This was exactly my take on it; I thought that we were being set up for the entire thing being some sort of techno-magical working, like the kind of thing that Alan Moore keeps trying to do but successful, and that 20 minutes in it switches to Tay giving precise instructions on where to go to get on the mothership and which numbers on the ticket corresponded to which cryo pods, or maybe just her chanting "don't resist being sent to the protein vats, you know that it's better this way for everyone," or something. Instead we get this endless litany from someone who comes off as the sort of guy who carries a Moleskine around with him to write down all the clever, cutting things that he thought of to say to people, a few minutes after it would have made sense to say them.
The critical response to Swift also feels like a legacy of a time where pop music perceived as banal was blamed for taking valuable airtime and record store shelf space away from whatever someone considered good music.
And that, on at least one occasion, led to Disco Demolition Night, a gathering that really was worth criticizing, and certainly has been, especially because disco was already starting to fade. Put it another way: if Swift really was "a pop star exactly five minutes after the absolute peak of her fame," what's the point of this whole thing? Gloating?
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:45 PM on October 20 [4 favorites]
I was going to complain about Kriss' mean spirited click bait but man, having the chutzpah to take on Taylor Swift at the height of her popularity AND shit talk the city of Paris in the same article is almost impressive.
Herb Alpert is great though, so get bent Sam.
posted by Wretch729 at 9:53 PM on October 20 [5 favorites]
Herb Alpert is great though, so get bent Sam.
posted by Wretch729 at 9:53 PM on October 20 [5 favorites]
This is a classic example of the curiously persistent genre of essays by self-loathing British men terrified of feeling anything crapping on everyone else’s good time. I’ve read a confounding number of such pieces lately, written over 200 years. Someone should tell these sad boys that it’s OK to just enjoy things, be they traveling in Spain or pop music or Disneyland or whatever.
posted by Just the one swan, actually at 10:05 PM on October 20 [11 favorites]
posted by Just the one swan, actually at 10:05 PM on October 20 [11 favorites]
But almost as soon as the first concert in Glendale, Arizona, was over, people started reporting something weird happening to their memories. You can read their accounts online. “I know I had so much fun and was singing along to everything,” one fan says, “but I don’t remember it! I remember before and after the concert, but nothing during.” Another: “Id waited half a year for this moment and now that it’s over my brain seems to be trying to convince me I wasn’t there?!” Another: “I know I was there but it feels like a dream.”I seem to remember these exact quotes from a Guardian article a couple(?) of months ago, but in my memory these women were talking about their experiences of shows on Beyoncé's most recent tour, not Taylor Swift's.
Very first rule of anything resembling journalism: citations. Who said this? What was the context?
I think this is a real phenomenon, and highly interesting.
posted by jamjam at 10:45 PM on October 20 [1 favorite]
Very first rule of anything resembling journalism: citations. Who said this? What was the context?
His mention of "online" plus the "Id waited" with no apostrophe implied a message board to me, presumably a fan one, and googling the "Id waited" quote confirmed the source as this Reddit thread from a Swiftie sub. The final quote was also from that thread, though it's a more commonplace phrase that turns up elsewhere online in different contexts; the first was from another Reddit thread.
posted by rory at 12:04 AM on October 21 [5 favorites]
His mention of "online" plus the "Id waited" with no apostrophe implied a message board to me, presumably a fan one, and googling the "Id waited" quote confirmed the source as this Reddit thread from a Swiftie sub. The final quote was also from that thread, though it's a more commonplace phrase that turns up elsewhere online in different contexts; the first was from another Reddit thread.
posted by rory at 12:04 AM on October 21 [5 favorites]
Whenever people get down on Taylor like this I just put on "State of Grace" real loud and think how that song sounds like if U2 made good music.
posted by kensington314 at 12:10 AM on October 21 [2 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 12:10 AM on October 21 [2 favorites]
the curiously persistent genre of essays by self-loathing British men terrified of feeling anything
An accurate description of a century-plus of British non-fiction writing there...
crapping on everyone else’s good time
The national impulse that brought you centuries of paternalistic colonialism!
What got me about this article (I read the first half-ish) was the detail that The Lamp paid ten times the €95 face value of Kriss's ticket. I thought journalism was dying and there was no money in it. I think I've only ever encountered The Lamp via links here to articles by Kriss. Where are they getting a thousand euros to send Mr Grumpy on a jolly? (And the rest: Eurostar, hotel, meals.)
I did enjoy his creatively grumpy turns of phrase, but yes, after those first intriguing questions about concert amnesia it becomes more about his own prejudices and peeves. Which is entertaining enough in isolation, but as evidence of anything deeper about the Swift phenomenon: nahh.
posted by rory at 12:21 AM on October 21 [3 favorites]
An accurate description of a century-plus of British non-fiction writing there...
crapping on everyone else’s good time
The national impulse that brought you centuries of paternalistic colonialism!
What got me about this article (I read the first half-ish) was the detail that The Lamp paid ten times the €95 face value of Kriss's ticket. I thought journalism was dying and there was no money in it. I think I've only ever encountered The Lamp via links here to articles by Kriss. Where are they getting a thousand euros to send Mr Grumpy on a jolly? (And the rest: Eurostar, hotel, meals.)
I did enjoy his creatively grumpy turns of phrase, but yes, after those first intriguing questions about concert amnesia it becomes more about his own prejudices and peeves. Which is entertaining enough in isolation, but as evidence of anything deeper about the Swift phenomenon: nahh.
posted by rory at 12:21 AM on October 21 [3 favorites]
the curiously persistent genre of essays by self-loathing British men terrified of feeling anything
To give British journalism its due, Sam Kriss is also loathed by everyone in British journalism to the extent of never being published here any more. He's a vile creep who actually was cancelled for being a creep.
I guess this is why he's now being published by an odd right wing Catholic funded US magazine.
posted by ambrosen at 5:29 AM on October 21 [8 favorites]
To give British journalism its due, Sam Kriss is also loathed by everyone in British journalism to the extent of never being published here any more. He's a vile creep who actually was cancelled for being a creep.
I guess this is why he's now being published by an odd right wing Catholic funded US magazine.
posted by ambrosen at 5:29 AM on October 21 [8 favorites]
The “ha-ha fat lazy corn syrup fed Americans” bit was the part that made me want to eject this sniveling man-child into the ether.
posted by snortasprocket at 6:54 AM on October 21 [3 favorites]
posted by snortasprocket at 6:54 AM on October 21 [3 favorites]
The Haters indeed are going to hate hate hate. It must be fun to professionally look down at people in the name of (checks notes), …a kind and loving god.
posted by nickggully at 6:58 AM on October 21 [2 favorites]
posted by nickggully at 6:58 AM on October 21 [2 favorites]
So I was poking around and looking at some of his other essays in the faint hope that they'd be different somehow, because he can turn a phrase, and I found one about hipsterism/nerds/Marvel/etc and what was so funny was that it was this long jeremiad about people who Are Too Into Stuff but with periodic asides about how what people he obviously knows IRL like is good, actually. It's bad to know too much about the wrong kind of fashion, but it's good and cultured to be obsessed by every detail of the right (expensive, elite) kind of fashion. It's bad to obsess about widely accessible food but good to obsess about techniques and dishes from extremely expensive restaurants. I mean for fuck's sake, have the courage of your convictions - even if you think it's actually good to bore people stiff about expensive purchases and bad to bore people stiff about cheap ones, it takes away from the momentum of the essay to make sure that your friends know that you don't look down on them for being obsessed with Valentino, etc. (Also, if you like eating fast food that's bad, but if you (clearly Sam) occasionally like a McDonald's burger as a form of childhood nostalgia, that's good. I mean for fuck's sake.)
But that essay is just like the Taylor Swift ones in that he doesn't actually care about what any of these Wrong Actors think about their actions, only about the scrim of motive that he can layer over them. It almost reconciled me to Marvel, because I started thinking, "so all along I've never really asked myself why people like those movies, only read essays about how it's faintly risible to like them, or a sign of having insufficient sex drives or whatever". (Amazing how many critics of pop culture on the left and right are really, really worried about the sex that people younger than them apparently don't want to have - it's probably not conscious, but it has a real eugenics vibe.)
The funny thing is that I truly do more or less believe that quite a lot of popular culture is unhealthy, but that's more because of what it does to the watcher than because the watcher is Doing It Wrong. A lot of popular culture appeals to our worse natures and reinscribes bad feelings and bad ideas. Sometimes it does that by appealing to our worse natures - the pleasures of hating people or doing violence to people who Really Deserve It In The Movie, etc - and sometimes it sneaks bad ideas in by appealing to our legitimate needs or better impulses. A lot of popular culture is propaganda or advertising for a bad and miserable life, and just like advertising for McDonalds, it works. But I'd say none the less that hunger is normal, that wishing for connection and purpose is good and that the perversion of these impulses into overconsumption of harmful products and terrible ideas is bad thing, not the hunger and the wishes.
People want to overread Taylor Swift because it's normal to want to have a field of knowledge. We live in an increasingly deskilled and detextured world. People will create skills and textures because those make people happy, and if they don't have the skills or the background for more complex kinds of knowledge, they will build knowledge structures out of Taylor Swift lyrics. I tend to think that people are happier and their lives are richer when they can learn other skills or engage with richer texts, but the impulse to engage is good and healthy.
In fact, as I think about this, I'd say that I take exactly the opposite position about Taylor Swift, Swifties, etc from this writer. I don't think that Taylor Swift fandom represents some kind of blankness or failure of desire*; on the contrary, what's good is the desire of fans for connection, excitement, art, knowledge of a body of texts - those are all good, human things, healthy desires. What's bad (and I don't even think it's unusually bad, tbqh, given the world as it is today) is channeling that into toxic fandom or overconsumption. What we need is more and better ways for people to get what they need and want, not a lot of sour-mouthed insult.
*except maybe the desire to pay attention to, flirt with, hook up with men like the author, which is clearly what chaps him, along with all those fat American women who are not sexually attractive to him because he has Very High Standards and only eats McDonalds as nostalgia, etc.
posted by Frowner at 6:59 AM on October 21 [17 favorites]
But that essay is just like the Taylor Swift ones in that he doesn't actually care about what any of these Wrong Actors think about their actions, only about the scrim of motive that he can layer over them. It almost reconciled me to Marvel, because I started thinking, "so all along I've never really asked myself why people like those movies, only read essays about how it's faintly risible to like them, or a sign of having insufficient sex drives or whatever". (Amazing how many critics of pop culture on the left and right are really, really worried about the sex that people younger than them apparently don't want to have - it's probably not conscious, but it has a real eugenics vibe.)
The funny thing is that I truly do more or less believe that quite a lot of popular culture is unhealthy, but that's more because of what it does to the watcher than because the watcher is Doing It Wrong. A lot of popular culture appeals to our worse natures and reinscribes bad feelings and bad ideas. Sometimes it does that by appealing to our worse natures - the pleasures of hating people or doing violence to people who Really Deserve It In The Movie, etc - and sometimes it sneaks bad ideas in by appealing to our legitimate needs or better impulses. A lot of popular culture is propaganda or advertising for a bad and miserable life, and just like advertising for McDonalds, it works. But I'd say none the less that hunger is normal, that wishing for connection and purpose is good and that the perversion of these impulses into overconsumption of harmful products and terrible ideas is bad thing, not the hunger and the wishes.
People want to overread Taylor Swift because it's normal to want to have a field of knowledge. We live in an increasingly deskilled and detextured world. People will create skills and textures because those make people happy, and if they don't have the skills or the background for more complex kinds of knowledge, they will build knowledge structures out of Taylor Swift lyrics. I tend to think that people are happier and their lives are richer when they can learn other skills or engage with richer texts, but the impulse to engage is good and healthy.
In fact, as I think about this, I'd say that I take exactly the opposite position about Taylor Swift, Swifties, etc from this writer. I don't think that Taylor Swift fandom represents some kind of blankness or failure of desire*; on the contrary, what's good is the desire of fans for connection, excitement, art, knowledge of a body of texts - those are all good, human things, healthy desires. What's bad (and I don't even think it's unusually bad, tbqh, given the world as it is today) is channeling that into toxic fandom or overconsumption. What we need is more and better ways for people to get what they need and want, not a lot of sour-mouthed insult.
*except maybe the desire to pay attention to, flirt with, hook up with men like the author, which is clearly what chaps him, along with all those fat American women who are not sexually attractive to him because he has Very High Standards and only eats McDonalds as nostalgia, etc.
posted by Frowner at 6:59 AM on October 21 [17 favorites]
ambrosen: I guess this is why he's now being published by an odd right wing Catholic funded US magazine.
I am a Catholic who likes magazines, and I have never heard of The Lamp. A glance at the cover explains why, too:
posted by wenestvedt at 7:00 AM on October 21 [6 favorites]
I am a Catholic who likes magazines, and I have never heard of The Lamp. A glance at the cover explains why, too:
ISSUE 25I checked out the article on Newport (hey, a local angle!), and it ends by saying that fewer Catholics attend Mass since the 1970s. No shit? This is not worth my time. At least America has interesting stuff, and Boston College's various publications put out interesting pieces -- possibly even on Tay, possibly even intersecting!
THE LAMP
A CATHOLIC JOURNAL OF LITERATURE, SCIENCE, THE FINE ARTS, ETC.
03 Feuilleton
04 Brass Rubbings: John F. Quinn on the Church in Newport
07 The Jungle: Carino Hodder on the Rupnik scandal
10 Historia ecclesiastica: Jodi Magness on Jerusalem
13 Apologia: Vincent L. Strand on an ancestor
18 Sam Kriss on Taylor Swift
29 Stanley Fish on the presidential election
34 Nathan Payne on Catholic schools
41 Peter Hitchens on Ian Fleming
44 Jaspreet Singh Boparai on Ranjit Singh
51 Edward Short on Hardy's poetry
55 Bagatelle: David Bentley Hart on the gods
61 Appreciations: Eduard Habsburg-Lothringen on Dracula
64 Nunc dimittis: Nic Rowan on Nat Sherman
posted by wenestvedt at 7:00 AM on October 21 [6 favorites]
I'd rather spend time with the most unhinged fans of Music I Don't Like than listen to this whinging, self-important little man.
posted by pattern juggler at 7:16 AM on October 21 [4 favorites]
posted by pattern juggler at 7:16 AM on October 21 [4 favorites]
It looks like the author was accused of sexual harassment, and semi-apologized before deleting the apology.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 8:00 AM on October 21 [5 favorites]
The Facebook note recounted a story about Sam Kriss — a writer who regularly contributes to Vice and The Atlantic.I think it's probably the usual story. He got cancelled and joined the right-wing media ecosystem instead. The article has a common theme for that: Young non-conservatives might think they're having pleasant lives including [attending Taylor Swift concerts] but actually their lives are empty and dissatisfied due to an absence of Jesus.
The story claimed Kriss had groped and forcibly kissed the author on a night out, and went into detail about other incidents of alleged sexual harassment.
"I could write of other incidents that occurred across the 3 times I met him, some could be considered worse, but I think detailing that one evening gives a clear picture," the note ended.
Responding to the allegations, a Vice source told BuzzFeed News that the outlet had no plans to commission pieces from Kriss again. The Atlantic has not returned calls about whether it would follow suit.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 8:00 AM on October 21 [5 favorites]
None of these people, I realized, were actually looking at Taylor Swift. They were paying eye-watering sums of money to watch the live video feed of her on the enormous screen behind the stage. Which you could do at home, for free.
If he thinks watching the screen at a stadium concert is the same thing as watching the movie at home he really doesn't get why people go to stadium concerts, which -- OK, fine, not everybody likes that, but it should be clear they're not actually having the same experience they'd have at home on their couch, right?
I mean, I don't really go to stadium concerts myself, but I took my kid to Harry Styles and you know what? I get it. I wouldn't necessarily make a practice of it, but come on, something is happening that doesn't happen when you're watching concert footage on your iPad.
posted by escabeche at 8:25 AM on October 21 [2 favorites]
If he thinks watching the screen at a stadium concert is the same thing as watching the movie at home he really doesn't get why people go to stadium concerts, which -- OK, fine, not everybody likes that, but it should be clear they're not actually having the same experience they'd have at home on their couch, right?
I mean, I don't really go to stadium concerts myself, but I took my kid to Harry Styles and you know what? I get it. I wouldn't necessarily make a practice of it, but come on, something is happening that doesn't happen when you're watching concert footage on your iPad.
posted by escabeche at 8:25 AM on October 21 [2 favorites]
Just wanted to chime in here that I actually didn’t like many of his turns of phrase or analogies. I thought a lot of it (as pointed out above) was wild extrapolation, and also him wishing there was a terrorist attack happened because he found the performance rote was particularly vile. It was not clever.
posted by knownassociate at 8:28 AM on October 21 [2 favorites]
posted by knownassociate at 8:28 AM on October 21 [2 favorites]
Has there always been extreme, irrational hatred of things; TV shows, movies, pop stars?
Only since women and girls started being x-tra fans. Seems like is mostly goes one way. Men and boys getting irrationally angry that girls and women like things that they don't. (see The Beatles, Boy Bands, Pumpkin Spice Lattes, Taylor Swift, etc.). If a feminine person likes it, it must be denigrated because it can't possibly have value.
posted by hydra77 at 9:36 AM on October 21 [7 favorites]
Only since women and girls started being x-tra fans. Seems like is mostly goes one way. Men and boys getting irrationally angry that girls and women like things that they don't. (see The Beatles, Boy Bands, Pumpkin Spice Lattes, Taylor Swift, etc.). If a feminine person likes it, it must be denigrated because it can't possibly have value.
posted by hydra77 at 9:36 AM on October 21 [7 favorites]
Only since women and girls started being x-tra fans.
Probably not wrong exactly but that’s pretty closely bound with the birth of the modern concept of the pop star, strictly speaking.
posted by atoxyl at 9:52 AM on October 21 [2 favorites]
Probably not wrong exactly but that’s pretty closely bound with the birth of the modern concept of the pop star, strictly speaking.
posted by atoxyl at 9:52 AM on October 21 [2 favorites]
I think it's also "women and girls have fandoms that don't center men" and "gay people have fandoms that don't center straightness". If women and girls are dressing up to go to a concert, but they aren't dressing up for men at the concert, that's very threatening. If they're dressing up, but they aren't dressing up to look sexy, that's also threatening - an outfit that's a little silly? Experimental make-up? Shoes that either aren't sexy or are sexy in the wrong way? All signs that men are not at the center of the experience, and even if your life otherwise revolves around your boyfriend and your family, anything that doesn't put them in the center is a sign that you are selfish and bad, etc.
Like, it is incredibly common for girls/women to pick up musical and literary taste from their boyfriends or male friends (and that's not a bad thing! expanding your tastes is a good thing!) but incredibly rare for it work the other way around. Very occasionally, if a girl already likes, eg, free jazz or Neu! or Russian film, a boyfriend will pick those up from her - but nothing girl-coded. Even certified high culture hits don't count - a guy isn't going to read Jane Eyre or get extremely into Louise Bourgeois or Remedios Varo or learn Tudor embroidery techniques, etc, because that's for girls.
posted by Frowner at 9:59 AM on October 21 [12 favorites]
Like, it is incredibly common for girls/women to pick up musical and literary taste from their boyfriends or male friends (and that's not a bad thing! expanding your tastes is a good thing!) but incredibly rare for it work the other way around. Very occasionally, if a girl already likes, eg, free jazz or Neu! or Russian film, a boyfriend will pick those up from her - but nothing girl-coded. Even certified high culture hits don't count - a guy isn't going to read Jane Eyre or get extremely into Louise Bourgeois or Remedios Varo or learn Tudor embroidery techniques, etc, because that's for girls.
posted by Frowner at 9:59 AM on October 21 [12 favorites]
I don't really get spinning the "forgetting the concert" thing into a whole article; it's possible this person doesn't attend a lot of concerts. Many people forget them immediately. I know I sure do! I could say to you, "Solange at the Hollywood Bowl is one of the best concerts I've been to in years," and that would be true, but if pressed for details I'd recall . . . a red cast to the stage show, and some geometric shapes, and I think the Blood Orange guy came out, which implies that she performed some of the songs she recorded with him, some of my favorite stuff of hers, but I don't remember the performances. This is just how concerts work for people! You remember you were excited. You remember you spent a lot of money or travelled a distance to attend. That's about it! For me, unless the guitar player disrobed or the police came for some other kind of reason, I don't remember much once it's over. Still love going to shows though.
Quoting the article, "I know I was there but it feels like a dream" is quite literally why a lot of people attend concerts to begin with. Why should a Taylor fan be expected to have a better memory than the average show-goer?
posted by kensington314 at 10:33 AM on October 21 [5 favorites]
Quoting the article, "I know I was there but it feels like a dream" is quite literally why a lot of people attend concerts to begin with. Why should a Taylor fan be expected to have a better memory than the average show-goer?
posted by kensington314 at 10:33 AM on October 21 [5 favorites]
I'm slow to arrive at what kensington314 just posted, but indeed: what are concert memories really all about? Especially these mega-events with All the Things?
I agree completely. You're lucky to escape with a few lasting impressions. I suppose the biggest spectacle I attended was U2 (POP tour), it was very much a stadium show and I very much remember nothing of it. I don't think I recalled much of it a week later. I've been to smaller shows, and even one of my first shows (Fishbone, small venue), one of the lasting impressions was the closeness of the moshpit and one guy who kept farting in the vicinity of the front of stage, clearly I knew this from a lasting smell impression.
not reading the TFA, no time for that
posted by ginger.beef at 10:48 AM on October 21 [1 favorite]
I agree completely. You're lucky to escape with a few lasting impressions. I suppose the biggest spectacle I attended was U2 (POP tour), it was very much a stadium show and I very much remember nothing of it. I don't think I recalled much of it a week later. I've been to smaller shows, and even one of my first shows (Fishbone, small venue), one of the lasting impressions was the closeness of the moshpit and one guy who kept farting in the vicinity of the front of stage, clearly I knew this from a lasting smell impression.
not reading the TFA, no time for that
posted by ginger.beef at 10:48 AM on October 21 [1 favorite]
This was a Big Gulp of liquid self-hatred.
I knew it was going sideways when he started in on the few (really, though?) gay male fans he spotted at the concert. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt around his conclusion that there were few gay men in Paris at this specific concert, even though I think it's just as likely that he wasn't really capable of assessing the crowd demographics in any meaningful way.
Not seeing lots of gay men at this show in Paris doesn't mean gay men aren't going to her concerts. If he'd gone to any single Taylor Swift show in North America (pick any venue), he would have seen how incorrect that conclusion is.
I think it's more likely that French gay men aren't as quick to shell out hundreds or thousands of euros to see an American former country singer who has been significantly less successful in continental Europe as in North America (and the UK). (Mea culpa for the reddit link, but it makes the point well, and is easily cross-referenced with a look at her singles discography on Wikipedia.)
posted by yellowcandy at 10:48 AM on October 21 [1 favorite]
I knew it was going sideways when he started in on the few (really, though?) gay male fans he spotted at the concert. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt around his conclusion that there were few gay men in Paris at this specific concert, even though I think it's just as likely that he wasn't really capable of assessing the crowd demographics in any meaningful way.
Not seeing lots of gay men at this show in Paris doesn't mean gay men aren't going to her concerts. If he'd gone to any single Taylor Swift show in North America (pick any venue), he would have seen how incorrect that conclusion is.
I think it's more likely that French gay men aren't as quick to shell out hundreds or thousands of euros to see an American former country singer who has been significantly less successful in continental Europe as in North America (and the UK). (Mea culpa for the reddit link, but it makes the point well, and is easily cross-referenced with a look at her singles discography on Wikipedia.)
posted by yellowcandy at 10:48 AM on October 21 [1 favorite]
the part that resonates with me is asking why this kind of fan reverence isn't doled upon PJ Harvey or even Lana Del Rey, someone a little more substantial.
I have never once seen anyone question whether Beyonce is worthy of her adulation; I can't imagine an article suggesting that she isn't really worth the attention. But I definitely, definitely can imagine that article being written about Taylor Swift
And we see you over there on the internet
Comparing all the girls who are killing it
But we figured you out
We all know now
We all got crowns
You need to calm down
posted by knobknosher at 11:15 AM on October 21 [7 favorites]
I have never once seen anyone question whether Beyonce is worthy of her adulation; I can't imagine an article suggesting that she isn't really worth the attention. But I definitely, definitely can imagine that article being written about Taylor Swift
And we see you over there on the internet
Comparing all the girls who are killing it
But we figured you out
We all know now
We all got crowns
You need to calm down
posted by knobknosher at 11:15 AM on October 21 [7 favorites]
Seriously though if someone as purportedly insubstantial as Taylor Swift has already correctly identified that you’re on some bullshit, maybe you’re not the kind of deep thinker who should be determining who is and isn’t substantial
posted by knobknosher at 11:17 AM on October 21 [3 favorites]
posted by knobknosher at 11:17 AM on October 21 [3 favorites]
Oh dear god. My son is a Taylor Swift fan; there's even a tiny little TS sticker on the trunk of his car and he paid more money than he will admit to buy a ticket to her concert this fall. That's all fine. My experience is that I've listened to Folklore two or three times, could not tell one song from another and could discern no melodies, and figured I didn't need to go any farther. Both reactions are fine; both reactions are normal; writing this level of verbiage--and I love me some fancy verbiage-- is kind of a bullshit waste of time when he could have just admitted that he's annoyed by her fame and jealous of her success and wants to feel superior to someone who does not know or care that he exists. Using the cudgel of words to try and rectify the imbalance of the world, or something.
posted by jokeefe at 11:22 AM on October 21 [4 favorites]
posted by jokeefe at 11:22 AM on October 21 [4 favorites]
(just in case anyone hasn't heard it, 'it's obvious' is the au pairs song that is on every post punk mix tape, for good reason.)
Surely it should be Come Again?
My love for this album, Playing with a Different Sex, is unbounded. It was released when I was 22 and I just retired this year, oh god, time it doth march on and march on but damn the early 80s where a treasure trove of brilliant music (yes, I know everyone feels that way about what they were listening to when they were in their early twenties, but come on).
"This song is about faking orgasms!" Yes it is. Is your finger aching, I can feel you hesitating...
posted by jokeefe at 11:41 AM on October 21 [2 favorites]
Surely it should be Come Again?
My love for this album, Playing with a Different Sex, is unbounded. It was released when I was 22 and I just retired this year, oh god, time it doth march on and march on but damn the early 80s where a treasure trove of brilliant music (yes, I know everyone feels that way about what they were listening to when they were in their early twenties, but come on).
"This song is about faking orgasms!" Yes it is. Is your finger aching, I can feel you hesitating...
posted by jokeefe at 11:41 AM on October 21 [2 favorites]
Wow. This reads like the sort of pseudo-intellectual conservative "think piece" David Brooks would churn out if he had a flair for nifty phrasing. Swift fans are incels? Sounds like someone is pissed-off that Swifties are mobilized and enthusiastically registering people to vote in this election.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:05 PM on October 21 [3 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 12:05 PM on October 21 [3 favorites]
I think Taylor Swift is incredibly beautiful but she doesn't really present herself as "sexy" -- at least not in a way for the male gaze. She can run around in fishnets and bodysuits and stilettos but somehow it just comes across as cute and fun. I think that's a lot of who she just is but I also think she's careful to present that image, too. I think even if men don't acknowledge that's the case, the fact she has so little interest in catering to them is incredibly threatening.
And at this point, why should she? She's a billionaire and a businesswoman on top of being a pop star. She's on a sold-out world tour. She does not need some random dude's approval.
(I started reading this and then around the part about Paris being one thing for Europeans and another thing for Americans, I started skimming. And then I just started scrolling to see how long this was. Was he getting paid by the word? Was there any actual point to any of this?)
posted by edencosmic at 1:20 PM on October 21 [5 favorites]
And at this point, why should she? She's a billionaire and a businesswoman on top of being a pop star. She's on a sold-out world tour. She does not need some random dude's approval.
(I started reading this and then around the part about Paris being one thing for Europeans and another thing for Americans, I started skimming. And then I just started scrolling to see how long this was. Was he getting paid by the word? Was there any actual point to any of this?)
posted by edencosmic at 1:20 PM on October 21 [5 favorites]
Man, the derision with which people on this site regard Taylor Swift with would be surprising if it wasn't so predictable and disappointing. So she makes music that you don't like, so do a lot of other artists. But you've decided that not only do you not like her music, but you don't like her. You think she writes vapid little pop songs for her brainless hordes of fans, and she writes about her life so she must be a vapid, inconsequential person undeserving of any respect. It's not enough to hate on her music, people have to show up in every post about her (or any post where she gets brought up in the comments) to continue to make sure others hear how much you think she sucks, as a person. It's gross, really.
I'd rather spend time with the most unhinged fans of Music I Don't Like than listen to this whinging, self-important little man.
Welcome! Would you like a friendship bracelet? We have cocoa and cardigans, too.
posted by ApathyGirl at 1:28 PM on October 21 [6 favorites]
I'd rather spend time with the most unhinged fans of Music I Don't Like than listen to this whinging, self-important little man.
Welcome! Would you like a friendship bracelet? We have cocoa and cardigans, too.
posted by ApathyGirl at 1:28 PM on October 21 [6 favorites]
I thought it was going to be by Peter Criss.
After getting over my disappointment, I felt compelled to make some edits:
"People have by any measure, started to worry me. The Eras Tour came to Europe. Five hours later, it was night. On the outer fringes of the crowd were a few scattered men, bashfully pissed. At this point, the little plastic boxes on everyone’s wristbands started to glow. I did get my wish, sort of. The END."
posted by Transylvania Metro Android Castle at 2:11 PM on October 21 [2 favorites]
After getting over my disappointment, I felt compelled to make some edits:
"People have by any measure, started to worry me. The Eras Tour came to Europe. Five hours later, it was night. On the outer fringes of the crowd were a few scattered men, bashfully pissed. At this point, the little plastic boxes on everyone’s wristbands started to glow. I did get my wish, sort of. The END."
posted by Transylvania Metro Android Castle at 2:11 PM on October 21 [2 favorites]
I think Taylor Swift is incredibly beautiful but she doesn't really present herself as "sexy" -- at least not in a way for the male gaze
And I love that too, since it feels better when 6 year old girls love her.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:59 PM on October 21 [2 favorites]
And I love that too, since it feels better when 6 year old girls love her.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:59 PM on October 21 [2 favorites]
>Man, the derision with which people on this site regard Taylor Swift with would be surprising if it wasn't so predictable and disappointing.
Thank you, ApathyGirl. I already have a nice sweater, but would love some cocoa.
posted by lhauser at 3:08 PM on October 21 [4 favorites]
Thank you, ApathyGirl. I already have a nice sweater, but would love some cocoa.
posted by lhauser at 3:08 PM on October 21 [4 favorites]
Man, the derision with which people on this site regard Taylor Swift with would be surprising if it wasn't so predictable and disappointing. So she makes music that you don't like, so do a lot of other artists. But you've decided that not only do you not like her music, but you don't like her.
Hang on, what? This site? Mefi? Which people? You seem to be confusing a subset of commenters in this thread with thousands of members across the site who contain all kinds.
My youngest was a big Taylor Swift fan for a good few years, which meant it was all we listened to in the car from approximately "Shake It Off" through "Me". I think 1989 and Reputation are two of the key pop albums of the 2010s, and might even throw Red in as well; even sang "We are Never, Ever..." at a work karaoke do once. Around the time of Lover my kid moved on, and is now more interested in Hatsune Miku, but I've kept checking out Swift's new albums, though I admit I'm more interested in Billie Eilish's and Olivia Rodrigo's latest offerings these days.
I started reading this article because I enjoyed Kriss's review of a biography of Elon Musk (via here) in which he slagged off both Musk and his biographer, but once it became clear that Kriss had no real interest in his subject of Swift and Swifties, or his initial premise about forgetting, I lost interest—around the point edencosmic did, by the look of it. Skimming the rest now, I see he gets into the swing of slagging off Paris and Americans, and... wow, he really does get stuck into Swifties, doesn't he.
It was more amusing when he was sticking the boot into Elon Musk and Walter Isaacson.
posted by rory at 3:10 PM on October 21 [1 favorite]
Hang on, what? This site? Mefi? Which people? You seem to be confusing a subset of commenters in this thread with thousands of members across the site who contain all kinds.
My youngest was a big Taylor Swift fan for a good few years, which meant it was all we listened to in the car from approximately "Shake It Off" through "Me". I think 1989 and Reputation are two of the key pop albums of the 2010s, and might even throw Red in as well; even sang "We are Never, Ever..." at a work karaoke do once. Around the time of Lover my kid moved on, and is now more interested in Hatsune Miku, but I've kept checking out Swift's new albums, though I admit I'm more interested in Billie Eilish's and Olivia Rodrigo's latest offerings these days.
I started reading this article because I enjoyed Kriss's review of a biography of Elon Musk (via here) in which he slagged off both Musk and his biographer, but once it became clear that Kriss had no real interest in his subject of Swift and Swifties, or his initial premise about forgetting, I lost interest—around the point edencosmic did, by the look of it. Skimming the rest now, I see he gets into the swing of slagging off Paris and Americans, and... wow, he really does get stuck into Swifties, doesn't he.
It was more amusing when he was sticking the boot into Elon Musk and Walter Isaacson.
posted by rory at 3:10 PM on October 21 [1 favorite]
It does seem to be the way of pop-music-related threads here (and this isn't unique to Mefi) that they attract comments from people who dislike the artists in question and need to make sure we're aware of it, whether it's Coldplay, Oasis, U2, or whoever. The intriguing thing about this one is that its focus is an article by a guy who turned that same urge into a work trip to Paris and a nine thousand word article.
posted by rory at 3:25 PM on October 21 [5 favorites]
posted by rory at 3:25 PM on October 21 [5 favorites]
"Remember me," she said.
posted by mule98J at 4:32 PM on October 21 [1 favorite]
posted by mule98J at 4:32 PM on October 21 [1 favorite]
It's not enough to hate on her music, people have to show up in every post about her (or any post where she gets brought up in the comments) to continue to make sure others hear how much you think she sucks, as a person.
There's an entire Earth full of people who won't shut up, ever ever ever, about how exquisitely perfect Taylor Swift is. You're on a site that's famously full of crabby people, and some of them show up in Taylor Swift threads to crab about how they find her brand exhausting? I hope you can learn to cope. For some of us this is a blessed respite from the Swiftopia.
I don't actually hate Taylor Swift, as a musician or a person. If Debbie Gibson and Alanis Morissette had a baby and that baby's godmother was Shania Twain, that baby would grow up to be Taylor Swift. Seriously, Taylor Swift is... fine. And it's perfectly fine that every time I check the news I see the same three headlines: Trump has done something hideous (and had a new bump in the polls), another hurricane is on the way and Taylor Swift and her football boyfriend went someplace and did some goddamn thing. Everything is fine.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:33 PM on October 21 [5 favorites]
There's an entire Earth full of people who won't shut up, ever ever ever, about how exquisitely perfect Taylor Swift is. You're on a site that's famously full of crabby people, and some of them show up in Taylor Swift threads to crab about how they find her brand exhausting? I hope you can learn to cope. For some of us this is a blessed respite from the Swiftopia.
I don't actually hate Taylor Swift, as a musician or a person. If Debbie Gibson and Alanis Morissette had a baby and that baby's godmother was Shania Twain, that baby would grow up to be Taylor Swift. Seriously, Taylor Swift is... fine. And it's perfectly fine that every time I check the news I see the same three headlines: Trump has done something hideous (and had a new bump in the polls), another hurricane is on the way and Taylor Swift and her football boyfriend went someplace and did some goddamn thing. Everything is fine.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:33 PM on October 21 [5 favorites]
Seriously though if someone as purportedly insubstantial as Taylor Swift has already correctly identified that you’re on some bullshit, maybe you’re not the kind of deep thinker who should be determining who is and isn’t substantial
I mean, look, if by "on some bullshit" you mean "suggesting that Taylor Swift may not be that deep," then I have to posit that Taylor Swift is perhaps biased when she calls out said bullshit.
I didn't know who Sam Kriss was, or that this is evidently some kind of neocon publication, when I tried to read this article, and I would like to say for the record that we do not in fact have to hand it to him. TY
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:02 PM on October 21 [1 favorite]
I mean, look, if by "on some bullshit" you mean "suggesting that Taylor Swift may not be that deep," then I have to posit that Taylor Swift is perhaps biased when she calls out said bullshit.
I didn't know who Sam Kriss was, or that this is evidently some kind of neocon publication, when I tried to read this article, and I would like to say for the record that we do not in fact have to hand it to him. TY
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:02 PM on October 21 [1 favorite]
In the Year of Your Lord 2024, there is only one set of requirements to be a Good Music-Type Person. Four simple points, easily and rapidly assessed:
- Not a republican
- not a rapist
- not racist
- not a giant asshole to everyone they meet
...that's pretty much it.
Go Taylor, you are a Good Music-Type Person, and those who dislike you can cram it with walnuts.
posted by aramaic at 5:17 PM on October 21 [2 favorites]
- Not a republican
- not a rapist
- not racist
- not a giant asshole to everyone they meet
...that's pretty much it.
Go Taylor, you are a Good Music-Type Person, and those who dislike you can cram it with walnuts.
posted by aramaic at 5:17 PM on October 21 [2 favorites]
You're on a site that's famously full of crabby people, and some of them show up in Taylor Swift threads to crab about how they find her brand exhausting? I hope you can learn to cope. For some of us this is a blessed respite from the Swiftopia.
Metafilter: I hope you can learn to cope.
posted by ApathyGirl at 5:19 PM on October 21 [1 favorite]
Metafilter: I hope you can learn to cope.
posted by ApathyGirl at 5:19 PM on October 21 [1 favorite]
that's pretty much it.
Those are requirements for being a good person, not a good artist. I genuinely appreciate that Swift announced she's voting for Harris. That may have cost her some fans or even put her at personal risk. She seems like an OK person and her music doesn't make my ears bleed or anything. But her sheer 24/7 ubiquity and her legions of absolutely fawning, defensive fans are just a lot and people can actually dislike her for reasons that have nothing to do with sexism or jealousy or whatever other strawman you toss at them.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 7:23 PM on October 21 [1 favorite]
Those are requirements for being a good person, not a good artist. I genuinely appreciate that Swift announced she's voting for Harris. That may have cost her some fans or even put her at personal risk. She seems like an OK person and her music doesn't make my ears bleed or anything. But her sheer 24/7 ubiquity and her legions of absolutely fawning, defensive fans are just a lot and people can actually dislike her for reasons that have nothing to do with sexism or jealousy or whatever other strawman you toss at them.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 7:23 PM on October 21 [1 favorite]
I mean, haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate
posted by gingerbeer at 7:28 PM on October 21 [3 favorites]
posted by gingerbeer at 7:28 PM on October 21 [3 favorites]
Those are requirements for being a good person, not a good artist. I
That's pretty much what they said, yeah. You can't blame the artist for the fans you dislike though, what is she to do about that?
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:36 PM on October 21 [1 favorite]
That's pretty much what they said, yeah. You can't blame the artist for the fans you dislike though, what is she to do about that?
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:36 PM on October 21 [1 favorite]
I love how the classic Swiftie response to criticism of her music is "well, the writer is a sad and angry man". Lol. Classic cult technique. You've been brainwashed all for some really shitty music. This toxicity in her fans is why I engage them in real life - where there might be awkwardness if I were truthful - with "She's a really good businessperson!" Most aren't sufficiently perceptive to recognize the damning praise.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 8:05 PM on October 21 [1 favorite]
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 8:05 PM on October 21 [1 favorite]
I mean, look, if by "on some bullshit" you mean "suggesting that Taylor Swift may not be that deep," then I have to posit that Taylor Swift is perhaps biased when she calls out said bullshit.
No, it’s the practice of pitting successful women against each other as though there can’t ever be more than a handful of Approved Women. Which was a major theme of both of your comments.
posted by knobknosher at 12:10 AM on October 22 [5 favorites]
No, it’s the practice of pitting successful women against each other as though there can’t ever be more than a handful of Approved Women. Which was a major theme of both of your comments.
posted by knobknosher at 12:10 AM on October 22 [5 favorites]
I love how the classic Swiftie response to criticism of her music is "well, the writer is a sad and angry man".
I don't have any interest in Swift's music. I don't care about her as an individual. I am an old dude who listens to prog rock and industrial.
The author of this piece is a sad, angry little man, and being this contemptuous and angry about other people because they like the wrong music isn't normal. It's just an excuse to hate people you don't respect for having intetests of their own.
posted by pattern juggler at 3:55 AM on October 22 [6 favorites]
I don't have any interest in Swift's music. I don't care about her as an individual. I am an old dude who listens to prog rock and industrial.
The author of this piece is a sad, angry little man, and being this contemptuous and angry about other people because they like the wrong music isn't normal. It's just an excuse to hate people you don't respect for having intetests of their own.
posted by pattern juggler at 3:55 AM on October 22 [6 favorites]
it’s the practice of pitting successful women against each other as though there can’t ever be more than a handful of Approved Women. Which was a major theme of both of your comments.
You are mistaken. I was responding to a comment to the effect of, no one would write a piece like this about a man. I agreed, but not because a dislike of Swift is inherently sexist; rather, I think the only celebrity at the same level of fame and adulation as Swift is another woman, Beyonce, and yes, I don't see comments like this about her, and yes, it's because I think she is more obviously talented. But that's not pitting women against each other, its calling out a deflective argument as a fallacy. And further I think trying to turn that argument around to call the person who's making the argument a sexist is a way of discrediting the argument so that you don't have the deal with the substance of it, and more to ensure that anyone who does broach it is called a sexist, which no one wants. That's bullshit, and it's insane that we're having this kind of conversation about such a trivial figure, honestly.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:31 AM on October 22 [1 favorite]
You are mistaken. I was responding to a comment to the effect of, no one would write a piece like this about a man. I agreed, but not because a dislike of Swift is inherently sexist; rather, I think the only celebrity at the same level of fame and adulation as Swift is another woman, Beyonce, and yes, I don't see comments like this about her, and yes, it's because I think she is more obviously talented. But that's not pitting women against each other, its calling out a deflective argument as a fallacy. And further I think trying to turn that argument around to call the person who's making the argument a sexist is a way of discrediting the argument so that you don't have the deal with the substance of it, and more to ensure that anyone who does broach it is called a sexist, which no one wants. That's bullshit, and it's insane that we're having this kind of conversation about such a trivial figure, honestly.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:31 AM on October 22 [1 favorite]
What's the substance of the argument? I'm getting lost here. That an article wouldn't be written this way about a man, but the only reason it wouldn't be is because we don't have a famous enough male artist? 🤔
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:11 AM on October 22 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:11 AM on October 22 [1 favorite]
(She's clearly NOT a trivial figure, either.)
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:12 AM on October 22 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:12 AM on October 22 [1 favorite]
If anyone is curious, here’s a similar article written about Ed Sheeran. The author didn’t get a ticket for one of his concerts, though, so it’s much shorter.
posted by brook horse at 6:30 AM on October 22
posted by brook horse at 6:30 AM on October 22
male Taylor Swift: Tom Hanks or Ryan Gosling.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:49 AM on October 22 [1 favorite]
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:49 AM on October 22 [1 favorite]
Taylor Swift, from her domineering height, completely independent business success and obvious acumen, and adulation by masses of women, to her blackish NFL boyfriend and open contempt for Donald Trump, is the archetypal nightmare of incels and the incel movement.
And this essay is best understood as the narration of a waking incel nightmare.
Her only extant male counterpart since we seem to be lacking a current black male crossover music superstar such as Marvin Gaye, is Mick Jagger, who is also an incel nightmare.
posted by jamjam at 12:04 PM on October 22 [1 favorite]
And this essay is best understood as the narration of a waking incel nightmare.
Her only extant male counterpart since we seem to be lacking a current black male crossover music superstar such as Marvin Gaye, is Mick Jagger, who is also an incel nightmare.
posted by jamjam at 12:04 PM on October 22 [1 favorite]
I love how the classic Swiftie response to criticism of her music is "well, the writer is a sad and angry man". Lol. Classic cult technique. You've been brainwashed all for some really shitty music.
This is extremely unkind and unfounded and unwarranted. It's fine to just dislike the music and say so. FWIW the writer is obviously a sad angry man probably even to someone who likes whatever is not judged to be "really shitty music."
posted by kensington314 at 12:15 PM on October 22 [1 favorite]
This is extremely unkind and unfounded and unwarranted. It's fine to just dislike the music and say so. FWIW the writer is obviously a sad angry man probably even to someone who likes whatever is not judged to be "really shitty music."
posted by kensington314 at 12:15 PM on October 22 [1 favorite]
who is the male taylor swift
I'm not sure there's a male Taylor Swift but if so, maybe Drake? Similar ubiquity, parallel and simultaneous career trajectories, similarly disregarded by people who like wine sniffing "good" music, similar "eras" thing where they explore different genres-within-their-genre without radically changing the overall project. I think early on Drake also inspired and invited a similar level of fan engagement and theorization about his personal life. Album for album I think Taylor has a better batting average than Drake though, and no one is out here calling her a pedophile (or if so, it's probably Alex Jones or whatever), so the comparison isn't perfect.
posted by kensington314 at 12:20 PM on October 22 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure there's a male Taylor Swift but if so, maybe Drake? Similar ubiquity, parallel and simultaneous career trajectories, similarly disregarded by people who like wine sniffing "good" music, similar "eras" thing where they explore different genres-within-their-genre without radically changing the overall project. I think early on Drake also inspired and invited a similar level of fan engagement and theorization about his personal life. Album for album I think Taylor has a better batting average than Drake though, and no one is out here calling her a pedophile (or if so, it's probably Alex Jones or whatever), so the comparison isn't perfect.
posted by kensington314 at 12:20 PM on October 22 [1 favorite]
LOL I am not a Swiftie but it's obvious that author is sad and angry!
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:33 PM on October 22
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:33 PM on October 22
(Like, I don't understand the journalism thing of "person hates thing so goes to cover it") whyyyyy
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:55 PM on October 22 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:55 PM on October 22 [1 favorite]
I'm a huge fan of hating on music, like I think it's part of the joy of enjoying music is to also have strong negative opinions or even to pay very close attention to what is most stupid in your favorite music, for example, most lyrics are so, so stupid. It's a testament to the transformative power of music that it renders something so stupid so enjoyable.
The thing that loses me in essays like this is the broader ad hominem thing where it's just like "look at the hordes of idiots appreciating this uncompelling woman's shallow music." Red flags all over analysis like that, as related most obviously to gender but also just to self-awareness. You think this is dumb shit? We all like dumb shit. It's not that deep. Move on.
(Personally I don't think Taylor's music is dumb shit, I think it's kind of on the level of Chuck Berry or Bruce Springsteen in terms of elevating a specific disregarded demographic subjectivity to the level of credible art, but that's one person's opinion.)
It's similar to analysis like "look at all the mindless idiots appreciating sportsball like buffoons." okay just let some folks enjoy the aesthetic reality of human excellence for its own sake. (errr, um, for its own sake and the sake of billions in advertising dollars, but still, my point stands)
posted by kensington314 at 1:03 PM on October 22 [1 favorite]
The thing that loses me in essays like this is the broader ad hominem thing where it's just like "look at the hordes of idiots appreciating this uncompelling woman's shallow music." Red flags all over analysis like that, as related most obviously to gender but also just to self-awareness. You think this is dumb shit? We all like dumb shit. It's not that deep. Move on.
(Personally I don't think Taylor's music is dumb shit, I think it's kind of on the level of Chuck Berry or Bruce Springsteen in terms of elevating a specific disregarded demographic subjectivity to the level of credible art, but that's one person's opinion.)
It's similar to analysis like "look at all the mindless idiots appreciating sportsball like buffoons." okay just let some folks enjoy the aesthetic reality of human excellence for its own sake. (errr, um, for its own sake and the sake of billions in advertising dollars, but still, my point stands)
posted by kensington314 at 1:03 PM on October 22 [1 favorite]
I think he thinks it's deep because he's a very important person sent to cover the concert, unlike those dumb girls there who love it who went because they love it!
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:20 PM on October 22 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:20 PM on October 22 [1 favorite]
It just, like, takes so much effort to hate someone that much. I'm not a fan of Taylor Swift (except for willow which always briefly transports me to a world where TS's brand is power femme singing to butch dykes and I'm her man, like I sorta get the gaylors for 3 minutes and 41 seconds and then I listen to literally anything else she's ever sung and gone "oh :(") but I can't imagine spending this much time and effort on someone I don't like. But I'm not a professional hater (I have friends who self describe as such) so this might be a theory of mind thing.
I did manage to hold a grudge against Ed Sheeran for 2 years because his concert in my city turned a 5 minute drive home into a 45 minute one. But that was the sort of thing I gave 10 minutes of grousing to a few times a year and I don't think it added up to this many words.
posted by brook horse at 2:17 PM on October 22
I did manage to hold a grudge against Ed Sheeran for 2 years because his concert in my city turned a 5 minute drive home into a 45 minute one. But that was the sort of thing I gave 10 minutes of grousing to a few times a year and I don't think it added up to this many words.
posted by brook horse at 2:17 PM on October 22
There isn't a male Taylor Swift because the way celebrity is constituted doesn't generate male Taylor Swifts - you would need a male pop artist whose music was intensely emotionally engaging to a massive percentage of young men who idolized, dressed like and quoted from the singer, and it would mostly be positive identification, so the male fans would, for instance, squee over the star's girlfriends and view them positively as individuals (at least until they broke the star's heart!!!) and would view them from a romantic standpoint rather than a fuckability/"is she a slut or just really sexy" standpoint. Taylor Swift fandom can be toxic and competitive, but it's very substantially positive, emotion-focused, sharing-focused, etc. It would be too gay, you know, to feel like that if you were a straight guy.
What's key about both Swift and Beyonce is that they are uniting/inspiring figures - fans may complete to be the best fan, or may bully people they perceive as "attacking" the star, but there's a positive personal idealization/imitation at the core that persists over time and isn't just a short-lived trend (Cyndi Lauper and Boy George seem to have inspired similar devotion but it didn't last past the peak of their fame.)
To the extent that there has been a male Taylor Swift, it might be Morrissey, before we all realized that he was a huge racist, and there his fan base was substantially GLBTQ folks and people from GLBTQ-friendly social scenes, so not really straight men interacting with stars in a Swiftian way. But there was the same identification and emotionality.
posted by Frowner at 2:19 PM on October 22 [4 favorites]
What's key about both Swift and Beyonce is that they are uniting/inspiring figures - fans may complete to be the best fan, or may bully people they perceive as "attacking" the star, but there's a positive personal idealization/imitation at the core that persists over time and isn't just a short-lived trend (Cyndi Lauper and Boy George seem to have inspired similar devotion but it didn't last past the peak of their fame.)
To the extent that there has been a male Taylor Swift, it might be Morrissey, before we all realized that he was a huge racist, and there his fan base was substantially GLBTQ folks and people from GLBTQ-friendly social scenes, so not really straight men interacting with stars in a Swiftian way. But there was the same identification and emotionality.
posted by Frowner at 2:19 PM on October 22 [4 favorites]
I mean, if we extend past pop artist and just focus on the social phenomenon as described, then would Joe Rogan be the male Taylor Swift?
posted by brook horse at 2:24 PM on October 22 [1 favorite]
posted by brook horse at 2:24 PM on October 22 [1 favorite]
I think it depends on how you theorize the star - for me, I think of "The Star" as being about warm emotion and identification with the star and their feelings, whereas I think the Rogan/Tate/etc types are about a kind of aggressive identification, where you see the "star" as crushing/raping the people you'd like to crush and rape. I genuinely hope that the male equivalent of squeeing about boyfriends isn't squeeing about how great it is that these far right figures incite violence against the weak.
posted by Frowner at 2:27 PM on October 22
posted by Frowner at 2:27 PM on October 22
Hmm, good point. Hopefully this doesn't date me too much (and isn't too exclusively Midwest a phenomenon) but I remember a time in high school where Bear Grylls fit this description. Obviously never as big as Swift, but I knew a number of guys who acted this way about him.
posted by brook horse at 2:37 PM on October 22
posted by brook horse at 2:37 PM on October 22
But almost as soon as the first concert in Glendale, Arizona, was over, people started reporting something weird happening to their memories. You can read their accounts online.
Ah yes. The "random uncited people on the internet are saying..." journalism technique.
"SOMEONE NEEDED A QUOTE FOR THE PAPER SO I TOLD THEM ALL MEN WERE RAPISTS. SSSSS..."
posted by AlSweigart at 3:15 PM on October 22 [3 favorites]
Ah yes. The "random uncited people on the internet are saying..." journalism technique.
"SOMEONE NEEDED A QUOTE FOR THE PAPER SO I TOLD THEM ALL MEN WERE RAPISTS. SSSSS..."
posted by AlSweigart at 3:15 PM on October 22 [3 favorites]
It's almost like you're missing the point intentionally. Like you're brainwashed. In a cult. Which you are.
LMAO dude cmon
posted by knobknosher at 11:32 PM on October 22 [3 favorites]
LMAO dude cmon
posted by knobknosher at 11:32 PM on October 22 [3 favorites]
It's almost like you're missing the point intentionally. Like you're brainwashed. In a cult. Which you are.
Maybe instead of accusing other people of being in a cult for not agreeing with your musical taste, you might examine what it is about a pop star and her fandom you find so offensive, or why it is so important to you that random women on the internet validate your opinion.
posted by pattern juggler at 3:44 AM on October 23 [2 favorites]
Maybe instead of accusing other people of being in a cult for not agreeing with your musical taste, you might examine what it is about a pop star and her fandom you find so offensive, or why it is so important to you that random women on the internet validate your opinion.
posted by pattern juggler at 3:44 AM on October 23 [2 favorites]
Mod note: comment removed, along with a couple of responses, one left up for context.
DeepSeaHaggis, cease accusations about others being in a cult. If that behavior doesn’t stop, we may have to start giving timeouts.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:46 AM on October 23
DeepSeaHaggis, cease accusations about others being in a cult. If that behavior doesn’t stop, we may have to start giving timeouts.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:46 AM on October 23
IMO, Taylor Swift's music is free for critical public admonition (and not just because Metafilter is crabby and it's a free country or whatever) but because she, in her lyrics, feels free to criticize and dismiss other entire genres of music, and to speak back directly at criticism of her music.
I actually think Mean would have been a great song if she'd left the bridge out where she stoops down to her critic's level.
She also directly names artists she supports, including Patti Smith, James Taylor, Tim McGraw, and Charlie Puth.
Supposedly she also claps back at her fans in lyrics (including mondegreen "lonely Starbucks lovers"), but that's far more abstract in my opinion.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:18 PM on October 23
I actually think Mean would have been a great song if she'd left the bridge out where she stoops down to her critic's level.
She also directly names artists she supports, including Patti Smith, James Taylor, Tim McGraw, and Charlie Puth.
Supposedly she also claps back at her fans in lyrics (including mondegreen "lonely Starbucks lovers"), but that's far more abstract in my opinion.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:18 PM on October 23
Sure, I have no problem with criticizing Swift's music. I find her music mildly unpleasant to listen to. But I am not on board with people insulting her listeners. There's a difference between ragging on Oasis for being an obnoxious band with bad songs, and saying Oasis fans are all Brexiters (to reference a relatively recent example.)
There is also the anger level. I genuinely cannot stand certain musical groups' output (Counting Crows, Guns N' Roses, Imagine Dragons, etc.) But I am not furious at their fans or suggesting their something deeply wrong with their inner lives. I don't think that those shitty bands are leading cults or destroying civilization or whatever the frothing over Swift has been. As much as I do not wish to ever hear Mr. Jones or Sweet Child o' Mine again, I'm not genuinely angry about them.
It is hard to look at the levels of hostility directed toward the performer and her fans and not seeing it as resulting from some kind of profound misogyny.
posted by pattern juggler at 1:48 PM on October 23 [4 favorites]
There is also the anger level. I genuinely cannot stand certain musical groups' output (Counting Crows, Guns N' Roses, Imagine Dragons, etc.) But I am not furious at their fans or suggesting their something deeply wrong with their inner lives. I don't think that those shitty bands are leading cults or destroying civilization or whatever the frothing over Swift has been. As much as I do not wish to ever hear Mr. Jones or Sweet Child o' Mine again, I'm not genuinely angry about them.
It is hard to look at the levels of hostility directed toward the performer and her fans and not seeing it as resulting from some kind of profound misogyny.
posted by pattern juggler at 1:48 PM on October 23 [4 favorites]
IMO, Taylor Swift's music is free for critical public admonition (and not just because Metafilter is crabby and it's a free country or whatever) but because she, in her lyrics , feels free to criticize and dismiss other entire genres of music, and to speak back directly at criticism of her music.
I actually think Mean would have been a great song if she'd left the bridge out where she stoops down to her critic's level.
People can criticize her music regardless, although there are better and worse ways to do that and some of the ways of doing that have little or negative social value (like directly pitting her against other women who perform music in totally different genres but who also happen to be women, for example).
These songs are pretty bad examples of what you're claiming as "criticizing and dismissing" other music, though. In the first song she says that she doesn't like acid rock. Not that it like totally sucks, she just...doesn't like it but was pretending to like it in the context of a romantic relationship that has ended. Not even a criticism, much less a dismissal -- she doesn't like it. In the second song she references "indie music that's much cooler than mine" which is again not a criticism or dismissal of indie music unless you read into it pretty hard. It's more of a mildly self-deprecating jab at another former romantic partner who thinks the music he listens to is cooler than hers. Going from that to "any criticism of her music is warranted and acceptable because she started it" is a strange argument.
The bridge in Mean is, well, mean. (It is also from about 14 years ago). But I think there's a strong double standard at play, where a woman saying that she doesn't always wish fairy dust and happiness on the people who are mean to her somehow justifies the bad treatment she was already getting. That's a pretty circular argument and not one I'm inclined to take seriously given how abysmally toxic the atmosphere was for young women in 2010. Not saying it's perfect now, but we've gone leaps and bounds away from absolutely disgusting treatment of famous women in the press that used to be standard. Remember in 2007 when Britney Spears was obviously having some kind of serious mental health issue and was essentially being tortured by the press and mocked endlessly for it? That was the atmosphere in which Taylor Swift wrote these mean lyrics--about a general "you," not even about anyone specific. I'm inclined to say big fucking whoop. Women are allowed to be mad and express that sometimes.
I think she's far from perfect, but there absolutely is a lot of bullshit out there in the way she's criticized and treated and her getting pissed off about it does not then make it okay.
posted by knobknosher at 3:36 PM on October 23 [2 favorites]
I actually think Mean would have been a great song if she'd left the bridge out where she stoops down to her critic's level.
People can criticize her music regardless, although there are better and worse ways to do that and some of the ways of doing that have little or negative social value (like directly pitting her against other women who perform music in totally different genres but who also happen to be women, for example).
These songs are pretty bad examples of what you're claiming as "criticizing and dismissing" other music, though. In the first song she says that she doesn't like acid rock. Not that it like totally sucks, she just...doesn't like it but was pretending to like it in the context of a romantic relationship that has ended. Not even a criticism, much less a dismissal -- she doesn't like it. In the second song she references "indie music that's much cooler than mine" which is again not a criticism or dismissal of indie music unless you read into it pretty hard. It's more of a mildly self-deprecating jab at another former romantic partner who thinks the music he listens to is cooler than hers. Going from that to "any criticism of her music is warranted and acceptable because she started it" is a strange argument.
The bridge in Mean is, well, mean. (It is also from about 14 years ago). But I think there's a strong double standard at play, where a woman saying that she doesn't always wish fairy dust and happiness on the people who are mean to her somehow justifies the bad treatment she was already getting. That's a pretty circular argument and not one I'm inclined to take seriously given how abysmally toxic the atmosphere was for young women in 2010. Not saying it's perfect now, but we've gone leaps and bounds away from absolutely disgusting treatment of famous women in the press that used to be standard. Remember in 2007 when Britney Spears was obviously having some kind of serious mental health issue and was essentially being tortured by the press and mocked endlessly for it? That was the atmosphere in which Taylor Swift wrote these mean lyrics--about a general "you," not even about anyone specific. I'm inclined to say big fucking whoop. Women are allowed to be mad and express that sometimes.
I think she's far from perfect, but there absolutely is a lot of bullshit out there in the way she's criticized and treated and her getting pissed off about it does not then make it okay.
posted by knobknosher at 3:36 PM on October 23 [2 favorites]
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